Allah made it look like Jesus died, but he let someone die in Jesus' place to save Jesus according to the Quran. Isn't that a form of substitutionary death? This is something some Muslims tell me God doesn't do; so, I am confused about this.
The Quran states that the unbelievers plot and scheme with deception but Allah is the "best of deceivers" Some English translations state "the best of planners," in context, however, Allah does best what the unbelievers were doing which was deceiving; so, is Allah to blame for starting Christianity or did he know his deception would cause the birth of a religion that Islam could not comprehend or overcome? For instance, Christianity, IMO, has always been bigger, better and stronger than Islam and always will be!
Did Allah start Christianty?
Moderator: Moderators
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Burninglight
- Guru
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Post #531
Burninglight
QUOTE: "Ibn Kathir proves that is what the Quran means Jesus is the word of Allah. The Quran states that Jesus is not only Allah's word, but also the spirit of Allah. Then in the same verse it contrdicts itself Jesus is no more than a messenger, Sura 4 171; 3 45 lol"
ANSWER: God's Spirit came upon many people other than Jesus (peace be upon him), so your claim that since Jesus (peace be upon him) carried God's spirit, then he must be God himself is nullified. Furthermore Jesus (peace be upon him) is no different to the others who carried God's spirit hence this does not make Jesus (peace be upon him) equal with God.
Numbers 24:2
"When Balaam looked out and saw Israel encamped tribe by tribe, the Spirit of God came upon him"
Judges 3:10
"The Spirit of the LORD came upon him, so that he became Israel's judge and went to war. The LORD gave Cushan-Rishathaim king of Aram into
the hands of Othniel, who overpowered him."
Judges 6:34
"Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet, summoning the Abiezrites to follow him."
Judges 11:29
"Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites."
Moreover Burninglight Quran 4:171 condemns the Christian attitude which raises Jesus (peace be upon him) to an equality with Allah, attributing a physical son to Allah, and inventing the doctrine of the Trinity.
Yes Jesus (peace be upon him) spoke the words of God, lol. Where does it say that Jesus (peace be upon him) is the spirit of Allah?? Where is the contradiction?? I don't see it.
This is the meaning of the verse Quran 3:45 by Ibn Kathir:
This Ayah contains the glad tidings the angels brought to Maryam that she would give birth to a mighty son who will have a great future. Allah said,
(Remember) "when the angels said: "O Maryam! Verily, Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word from Him" - meaning, a son who will come into existence with a word from Allah, Be', and he was. This is the meaning of Allah's statement (about Yahya)
"Believing in the Word from Allah." (3:39), according to the majority of the scholars.
"His name will be Al-Masih, Isa, the son of Maryam" meaning - and he will be known by this name in this life, especially by the believers. Isa was called "Al-Masih'' (the Messiah) because when he touched (Mash) those afflicted with an illness, they would be healed by Allah's leave. Allah's statement,
"Isa, the son of Maryam" - relates Isa to his mother, because he did not have a father.
"Held in honor in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allah." - meaning, he will be a leader and honored by Allah in this life, because of the Law that Allah will reveal to him, sending down the Scripture to him, along with the other bounties that Allah will grant him with. Isa will be honored in the Hereafter and will intercede with Allah, by His leave, on behalf of some people, just as is the case with his brethren the mighty Messengers of Allah, peace be upon them all.
Allah said,
"He will speak to the people, in the cradle and in manhood" meaning - calling to the worship of Allah Alone without partners, while still in the cradle, as a miracle from Allah, and when he is a man, by Allah's revelation to him.
Muhammad bin Ishaq recorded that Abu Hurayrah said that the Messenger of Allah said,
"No infant spoke in the cradle except Isa and the companion of Jurayj."
Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Abu Hurayrah said that the Prophet said,
"No infant spoke in the cradle except three, Isa, the boy during the time of Jurayj, and another boy."
"And he will be one of the righteous" meaning - in his statements and actions, for he will possess, pure knowledge and righteous works.
When Maryam heard the good news that the angels conveyed from Allah, she said;
" O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me.''
Mary said, "How can I have a son while I did not marry, nor intend to marry, nor am I an indecent woman, may Allah forbid'' The angel conveyed to Maryam, Allah's answer,
"So (it will be) for Allah creates what He wills."
He is Mighty in power and nothing escapes His ability. Allah used the word create' here instead of the word does' as in the tale about Zakariyya (3:40), to eradicate any evil thought concerning Isa. Allah next emphasized this fact when He said,
"When He has decreed something, He says to it only: "Be! and it is" - meaning, what Allah wills, comes into existence instantly and without delay. In another Ayah, Allah said
"And Our commandment is but one as the twinkling of an eye." (54:50), meaning, "We only issue the command once, and it comes into existence instantly, as fast as, and faster than, a blink of the eye. ''
QUOTE: "The Quran shows Jesus to be divine and then tries to take it back. For instance, it show Jesus to be Spirit of God, the Messiah, the word of God, shows His virgin birth and His sinless state of being, but these things could not be said of any other prophet including the false prophet Muhammad who Allah found astray and who was told to ask for forgiveness in the Quran"
ANSWER: Where in the Quran does it show Jesus (peace be upon him) to be Devine where Jesus (peace be upon him) has the nature of God?? Where in the Quran does it say that Jesus (peace be upon him) is the spirit of God?? I don't understand how these things you have mentioned has any significance with what we are discussing.
More to the point your understanding of the Holy Spirit Is incorrect, Allah created the Holy Spirit for specific functions not only on this earth, but also perhaps else where in the Universe where we don't know about. But it is in no way God Himself.
In the Quran the Holy Spirit is a creation of God and is under Him just like the Angels, there are many verses in the Quran that refute this claim you are making out though the Holy Spirit is the other part of Allah. To believe that God is of a plurality like that of the trinity is nothing more than blasphemy, hence you have falsely misinterpreted the Quran.
QURAN 97:4
"Therein come down the Angels and the Spirit by God's permission, on every errand"
QURAN 78:38
"The Day that the Spirit and the Angels will stand forth in ranks, none shall speak except any who is permitted by (God) Most Gracious, and He will say what is right"
There is not a single element of truth or evidence in the bible that says that the Holy Spirit is God, actually in the bible we see several types of universal spirits, are all of them part of God also??, Certainly Not!
QUOTE: "Ibn Kathir proves that is what the Quran means Jesus is the word of Allah. The Quran states that Jesus is not only Allah's word, but also the spirit of Allah. Then in the same verse it contrdicts itself Jesus is no more than a messenger, Sura 4 171; 3 45 lol"
ANSWER: God's Spirit came upon many people other than Jesus (peace be upon him), so your claim that since Jesus (peace be upon him) carried God's spirit, then he must be God himself is nullified. Furthermore Jesus (peace be upon him) is no different to the others who carried God's spirit hence this does not make Jesus (peace be upon him) equal with God.
Numbers 24:2
"When Balaam looked out and saw Israel encamped tribe by tribe, the Spirit of God came upon him"
Judges 3:10
"The Spirit of the LORD came upon him, so that he became Israel's judge and went to war. The LORD gave Cushan-Rishathaim king of Aram into
the hands of Othniel, who overpowered him."
Judges 6:34
"Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet, summoning the Abiezrites to follow him."
Judges 11:29
"Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites."
Moreover Burninglight Quran 4:171 condemns the Christian attitude which raises Jesus (peace be upon him) to an equality with Allah, attributing a physical son to Allah, and inventing the doctrine of the Trinity.
Yes Jesus (peace be upon him) spoke the words of God, lol. Where does it say that Jesus (peace be upon him) is the spirit of Allah?? Where is the contradiction?? I don't see it.
This is the meaning of the verse Quran 3:45 by Ibn Kathir:
This Ayah contains the glad tidings the angels brought to Maryam that she would give birth to a mighty son who will have a great future. Allah said,
(Remember) "when the angels said: "O Maryam! Verily, Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word from Him" - meaning, a son who will come into existence with a word from Allah, Be', and he was. This is the meaning of Allah's statement (about Yahya)
"Believing in the Word from Allah." (3:39), according to the majority of the scholars.
"His name will be Al-Masih, Isa, the son of Maryam" meaning - and he will be known by this name in this life, especially by the believers. Isa was called "Al-Masih'' (the Messiah) because when he touched (Mash) those afflicted with an illness, they would be healed by Allah's leave. Allah's statement,
"Isa, the son of Maryam" - relates Isa to his mother, because he did not have a father.
