Allah made it look like Jesus died, but he let someone die in Jesus' place to save Jesus according to the Quran. Isn't that a form of substitutionary death? This is something some Muslims tell me God doesn't do; so, I am confused about this.
The Quran states that the unbelievers plot and scheme with deception but Allah is the "best of deceivers" Some English translations state "the best of planners," in context, however, Allah does best what the unbelievers were doing which was deceiving; so, is Allah to blame for starting Christianity or did he know his deception would cause the birth of a religion that Islam could not comprehend or overcome? For instance, Christianity, IMO, has always been bigger, better and stronger than Islam and always will be!
Did Allah start Christianty?
Moderator: Moderators
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Burninglight
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Burninglight
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Post #471
What difference does it make whether He said in the OT or the NT. In the OT, He said it to David. Jesus is the fulfillment of David's throne. David means "Beloved of God." God called Jesus His "Beloved Son."HaLi8993 wrote: Burninglight
QUOTE: "Yes, God did say Jesus is His son. Allaah told Muhammad that he sent the torah for him to believe and follow. Muhammad referred to it often. The idea of the Bible being corrupted was never Muhammad's idea."
ANSWER: Where does God say that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God's son in the Old Testament? Have you any evidence that God wanted such a thing from Muhammad (peace be upon him). Who's idea was it?? When one looks into History it becomes very clear how the Bible we have today has been changed and revised on countless occasions.
Muslims say the OT is corrupted too. If you believed it weren't, you wouldn't recognize Muhammad, because the unchanged torah tells that no prophet comes out of Ishmael and that Ishmael was no prophet. Since Islam claims Muhammad a descendant of Ishmael, Muhammad is not prophet.
Muhammad was a very good false prophet. I would say the best of false prophets just as his god is the "The best of Deceivers." Allaah cannot be trusted. Even Abu Bakr said, no one is safe from the Makr (Deception) of Allaah. He said that he wouldn't trust Allaah if he had one foot in paradise and one on earth. So, it really and truly beats me why you want to be a slave to the moon god or moon splitting god who is not recognized by the Jews or Christians as anyone to be concerned about.
By the way, there is evidence that the Quran has been change and compromised too. Starting with Uthman who destroyed the original evidence. I believe that God preserved the Bible, because that was the first word given. Anything that doesn't confirm it, like the Quran was supposed to do, is a lie.
Did you say you were born Muslim or did you convert or revert? If you don't mind, tell me how you became a Muslim
Post #472
Burninglight
QUOTE: "What difference does it make whether He said in the OT or the NT. In the OT, He said it to David. Jesus is the fulfillment of David's throne. David means "Beloved of God." God called Jesus His "Beloved Son."
ANSWER: It makes a huge difference as Jesus (peace be upon him) came to fulfill the laws of the Old Testament, hence if there is no mention of him being the Son of God in the OT, how can this be possible?, this would mean that the NT would have been made up and changed because the concept of trinity never existed in the OT, so then who authorizes any person to add to the religion of God and change the laws and beliefs commanded to be followed by Him?
QUOTE: "Muslims say the OT is corrupted too. If you believed it weren't, you wouldn't recognize Muhammad, because the unchanged torah tells that no prophet comes out of Ishmael and that Ishmael was no prophet. Since Islam claims Muhammad a descendant of Ishmael, Muhammad is not prophet"
ANSWER: Can you give me some evidence please, this is not true, both parties have deliberately distorted history and Biblical scripture in order to hide the legitimacy of Prophet Ishmael (may the blessings of God be upon him) as the first born son of Prophet Abraham as well as his rights as the first born son which is supported by the very Bible of the Christians and the Jews, all for the purpose of their own agenda's. This is a huge topic in itself however if you wish we can go into detail with this topic.
QUOTE: "Muhammad was a very good false prophet. I would say the best of false prophets just as his god is the "The best of Deceivers." Allaah cannot be trusted. Even Abu Bakr said, no one is safe from the Makr (Deception) of Allaah. He said that he wouldn't trust Allaah if he had one foot in paradise and one on earth. So, it really and truly beats me why you want to be a slave to the moon god or moon splitting god who is not recognized by the Jews or Christians as anyone to be concerned about."
ANSWER: Lol, Burninglight I would like to see some evidence for your claims from our sources instead of Anti-Islamic sources you are highly fond of, it would be more beneficial for you to look into the origins of the Pagonistic roots of the trinity concept instead of accusing Islam of such things that have no basis. Lol
QUOTE: "By the way, there is evidence that the Quran has been change and compromised too. Starting with Uthman who destroyed the original evidence. I believe that God preserved the Bible, because that was the first word given. Anything that doesn't confirm it, like the Quran was supposed to do, is a lie"
ANSWER: This isn't evidence at all as proven to you by myself as well as others on many instances, how can the Bible be preserved when it has clearly been changed and there exists many contradictions within its pages. I think according to my understanding anything that doesn't conform to your beliefs is considered a lie. Lol
QUOTE: "Did you say you were born Muslim or did you convert or revert? If you don't mind, tell me how you became a Muslim"
ANSWER: Sorry, I don't disclose any personal information over the Internet. Hope you understand.
.
QUOTE: "What difference does it make whether He said in the OT or the NT. In the OT, He said it to David. Jesus is the fulfillment of David's throne. David means "Beloved of God." God called Jesus His "Beloved Son."
ANSWER: It makes a huge difference as Jesus (peace be upon him) came to fulfill the laws of the Old Testament, hence if there is no mention of him being the Son of God in the OT, how can this be possible?, this would mean that the NT would have been made up and changed because the concept of trinity never existed in the OT, so then who authorizes any person to add to the religion of God and change the laws and beliefs commanded to be followed by Him?
QUOTE: "Muslims say the OT is corrupted too. If you believed it weren't, you wouldn't recognize Muhammad, because the unchanged torah tells that no prophet comes out of Ishmael and that Ishmael was no prophet. Since Islam claims Muhammad a descendant of Ishmael, Muhammad is not prophet"
ANSWER: Can you give me some evidence please, this is not true, both parties have deliberately distorted history and Biblical scripture in order to hide the legitimacy of Prophet Ishmael (may the blessings of God be upon him) as the first born son of Prophet Abraham as well as his rights as the first born son which is supported by the very Bible of the Christians and the Jews, all for the purpose of their own agenda's. This is a huge topic in itself however if you wish we can go into detail with this topic.
QUOTE: "Muhammad was a very good false prophet. I would say the best of false prophets just as his god is the "The best of Deceivers." Allaah cannot be trusted. Even Abu Bakr said, no one is safe from the Makr (Deception) of Allaah. He said that he wouldn't trust Allaah if he had one foot in paradise and one on earth. So, it really and truly beats me why you want to be a slave to the moon god or moon splitting god who is not recognized by the Jews or Christians as anyone to be concerned about."
ANSWER: Lol, Burninglight I would like to see some evidence for your claims from our sources instead of Anti-Islamic sources you are highly fond of, it would be more beneficial for you to look into the origins of the Pagonistic roots of the trinity concept instead of accusing Islam of such things that have no basis. Lol
QUOTE: "By the way, there is evidence that the Quran has been change and compromised too. Starting with Uthman who destroyed the original evidence. I believe that God preserved the Bible, because that was the first word given. Anything that doesn't confirm it, like the Quran was supposed to do, is a lie"
ANSWER: This isn't evidence at all as proven to you by myself as well as others on many instances, how can the Bible be preserved when it has clearly been changed and there exists many contradictions within its pages. I think according to my understanding anything that doesn't conform to your beliefs is considered a lie. Lol
QUOTE: "Did you say you were born Muslim or did you convert or revert? If you don't mind, tell me how you became a Muslim"
ANSWER: Sorry, I don't disclose any personal information over the Internet. Hope you understand.
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Burninglight
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- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:40 am
Post #473
Well, if it makes a huge difference to you, it has been explained how it is in the OT through David and Isaiah 9:6 (A son is given who will be called mighty God...) There is no evidence that Biblical scholars don't know about changes in the Bible. We can go back and make correction because unlike the Quran, we didn't burn the thousands of different copies like Uthman did the original Qurans.HaLi8993 wrote: Burninglight
QUOTE: "What difference does it make whether He said in the OT or the NT. In the OT, He said it to David. Jesus is the fulfillment of David's throne. David means "Beloved of God." God called Jesus His "Beloved Son."
