Back to basics: Give me an argument as to why a god exists

[FaerieStories]

Hi, I'm new here and I see a lot of active topics on specific concepts where users are already heavily engaged in debate, making it a little hard for me to join in. So to test the waters a little (and to help me decide whether or not to stick around here), let's go back to basics and have a debate about the most fundamental question at hand here: does a god exist?

As a non-believer, I have yet to discover any convincing reason as to why I should believe in a god. So, if a Theist would like to get the ball rolling by giving me a reason why god exists, that would be great.

(PS: unrelated question: what is the general breakdown of belief/non-belief on these forums? Is it an even mix of believers and non-believers, or is there- as tends to happen on the internet- a larger proportion of atheists to Theists?).

[Moses Yoder]

Hi, I'm new here and I see a lot of active topics on specific concepts where users are already heavily engaged in debate, making it a little hard for me to join in. So to test the waters a little (and to help me decide whether or not to stick around here), let's go back to basics and have a debate about the most fundamental question at hand here: does a god exist?

As a non-believer, I have yet to discover any convincing reason as to why I should believe in a god. So, if a Theist would like to get the ball rolling by giving me a reason why god exists, that would be great.

(PS: unrelated question: what is the general breakdown of belief/non-belief on these forums? Is it an even mix of believers and non-believers, or is there- as tends to happen on the internet- a larger proportion of atheists to Theists?).

There is some evidence of a God here, including a photograph of one. http://religiousstatues.indiacrafters.c ... chive.html

Here is a list of African gods and goddesses. I assume since many of them are related to the earth and we can see their manifestation, such as the sky god, there is some evidence they exist. http://www.scns.com/earthen/other/seana ... frica.html

[FaerieStories]

There is some evidence of a God here, including a photograph of one. http://religiousstatues.indiacrafters.c ... chive.html

Here is a list of African gods and goddesses. I assume since many of them are related to the earth and we can see their manifestation, such as the sky god, there is some evidence they exist. http://www.scns.com/earthen/other/seana ... frica.html

What do you mean? How do you know they are 'related to the earth'? Poseidon is the god of the sea, he's 'related to the earth'- does he exist?

[scourge99]

: does a god exist?

As a non-believer, I have yet to discover any convincing reason as to why I should believe in a god. So, if a Theist would like to get the ball rolling by giving me a reason why god exists, that would be great.

I can give you the generic reasons i have heard from other theists.

1) Belief by holy text:
A) my holy book contains prophecies that have come true and a god is the best explanation for this therefore I believe a god exists.
B) my holy book contains miracles which have been proven to have literally happened. A god is the best explanation for these miracles therefore I believe a god exists.
C) my holy book contains stories which have been shown to have literally happened. This demonstrates my holy book is a reliable source of historical information. My holy book also discusses a god. Therefore my holy book is a reliable source of information about a god. Thus, i believe a god exists.

2) Personal experience, woo-woo, and mysticism:
A) i had a spooky/unexplained/weird/"transcendent"/etc experience which is best explained by the existence of a god therefore i believe a god exists.
B) i feel comfort/happiness/fulfilled/a_presence/etc when i pray, go to church, perform a religious ritual, etc. This is best explained by the existence of a god therefore i believe a god exists.

3) Apologetics:
A) my god is the best explanation for the existence of X (morality, existence, logic, life, etc) therefore i believe a god exists.
B) without a god X (morality, existence, logic, life, etc) cannot be adequately accounted for or explained therefore i believe a god exists.

4) Liberalism:
A) I enjoy the culture, community, god-talk, feeling, role playing , etc of my particular religion but don't believe some or all of it is literally true.
B) I "believe in" a god but don't necessarily "believe that" a god exists.

5) wishy-washy:
A) all religions and god beliefs are "true".
B) belief in god (or lack thereof) is a matter of personal opinion, aesthetics, preference, and/or taste.
C) god is X (love, the universe, consciousness, etc). X exists therefore a god exists.
D) you just got to believe and then you will believe (faith;belief in belief).

[Moses Yoder]

There is some evidence of a God here, including a photograph of one. http://religiousstatues.indiacrafters.c ... chive.html

Here is a list of African gods and goddesses. I assume since many of them are related to the earth and we can see their manifestation, such as the sky god, there is some evidence they exist. http://www.scns.com/earthen/other/seana ... frica.html

What do you mean? How do you know they are 'related to the earth'? Poseidon is the god of the sea, he's 'related to the earth'- does he exist?

You asked for reasons they exist OP, which would be evidence they exist. You asked for evidence that they exist. So far as Poseidon goes the sea exists and he is claimed to be the god of the sea, so there is evidence he exists. Plus the fact that people believed in him, which is also evidence.