"Held in honor in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allah." - meaning, he will be a leader and honored by Allah in this life, because of the Law that Allah will reveal to him, sending down the Scripture to him, along with the other bounties that Allah will grant him with. Isa will be honored in the Hereafter and will intercede with Allah, by His leave, on behalf of some people, just as is the case with his brethren the mighty Messengers of Allah, peace be upon them all.
Allah said,
"He will speak to the people, in the cradle and in manhood" meaning - calling to the worship of Allah Alone without partners, while still in the cradle, as a miracle from Allah, and when he is a man, by Allah's revelation to him.
Muhammad bin Ishaq recorded that Abu Hurayrah said that the Messenger of Allah said,
"No infant spoke in the cradle except Isa and the companion of Jurayj."
Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Abu Hurayrah said that the Prophet said,
"No infant spoke in the cradle except three, Isa, the boy during the time of Jurayj, and another boy."
"And he will be one of the righteous" meaning - in his statements and actions, for he will possess, pure knowledge and righteous works.
When Maryam heard the good news that the angels conveyed from Allah, she said;
" O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me.''
Mary said, "How can I have a son while I did not marry, nor intend to marry, nor am I an indecent woman, may Allah forbid'' The angel conveyed to Maryam, Allah's answer,
"So (it will be) for Allah creates what He wills."
He is Mighty in power and nothing escapes His ability. Allah used the word create' here instead of the word does' as in the tale about Zakariyya (3:40), to eradicate any evil thought concerning Isa. Allah next emphasized this fact when He said,
"When He has decreed something, He says to it only: "Be! and it is" - meaning, what Allah wills, comes into existence instantly and without delay. In another Ayah, Allah said
"And Our commandment is but one as the twinkling of an eye." (54:50), meaning, "We only issue the command once, and it comes into existence instantly, as fast as, and faster than, a blink of the eye. ''
QUOTE: "The Quran shows Jesus to be divine and then tries to take it back. For instance, it show Jesus to be Spirit of God, the Messiah, the word of God, shows His virgin birth and His sinless state of being, but these things could not be said of any other prophet including the false prophet Muhammad who Allah found astray and who was told to ask for forgiveness in the Quran"
ANSWER: Where in the Quran does it show Jesus (peace be upon him) to be Devine where Jesus (peace be upon him) has the nature of God?? Where in the Quran does it say that Jesus (peace be upon him) is the spirit of God?? I don't understand how these things you have mentioned has any significance with what we are discussing.
More to the point your understanding of the Holy Spirit Is incorrect, Allah created the Holy Spirit for specific functions not only on this earth, but also perhaps else where in the Universe where we don't know about. But it is in no way God Himself.
In the Quran the Holy Spirit is a creation of God and is under Him just like the Angels, there are many verses in the Quran that refute this claim you are making out though the Holy Spirit is the other part of Allah. To believe that God is of a plurality like that of the trinity is nothing more than blasphemy, hence you have falsely misinterpreted the Quran.
QURAN 97:4
"Therein come down the Angels and the Spirit by God's permission, on every errand"
QURAN 78:38
"The Day that the Spirit and the Angels will stand forth in ranks, none shall speak except any who is permitted by (God) Most Gracious, and He will say what is right"
There is not a single element of truth or evidence in the bible that says that the Holy Spirit is God, actually in the bible we see several types of universal spirits, are all of them part of God also??, Certainly Not!
Post #532
Burninglight
QUOTE: "The Quran says Jesus is the word of God and the Messiah. Thus, by saying that Jesus is the Messiah, the Quran has duly given Jesus a title which implies that he is the very person that the Quran is otherwise at such pains to deny"the Son of God himself"
ANSWER: Jesus (peace be upon him) spoke the words of God, he is not God. Again you are giving your own interpretations to the verses in the Quran without any evidence, I don't understand how Jesus (peace be upon him) can be considered the son of God by calling Jesus (peace be upon him) "the Messiah"??? It is very clear what this means as proven in my above post by Ibn Kathir.
QUOTE: "I know the Bible says God is not a man that He should lie. This is not a witness against the truth i share. Jesus is God's word made flesh. Like I said Jesus is all that God is but not all there is to God. God is Spirit no one can see Him! "
ANSWER: Yes, according to A Philo of Alexandria God's word was made flesh not according to
God. Lol.
QUOTE: "When the Quran calls Him Messiah they are calling Him the son of the living God. Look, Over 300 Old Testament prophecies speak of the coming Messiah ("Christ") and describe him as a man that stands above all other men, including the other prophets of God, and that he would have a regality, majesty, splendor and excellence above all other men. Indeed, he would have divine attributes. Jewish believers in Jesus used the term Messiah and Son of God interchangeably. For example, Peter, one of the first Jewish followers of Jesus said, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God (Matthew 16:16)." Nathaniel (John 1:49), Mark (Mark 1:1), and Martha (John 11:27) are examples of others who used the terms Messiah and Son of God interchangeably. Caiaphas, the Jewish High Priest also used the terms Messiah and Son of God together. When Jesus was on trial, Caiaphas asked Jesus, "I adjure you, by the living God, tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God (Matthew 26:63)."
ANSWER: The Quran clearly refuses the idea that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God's son and warns against such a thing using, the term "son of God" does not mean anything nor do these verses you have quoted, the Torah is said to be God's "daughter" therefore the use of "Son of God" today in the english bibles don't mean more than a "Creation of God" or "Servant of God" as known in Hebrew. It doesn't at all mean that the individual is part of God, or he is God the Father Himself.The Son of God's main responsibility is to serve God and to worship Him alone.
QUOTE: "Even demons recognized him in this way. They knew him from all eternity as the eternal Son from the Father and recognized him in human form when he commanded them with authority to depart: "And demons also came out of many, crying, 'You are the Son of God!' But he rebuked them, and would not allow them to speak, because they knew that he was the Messiah (Luke 4:41)."
ANSWER: Lol, this verse (4:41) we find Jesus (peace be upon him) rejecting the title "Son of God" and that is why the Quran rejects the sonship of Jesus (peace be upon him) because it's entirely pagan. Moreover there is many proof in history that many other beings, whom Christians regard as men, were honored and addressed by the same titles, such as God, Lord, Savior, Redeemer, Mediator, Messiah, etc. Therefore we cannot simply add things to the religion of God.Jesus (peace be upon him) refused to be called the "Son of God" by demons. Do you think that Jesus (peace be upon him) would rebuke the demons, or anyone else for that matter, for telling the truth?
Jesus (peace be upon him) rebuked the demons because they were saying something false by calling him the "Son of God". Also, if the demons knew that Jesus (peace be upon him) was the Christ, this would be a contradiction to Jesus mission.
QUOTE: "Only Muslims can't see this is true, because they have been blinded by the master and best of deceivers"
ANSWER: Every person has free will to seek and learn the truth for themselves, the truth lies with no other than Islam . I suggest you take the advice of John, even he knew what the reality was concerning Jesus (peace be upon him).
"These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men" (John 15:8-9)
QUOTE: "The Quran says Jesus is the word of God and the Messiah. Thus, by saying that Jesus is the Messiah, the Quran has duly given Jesus a title which implies that he is the very person that the Quran is otherwise at such pains to deny"the Son of God himself"
ANSWER: Jesus (peace be upon him) spoke the words of God, he is not God. Again you are giving your own interpretations to the verses in the Quran without any evidence, I don't understand how Jesus (peace be upon him) can be considered the son of God by calling Jesus (peace be upon him) "the Messiah"??? It is very clear what this means as proven in my above post by Ibn Kathir.
QUOTE: "I know the Bible says God is not a man that He should lie. This is not a witness against the truth i share. Jesus is God's word made flesh. Like I said Jesus is all that God is but not all there is to God. God is Spirit no one can see Him! "
ANSWER: Yes, according to A Philo of Alexandria God's word was made flesh not according to
God. Lol.
QUOTE: "When the Quran calls Him Messiah they are calling Him the son of the living God. Look, Over 300 Old Testament prophecies speak of the coming Messiah ("Christ") and describe him as a man that stands above all other men, including the other prophets of God, and that he would have a regality, majesty, splendor and excellence above all other men. Indeed, he would have divine attributes. Jewish believers in Jesus used the term Messiah and Son of God interchangeably. For example, Peter, one of the first Jewish followers of Jesus said, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God (Matthew 16:16)." Nathaniel (John 1:49), Mark (Mark 1:1), and Martha (John 11:27) are examples of others who used the terms Messiah and Son of God interchangeably. Caiaphas, the Jewish High Priest also used the terms Messiah and Son of God together. When Jesus was on trial, Caiaphas asked Jesus, "I adjure you, by the living God, tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God (Matthew 26:63)."