ANSWER: It makes a huge difference as Jesus (peace be upon him) came to fulfill the laws of the Old Testament, hence if there is no mention of him being the Son of God in the OT, how can this be possible?, this would mean that the NT would have been made up and changed because the concept of trinity never existed in the OT, so then who authorizes any person to add to the religion of God and change the laws and beliefs commanded to be followed by Him?
QUOTE: "Muslims say the OT is corrupted too. If you believed it weren't, you wouldn't recognize Muhammad, because the unchanged torah tells that no prophet comes out of Ishmael and that Ishmael was no prophet. Since Islam claims Muhammad a descendant of Ishmael, Muhammad is not prophet"
ANSWER: Can you give me some evidence please, this is not true, both parties have deliberately distorted history and Biblical scripture in order to hide the legitimacy of Prophet Ishmael (may the blessings of God be upon him) as the first born son of Prophet Abraham as well as his rights as the first born son which is supported by the very Bible of the Christians and the Jews, all for the purpose of their own agenda's. This is a huge topic in itself however if you wish we can go into detail with this topic.
QUOTE: "Muhammad was a very good false prophet. I would say the best of false prophets just as his god is the "The best of Deceivers." Allaah cannot be trusted. Even Abu Bakr said, no one is safe from the Makr (Deception) of Allaah. He said that he wouldn't trust Allaah if he had one foot in paradise and one on earth. So, it really and truly beats me why you want to be a slave to the moon god or moon splitting god who is not recognized by the Jews or Christians as anyone to be concerned about."
ANSWER: Lol, Burninglight I would like to see some evidence for your claims from our sources instead of Anti-Islamic sources you are highly fond of, it would be more beneficial for you to look into the origins of the Pagonistic roots of the trinity concept instead of accusing Islam of such things that have no basis. Lol
QUOTE: "By the way, there is evidence that the Quran has been change and compromised too. Starting with Uthman who destroyed the original evidence. I believe that God preserved the Bible, because that was the first word given. Anything that doesn't confirm it, like the Quran was supposed to do, is a lie"
ANSWER: This isn't evidence at all as proven to you by myself as well as others on many instances, how can the Bible be preserved when it has clearly been changed and there exists many contradictions within its pages. I think according to my understanding anything that doesn't conform to your beliefs is considered a lie. Lol
QUOTE: "Did you say you were born Muslim or did you convert or revert? If you don't mind, tell me how you became a Muslim"
ANSWER: Sorry, I don't disclose any personal information over the Internet. Hope you understand.
The Jews made copies and the Greek Christians made copies. We can compare and contrast, but both copies say that Ishmael was blessed by God but he was not the child of promise such as Isaac. Muhammad doesn't have the correct ancestral line to be a prophet because Ishmael was not a prophet. God never spoke to Ishmael son of the slave woman. God told Hagar that ishmael would be strong and against every man and every man against him. Don't we see that today with the Arab world. Islam is trying to claim the birth right blessing God place on Isaac the son of the free woman on Ishmael through Muhammad, and it ain't happening no matter how many Muslim try to twist and turn the Scriptures. We Christians know Satan's devices. We know he is the father of lies. We know that islam's Allah is "The Best of Deceivers" and we are watching carefully.
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Goat
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Post #474
Really?? I mean, people made claims in God's name. Can you show that the author of the Gospel of John told the truth?Burninglight wrote: Yes, God did say Jesus is His son. Allaah told Muhammad that he sent the torah for him to believe and follow. Muhammad referred to it often. The idea of the Bible being corrupted was never Muhammad's idea.
I mean, the author of the Gospel of JOhn is NOT God, you know.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
Steven Novella
Steven Novella
Post #475
Burninglight
QUOTE: "Well, if it makes a huge difference to you, it has been explained how it is in the OT through David and Isaiah 9:6 (A son is given who will be called mighty God...) There is no evidence that Biblical scholars don't know about changes in the Bible. We can go back and make correction because unlike the Quran, we didn't burn the thousands of different copies like Uthman did the original Qurans"
ANSWER: Isaiah 9:6-7
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God (EL Gibor), The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with justice and righteousness from hence forth even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this"
This verse does not mean that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God Himself. Son of God in Hebrew means servant of God.
It was common in the old Jewish culture that people used to be named "Godly" names. Many people were called "God" before Jesus (peace be upon him) existed. This is a perfect example of how misleading and deceiving tactics are used to define the deity of Jesus (peace be upon him) for example:
Psalm 82:6 "I said, 'You are "gods" (Elohim; plural to El); you are all sons of the Most High.' " "gods" here in Hebrew is "Elohim", which is plural of "EL". It is the same exact thing as "EL" used for Jesus in
Isaiah 9:6, since "gods" is a combination of several "EL"s, for someone to be called "god" or "God" in the Bible it wouldn't make him GOD Almighty Himself, the LORD or Jehovah. I also want to point out that any "Son of GOD" in the Bible is a "god" or "God".
So in your opinion it is fine to make changes and corrections to God's scriptures? You have no evidence for your claim about Uthman lol, you just want to believe this is true, how could he of burnt the original Quran, when the Quran was memorized in the hearts of men? If you were to throw all the Quran's in the sea it still wouldn't change anything. Nothing would be lost cause it is a miracle and a promised preserved book from God.
QUOTE: "The Jews made copies and the Greek Christians made copies. We can compare and contrast, but both copies say that Ishmael was blessed by God but he was not the child of promise such as Isaac. Muhammad doesn't have the correct ancestral line to be a prophet because Ishmael was not a prophet. God never spoke to Ishmael son of the slave woman. God told Hagar that ishmael would be strong and against every man and every man against him. Don't we see that today with the Arab world. Islam is trying to claim the birth right blessing God place on Isaac the son of the free woman on Ishmael through Muhammad, and it ain't happening no matter how many Muslim try to twist and turn the Scriptures. We Christians know Satan's devices. We know he is the father of lies. We know that islam's Allah is "The Best of Deceivers" and we are watching carefully"
ANSWER: Ismael was a Prophet, I would very much like to compare and contrast, can you forward some evidence. Ok let's discuss this in detail are you up for this?
In Genesis 16:3 it is very clear that Abrahim was married to Hagar
So after Abrahim had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. (From the NIV Bible, Genesis 16:3)
To contend that only Isaac, the one that was born to Sarah was a son is going against biblical passages, it is evident that Ishmael never lost his status as a son, not even after the birth of Isaac. If Ishmael had lost the status, the Lord would not have used the word sons in the following verse.
Genesis 25:9:
"Then his sons Isaac and Ishmael, buried him (Abraham) in the cave of Machpelah."
Furthermore to claim that because Ishmael was born to a handmaid he would qualify as a seed or a descendant of Abraham, but not as a son is nullified because marriage contracts were legal in the days of Abraham and the child born of a handmaid or slave girl would have the same status as one born to the wife, even if the wife had a child of her own later.
For example:
When one traces the maternal side of the children of Israel, Genesis tells us that Jacob had four wives. He married Leah, Rachel, a slave-girl Bilhah, and another slave-girl Zilpah. From these four wives came the twelve Children of Israel: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, Benjamin, Dan, Naptali, Gad and Asher. All twelve of these children make up the Israelites and are all referred as a combined group. Four of the twelve children (Gad, Dan, Naphtali and Asher) were sons of the slave-girls. Thus, it follows that about one third of all Israelis are children of slave-girls! Will a third of all Jews stand up and say they are illegitimate? Certainly Not!
Moreover, further evidence that the Bible clearly includes the slave-children as part of the combined group of Israelis is the Bible's tracking of their genealogy in (1 Chronicles 5:18; 1 Chronicles 7:12, 13, 30).
We are also told that the children of Asher were leading princes. "All these were descendants of Asher, heads of families, picked men of ability, leading princes."
Do you want to continue....Lol
QUOTE: "Well, if it makes a huge difference to you, it has been explained how it is in the OT through David and Isaiah 9:6 (A son is given who will be called mighty God...) There is no evidence that Biblical scholars don't know about changes in the Bible. We can go back and make correction because unlike the Quran, we didn't burn the thousands of different copies like Uthman did the original Qurans"
ANSWER: Isaiah 9:6-7
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God (EL Gibor), The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with justice and righteousness from hence forth even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this"
This verse does not mean that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God Himself. Son of God in Hebrew means servant of God.