[Rkrause]

Hi, I'm new here and I see a lot of active topics on specific concepts where users are already heavily engaged in debate, making it a little hard for me to join in. So to test the waters a little (and to help me decide whether or not to stick around here), let's go back to basics and have a debate about the most fundamental question at hand here: does a god exist?

As a non-believer, I have yet to discover any convincing reason as to why I should believe in a god. So, if a Theist would like to get the ball rolling by giving me a reason why god exists, that would be great.

(PS: unrelated question: what is the general breakdown of belief/non-belief on these forums? Is it an even mix of believers and non-believers, or is there- as tends to happen on the internet- a larger proportion of atheists to Theists?).

Reason cannot, by itself, explain why there is reason. Science cannot, by itself, explan why there is science. Man's descovery and application of science are products of reason.

Reason and science can explain the existence of matter, but cannot explain why there is matter. They can explain the existence of the universe, but they cannot explain why there is a universe. They can xplain the existence of life, but they cannot explain why there is life. They can explain the existence of consciousness, but they cannot explain why there is consciousness.

Science is a critical aspect of human existence, but it cannot address the spiritual nature of man. In theis respect, science is a dead end around which the Atheist refuses to reason. Reason itself informs man of its limitations and, in doing so, directs him to the discovery of a force greater than himself --a supernatural force responsible for the origins of not only human existence but all existence, and which itself has always existed and will always exist. For most, the supernatural reveals itself in the Creator --God. Man seeks God's guidance through faith and prayer. The Agnostic accepts the supernatural, but is not so sure of the form of its existence. The Deist accepts that God created the universe and man's condition but left it to man to sort things out through reason.

--Mark Levin, Liberty and Tyranny.

That sums it up...

[FaerieStories]

You asked for reasons they exist OP, which would be evidence they exist. You asked for evidence that they exist. So far as Poseidon goes the sea exists and he is claimed to be the god of the sea, so there is evidence he exists.

No. That is not evidence that Poseidon- the actual entity- exists. We have evidence that the fictitious character exists in literature, but I am not talking about the character, I am talking about the actual being.

Plus the fact that people believed in him, which is also evidence.

That is not evidence for anything. People believe in all kinds of falsities. Some people even today believe the world is flat. That is not evidence for the world being flat.

-

Reason and science can explain the existence of matter, but cannot explain why there is matter. They can explain the existence of the universe, but they cannot explain why there is a universe. They can xplain the existence of life, but they cannot explain why there is life. They can explain the existence of consciousness, but they cannot explain why there is consciousness.

Currently. But they have the potential to.

Science is a critical aspect of human existence, but it cannot address the spiritual nature of man. In theis respect, science is a dead end around which the Atheist refuses to reason. Reason itself informs man of its limitations and, in doing so, directs him to the discovery of a force greater than himself --a supernatural force responsible for the origins of not only human existence but all existence, and which itself has always existed and will always exist. For most, the supernatural reveals itself in the Creator --God. Man seeks God's guidance through faith and prayer. The Agnostic accepts the supernatural, but is not so sure of the form of its existence. The Deist accepts that God created the universe and man's condition but left it to man to sort things out through reason.

--Mark Levin, Liberty and Tyranny.

That sums it up...

That argument just blindly asserted that 'reason leads to discovering a supernatural force' without giving any explanation or elaboration on that. Massive leap of logic. Why exactly does reason demonstrate that the supernatural- and furthermore a creator- exist?

[Rkrause]

You asked for reasons they exist OP, which would be evidence they exist. You asked for evidence that they exist. So far as Poseidon goes the sea exists and he is claimed to be the god of the sea, so there is evidence he exists.

No. That is not evidence that Poseidon- the actual entity- exists. We have evidence that the fictitious character exists in literature, but I am not talking about the character, I am talking about the actual being.

Plus the fact that people believed in him, which is also evidence.

That is not evidence for anything. People believe in all kinds of falsities. Some people even today believe the world is flat. That is not evidence for the world being flat.

-

Reason and science can explain the existence of matter, but cannot explain why there is matter. They can explain the existence of the universe, but they cannot explain why there is a universe. They can xplain the existence of life, but they cannot explain why there is life. They can explain the existence of consciousness, but they cannot explain why there is consciousness.

Currently. But they have the potential to.