ANSWER: The Quran clearly refuses the idea that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God's son and warns against such a thing using, the term "son of God" does not mean anything nor do these verses you have quoted, the Torah is said to be God's "daughter" therefore the use of "Son of God" today in the english bibles don't mean more than a "Creation of God" or "Servant of God" as known in Hebrew. It doesn't at all mean that the individual is part of God, or he is God the Father Himself.The Son of God's main responsibility is to serve God and to worship Him alone.
QUOTE: "Even demons recognized him in this way. They knew him from all eternity as the eternal Son from the Father and recognized him in human form when he commanded them with authority to depart: "And demons also came out of many, crying, 'You are the Son of God!' But he rebuked them, and would not allow them to speak, because they knew that he was the Messiah (Luke 4:41)."
ANSWER: Lol, this verse (4:41) we find Jesus (peace be upon him) rejecting the title "Son of God" and that is why the Quran rejects the sonship of Jesus (peace be upon him) because it's entirely pagan. Moreover there is many proof in history that many other beings, whom Christians regard as men, were honored and addressed by the same titles, such as God, Lord, Savior, Redeemer, Mediator, Messiah, etc. Therefore we cannot simply add things to the religion of God.Jesus (peace be upon him) refused to be called the "Son of God" by demons. Do you think that Jesus (peace be upon him) would rebuke the demons, or anyone else for that matter, for telling the truth?
Jesus (peace be upon him) rebuked the demons because they were saying something false by calling him the "Son of God". Also, if the demons knew that Jesus (peace be upon him) was the Christ, this would be a contradiction to Jesus mission.
QUOTE: "Only Muslims can't see this is true, because they have been blinded by the master and best of deceivers"
ANSWER: Every person has free will to seek and learn the truth for themselves, the truth lies with no other than Islam . I suggest you take the advice of John, even he knew what the reality was concerning Jesus (peace be upon him).
"These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men" (John 15:8-9)
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Burninglight
- Guru
- Posts: 1202
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:40 am
Post #533
Correction, Jesus is the word of God as stated in the Quran, and the Bible is all the prove anyone needs or is going to get that He is, and He is the Messiah! God said, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased; hear ye Him." People ignore this to their own peril.HaLi8993 wrote: Burninglight
QUOTE: "The Quran says Jesus is the word of God and the Messiah. Thus, by saying that Jesus is the Messiah, the Quran has duly given Jesus a title which implies that he is the very person that the Quran is otherwise at such pains to deny"the Son of God himself"
ANSWER: Jesus (peace be upon him) spoke the words of God, he is not God. Again you are giving your own interpretations to the verses in the Quran without any evidence, I don't understand how Jesus (peace be upon him) can be considered the son of God by calling Jesus (peace be upon him) "the Messiah"??? It is very clear what this means as proven in my above post by Ibn Kathir.
Post #534
Burninglight
QUOTE: "Correction, Jesus is the word of God as stated in the Quran, and the Bible is all the prove anyone needs or is going to get that He is, and He is the Messiah! God said, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased; hear ye Him." People ignore this to their own peril"
ANSWER: Jesus (peace be upon him) spoke the words of God. You still haven't provided me the verse in the Quran you are referring too, maybe because there is no verse in the Quran that states that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God. Islam rejects the concept of trinity, it also rejects any form of equality with God. As I have proven already the term son of God doesn't mean much at all. What is the value of God indicating his pleasure in Christ in Matthew 3:17, if Christ was God himself? And what had Christ supposedly achieved here, if he was God and it was impossible for him by nature to sin or do wrong?
Jesus (peace be upon him) being called the Messiah is a title of honor, secondly no where in the Quran is the term Messiah reffered to as God, there is no concept of the Messiah being God in Islam.
Even in Christianity being the Messiah doesnt make you God. This definition of Messiah means the annoited one, the saviour, the one who came and saved the Jews. The Messiah does not mean God. Even in Judaism it does not mean God. So where are Christians getting this from??
The exaggeration of Jesus (peace be upon him) has lead to his elevation above that of which God gave him. He has been elevated from the rank of prophethood to being a god, whom is now worshipped just as they worshipped God. Moreover exaggeration of his followers has lead to the claim that they were inspired, thus following every word they uttered whether true or false, be it guidance or misguidance, truth or lies. Therefore there is absolutely no evidence that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God nor the son of God.
QUOTE: "Correction, Jesus is the word of God as stated in the Quran, and the Bible is all the prove anyone needs or is going to get that He is, and He is the Messiah! God said, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased; hear ye Him." People ignore this to their own peril"
ANSWER: Jesus (peace be upon him) spoke the words of God. You still haven't provided me the verse in the Quran you are referring too, maybe because there is no verse in the Quran that states that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God. Islam rejects the concept of trinity, it also rejects any form of equality with God. As I have proven already the term son of God doesn't mean much at all. What is the value of God indicating his pleasure in Christ in Matthew 3:17, if Christ was God himself? And what had Christ supposedly achieved here, if he was God and it was impossible for him by nature to sin or do wrong?
Jesus (peace be upon him) being called the Messiah is a title of honor, secondly no where in the Quran is the term Messiah reffered to as God, there is no concept of the Messiah being God in Islam.
Even in Christianity being the Messiah doesnt make you God. This definition of Messiah means the annoited one, the saviour, the one who came and saved the Jews. The Messiah does not mean God. Even in Judaism it does not mean God. So where are Christians getting this from??
The exaggeration of Jesus (peace be upon him) has lead to his elevation above that of which God gave him. He has been elevated from the rank of prophethood to being a god, whom is now worshipped just as they worshipped God. Moreover exaggeration of his followers has lead to the claim that they were inspired, thus following every word they uttered whether true or false, be it guidance or misguidance, truth or lies. Therefore there is absolutely no evidence that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God nor the son of God.
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Burninglight
- Guru
- Posts: 1202
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:40 am
Post #535
First of all Jesus nevers said I am God worship me nor does anyone in the Bible say Jesus is God, but It also says in the Bible don't be like the ox who has to be led around with a bit and bridle. We know from Scripture that Jesus is the word of God (Allah) S 4 171 and in Jn 1: 1 We know from the Bible that the word was with God and was God. We know the word of God is eternal and therefore uncreated. We know Jesus said "I am the light of the world" Jn 8: 12 that light was not just for the Jews. They were the first He came to give the message to, but not the only ones the message was meant for.HaLi8993 wrote: Burninglight
QUOTE: "Correction, Jesus is the word of God as stated in the Quran, and the Bible is all the prove anyone needs or is going to get that He is, and He is the Messiah! God said, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased; hear ye Him." People ignore this to their own peril"
ANSWER: Jesus (peace be upon him) spoke the words of God. You still haven't provided me the verse in the Quran you are referring too, maybe because there is no verse in the Quran that states that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God. Islam rejects the concept of trinity, it also rejects any form of equality with God. As I have proven already the term son of God doesn't mean much at all. What is the value of God indicating his pleasure in Christ in Matthew 3:17, if Christ was God himself? And what had Christ supposedly achieved here, if he was God and it was impossible for him by nature to sin or do wrong?
Jesus (peace be upon him) being called the Messiah is a title of honor, secondly no where in the Quran is the term Messiah reffered to as God, there is no concept of the Messiah being God in Islam.
Even in Christianity being the Messiah doesnt make you God. This definition of Messiah means the annoited one, the saviour, the one who came and saved the Jews. The Messiah does not mean God. Even in Judaism it does not mean God. So where are Christians getting this from??
The exaggeration of Jesus (peace be upon him) has lead to his elevation above that of which God gave him. He has been elevated from the rank of prophethood to being a god, whom is now worshipped just as they worshipped God. Moreover exaggeration of his followers has lead to the claim that they were inspired, thus following every word they uttered whether true or false, be it guidance or misguidance, truth or lies. Therefore there is absolutely no evidence that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God nor the son of God.