It was common in the old Jewish culture that people used to be named "Godly" names. Many people were called "God" before Jesus (peace be upon him) existed. This is a perfect example of how misleading and deceiving tactics are used to define the deity of Jesus (peace be upon him) for example:
Psalm 82:6 "I said, 'You are "gods" (Elohim; plural to El); you are all sons of the Most High.' " "gods" here in Hebrew is "Elohim", which is plural of "EL". It is the same exact thing as "EL" used for Jesus in
Isaiah 9:6, since "gods" is a combination of several "EL"s, for someone to be called "god" or "God" in the Bible it wouldn't make him GOD Almighty Himself, the LORD or Jehovah. I also want to point out that any "Son of GOD" in the Bible is a "god" or "God".
So in your opinion it is fine to make changes and corrections to God's scriptures? You have no evidence for your claim about Uthman lol, you just want to believe this is true, how could he of burnt the original Quran, when the Quran was memorized in the hearts of men? If you were to throw all the Quran's in the sea it still wouldn't change anything. Nothing would be lost cause it is a miracle and a promised preserved book from God.
QUOTE: "The Jews made copies and the Greek Christians made copies. We can compare and contrast, but both copies say that Ishmael was blessed by God but he was not the child of promise such as Isaac. Muhammad doesn't have the correct ancestral line to be a prophet because Ishmael was not a prophet. God never spoke to Ishmael son of the slave woman. God told Hagar that ishmael would be strong and against every man and every man against him. Don't we see that today with the Arab world. Islam is trying to claim the birth right blessing God place on Isaac the son of the free woman on Ishmael through Muhammad, and it ain't happening no matter how many Muslim try to twist and turn the Scriptures. We Christians know Satan's devices. We know he is the father of lies. We know that islam's Allah is "The Best of Deceivers" and we are watching carefully"
ANSWER: Ismael was a Prophet, I would very much like to compare and contrast, can you forward some evidence. Ok let's discuss this in detail are you up for this?
In Genesis 16:3 it is very clear that Abrahim was married to Hagar
So after Abrahim had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. (From the NIV Bible, Genesis 16:3)
To contend that only Isaac, the one that was born to Sarah was a son is going against biblical passages, it is evident that Ishmael never lost his status as a son, not even after the birth of Isaac. If Ishmael had lost the status, the Lord would not have used the word sons in the following verse.
Genesis 25:9:
"Then his sons Isaac and Ishmael, buried him (Abraham) in the cave of Machpelah."
Furthermore to claim that because Ishmael was born to a handmaid he would qualify as a seed or a descendant of Abraham, but not as a son is nullified because marriage contracts were legal in the days of Abraham and the child born of a handmaid or slave girl would have the same status as one born to the wife, even if the wife had a child of her own later.
For example:
When one traces the maternal side of the children of Israel, Genesis tells us that Jacob had four wives. He married Leah, Rachel, a slave-girl Bilhah, and another slave-girl Zilpah. From these four wives came the twelve Children of Israel: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, Benjamin, Dan, Naptali, Gad and Asher. All twelve of these children make up the Israelites and are all referred as a combined group. Four of the twelve children (Gad, Dan, Naphtali and Asher) were sons of the slave-girls. Thus, it follows that about one third of all Israelis are children of slave-girls! Will a third of all Jews stand up and say they are illegitimate? Certainly Not!
Moreover, further evidence that the Bible clearly includes the slave-children as part of the combined group of Israelis is the Bible's tracking of their genealogy in (1 Chronicles 5:18; 1 Chronicles 7:12, 13, 30).
We are also told that the children of Asher were leading princes. "All these were descendants of Asher, heads of families, picked men of ability, leading princes."
Do you want to continue....Lol
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Burninglight
- Guru
- Posts: 1202
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:40 am
Post #476
I don't mind if you continue, but before you do, comprehend what is being said by me and read carefully. You are reading into Bible passages things that are not there and even into my own words. Where did I say ishmael was not a son? You are basing your argument on what I didn't say. Maybe you do this in an attempt to win an argument, but anyone can see this.HaLi8993 wrote: Burninglight
QUOTE: "Well, if it makes a huge difference to you, it has been explained how it is in the OT through David and Isaiah 9:6 (A son is given who will be called mighty God...) There is no evidence that Biblical scholars don't know about changes in the Bible. We can go back and make correction because unlike the Quran, we didn't burn the thousands of different copies like Uthman did the original Qurans"
ANSWER: Isaiah 9:6-7
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God (EL Gibor), The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with justice and righteousness from hence forth even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this"
This verse does not mean that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God Himself. Son of God in Hebrew means servant of God.
It was common in the old Jewish culture that people used to be named "Godly" names. Many people were called "God" before Jesus (peace be upon him) existed. This is a perfect example of how misleading and deceiving tactics are used to define the deity of Jesus (peace be upon him) for example:
Psalm 82:6 "I said, 'You are "gods" (Elohim; plural to El); you are all sons of the Most High.' " "gods" here in Hebrew is "Elohim", which is plural of "EL". It is the same exact thing as "EL" used for Jesus in
Isaiah 9:6, since "gods" is a combination of several "EL"s, for someone to be called "god" or "God" in the Bible it wouldn't make him GOD Almighty Himself, the LORD or Jehovah. I also want to point out that any "Son of GOD" in the Bible is a "god" or "God".
So in your opinion it is fine to make changes and corrections to God's scriptures? You have no evidence for your claim about Uthman lol, you just want to believe this is true, how could he of burnt the original Quran, when the Quran was memorized in the hearts of men? If you were to throw all the Quran's in the sea it still wouldn't change anything. Nothing would be lost cause it is a miracle and a promised preserved book from God.
QUOTE: "The Jews made copies and the Greek Christians made copies. We can compare and contrast, but both copies say that Ishmael was blessed by God but he was not the child of promise such as Isaac. Muhammad doesn't have the correct ancestral line to be a prophet because Ishmael was not a prophet. God never spoke to Ishmael son of the slave woman. God told Hagar that ishmael would be strong and against every man and every man against him. Don't we see that today with the Arab world. Islam is trying to claim the birth right blessing God place on Isaac the son of the free woman on Ishmael through Muhammad, and it ain't happening no matter how many Muslim try to twist and turn the Scriptures. We Christians know Satan's devices. We know he is the father of lies. We know that islam's Allah is "The Best of Deceivers" and we are watching carefully"
ANSWER: Ismael was a Prophet, I would very much like to compare and contrast, can you forward some evidence. Ok let's discuss this in detail are you up for this?
In Genesis 16:3 it is very clear that Abrahim was married to Hagar
So after Abrahim had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. (From the NIV Bible, Genesis 16:3)
To contend that only Isaac, the one that was born to Sarah was a son is going against biblical passages, it is evident that Ishmael never lost his status as a son, not even after the birth of Isaac. If Ishmael had lost the status, the Lord would not have used the word sons in the following verse.
Genesis 25:9:
"Then his sons Isaac and Ishmael, buried him (Abraham) in the cave of Machpelah."
Furthermore to claim that because Ishmael was born to a handmaid he would qualify as a seed or a descendant of Abraham, but not as a son is nullified because marriage contracts were legal in the days of Abraham and the child born of a handmaid or slave girl would have the same status as one born to the wife, even if the wife had a child of her own later.
For example:
When one traces the maternal side of the children of Israel, Genesis tells us that Jacob had four wives. He married Leah, Rachel, a slave-girl Bilhah, and another slave-girl Zilpah. From these four wives came the twelve Children of Israel: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, Benjamin, Dan, Naptali, Gad and Asher. All twelve of these children make up the Israelites and are all referred as a combined group. Four of the twelve children (Gad, Dan, Naphtali and Asher) were sons of the slave-girls. Thus, it follows that about one third of all Israelis are children of slave-girls! Will a third of all Jews stand up and say they are illegitimate? Certainly Not!
Moreover, further evidence that the Bible clearly includes the slave-children as part of the combined group of Israelis is the Bible's tracking of their genealogy in (1 Chronicles 5:18; 1 Chronicles 7:12, 13, 30).
We are also told that the children of Asher were leading princes. "All these were descendants of Asher, heads of families, picked men of ability, leading princes."
Do you want to continue....Lol
Sarah told Abraham this woman (Hagar) will not have part of the inheritance with my son send her away. Hagar was Sarah's slave or handmaid so she had the right to fire her. Sarah only gave Hagar to Abraham for one purpose; that was to bear him a child for Sarah, because she was barren at the time. Hagar wasn't Abraham's pick for a wife. Her sole purpose was to be a surrogate mother for Sarah. When Hagar fired her for her lol pride, Abraham sent her away at God's command.