Science is a critical aspect of human existence, but it cannot address the spiritual nature of man. In theis respect, science is a dead end around which the Atheist refuses to reason. Reason itself informs man of its limitations and, in doing so, directs him to the discovery of a force greater than himself --a supernatural force responsible for the origins of not only human existence but all existence, and which itself has always existed and will always exist. For most, the supernatural reveals itself in the Creator --God. Man seeks God's guidance through faith and prayer. The Agnostic accepts the supernatural, but is not so sure of the form of its existence. The Deist accepts that God created the universe and man's condition but left it to man to sort things out through reason.

--Mark Levin, Liberty and Tyranny.

That sums it up...

That argument just blindly asserted that 'reason leads to discovering a supernatural force' without giving any explanation or elaboration on that. Massive leap of logic. Why exactly does reason demonstrate that the supernatural- and furthermore a creator- exist?

Atheists almost always look for evidence from science. The problem is the tools of science are too primative to prove or disprove God nor is there any scientific field researching God.

So the "proof" that believers have is never accepted and always rejected. Atheists will never find "proof" of God using their own accepted evidence.

[JoeyKnothead]

You asked for reasons they exist OP, which would be evidence they exist. You asked for evidence that they exist. So far as Poseidon goes the sea exists and he is claimed to be the god of the sea, so there is evidence he exists. Plus the fact that people believed in him, which is also evidence.

I gotta go with Moses Yoder for the most part here. Where the OP asks for such an argument, and one is put forth, well there we go.

Of course when considering the evidence involved, this OP gets a bit trickier, but here I'll stick with Moses Yoder again, insofar as what he considers evidence is enough to support his belief / position. He's always up front about it, he doesn't dance around the issue, he tells us what this evidence is, and I contend we're a bit proud to just dismiss it out of hand.

While I may reject the conclusions he's gleaned from his evidence, I can't conclude the man just hopped up out of bed one morning declaring his belief in God.

As I read the OP it seems to imply that there's no evidence for gods. While I agree with such an assessment, I also think it's a bit off to imply theists have come by their beliefs simply 'cause they're some kinda dolt.

My position here is of course dependent on my personal understanding of the issue, and is subject to change upon clarifications and whatnot.

[scourge99]

Hi, I'm new here and I see a lot of active topics on specific concepts where users are already heavily engaged in debate, making it a little hard for me to join in. So to test the waters a little (and to help me decide whether or not to stick around here), let's go back to basics and have a debate about the most fundamental question at hand here: does a god exist?

As a non-believer, I have yet to discover any convincing reason as to why I should believe in a god. So, if a Theist would like to get the ball rolling by giving me a reason why god exists, that would be great.

(PS: unrelated question: what is the general breakdown of belief/non-belief on these forums? Is it an even mix of believers and non-believers, or is there- as tends to happen on the internet- a larger proportion of atheists to Theists?).

Reason cannot, by itself, explain why there is reason. Science cannot, by itself, explan why there is science. Man's descovery and application of science are products of reason.

Reason and science can explain the existence of matter, but cannot explain why there is matter. They can explain the existence of the universe, but they cannot explain why there is a universe. They can xplain the existence of life, but they cannot explain why there is life. They can explain the existence of consciousness, but they cannot explain why there is consciousness.

Science is a critical aspect of human existence, but it cannot address the spiritual nature of man. In theis respect, science is a dead end around which the Atheist refuses to reason. Reason itself informs man of its limitations and, in doing so, directs him to the discovery of a force greater than himself --a supernatural force responsible for the origins of not only human existence but all existence, and which itself has always existed and will always exist. For most, the supernatural reveals itself in the Creator --God. Man seeks God's guidance through faith and prayer. The Agnostic accepts the supernatural, but is not so sure of the form of its existence. The Deist accepts that God created the universe and man's condition but left it to man to sort things out through reason.

--Mark Levin, Liberty and Tyranny.

That sums it up...

A perfect example of how a god becomes the explanation for anything and everything a believer is ignorant about. A god of the gaps.

I.E., a god can be used as an explanation for anything and everything. Thus, if you can't explain or don't know X then a god must be responsible.

[connermt]

Hi, I'm new here and I see a lot of active topics on specific concepts where users are already heavily engaged in debate, making it a little hard for me to join in. So to test the waters a little (and to help me decide whether or not to stick around here), let's go back to basics and have a debate about the most fundamental question at hand here: does a god exist?

As a non-believer, I have yet to discover any convincing reason as to why I should believe in a god. So, if a Theist would like to get the ball rolling by giving me a reason why god exists, that would be great.

(PS: unrelated question: what is the general breakdown of belief/non-belief on these forums? Is it an even mix of believers and non-believers, or is there- as tends to happen on the internet- a larger proportion of atheists to Theists?).

The only arguement which can't be "defeated" is "god exists because I want it to and it fits my lifestyle." This doesn't change the fact that it does or doesn't exists at all however