Jesus is special compared to all other prophets, Look at his virgin birth, look at His title Messiah look at what Jesus said about Himself and other prophets said about Him in the Bible. Jesus is the word of God the word of God the word of God cannot be destroyed or changed Jesus was before Abraham. Jesus said you will die in your sins if you do not believe I am He. Everyone has to decide who Jesus is to them. I cannot tell you what to believe about Jesus, but I believe Him when He said "No one comes to the father except through me" I Believe when He said I am the way... He didn't say I come to show the way. No other prophet claimed to be the way, truth and life. No one did that. Jesus did,and He said, "I and the father are one" Allah lied in the Quran and Jesus tells the truth in the Bible. Allah didn't understand the Christian concept of the trinity so I don't trust him! Jesus is coming back to judge the living and the dead
Post #536
Burninglight
QUOTE: First of all Jesus nevers said I am God worship me nor does anyone in the Bible say Jesus is God, but It also says in the Bible don't be like the ox who has to be led around with a bit and bridle. We know from Scripture that Jesus is the word of God (Allah) S 4 171 and in Jn 1: 1 We know from the Bible that the word was with God and was God. We know the word of God is eternal and therefore uncreated. We know Jesus said "I am the light of the world" Jn 8: 12 that light was not just for the Jews. They were the first He came to give the message to, but not the only ones the message was meant for.
ANSWER: No where in the Gospel does God command the belief in the trinity either. In this verse (4:171) Jesus (peace be upon him) was not the word. Rather Jesus (peace be upon him) came to existence because of the word.
Either John 8:12 is wrong or the earlier Gospels, where we see that Jesus (peace be upon him) was specifically sent to the children of Israel:
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
In Matthew 10:5-6 Jesus (peace be upon him) even tells his disciples to go to the children of Israel lol.
Matthew 10:5-6
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Furthermore we see a modification in the Gospel of John because Jesus (peace be upon him) tells his disciples to not go to the Gentiles, he wants to make it seem that Jesus (peace be upon him) was sent for everyone when he clearly wasnt, nor did he tell his disciples to go to the gentiles. So now Burninglight who is deceiving who??
QUOTE: "Jesus is special compared to all other prophets, Look at his virgin birth, look at His title Messiah look at what Jesus said about Himself and other prophets said about Him in the Bible. Jesus is the word of God the word of God the word of God cannot be destroyed or changed Jesus was before Abraham. Jesus said you will die in your sins if you do not believe I am He. Everyone has to decide who Jesus is to them. I cannot tell you what to believe about Jesus, but I believe Him when He said "No one comes to the father except through me" I Believe when He said I am the way... He didn't say I come to show the way. No other prophet claimed to be the way, truth and life. No one did that. Jesus did,and He said, "I and the father are one" Allah lied in the Quran and Jesus tells the truth in the Bible. Allah didn't understand the Christian concept of the trinity so I don't trust him! Jesus is coming back to judge the living and the dead"
ANSWER: Yes, Jesus (peace be upon him) is special but so too were other Prophets, seems to me the word of God Jesus (peace be upon him) spoke has been changed and rejected by the Gospel of Paul.
Angels existed before Abraham also does that make them God in anyway??, if Jesus (peace be upon him) existed before Abraham does that make him God in anyway?? Certainly Not!. They existed before the world was created. Does it make them God? Jesus (peace be upon him) was with God before Abraham (peace be upon him) , in the knowledge of God as we all were there. Jeremiah is an example that was said to have been made a Prophet before his birth. The Bible says:
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. (Jeremiah 1:5)
In Islam, we believe in a similar thing. The Quran says:
QURAN: 7:172
When thy Lord drew forth from the Children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants, and made them testify concerning themselves, (saying): "Am I not your Lord (who cherishes and sustains you)?"- They said: "Yea! We do testify!" (This), lest ye should say on the Day of Judgment: "Of this we were never mindful"
Every person has to decide who Jesus (peace be upon him) is according to God, you are giving your own interpretations without any evidence. If you would only read a few lines before this in John 14:1-5 you would realize that Jesus (peace be upon him) is talking about God. Verse 2 gives the answer. Jesus (peace be upon him) says In my FATHERS house. He is talking about going to paradise, he is talking about spiritual matters, they are thinking of some geographical location. So Jesus (peace be upon him) gives the reply:
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Hence he is the way to God. Every Prophet during his time was the way to God. At the time of Moses (peace be upon him) he was the way to God that is all. At the time of Noah (peace be upon him) he was the way to God. At the time of Jesus (peace be upon him) he was the way to God. But today, its the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), he is the way to All-Mighty God.
When Jesus (peace be upon him) said "I and the father are one" it is one in purpose. Jesus (peace be upon him) is saying that once the person has believed. God and I both see to it that the person remains in faith. In purpose, they both are one. Not in Trinity. Lol. The Quran tells us the truth in regards to the falsehood created by humans about Jesus (peace be upon him), your right when Jesus (peace be upon him) comes back all will be made clear.
QUOTE: First of all Jesus nevers said I am God worship me nor does anyone in the Bible say Jesus is God, but It also says in the Bible don't be like the ox who has to be led around with a bit and bridle. We know from Scripture that Jesus is the word of God (Allah) S 4 171 and in Jn 1: 1 We know from the Bible that the word was with God and was God. We know the word of God is eternal and therefore uncreated. We know Jesus said "I am the light of the world" Jn 8: 12 that light was not just for the Jews. They were the first He came to give the message to, but not the only ones the message was meant for.
ANSWER: No where in the Gospel does God command the belief in the trinity either. In this verse (4:171) Jesus (peace be upon him) was not the word. Rather Jesus (peace be upon him) came to existence because of the word.
Either John 8:12 is wrong or the earlier Gospels, where we see that Jesus (peace be upon him) was specifically sent to the children of Israel:
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
In Matthew 10:5-6 Jesus (peace be upon him) even tells his disciples to go to the children of Israel lol.
Matthew 10:5-6
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Furthermore we see a modification in the Gospel of John because Jesus (peace be upon him) tells his disciples to not go to the Gentiles, he wants to make it seem that Jesus (peace be upon him) was sent for everyone when he clearly wasnt, nor did he tell his disciples to go to the gentiles. So now Burninglight who is deceiving who??
QUOTE: "Jesus is special compared to all other prophets, Look at his virgin birth, look at His title Messiah look at what Jesus said about Himself and other prophets said about Him in the Bible. Jesus is the word of God the word of God the word of God cannot be destroyed or changed Jesus was before Abraham. Jesus said you will die in your sins if you do not believe I am He. Everyone has to decide who Jesus is to them. I cannot tell you what to believe about Jesus, but I believe Him when He said "No one comes to the father except through me" I Believe when He said I am the way... He didn't say I come to show the way. No other prophet claimed to be the way, truth and life. No one did that. Jesus did,and He said, "I and the father are one" Allah lied in the Quran and Jesus tells the truth in the Bible. Allah didn't understand the Christian concept of the trinity so I don't trust him! Jesus is coming back to judge the living and the dead"
ANSWER: Yes, Jesus (peace be upon him) is special but so too were other Prophets, seems to me the word of God Jesus (peace be upon him) spoke has been changed and rejected by the Gospel of Paul.
Angels existed before Abraham also does that make them God in anyway??, if Jesus (peace be upon him) existed before Abraham does that make him God in anyway?? Certainly Not!. They existed before the world was created. Does it make them God? Jesus (peace be upon him) was with God before Abraham (peace be upon him) , in the knowledge of God as we all were there. Jeremiah is an example that was said to have been made a Prophet before his birth. The Bible says:
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. (Jeremiah 1:5)
In Islam, we believe in a similar thing. The Quran says:
QURAN: 7:172
When thy Lord drew forth from the Children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants, and made them testify concerning themselves, (saying): "Am I not your Lord (who cherishes and sustains you)?"- They said: "Yea! We do testify!" (This), lest ye should say on the Day of Judgment: "Of this we were never mindful"
Every person has to decide who Jesus (peace be upon him) is according to God, you are giving your own interpretations without any evidence. If you would only read a few lines before this in John 14:1-5 you would realize that Jesus (peace be upon him) is talking about God. Verse 2 gives the answer. Jesus (peace be upon him) says In my FATHERS house. He is talking about going to paradise, he is talking about spiritual matters, they are thinking of some geographical location. So Jesus (peace be upon him) gives the reply:
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Hence he is the way to God. Every Prophet during his time was the way to God. At the time of Moses (peace be upon him) he was the way to God that is all. At the time of Noah (peace be upon him) he was the way to God. At the time of Jesus (peace be upon him) he was the way to God. But today, its the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), he is the way to All-Mighty God.