God said I will bless him but the fulfillment of prophecy will be through Isaac not Ishmael. I repeat "NOT ISHMAEL" I know God includes slaves in His promises, but that was not the case for Ishmael, and it couldn't be clearer. He doesn't always include slaves, but does make exceptions which Ishmael was not!
Listen carefully and you will see how the OT and NT work together as God's plan. God told Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac to God. Isaac was Abraham's only son of promise that doesn't mean Ishmael wasn't his son, but Ishmael was out of the picture completely and prophetically. He was a blessed son that is all, but not the seed of promise. Jesus is a descendant of Isaac not Ishmael. Abraham was to sacrifice Isaac. God didn't tell Abraham to do something He wouldn't do. Isaac on the altar of sacrifice was a type and shadow of God offering up Jesus as a sacrifice for our redemption on the cross.
Now lets move on to the time of Moses. If you recall the Passover, this is were a lamb was sacrificed and the blood placed on the door post. If the blood was there the first born was spared from the death angel. This is another shadow and type. Jesus is the lamb of God. There is no remission of sin without the shedding of Christ's blood to be placed on the door posts of our hearts and soul.
After the children of Israel escaped they thirsted and God told Moses to smite the rock and out of it came water. This represents Jesus the Rock of our salvation. When He was smitten on the cross out of Him came water. Later, the children of Israel thirsted again, and God told Moses to speak to the rock. Moses didn't obey, but that means after Christ was smitten to death. There is no longer the need to crucify him again like the Catholics do at every mass. All we have to do is pray to the Rock to receiver rivers of living water and eternal life.
Lets move on to more shadows and types. The children of israel were chronic complainers and they were being destroy by snakes. God told Moses to hold up a serpent and have them look on it and they would live. That serpent represent Christ who becames sin for us so we could be the righteous of Christ to God who is the only true one God.
There is no other way to be right with God. Muhammad was an imposter prophet a liar who came from his father the best of deceivers. Come out from among them says the Lord and be not partakers of this evil deception. I know Jesus Christ is the only truth since before the foundation of the earth.
If you reject this message, you'll most certainly have eternal regrets and what was shared here will play through your mind forever.
Post #477
Burninglight
QUOTE: "I don't mind if you continue, but before you do, comprehend what is being said by me and read carefully. You are reading into Bible passages things that are not there and even into my own words. Where did I say ishmael was not a son? You are basing your argument on what I didn't say. Maybe you do this in an attempt to win an argument, but anyone can see this"
ANSWER: You said:
"God never spoke to Ishmael son of the slave woman"
I am basing my argument on what you are saying, why are you referring to her as a "slave women"
QUOTE: "Sarah told Abraham this woman (Hagar) will not have part of the inheritance with my son send her away. Hagar was Sarah's slave or handmaid so she had the right to fire her. Sarah only gave Hagar to Abraham for one purpose; that was to bear him a child for Sarah, because she was barren at the time. Hagar wasn't Abraham's pick for a wife. Her sole purpose was to be a surrogate mother for Sarah. When Hagar fired her for her lol pride, Abraham sent her away at God's command"
ANSWER: Hagar was Abraham's wife according to Genesis 16:3, So his pick for a wife means that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is from the wrong bloodline? I don't understand your point??
"The story of Hagar is found in the Bible in the book of Genesis, chapters 16 and 21. Genesis 16:2-3 states that Hagar was an Egyptian servant belonging to Sarah, who, being barren, gave Hagar to her husband Abraham "to be his wife", so that he might still have children. She gave birth to a son, whom she named Ishmael.
As far as inheritance is concerned the firstborn son can never be illegitimate and by birthright, should receive double the inheritance than any of his siblings. This is evident when one read Deuteronomy 21:15-17:
"If a man have two wives, one beloved and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated: Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hash, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn: But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hash: for he is the beginning of the strength; the right of the firstborn is his."
QUOTE: "God said I will bless him but the fulfillment of prophecy will be through Isaac not Ishmael. I repeat "NOT ISHMAEL" I know God includes slaves in His promises, but that was not the case for Ishmael, and it couldn't be clearer. He doesn't always include slaves, but does make exceptions which Ishmael was not!"
ANSWER: Can you back this up please. Where does it say " Isaac".
QUOTE: "Listen carefully and you will see how the OT and NT work together as God's plan. God told Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac to God. Isaac was Abraham's only son of promise that doesn't mean Ishmael wasn't his son, but Ishmael was out of the picture completely and prophetically. He was a blessed son that is all, but not the seed of promise. Jesus is a descendant of Isaac not Ishmael. Abraham was to sacrifice Isaac. God didn't tell Abraham to do something He wouldn't do. Isaac on the altar of sacrifice was a type and shadow of God offering up Jesus as a sacrifice for our redemption on the cross"
ANSWER: If this is true then there is a contradiction once again, The bible records that Ishmael the eldest son was born when Abraham was 86 years old. Fourteen years later Isaac was born. (Gen. 16:16 and 21:5).
The Bible repeatedly records that the Command from God to prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) was to Sacrifice "thy only son". This particular phrase "thy only son" could only be used when Abraham had only one son, hence being Ismael not Isaac.
Furthermore what is to say that what you are saying are the true words of God, the book of Genesis had been tampered with by man. And the author of the book of hebrews is not known. This means that anyone could have written this book. This obviously would mean that the book then would in no way be the true living words of God. These are a means to persuade the reader that Isaac was the son to be sacrificed, maybe because his mother was Jewish. Also inserting the false claim, that any son born from a slave woman is not considered a biological son.
QUOTE: "Now lets move on to the time of Moses. If you recall the Passover, this is were a lamb was sacrificed and the blood placed on the door post. If the blood was there the first born was spared from the death angel. This is another shadow and type. Jesus is the lamb of God. There is no remission of sin without the shedding of Christ's blood to be placed on the door posts of our hearts and soul."
ANSWER: John is the only gospel that portrays Jesus as "Lamb of God" but Jesus never applied the title for himself. The apostles never claimed Jesus (peace be upon him) was God-incarnate, let alone God's lamb.
Jesus denied sacrifice and preached the Law of Moses which contradicts Atonement. Christians believe the exact opposite of the Bible.
Jesus (peace be upon him) is called "Lamb of God" because he took away the sins of mankind, yet the title is false because Jesus was not crucified (Psalms 20:6) so therefore he was not the Lamb of God.
There is no clear teaching of the Christian doctrine regarding the crucifixion of Jesus for the sins of the world in the entire four Gospels in which he states that he has come to die for the sins of the world. This is the teachings of Paul and Christians misinterpret and twist Jesus' statements in order to conform to Paul's teachings.
QUOTE: "After the children of Israel escaped they thirsted and God told Moses to smite the rock and out of it came water. This represents Jesus the Rock of our salvation. When He was smitten on the cross out of Him came water. Later, the children of Israel thirsted again, and God told Moses to speak to the rock. Moses didn't obey, but that means after Christ was smitten to death. There is no longer the need to crucify him again like the Catholics do at every mass. All we have to do is pray to the Rock to receiver rivers of living water and eternal life"
ANSWER: And where are you getting this from? Pray to the rock??
QUOTE: "Lets move on to more shadows and types. The children of israel were chronic complainers and they were being destroy by snakes. God told Moses to hold up a serpent and have them look on it and they would live. That serpent represent Christ who becames sin for us so we could be the righteous of Christ to God who is the only true one God"
ANSWER: Again where are you getting this from?
QUOTE: "There is no other way to be right with God. Muhammad was an imposter prophet a liar who came from his father the best of deceivers. Come out from among them says the Lord and be not partakers of this evil deception. I know Jesus Christ is the only truth since before the foundation of the earth.
If you reject this message, you'll most certainly have eternal regrets and what was shared here will play through your mind forever"
ANSWER: The only way you can be right with God is by following what he has commanded of you to be followed, not calling his Prophet (peace be upon him) a liar or God a deceiver, if you truly believe in Jesus (peace be upon him) you would realize that what you are inclined to believe in now, is not his true teachings.
QUOTE: "I don't mind if you continue, but before you do, comprehend what is being said by me and read carefully. You are reading into Bible passages things that are not there and even into my own words. Where did I say ishmael was not a son? You are basing your argument on what I didn't say. Maybe you do this in an attempt to win an argument, but anyone can see this"
ANSWER: You said:
"God never spoke to Ishmael son of the slave woman"
I am basing my argument on what you are saying, why are you referring to her as a "slave women"
QUOTE: "Sarah told Abraham this woman (Hagar) will not have part of the inheritance with my son send her away. Hagar was Sarah's slave or handmaid so she had the right to fire her. Sarah only gave Hagar to Abraham for one purpose; that was to bear him a child for Sarah, because she was barren at the time. Hagar wasn't Abraham's pick for a wife. Her sole purpose was to be a surrogate mother for Sarah. When Hagar fired her for her lol pride, Abraham sent her away at God's command"
ANSWER: Hagar was Abraham's wife according to Genesis 16:3, So his pick for a wife means that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is from the wrong bloodline? I don't understand your point??