When Jesus (peace be upon him) said "I and the father are one" it is one in purpose. Jesus (peace be upon him) is saying that once the person has believed. God and I both see to it that the person remains in faith. In purpose, they both are one. Not in Trinity. Lol. The Quran tells us the truth in regards to the falsehood created by humans about Jesus (peace be upon him), your right when Jesus (peace be upon him) comes back all will be made clear.
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Burninglight
- Guru
- Posts: 1202
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:40 am
Post #537
HaLi8993 wrote: Burninglight
QUOTE: First of all Jesus nevers said I am God worship me nor does anyone in the Bible say Jesus is God, but It also says in the Bible don't be like the ox who has to be led around with a bit and bridle. We know from Scripture that Jesus is the word of God (Allah) S 4 171 and in Jn 1: 1 We know from the Bible that the word was with God and was God. We know the word of God is eternal and therefore uncreated. We know Jesus said "I am the light of the world" Jn 8: 12 that light was not just for the Jews. They were the first He came to give the message to, but not the only ones the message was meant for.When Jesus said no one comes to the father except through me, He wasn't referring to just the Jews. The Jews were suppose to carry the Message (who is Jesus) to the world, but since they rejected Him, God invited all who would come. I am one of them. Jesus commissioned the great apostle Paul (PBUH) to reach the gentiles with the love of Christ.HaLi8993 wrote:
ANSWER: No where in the Gospel does God command the belief in the trinity either. In this verse (4:171) Jesus (peace be upon him) was not the word. Rather Jesus (peace be upon him) came to existence because of the word.
Either John 8:12 is wrong or the earlier Gospels, where we see that Jesus (peace be upon him) was specifically sent to the children of Israel:
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
In Matthew 10:5-6 Jesus (peace be upon him) even tells his disciples to go to the children of Israel lol.
Matthew 10:5-6
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Furthermore we see a modification in the Gospel of John because Jesus (peace be upon him) tells his disciples to not go to the Gentiles, he wants to make it seem that Jesus (peace be upon him) was sent for everyone when he clearly wasnt, nor did he tell his disciples to go to the gentiles. So now Burninglight who is deceiving who?? .
Muslims mention trinity more than Christians. Of course, the apostles weren't told to preach the trinity. The word doesn't exist in the Bible, but the concept is there and that is not the message we are to share. Muslims are obsessed with the word trinity not the Christians. lol
QUOTE: "Jesus is more special compared to all other prophets, Look at his virgin birth, look at His title Messiah look at what Jesus said about Himself and other prophets said about Him in the Bible. Jesus is the word of God the word of God the word of God cannot be destroyed or changed Jesus was before Abraham. Jesus said you will die in your sins if you do not believe I am He. Everyone has to decide who Jesus is to them. I cannot tell you what to believe about Jesus, but I believe Him when He said "No one comes to the father except through me" I Believe when He said I am the way... He didn't say I come to show the way. No other prophet claimed to be the way, truth and life. No one did that. Jesus did,and He said, "I and the father are one" Allah lied in the Quran and Jesus tells the truth in the Bible. Allah didn't understand the Christian concept of the trinity so I don't trust him! Jesus is coming back to judge the living and the dead"Angels are not human. That doesn't count. Besides the word of God was before angels. Jesus is also the word God used to speak angels into existence. Jesus was before all things seen and unseen.HaLi8993 wrote:
ANSWER: Yes, Jesus (peace be upon him) is special but so too were other Prophets, seems to me the word of God Jesus (peace be upon him) spoke has been changed and rejected by the Gospel of Paul.
Angels existed before Abraham also does that make them God in anyway??, if Jesus (peace be upon him) existed before Abraham does that make him God in anyway?? Certainly Not!. They existed before the world was created. Does it make them God? Jesus (peace be upon him) was with God before Abraham (peace be upon him) , in the knowledge of God as we all were there. Jeremiah is an example that was said to have been made a Prophet before his birth. The Bible says:.
Again, sigh, Jesus didn't say I show the way like other prophets, He said "I am the way..." I am surprise you can't see the difference. You have obviously been program with pat answers that all prophets were the truth and the way for their time. No prophet ever said I am the the way, truth and life! Being the way, life and the truth is different than showing it. You are tricking and deluding yourself to believe that Jesus is not your only hope of salvation. Your Quran says Jesus is the word and so does the Bible; read it carefully. The word of God is eternal and uncreated and that is the difference between all other prophets and Jesus Christ the son of the living God. Jesus is all that God is but not all there is to God. Jesus came to save us from our sin. Know Jesus; know life - No Jesus; No life! If the Quran didn't slip up by saying Jesus is the word; your argument would be stronger. In spite of Allah's deception, the truth slipped out in the Quran that Jesus is the word of Allah (God). I love it! Holy eternal Jesus to Him be all the praise and glory; May the deceptions of the enemy be silenced and Jesus received the reward of His suffering, Amen!!!!!HaLi8993 wrote:
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Hence he is the way to God. Every Prophet during his time was the way to God. At the time of Moses (peace be upon him) he was the way to God that is all. At the time of Noah (peace be upon him) he was the way to God. At the time of Jesus (peace be upon him) he was the way to God. But today, its the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), he is the way to All-Mighty God.
When Jesus (peace be upon him) said "I and the father are one" it is one in purpose. Jesus (peace be upon him) is saying that once the person has believed. God and I both see to it that the person remains in faith. In purpose, they both are one. Not in Trinity. Lol. The Quran tells us the truth in regards to the falsehood created by humans about Jesus (peace be upon him), your right when Jesus (peace be upon him) comes back all will be made clear.
Post #538
Burninglight
QUOTE: "When Jesus said no one comes to the father except through me, He wasn't referring to just the Jews. The Jews were suppose to carry the Message (who is Jesus) to the world, but since they rejected Him, God invited all who would come. I am one of them. Jesus commissioned the great apostle Paul (PBUH) to reach the gentiles with the love of Christ.
Muslims mention trinity more than Christians. Of course, the apostles weren't told to preach the trinity. The word doesn't exist in the Bible, but the concept is there and that is not the message we are to share. Muslims are obsessed with the word trinity not the Christians. lol"
ANSWER: Jesus (peace be upon him) was not sent to all of mankind, Christians want to claim he had but this is not true, if you feel he had come for all of mankind your going to have to prove it. In the Gospel of Matthew It says:
"I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel"
Paul did not wish to know what Jesus' true teachings were. Obviously if he did, then his teachings would not be contradictory. According to the bible Paul clearly goes against the teachings of Jesus (peace be upon him). How could Jesus (peace be upon him) commission Paul to reach people when Paul never met Jesus (peace be upon him) in his lifetime. Before his self claimed apostleship, his name was Saul and he used to be a murderer of the true believers. Paul has introduced his own concept of what Christianity is.
Again you need to support your claims that Muslims believe in the Trinity and such a thing exists in the original Gospel that Jesus (peace be upon him) came with.
QUOTE: "Angels are not human. That doesn't count. Besides the word of God was before angels. Jesus is also the word God used to speak angels into existence. Jesus was before all things seen and unseen"
ANSWER: I could say Angels came in the form of a human, why wouldn't it count, according to your understanding and logic it does count. There is only one word of God and that is from God All-Mighty. Jesus (peace be upon him) is not God nor is he equal with God, he proclaims the word of God.
Can you show me where in the bible it uses Jesus' name explicitly to refer to these two points below:
1) "Jesus is also the word God used to speak angels into existence"
2) Jesus (peace be upon him) was before all things seen and unseen.
God All-Mighty is the Creator of everything including the Universe, Jesus (peace be upon him) is a Creation of God All-Mighty whom his followers will receive salvation through the message that he brought down from God not the worship of him or associating partners or coequals with him claiming he is Devine and part of God.
Your own scripture makes a distinction between God and Jesus (peace be upon him), In 1 Corinthians 8:6 the difference between "FROM" whom all things came and "THROUGH" whom it came are clearly two separate things.
1 Corinthians 8:6
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, "FROM" whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, "THROUGH" whom all things came and through whom we live.
QUOTE: "Again, sigh, Jesus didn't say I show the way like other prophets, He said "I am the way..." I am surprise you can't see the difference. You have obviously been program with pat answers that all prophets were the truth and the way for their time. No prophet ever said I am the the way, truth and life! Being the way, life and the truth is different than showing it. You are tricking and deluding yourself to believe that Jesus is not your only hope of salvation. Your Quran says Jesus is the word and so does the Bible; read it carefully. The word of God is eternal and uncreated and that is the difference between all other prophets and Jesus Christ the son of the living God. Jesus is all that God is but not all there is to God. Jesus came to save us from our sin. Know Jesus; know life - No Jesus; No life! If the Quran didn't slip up by saying Jesus is the word; your argument would be stronger. In spite of Allah's deception, the truth slipped out in the Quran that Jesus is the word of Allah (God). I love it! Holy eternal Jesus to Him be all the praise and glory; May the deceptions of the enemy be silenced and Jesus received the reward of His suffering, Amen!!!!!"
ANSWER: Yes he was the way at the time. So are you saying that other Prophets (peace be upon them all) were not the truth and the way?? Why would other Prophets need to say this? The only way to earn Paradise Burninglight is obeying what God commands of you, God has not commanded the belief in Jesus Christ as God who died on the cross for your sins, the Old Testament refutes this claim that salvation can only be achieved through this belief. Burninglight I have already explained to you what the meaning of the verse in the Quran means you need to prove it is in conjunction to what you are claiming, which you cannot. We need to save ourselves from our sins lol, no one can do that on your behalf. And then you wander why Christians are associating partners with God, calling Jesus (peace be upon him) "Holy" did Jesus (peace be upon him) ever say he was "Holy" or attribute to himself divinity?? Certainly Not! Jesus is, was and never will be God.
QUOTE: "When Jesus said no one comes to the father except through me, He wasn't referring to just the Jews. The Jews were suppose to carry the Message (who is Jesus) to the world, but since they rejected Him, God invited all who would come. I am one of them. Jesus commissioned the great apostle Paul (PBUH) to reach the gentiles with the love of Christ.
Muslims mention trinity more than Christians. Of course, the apostles weren't told to preach the trinity. The word doesn't exist in the Bible, but the concept is there and that is not the message we are to share. Muslims are obsessed with the word trinity not the Christians. lol"
ANSWER: Jesus (peace be upon him) was not sent to all of mankind, Christians want to claim he had but this is not true, if you feel he had come for all of mankind your going to have to prove it. In the Gospel of Matthew It says:
"I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel"
Paul did not wish to know what Jesus' true teachings were. Obviously if he did, then his teachings would not be contradictory. According to the bible Paul clearly goes against the teachings of Jesus (peace be upon him). How could Jesus (peace be upon him) commission Paul to reach people when Paul never met Jesus (peace be upon him) in his lifetime. Before his self claimed apostleship, his name was Saul and he used to be a murderer of the true believers. Paul has introduced his own concept of what Christianity is.
Again you need to support your claims that Muslims believe in the Trinity and such a thing exists in the original Gospel that Jesus (peace be upon him) came with.
QUOTE: "Angels are not human. That doesn't count. Besides the word of God was before angels. Jesus is also the word God used to speak angels into existence. Jesus was before all things seen and unseen"
ANSWER: I could say Angels came in the form of a human, why wouldn't it count, according to your understanding and logic it does count. There is only one word of God and that is from God All-Mighty. Jesus (peace be upon him) is not God nor is he equal with God, he proclaims the word of God.
Can you show me where in the bible it uses Jesus' name explicitly to refer to these two points below:
1) "Jesus is also the word God used to speak angels into existence"
2) Jesus (peace be upon him) was before all things seen and unseen.
God All-Mighty is the Creator of everything including the Universe, Jesus (peace be upon him) is a Creation of God All-Mighty whom his followers will receive salvation through the message that he brought down from God not the worship of him or associating partners or coequals with him claiming he is Devine and part of God.
Your own scripture makes a distinction between God and Jesus (peace be upon him), In 1 Corinthians 8:6 the difference between "FROM" whom all things came and "THROUGH" whom it came are clearly two separate things.
1 Corinthians 8:6
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, "FROM" whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, "THROUGH" whom all things came and through whom we live.
QUOTE: "Again, sigh, Jesus didn't say I show the way like other prophets, He said "I am the way..." I am surprise you can't see the difference. You have obviously been program with pat answers that all prophets were the truth and the way for their time. No prophet ever said I am the the way, truth and life! Being the way, life and the truth is different than showing it. You are tricking and deluding yourself to believe that Jesus is not your only hope of salvation. Your Quran says Jesus is the word and so does the Bible; read it carefully. The word of God is eternal and uncreated and that is the difference between all other prophets and Jesus Christ the son of the living God. Jesus is all that God is but not all there is to God. Jesus came to save us from our sin. Know Jesus; know life - No Jesus; No life! If the Quran didn't slip up by saying Jesus is the word; your argument would be stronger. In spite of Allah's deception, the truth slipped out in the Quran that Jesus is the word of Allah (God). I love it! Holy eternal Jesus to Him be all the praise and glory; May the deceptions of the enemy be silenced and Jesus received the reward of His suffering, Amen!!!!!"
ANSWER: Yes he was the way at the time. So are you saying that other Prophets (peace be upon them all) were not the truth and the way?? Why would other Prophets need to say this? The only way to earn Paradise Burninglight is obeying what God commands of you, God has not commanded the belief in Jesus Christ as God who died on the cross for your sins, the Old Testament refutes this claim that salvation can only be achieved through this belief. Burninglight I have already explained to you what the meaning of the verse in the Quran means you need to prove it is in conjunction to what you are claiming, which you cannot. We need to save ourselves from our sins lol, no one can do that on your behalf. And then you wander why Christians are associating partners with God, calling Jesus (peace be upon him) "Holy" did Jesus (peace be upon him) ever say he was "Holy" or attribute to himself divinity?? Certainly Not! Jesus is, was and never will be God.
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Burninglight
- Guru
- Posts: 1202
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:40 am
Post #539
Let's deal with you points and questions right here: Here is the Bible verse that all things were made by Jesus and for Him seen and unseen: Col 1: 15 [w]He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For [x] by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities" all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He [y] is before all things, and in Him all things [z]hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For [aa]it was the Fathers good pleasure for all the [ab]fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in [ac]heaven.HaLi8993 wrote: Burninglight
QUOTE: "When Jesus said no one comes to the father except through me, He wasn't referring to just the Jews. The Jews were suppose to carry the Message (who is Jesus) to the world, but since they rejected Him, God invited all who would come. I am one of them. Jesus commissioned the great apostle Paul (PBUH) to reach the gentiles with the love of Christ.
Muslims mention trinity more than Christians. Of course, the apostles weren't told to preach the trinity. The word doesn't exist in the Bible, but the concept is there and that is not the message we are to share. Muslims are obsessed with the word trinity not the Christians. lol"
ANSWER: Jesus (peace be upon him) was not sent to all of mankind, Christians want to claim he had but this is not true, if you feel he had come for all of mankind your going to have to prove it. In the Gospel of Matthew It says:
"I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel"
Paul did not wish to know what Jesus' true teachings were. Obviously if he did, then his teachings would not be contradictory. According to the bible Paul clearly goes against the teachings of Jesus (peace be upon him). How could Jesus (peace be upon him) commission Paul to reach people when Paul never met Jesus (peace be upon him) in his lifetime. Before his self claimed apostleship, his name was Saul and he used to be a murderer of the true believers. Paul has introduced his own concept of what Christianity is.
Again you need to support your claims that Muslims believe in the Trinity and such a thing exists in the original Gospel that Jesus (peace be upon him) came with.
QUOTE: "Angels are not human. That doesn't count. Besides the word of God was before angels. Jesus is also the word God used to speak angels into existence. Jesus was before all things seen and unseen"
ANSWER: I could say Angels came in the form of a human, why wouldn't it count, according to your understanding and logic it does count. There is only one word of God and that is from God All-Mighty. Jesus (peace be upon him) is not God nor is he equal with God, he proclaims the word of God.
Can you show me where in the bible it uses Jesus' name explicitly to refer to these two points below:
1) "Jesus is also the word God used to speak angels into existence"
2) Jesus (peace be upon him) was before all things seen and unseen.
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach" 23 if indeed you continue in [ad]the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, [ae]was made a [af] minister.
Your point about Jesus only meant to be for the lost house of Israel. Sister, you have to read the Bible in context and look carefully what Jesus said and did to fully understand. You are looking through an Islamic lense. You can't do that and expect to be objective. Read this: by Terry W. Benton
The Argument Stated:
MMLJ -- before the cross -- was taught only to the Jews of Israel.