"The story of Hagar is found in the Bible in the book of Genesis, chapters 16 and 21. Genesis 16:2-3 states that Hagar was an Egyptian servant belonging to Sarah, who, being barren, gave Hagar to her husband Abraham "to be his wife", so that he might still have children. She gave birth to a son, whom she named Ishmael.
As far as inheritance is concerned the firstborn son can never be illegitimate and by birthright, should receive double the inheritance than any of his siblings. This is evident when one read Deuteronomy 21:15-17:
"If a man have two wives, one beloved and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated: Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hash, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn: But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hash: for he is the beginning of the strength; the right of the firstborn is his."
QUOTE: "God said I will bless him but the fulfillment of prophecy will be through Isaac not Ishmael. I repeat "NOT ISHMAEL" I know God includes slaves in His promises, but that was not the case for Ishmael, and it couldn't be clearer. He doesn't always include slaves, but does make exceptions which Ishmael was not!"
ANSWER: Can you back this up please. Where does it say " Isaac".
QUOTE: "Listen carefully and you will see how the OT and NT work together as God's plan. God told Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac to God. Isaac was Abraham's only son of promise that doesn't mean Ishmael wasn't his son, but Ishmael was out of the picture completely and prophetically. He was a blessed son that is all, but not the seed of promise. Jesus is a descendant of Isaac not Ishmael. Abraham was to sacrifice Isaac. God didn't tell Abraham to do something He wouldn't do. Isaac on the altar of sacrifice was a type and shadow of God offering up Jesus as a sacrifice for our redemption on the cross"
ANSWER: If this is true then there is a contradiction once again, The bible records that Ishmael the eldest son was born when Abraham was 86 years old. Fourteen years later Isaac was born. (Gen. 16:16 and 21:5).
The Bible repeatedly records that the Command from God to prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) was to Sacrifice "thy only son". This particular phrase "thy only son" could only be used when Abraham had only one son, hence being Ismael not Isaac.
Furthermore what is to say that what you are saying are the true words of God, the book of Genesis had been tampered with by man. And the author of the book of hebrews is not known. This means that anyone could have written this book. This obviously would mean that the book then would in no way be the true living words of God. These are a means to persuade the reader that Isaac was the son to be sacrificed, maybe because his mother was Jewish. Also inserting the false claim, that any son born from a slave woman is not considered a biological son.
QUOTE: "Now lets move on to the time of Moses. If you recall the Passover, this is were a lamb was sacrificed and the blood placed on the door post. If the blood was there the first born was spared from the death angel. This is another shadow and type. Jesus is the lamb of God. There is no remission of sin without the shedding of Christ's blood to be placed on the door posts of our hearts and soul."
ANSWER: John is the only gospel that portrays Jesus as "Lamb of God" but Jesus never applied the title for himself. The apostles never claimed Jesus (peace be upon him) was God-incarnate, let alone God's lamb.
Jesus denied sacrifice and preached the Law of Moses which contradicts Atonement. Christians believe the exact opposite of the Bible.
Jesus (peace be upon him) is called "Lamb of God" because he took away the sins of mankind, yet the title is false because Jesus was not crucified (Psalms 20:6) so therefore he was not the Lamb of God.
There is no clear teaching of the Christian doctrine regarding the crucifixion of Jesus for the sins of the world in the entire four Gospels in which he states that he has come to die for the sins of the world. This is the teachings of Paul and Christians misinterpret and twist Jesus' statements in order to conform to Paul's teachings.
QUOTE: "After the children of Israel escaped they thirsted and God told Moses to smite the rock and out of it came water. This represents Jesus the Rock of our salvation. When He was smitten on the cross out of Him came water. Later, the children of Israel thirsted again, and God told Moses to speak to the rock. Moses didn't obey, but that means after Christ was smitten to death. There is no longer the need to crucify him again like the Catholics do at every mass. All we have to do is pray to the Rock to receiver rivers of living water and eternal life"
ANSWER: And where are you getting this from? Pray to the rock??
QUOTE: "Lets move on to more shadows and types. The children of israel were chronic complainers and they were being destroy by snakes. God told Moses to hold up a serpent and have them look on it and they would live. That serpent represent Christ who becames sin for us so we could be the righteous of Christ to God who is the only true one God"
ANSWER: Again where are you getting this from?
QUOTE: "There is no other way to be right with God. Muhammad was an imposter prophet a liar who came from his father the best of deceivers. Come out from among them says the Lord and be not partakers of this evil deception. I know Jesus Christ is the only truth since before the foundation of the earth.
If you reject this message, you'll most certainly have eternal regrets and what was shared here will play through your mind forever"
ANSWER: The only way you can be right with God is by following what he has commanded of you to be followed, not calling his Prophet (peace be upon him) a liar or God a deceiver, if you truly believe in Jesus (peace be upon him) you would realize that what you are inclined to believe in now, is not his true teachings.
-
Burninglight
- Guru
- Posts: 1202
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:40 am
Post #478
AnswerHaLi8993 wrote: Burninglight
QUOTE: "I don't mind if you continue, but before you do, comprehend what is being said by me and read carefully. You are reading into Bible passages things that are not there and even into my own words. Where did I say ishmael was not a son? You are basing your argument on what I didn't say. Maybe you do this in an attempt to win an argument, but anyone can see this"
ANSWER: You said:
"God never spoke to Ishmael son of the slave woman"
I am basing my argument on what you are saying, why are you referring to her as a "slave women"
QUOTE: "Sarah told Abraham this woman (Hagar) will not have part of the inheritance with my son send her away. Hagar was Sarah's slave or handmaid so she had the right to fire her. Sarah only gave Hagar to Abraham for one purpose; that was to bear him a child for Sarah, because she was barren at the time. Hagar wasn't Abraham's pick for a wife. Her sole purpose was to be a surrogate mother for Sarah. When Hagar fired her for her lol pride, Abraham sent her away at God's command"
ANSWER: Hagar was Abraham's wife according to Genesis 16:3, So his pick for a wife means that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is from the wrong bloodline? I don't understand your point??
"The story of Hagar is found in the Bible in the book of Genesis, chapters 16 and 21. Genesis 16:2-3 states that Hagar was an Egyptian servant belonging to Sarah, who, being barren, gave Hagar to her husband Abraham "to be his wife", so that he might still have children. She gave birth to a son, whom she named Ishmael.
As far as inheritance is concerned the firstborn son can never be illegitimate and by birthright, should receive double the inheritance than any of his siblings. This is evident when one read Deuteronomy 21:15-17:
"If a man have two wives, one beloved and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated: Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hash, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn: But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hash: for he is the beginning of the strength; the right of the firstborn is his."
QUOTE: "God said I will bless him but the fulfillment of prophecy will be through Isaac not Ishmael. I repeat "NOT ISHMAEL" I know God includes slaves in His promises, but that was not the case for Ishmael, and it couldn't be clearer. He doesn't always include slaves, but does make exceptions which Ishmael was not!"
ANSWER: Can you back this up please. Where does it say " Isaac".
QUOTE: "Listen carefully and you will see how the OT and NT work together as God's plan. God told Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac to God. Isaac was Abraham's only son of promise that doesn't mean Ishmael wasn't his son, but Ishmael was out of the picture completely and prophetically. He was a blessed son that is all, but not the seed of promise. Jesus is a descendant of Isaac not Ishmael. Abraham was to sacrifice Isaac. God didn't tell Abraham to do something He wouldn't do. Isaac on the altar of sacrifice was a type and shadow of God offering up Jesus as a sacrifice for our redemption on the cross"
ANSWER: If this is true then there is a contradiction once again, The bible records that Ishmael the eldest son was born when Abraham was 86 years old. Fourteen years later Isaac was born. (Gen. 16:16 and 21:5).
The Bible repeatedly records that the Command from God to prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) was to Sacrifice "thy only son". This particular phrase "thy only son" could only be used when Abraham had only one son, hence being Ismael not Isaac.