I keep seeing the argument expressed that Jesus spoke only to the lost sheep of Israel, or only to Israel. The conclusion drawn from that fact is that "therefore" whatever He said to Israel was never intended to apply beyond
Israel. This includes Jesus' teaching on divorce and remarriage and adultery. MMLJ refers to the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. By "before the Cross" he means all that these books talk about before the story of the cross itself.
Answer to that argument:
1. He spoke the great commission to Jews only, but instructed that what He commanded them was to be taught to all nations. Matthew 28:18-20. Even if it is argued that Matthew 28:20 is talking about the commands He gave in the 40 days after the cross, those were still spoken to Jews only. Therefore, the fact that something was spoken to the Jews first, does not mean that it was only for them. But, notice further....
2. Jesus said that the gospel He had been preaching before the cross to Jews only was to also be preached "in all the world" (Matthew 24:14). Therefore, the fact that He came to the Jews only, is not proof that His words were intended to be limited to them. Jesus here declares that what He had been teaching the Jews only regarding the kingdom was INTENDED to be preached to all nations. But, notice further....
3. The story of the woman who anointed Jesus (Matthew 26:6-13 - before the cross), was to be "preached in the whole world". Therefore, Jesus intended that His actions and interactions with people before the cross, as well as what He was teaching before the cross be among the things that would be "preached in all the world" (not to Jews ONLY). Matthew and Mark are the only places where this story is told. But Jesus intended that this story be told in all the world, not just to the Jews. Therefore, Jesus intended that Matthew and Mark would be among those things that would be "preached in all the world". These things were among the things that would "go forth from Jerusalem". But, notice further....
4. "That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world" (John 1:9). John is writing his book to describe the Light of the world. Even though He came first to the Jews, His intention was to light "every man coming into the world" (not just the Jews). While Jesus was still a baby Simeon said: "A light to bring revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of Your people Israel" (Luke 2:32). Notice now, that Jesus was intended to be a light to "every man" including Gentiles. Now, at the time John wrote his gospel (long after the Old Testament was nailed to the cross), he can now introduce Jesus as "the true Light which GIVES (present tense) light to every man who comes into the world". John was written to share the true light with everyone, not just the Jews. Therefore, John is not intended to be an Old Testament book for the Jews. The gospel was intended to be "for the Jew FIRST, and ALSO for the Gentile" (Romans 1:16).
Conclusion:
It is immaterial that Jesus went first to Israel only. He expressed His clear intentions that what He was preaching before the cross and interactions with people before the cross would be among the things that would be "preached in ALL the world" (Matthew 24:14; 26:9-13). Those things He wanted "preached in all the world" are given to us in the 27 books of the New Testament, all of which are among the Spirit revelations that would "go forth from Jerusalem." Clearly, all 27 books are New Testament books. New Testament books often contain many important Old Testament facts (the gospels, Acts 7, Acts 13, Heb.11, etc.). This does not change them into Old Testament books. Genesis - Exodus19 are in the Old Testament. This section contains patriarchal facts, but that does not turn them into books that do not belong to the Old Testament. Acts 7 talks about patriarchal facts. That does not remove Acts 7 from the New Testament. There are ONLY two testaments. The first testament and the second (See Hebrews 8-10). The first testament contained Genesis thru Malachi. The second testament was written after the first was abolished. The first four books that appear in our present arrangement of the New Testament books tells us things Jesus was preaching that He said would be "preached in all the world." So, every time you hear someone make the "to Jews ONLY" argument, just remember these things.
Post #540
Burninglight
QUOTE: "Let's deal with you points and questions right here: Here is the Bible verse that all things were made by Jesus and for Him seen and unseen:
Col 1: 15 [w]He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For [x] by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities" all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He [y] is before all things, and in Him all things [z]hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For [aa]it was the Fathers good pleasure for all the [ab]fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in [ac]heaven.
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach" 23 if indeed you continue in [ad]the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, [ae]was made a [af] minister"
ANSWER: I asked you to show me where Jesus (peace be upon him) is explicitly mentioned "before all things seen and unseen" which was your first statement, but now you seem to be saying that "all things were made by Jesus (peace be upon him) and for Him seen and unseen" I also asked you to show me "Jesus is also the word God used to speak angels into existence" which you haven't done.
Furthermore getting back to the passage, is the word Jesus (peace be upon him) to be found any where in this passage, the context is very ambiguous so how can you be certain it is talking about Jesus (peace be upon him) and not talking about Yahweh All-Mighty, whom Jesus (peace be upon him) was created in His Image, then this passage would make more sense and we would have nothing to disagree on in regards to Jesus (peace be upon him, considering the fact that Jesus (peace be upon him) being the "image" of God according to the OT is defined as Holiness, Righteousness and Goodness.
Hence Jesus (peace be upon him) being the Image of God does not make him God Himself. Jesus (peace be upon him) himself said that no one in the entire Universe has a Goodness like that of God and I (Jesus Christ) included. Moreover what information would Paul have to talk about Jesus (peace be upon him) in this passage when Colossians has been claimed to have been written by Paul. I mean seriously can anything even be taken from such a man that clearly demonstrated his uncertainty and doubts about whether he even had the Spirit of God All-Mighty in him. Lets not just turn a blind eye to the facts Burninglight. Let's be realistic here, and use our intellect and logic.
QUOTE: "Your point about Jesus only meant to be for the lost house of Israel. Sister, you have to read the Bible in context and look carefully what Jesus said and did to fully understand. You are looking through an Islamic lense. You can't do that and expect to be objective. Read this: by Terry W. Benton
The Argument Stated:
MMLJ -- before the cross -- was taught only to the Jews of Israel"
ANSWER: I am reading it in context, and there is nothing in the bible that states that Jesus (peace be upon him) was sent to all of mankind, unless you have something from the bible that says otherwise then Terry W. Benton means nothing.
QUOTE: "The Argument Stated:
MMLJ -- before the cross -- was taught only to the Jews of Israel.
I keep seeing the argument expressed that Jesus spoke only to the lost sheep of Israel, or only to Israel. The conclusion drawn from that fact is that "therefore" whatever He said to Israel was never intended to apply beyond
Israel. This includes Jesus' teaching on divorce and remarriage and adultery. MMLJ refers to the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. By "before the Cross" he means all that these books talk about before the story of the cross itself.
Answer to that argument:
1. He spoke the great commission to Jews only, but instructed that what He commanded them was to be taught to all nations. Matthew 28:18-20. Even if it is argued that Matthew 28:20 is talking about the commands He gave in the 40 days after the cross, those were still spoken to Jews only. Therefore, the fact that something was spoken to the Jews first, does not mean that it was only for them. But, notice further.... "
ANSWER: Where does Jesus (peace be upon him) say I have come for all of mankind, from history we know that the present day Gospels were written by men much after the departure of Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) from earth, so how can we be sure they have not been changed to include all of mankind.
How can a Prophet's mission change?? Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) is referred to as a Prophet of Galilee and not of the whole world by the ordinary person, Matthew 21:11. It was Paul who changed his mission to suit their needs:
"And the crowds said, 'This is the prophet Jesus of Nazareth of Galilee.'"
"Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Therefore Jesus (peace be upon him) is greater than the disciples and his words are what matter most. If there is a contradiction, the disciples should be rejected on this matter. We are witness how the disciples were confused:
Acts 11:19
"Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only."
AND
Acts 11:1-3
"And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him. Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them ."
QUOTE: "2. Jesus said that the gospel He had been preaching before the cross to Jews only was to also be preached "in all the world" (Matthew 24:14). Therefore, the fact that He came to the Jews only, is not proof that His words were intended to be limited to them. Jesus here declares that what He had been teaching the Jews only regarding the kingdom was INTENDED to be preached to all nations. But, notice further...."
ANSWER: Jesus (peace be upon him) never said such a thing, can you show me where he said this. Jesus (peace be upon him) was not sent to all of mankind nor is Christianity a religion for all of mankind. Even if for arguments sake we say that Jesus (peace be upon him) died on the cross (which he didn't) for people's sins, he didn't do it for all nations sins, but for the Jews alone who believed in him.