Furthermore what is to say that what you are saying are the true words of God, the book of Genesis had been tampered with by man. And the author of the book of hebrews is not known. This means that anyone could have written this book. This obviously would mean that the book then would in no way be the true living words of God. These are a means to persuade the reader that Isaac was the son to be sacrificed, maybe because his mother was Jewish. Also inserting the false claim, that any son born from a slave woman is not considered a biological son.
QUOTE: "Now lets move on to the time of Moses. If you recall the Passover, this is were a lamb was sacrificed and the blood placed on the door post. If the blood was there the first born was spared from the death angel. This is another shadow and type. Jesus is the lamb of God. There is no remission of sin without the shedding of Christ's blood to be placed on the door posts of our hearts and soul."
ANSWER: John is the only gospel that portrays Jesus as "Lamb of God" but Jesus never applied the title for himself. The apostles never claimed Jesus (peace be upon him) was God-incarnate, let alone God's lamb.
Jesus denied sacrifice and preached the Law of Moses which contradicts Atonement. Christians believe the exact opposite of the Bible.
Jesus (peace be upon him) is called "Lamb of God" because he took away the sins of mankind, yet the title is false because Jesus was not crucified (Psalms 20:6) so therefore he was not the Lamb of God.
There is no clear teaching of the Christian doctrine regarding the crucifixion of Jesus for the sins of the world in the entire four Gospels in which he states that he has come to die for the sins of the world. This is the teachings of Paul and Christians misinterpret and twist Jesus' statements in order to conform to Paul's teachings.
QUOTE: "After the children of Israel escaped they thirsted and God told Moses to smite the rock and out of it came water. This represents Jesus the Rock of our salvation. When He was smitten on the cross out of Him came water. Later, the children of Israel thirsted again, and God told Moses to speak to the rock. Moses didn't obey, but that means after Christ was smitten to death. There is no longer the need to crucify him again like the Catholics do at every mass. All we have to do is pray to the Rock to receiver rivers of living water and eternal life"
ANSWER: And where are you getting this from? Pray to the rock??
QUOTE: "Lets move on to more shadows and types. The children of israel were chronic complainers and they were being destroy by snakes. God told Moses to hold up a serpent and have them look on it and they would live. That serpent represent Christ who becames sin for us so we could be the righteous of Christ to God who is the only true one God"
ANSWER: Again where are you getting this from?
QUOTE: "There is no other way to be right with God. Muhammad was an imposter prophet a liar who came from his father the best of deceivers. Come out from among them says the Lord and be not partakers of this evil deception. I know Jesus Christ is the only truth since before the foundation of the earth.
If you reject this message, you'll most certainly have eternal regrets and what was shared here will play through your mind forever"
ANSWER: The only way you can be right with God is by following what he has commanded of you to be followed, not calling his Prophet (peace be upon him) a liar or God a deceiver, if you truly believe in Jesus (peace be upon him) you would realize that what you are inclined to believe in now, is not his true teachings.
Isaac was Abraham's only son after the slave woman and her son were sent away. Look and see why I say what I said. Don't even attempt to say the Bible is corrupted, because even the ancient Hebrew Bibles state it this way; Gen 21: 8 And the child grew and was weaned. And Abraham made a great feast on the day that Isaac was weaned. 9 But Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, laughing. 10 So she said to Abraham, Cast out this slave woman with her son, for the son of this slave woman shall not be heir with my son Isaac. 11 And the thing was very displeasing to Abraham on account of his son. 12 But God said to Abraham, Be not displeased because of the boy and because of your slave woman. Whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac shall your offspring be named. 13 And I will make a nation of the son of the slave woman also, because he is your offspring. 14 So Abraham rose early in the morning and took bread and a skin of water and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, along with the child, and sent her away. And she departed and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.
15 When the water in the skin was gone, she put the child under one of the bushes. 16 Then she went and sat down opposite him a good way off, about the distance of a bowshot, for she said, Let me not look on the death of the child. And as she sat opposite him, she lifted up her voice and wept. 17 And God heard the voice of the boy, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, What troubles you, Hagar? Fear not, for God has heard the voice of the boy where he is. 18 Up! Lift up the boy, and hold him fast with your hand, for I will make him into a great nation. 19 Then God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. And she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink. 20 And God was with the boy, and he grew up. He lived in the wilderness and became an expert with the bow. 21 He lived in the wilderness of Paran, and his mother took a wife for him from the land of Egypt.
We have Jesus' teaching Muslim have the teaching of a different Jesus and not Him of the Bible. Look at Revelation: 5 Rev 5 9 And they sang a new song, saying,
Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth.
11 Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,
Worthy is the Lamb who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might
and honor and glory and blessing!
13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying,
To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!
14 And the four living creatures said, Amen! and the elders fell down and worshiped.
Post #479
Burninglight
QUOTE: "Isaac was Abraham's only son after the slave woman and her son were sent away. Look and see why I say what I said. Don't even attempt to say the Bible is corrupted, because even the ancient Hebrew Bibles state it this way; Gen 21: 8 And the child grew and was weaned. And Abraham made a great feast on the day that Isaac was weaned. 9 But Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, laughing. 10 So she said to Abraham, Cast out this slave woman with her son, for the son of this slave woman shall not be heir with my son Isaac. 11 And the thing was very displeasing to Abraham on account of his son. 12 But God said to Abraham, Be not displeased because of the boy and because of your slave woman. Whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac shall your offspring be named. 13 And I will make a nation of the son of the slave woman also, because he is your offspring. 14 So Abraham rose early in the morning and took bread and a skin of water and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, along with the child, and sent her away. And she departed and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.
15 When the water in the skin was gone, she put the child under one of the bushes. 16 Then she went and sat down opposite him a good way off, about the distance of a bowshot, for she said, Let me not look on the death of the child. And as she sat opposite him, she lifted up her voice and wept. 17 And God heard the voice of the boy, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, What troubles you, Hagar? Fear not, for God has heard the voice of the boy where he is. 18 Up! Lift up the boy, and hold him fast with your hand, for I will make him into a great nation. 19 Then God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. And she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink. 20 And God was with the boy, and he grew up. He lived in the wilderness and became an expert with the bow. 21 He lived in the wilderness of Paran, and his mother took a wife for him from the land of Egypt"
ANSWER: I am very happy you brought this passage up. Ok lets analyze this passage shall we. When one looks into the two verses Genesis 17:21 and 21:12 in context with other verses of this same book, it becomes obvious that the Ishmaelite were included in God's promise and his covenant with Abraham.
God's covenant with Abraham was made before he had any children. It was reiterated after the birth of Ishmael and before the birth of Isaac. Moreover, Ishmael is also specifically blessed, and, hence, included in God's promise. For example, God stated:
Genesis 21:13:
Of the son of the maidservant (i.e. Ishmael) I will make a great nation because he is thy seed.
The above promise was further confirmed a few verses later:
Genesis 21:18:
Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in your hand; for I will make him a great nation.
In Genesis 21:20 - God was with the boy as he grew up.
Therefore my question to you would be why there should be only one child as the heir of the divine promise? Why not both sons in view of the evidence What type of divine justice punishes the rites of the firstborn to satisfy Sarah's jealously? Was Sarah dictating her desires to God, too?
Then we come to the verse Genesis 21:10:
Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac.
When this statement was made it was after Ishmael allegedly mocked Isaac on the day Isaac was weaned (Gen 21:8-9).
Now to my next question, What would a seventeen year old boy (Ismael) have possibility have done to a three year old boy to receive such a harsh punishment where by a man would send his wife and son into the desert due to his other wife's moodiness?
(Gen 21:10) Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac.
Then we clearly see how Abraham obeyed his wife Sarah whose demand of casting out the slave woman and her son was blessed by God who told Abraham of Genesis 21:12 listen to Sarah.
One morning Abraham rose up, gave provisions and water to Ishmael and Hagar, and left them in the wilderness of Beer Sheba in Southern Palestine (Gen 21:14). When Hagar ran out of water she could not bear to watch her son die, so she sat away. Eventually, an angel appeared before her and provided her with a spring of water. The angel further told her (Gen 21:18) Arise, lift up the lad and hold him in your hand; for I will make him a great nation. Ishmael dwelt in the wilderness of Paran (Gen 21:17-21) He had twelve sons one of whom one was named Kedar (Gen 25:13).
Now this is where there are inconsistencies and contradictions
In Genesis 21:14-19 it is clear that Ishmael was a little baby at that time. This is confirmed in Gensis 16:16 as it states that Abraham was 86 years old when Ishmael was born. In Gensis 21:5 Abraham was one hundred years old when Isaac was born. Therefore Ishmael was already fourteen years old when his younger brother Isaac was born.
So just to emphasize again this incident took place after Isaac was weaned. Biblical scholars confirm that the child was probably weaned at about the age of three. So this suggests that when Hagar and Ishmael were taken away Ishmael was a full-grown teenager, being seventeen years old.
This is where there is a problem because the description of Ishmael in Gen 21:14-19 is a small baby and not a full-grown teenager.
So then one would ask why?? was it before or after the birth of Isaac that Ishmael and Hagar were sent to the desert??
This is what Genesis 21:14-21 says as you have quoted:
14 Early next morning Abraham took some food and a full water-skin and gave them to Hagar. He set the child on her shoulder and sent her away, and she wandered about in the wilderness of Beersheba. 15 When the water in the skin was finished, she thrust the child under a bush, 16 then went and sat down some way off, about a bowshot distant. How can I watch the child die? she said, and sat there, weeping bitterly. 17 God heard the child crying, and the angel of God called from heaven to Hagar, What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid: God has heard the child crying where you laid him. 18 Go, lift the child and hold him in your arms, because I shall make of him a great nation. 19 Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well full of water; she went to it, filled the water-skin, and gave the child a drink. 20 God was with the child as he grew up. He lived in the wilderness of Paran and became an archer; 21 and his mother got him a wife from Egypt. (The Revised English Bible)
Now can you explain to me how on earth a mother would carry a seventeen year old teenage boy on her shoulder? He must of been strong enough to carry his mother at that age. Lol
Also in Genesis 21:15 Hagar put the child under one of the bushes.
Does this sound like Ishmael being a baby and not a teenager! Lol
It gets better in Genesis 21:16 Hagar sat away so she did not have to see the child die before her eyes.
Does this sound like a seventeen year old teenager?? Who would probably be more concerned about his mother dying instead, it sounds like this description would fit that of a small helpless boy.
As we continue in Genesis 21:17-18, the angels told Hagar lift the child and hold him in your arms.
Is it likely one can do this with a seventeen year old man lifting him up and holding him in your arms by a women while crying. Sounds like a baby to me. I can continue but I am rather a bit tired and need to sleep lol.
The ultimate conclusion which I am going to attempt is that the Bible contains some elements of truth however there is evidence of human intervention and corruption adding, subtracting etc. The Islamic version of this story is consistent the whole way through. Ishmael was a baby and Isaac was not born yet when this incident took place.
QUOTE: "We have Jesus' teaching Muslim have the teaching of a different Jesus and not Him of the Bible. Look at Revelation: 5 Rev 5 9 And they sang a new song, saying,
Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth.
11 Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,
Worthy is the Lamb who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might
and honor and glory and blessing!
13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying,
To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!
14 And the four living creatures said, Amen! and the elders fell down and worshiped"
ANSWER: Revelation 5:13 is talking about two different entities so how is this referring to Jesus (peace be upon him)??
QUOTE: "Isaac was Abraham's only son after the slave woman and her son were sent away. Look and see why I say what I said. Don't even attempt to say the Bible is corrupted, because even the ancient Hebrew Bibles state it this way; Gen 21: 8 And the child grew and was weaned. And Abraham made a great feast on the day that Isaac was weaned. 9 But Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, laughing. 10 So she said to Abraham, Cast out this slave woman with her son, for the son of this slave woman shall not be heir with my son Isaac. 11 And the thing was very displeasing to Abraham on account of his son. 12 But God said to Abraham, Be not displeased because of the boy and because of your slave woman. Whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac shall your offspring be named. 13 And I will make a nation of the son of the slave woman also, because he is your offspring. 14 So Abraham rose early in the morning and took bread and a skin of water and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, along with the child, and sent her away. And she departed and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.
15 When the water in the skin was gone, she put the child under one of the bushes. 16 Then she went and sat down opposite him a good way off, about the distance of a bowshot, for she said, Let me not look on the death of the child. And as she sat opposite him, she lifted up her voice and wept. 17 And God heard the voice of the boy, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, What troubles you, Hagar? Fear not, for God has heard the voice of the boy where he is. 18 Up! Lift up the boy, and hold him fast with your hand, for I will make him into a great nation. 19 Then God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. And she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink. 20 And God was with the boy, and he grew up. He lived in the wilderness and became an expert with the bow. 21 He lived in the wilderness of Paran, and his mother took a wife for him from the land of Egypt"
ANSWER: I am very happy you brought this passage up. Ok lets analyze this passage shall we. When one looks into the two verses Genesis 17:21 and 21:12 in context with other verses of this same book, it becomes obvious that the Ishmaelite were included in God's promise and his covenant with Abraham.
God's covenant with Abraham was made before he had any children. It was reiterated after the birth of Ishmael and before the birth of Isaac. Moreover, Ishmael is also specifically blessed, and, hence, included in God's promise. For example, God stated:
Genesis 21:13:
Of the son of the maidservant (i.e. Ishmael) I will make a great nation because he is thy seed.
The above promise was further confirmed a few verses later:
Genesis 21:18:
Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in your hand; for I will make him a great nation.
In Genesis 21:20 - God was with the boy as he grew up.
Therefore my question to you would be why there should be only one child as the heir of the divine promise? Why not both sons in view of the evidence What type of divine justice punishes the rites of the firstborn to satisfy Sarah's jealously? Was Sarah dictating her desires to God, too?
Then we come to the verse Genesis 21:10:
Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac.
When this statement was made it was after Ishmael allegedly mocked Isaac on the day Isaac was weaned (Gen 21:8-9).
Now to my next question, What would a seventeen year old boy (Ismael) have possibility have done to a three year old boy to receive such a harsh punishment where by a man would send his wife and son into the desert due to his other wife's moodiness?
(Gen 21:10) Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac.
Then we clearly see how Abraham obeyed his wife Sarah whose demand of casting out the slave woman and her son was blessed by God who told Abraham of Genesis 21:12 listen to Sarah.
One morning Abraham rose up, gave provisions and water to Ishmael and Hagar, and left them in the wilderness of Beer Sheba in Southern Palestine (Gen 21:14). When Hagar ran out of water she could not bear to watch her son die, so she sat away. Eventually, an angel appeared before her and provided her with a spring of water. The angel further told her (Gen 21:18) Arise, lift up the lad and hold him in your hand; for I will make him a great nation. Ishmael dwelt in the wilderness of Paran (Gen 21:17-21) He had twelve sons one of whom one was named Kedar (Gen 25:13).
Now this is where there are inconsistencies and contradictions
In Genesis 21:14-19 it is clear that Ishmael was a little baby at that time. This is confirmed in Gensis 16:16 as it states that Abraham was 86 years old when Ishmael was born. In Gensis 21:5 Abraham was one hundred years old when Isaac was born. Therefore Ishmael was already fourteen years old when his younger brother Isaac was born.
So just to emphasize again this incident took place after Isaac was weaned. Biblical scholars confirm that the child was probably weaned at about the age of three. So this suggests that when Hagar and Ishmael were taken away Ishmael was a full-grown teenager, being seventeen years old.
This is where there is a problem because the description of Ishmael in Gen 21:14-19 is a small baby and not a full-grown teenager.
So then one would ask why?? was it before or after the birth of Isaac that Ishmael and Hagar were sent to the desert??
This is what Genesis 21:14-21 says as you have quoted:
14 Early next morning Abraham took some food and a full water-skin and gave them to Hagar. He set the child on her shoulder and sent her away, and she wandered about in the wilderness of Beersheba. 15 When the water in the skin was finished, she thrust the child under a bush, 16 then went and sat down some way off, about a bowshot distant. How can I watch the child die? she said, and sat there, weeping bitterly. 17 God heard the child crying, and the angel of God called from heaven to Hagar, What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid: God has heard the child crying where you laid him. 18 Go, lift the child and hold him in your arms, because I shall make of him a great nation. 19 Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well full of water; she went to it, filled the water-skin, and gave the child a drink. 20 God was with the child as he grew up. He lived in the wilderness of Paran and became an archer; 21 and his mother got him a wife from Egypt. (The Revised English Bible)
Now can you explain to me how on earth a mother would carry a seventeen year old teenage boy on her shoulder? He must of been strong enough to carry his mother at that age. Lol
Also in Genesis 21:15 Hagar put the child under one of the bushes.
Does this sound like Ishmael being a baby and not a teenager! Lol
It gets better in Genesis 21:16 Hagar sat away so she did not have to see the child die before her eyes.
Does this sound like a seventeen year old teenager?? Who would probably be more concerned about his mother dying instead, it sounds like this description would fit that of a small helpless boy.
As we continue in Genesis 21:17-18, the angels told Hagar lift the child and hold him in your arms.
Is it likely one can do this with a seventeen year old man lifting him up and holding him in your arms by a women while crying. Sounds like a baby to me. I can continue but I am rather a bit tired and need to sleep lol.
The ultimate conclusion which I am going to attempt is that the Bible contains some elements of truth however there is evidence of human intervention and corruption adding, subtracting etc. The Islamic version of this story is consistent the whole way through. Ishmael was a baby and Isaac was not born yet when this incident took place.
QUOTE: "We have Jesus' teaching Muslim have the teaching of a different Jesus and not Him of the Bible. Look at Revelation: 5 Rev 5 9 And they sang a new song, saying,
Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth.
11 Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,
Worthy is the Lamb who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might
and honor and glory and blessing!
13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying,
To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!
14 And the four living creatures said, Amen! and the elders fell down and worshiped"
ANSWER: Revelation 5:13 is talking about two different entities so how is this referring to Jesus (peace be upon him)??
-
Burninglight
- Guru
- Posts: 1202
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:40 am
Post #480
HaLi8993 wrote: Burninglight
QUOTE: "Isaac was Abraham's only son after the slave woman and her son were sent away. Look and see why I say what I said. Don't even attempt to say the Bible is corrupted, because even the ancient Hebrew Bibles state it this way; Gen 21: 8 And the child grew and was weaned. And Abraham made a great feast on the day that Isaac was weaned. 9 But Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, laughing. 10 So she said to Abraham, Cast out this slave woman with her son, for the son of this slave woman shall not be heir with my son Isaac. 11 And the thing was very displeasing to Abraham on account of his son. 12 But God said to Abraham, Be not displeased because of the boy and because of your slave woman. Whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac shall your offspring be named. 13 And I will make a nation of the son of the slave woman also, because he is your offspring. 14 So Abraham rose early in the morning and took bread and a skin of water and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, along with the child, and sent her away. And she departed and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.
15 When the water in the skin was gone, she put the child under one of the bushes. 16 Then she went and sat down opposite him a good way off, about the distance of a bowshot, for she said, Let me not look on the death of the child. And as she sat opposite him, she lifted up her voice and wept. 17 And God heard the voice of the boy, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, What troubles you, Hagar? Fear not, for God has heard the voice of the boy where he is. 18 Up! Lift up the boy, and hold him fast with your hand, for I will make him into a great nation. 19 Then God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. And she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink. 20 And God was with the boy, and he grew up. He lived in the wilderness and became an expert with the bow. 21 He lived in the wilderness of Paran, and his mother took a wife for him from the land of Egypt"Yes, Ishmael was blessed and that brought comfort to Abraham for he loved the child, but God was specific that his covenant would be fulfilled through Isaac. I believe there is a passage in the Quran that mentions Isaac and Jacob only. For some reason Ishmael's name is not mentioned in one passage of the Quran, uhm.HaLi8993 wrote:
ANSWER: I am very happy you brought this passage up. Ok lets analyze this passage shall we. When one looks into the two verses Genesis 17:21 and 21:12 in context with other verses of this same book, it becomes obvious that the Ishmaelite were included in God's promise and his covenant with Abraham.
God's covenant with Abraham was made before he had any children. It was reiterated after the birth of Ishmael and before the birth of Isaac. Moreover, Ishmael is also specifically blessed, and, hence, included in God's promise. For example, God stated:
Genesis 21:13:
Of the son of the maidservant (i.e. Ishmael) I will make a great nation because he is thy seed.
The above promise was further confirmed a few verses later:
Genesis 21:18:
Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in your hand; for I will make him a great nation.
In Genesis 21:20 - God was with the boy as he grew up.
Therefore my question to you would be why there should be only one child as the heir of the divine promise? Why not both sons in view of the evidence What type of divine justice punishes the rites of the firstborn to satisfy Sarah's jealously? Was Sarah dictating her desires to God, too?)
This rejection and casting away of the slave woman's son was not God catering to a woman's jealousy. It was God's plan to give Sarah a son of promise. She didn't trust God to wait and took matters into her own hands resulting in Ishmael son of a slave woman whose son had no part in God's covenantal promise with Isaac and Jacob.
HaLi8993 wrote:
Then we come to the verse Genesis 21:10:
Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac.
When this statement was made it was after Ishmael allegedly mocked Isaac on the day Isaac was weaned (Gen 21:8-9).
Now to my next question, What would a seventeen year old boy (Ismael) have possibility have done to a three year old boy to receive such a harsh punishment where by a man would send his wife and son into the desert due to his other wife's moodiness?
(Gen 21:10) Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac.
Then we clearly see how Abraham obeyed his wife Sarah whose demand of casting out the slave woman and her son was blessed by God who told Abraham of Genesis 21:12 listen to Sarah.
One morning Abraham rose up, gave provisions and water to Ishmael and Hagar, and left them in the wilderness of Beer Sheba in Southern Palestine (Gen 21:14). When Hagar ran out of water she could not bear to watch her son die, so she sat away. Eventually, an angel appeared before her and provided her with a spring of water. The angel further told her (Gen 21:18) Arise, lift up the lad and hold him in your hand; for I will make him a great nation. Ishmael dwelt in the wilderness of Paran (Gen 21:17-21) He had twelve sons one of whom one was named Kedar (Gen 25:13).
Now this is where there are inconsistencies and contradictions
In Genesis 21:14-19 it is clear that Ishmael was a little baby at that time. This is confirmed in Gensis 16:16 as it states that Abraham was 86 years old when Ishmael was born. In Gensis 21:5 Abraham was one hundred years old when Isaac was born. Therefore Ishmael was already fourteen years old when his younger brother Isaac was born.
So just to emphasize again this incident took place after Isaac was weaned. Biblical scholars confirm that the child was probably weaned at about the age of three. So this suggests that when Hagar and Ishmael were taken away Ishmael was a full-grown teenager, being seventeen years old.
This is where there is a problem because the description of Ishmael in Gen 21:14-19 is a small baby and not a full-grown teenager.
So then one would ask why?? was it before or after the birth of Isaac that Ishmael and Hagar were sent to the desert??
This is what Genesis 21:14-21 says as you have quoted:
14 Early next morning Abraham took some food and a full water-skin and gave them to Hagar. He set the child on her shoulder and sent her away, and she wandered about in the wilderness of Beersheba. 15 When the water in the skin was finished, she thrust the child under a bush, 16 then went and sat down some way off, about a bowshot distant. How can I watch the child die? she said, and sat there, weeping bitterly. 17 God heard the child crying, and the angel of God called from heaven to Hagar, What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid: God has heard the child crying where you laid him. 18 Go, lift the child and hold him in your arms, because I shall make of him a great nation. 19 Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well full of water; she went to it, filled the water-skin, and gave the child a drink. 20 God was with the child as he grew up. He lived in the wilderness of Paran and became an archer; 21 and his mother got him a wife from Egypt. (The Revised English Bible)
Now can you explain to me how on earth a mother would carry a seventeen year old teenage boy on her shoulder? He must of been strong enough to carry his mother at that age. Lol
Also in Genesis 21:15 Hagar put the child under one of the bushes.
Does this sound like Ishmael being a baby and not a teenager! Lol
It gets better in Genesis 21:16 Hagar sat away so she did not have to see the child die before her eyes.
Does this sound like a seventeen year old teenager?? Who would probably be more concerned about his mother dying instead, it sounds like this description would fit that of a small helpless boy.
As we continue in Genesis 21:17-18, the angels told Hagar lift the child and hold him in your arms.
Is it likely one can do this with a seventeen year old man lifting him up and holding him in your arms by a women while crying. Sounds like a baby to me. I can continue but I am rather a bit tired and need to sleep lol.
The ultimate conclusion which I am going to attempt is that the Bible contains some elements of truth however there is evidence of human intervention and corruption adding, subtracting etc. The Islamic version of this story is consistent the whole way through. Ishmael was a baby and Isaac was not born yet when this incident took place.
Who knows for sure how old exactly Ishmael was some say 14 yo. I am sure there is an explanation better than saying God's word is corrupted. Maybe ishmael was prematurely small or a midget or underweight. I would be careful saying the word of God is corrupted. God's power to preserve His word is greater than man's power to corrupt it. Muslim need to say it is corrupted to justify the lies in the Quran but God knows what the best of deceivers is up to