In Islam, every nation on earth had a Messenger of God sent to them, this does not mean Jesus (peace be upon him) came for all of mankind. Furthermore there is another problem with this scenario when one reads the entire chapter of Mathew 24 it says:
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
This suggests the end of time prophecie when Jesus(peace be upon him) coming back should occur during the time of the generation in which Jesus (peace be upon him) spoke of in the bible. Clearly Jesus (peace be upon him), according to the bible meant his generation who witnessed his speech, those who were living at that time. Jesus (peace be upon him) makes it clear that "this generation" , those who were standing in front of him would witness all those signs. So how could it be for all nations???
Moreover some translations have it as "people" which is referring to the near by nations and tribes, not necessarily every single nation on earth.
Certainly, Jesus (peace be upon him) promising them that he will come back soon and that Judgement Day will come before "this generation passes" (Mark 13:30) proves it doesn't include every single nation on earth.
QUOTE: "3. The story of the woman who anointed Jesus (Matthew 26:6-13 - before the cross), was to be "preached in the whole world". Therefore, Jesus intended that His actions and interactions with people before the cross, as well as what He was teaching before the cross be among the things that would be "preached in all the world" (not to Jews ONLY). Matthew and Mark are the only places where this story is told. But Jesus intended that this story be told in all the world, not just to the Jews. Therefore, Jesus intended that Matthew and Mark would be among those things that would be "preached in all the world". These things were among the things that would "go forth from Jerusalem". But, notice further...."
ANSWER: What Jesus (peace be upon him) taught before the cross cannot be upheld by Christians let alone be preached to all the world. This verse does not mean literally the whole world because this is a figure of speech. For example, if I say I like pizza that doesn't mean I like all types of pizza. If decide to take Matthew 26:13 literally, then we have another problem because it contradicts the following 2 verses:
Matthew 15:24:
Jesus said: "He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
Matthew 10:5-6: Jesus said:
"These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel."
QUOTE: "4. "That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world" (John 1:9). John is writing his book to describe the Light of the world. Even though He came first to the Jews, His intention was to light "every man coming into the world" (not just the Jews). While Jesus was still a baby Simeon said: "A light to bring revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of Your people Israel" (Luke 2:32). Notice now, that Jesus was intended to be a light to "every man" including Gentiles. Now, at the time John wrote his gospel (long after the Old Testament was nailed to the cross), he can now introduce Jesus as "the true Light which GIVES (present tense) light to every man who comes into the world". John was written to share the true light with everyone, not just the Jews. Therefore, John is not intended to be an Old Testament book for the Jews. The gospel was intended to be "for the Jew FIRST, and ALSO for the Gentile" (Romans 1:16)."
ANSWER: Who decides when to introduce Jesus (peace be upon him)?? Did Jesus (peace be upon him) give John a command to introduce him after his death did he??. Luke 2:32 is in agreement that it included only the Jews and Israel:
Luke 2:32:
A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
As for Romans 1:16 if we look at the king James version it tells us exactly who this includes:
Romans 1:16:
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Again if we look at the NIV of John 1:9. There isn't even any mention of Jesus (peace be upon him) being a light to "every man"
John 1:9:
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
QUOTE: "Conclusion:
It is immaterial that Jesus went first to Israel only. He expressed His clear intentions that what He was preaching before the cross and interactions with people before the cross would be among the things that would be "preached in ALL the world" (Matthew 24:14; 26:9-13). Those things He wanted "preached in all the world" are given to us in the 27 books of the New Testament, all of which are among the Spirit revelations that would "go forth from Jerusalem." Clearly, all 27 books are New Testament books. New Testament books often contain many important Old Testament facts (the gospels, Acts 7, Acts 13, Heb.11, etc.). This does not change them into Old Testament books. Genesis - Exodus19 are in the Old Testament. This section contains patriarchal facts, but that does not turn them into books that do not belong to the Old Testament. Acts 7 talks about patriarchal facts. That does not remove Acts 7 from the New Testament. There are ONLY two testaments. The first testament and the second (See Hebrews 8-10). The first testament contained Genesis thru Malachi. The second testament was written after the first was abolished. The first four books that appear in our present arrangement of the New Testament books tells us things Jesus was preaching that He said would be "preached in all the world." So, every time you hear someone make the "to Jews ONLY" argument, just remember these things"
ANSWER: Therefore in conclusion we see no evidence that Jesus (peace be upon him) said that he came to all of mankind just speculations and illusory statements that Jesus (peace be upon him) wanted things changed after the cross when he explicitly said to follow the laws of the Old Testament.
QUOTE: "Let's deal with you points and questions right here: Here is the Bible verse that all things were made by Jesus and for Him seen and unseen:
Col 1: 15 [w]He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For [x] by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities" all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He [y] is before all things, and in Him all things [z]hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For [aa]it was the Fathers good pleasure for all the [ab]fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in [ac]heaven.
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach" 23 if indeed you continue in [ad]the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, [ae]was made a [af] minister"
ANSWER: I asked you to show me where Jesus (peace be upon him) is explicitly mentioned "before all things seen and unseen" which was your first statement, but now you seem to be saying that "all things were made by Jesus (peace be upon him) and for Him seen and unseen" I also asked you to show me "Jesus is also the word God used to speak angels into existence" which you haven't done.
Furthermore getting back to the passage, is the word Jesus (peace be upon him) to be found any where in this passage, the context is very ambiguous so how can you be certain it is talking about Jesus (peace be upon him) and not talking about Yahweh All-Mighty, whom Jesus (peace be upon him) was created in His Image, then this passage would make more sense and we would have nothing to disagree on in regards to Jesus (peace be upon him, considering the fact that Jesus (peace be upon him) being the "image" of God according to the OT is defined as Holiness, Righteousness and Goodness.
Hence Jesus (peace be upon him) being the Image of God does not make him God Himself. Jesus (peace be upon him) himself said that no one in the entire Universe has a Goodness like that of God and I (Jesus Christ) included. Moreover what information would Paul have to talk about Jesus (peace be upon him) in this passage when Colossians has been claimed to have been written by Paul. I mean seriously can anything even be taken from such a man that clearly demonstrated his uncertainty and doubts about whether he even had the Spirit of God All-Mighty in him. Lets not just turn a blind eye to the facts Burninglight. Let's be realistic here, and use our intellect and logic.
QUOTE: "Your point about Jesus only meant to be for the lost house of Israel. Sister, you have to read the Bible in context and look carefully what Jesus said and did to fully understand. You are looking through an Islamic lense. You can't do that and expect to be objective. Read this: by Terry W. Benton
The Argument Stated:
MMLJ -- before the cross -- was taught only to the Jews of Israel"
ANSWER: I am reading it in context, and there is nothing in the bible that states that Jesus (peace be upon him) was sent to all of mankind, unless you have something from the bible that says otherwise then Terry W. Benton means nothing.
QUOTE: "The Argument Stated:
MMLJ -- before the cross -- was taught only to the Jews of Israel.
I keep seeing the argument expressed that Jesus spoke only to the lost sheep of Israel, or only to Israel. The conclusion drawn from that fact is that "therefore" whatever He said to Israel was never intended to apply beyond
Israel. This includes Jesus' teaching on divorce and remarriage and adultery. MMLJ refers to the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. By "before the Cross" he means all that these books talk about before the story of the cross itself.
Answer to that argument:
1. He spoke the great commission to Jews only, but instructed that what He commanded them was to be taught to all nations. Matthew 28:18-20. Even if it is argued that Matthew 28:20 is talking about the commands He gave in the 40 days after the cross, those were still spoken to Jews only. Therefore, the fact that something was spoken to the Jews first, does not mean that it was only for them. But, notice further.... "
ANSWER: Where does Jesus (peace be upon him) say I have come for all of mankind, from history we know that the present day Gospels were written by men much after the departure of Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) from earth, so how can we be sure they have not been changed to include all of mankind.
How can a Prophet's mission change?? Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) is referred to as a Prophet of Galilee and not of the whole world by the ordinary person, Matthew 21:11. It was Paul who changed his mission to suit their needs:
"And the crowds said, 'This is the prophet Jesus of Nazareth of Galilee.'"
"Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Therefore Jesus (peace be upon him) is greater than the disciples and his words are what matter most. If there is a contradiction, the disciples should be rejected on this matter. We are witness how the disciples were confused:
Acts 11:19
"Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only."
AND
Acts 11:1-3
"And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him. Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them ."
QUOTE: "2. Jesus said that the gospel He had been preaching before the cross to Jews only was to also be preached "in all the world" (Matthew 24:14). Therefore, the fact that He came to the Jews only, is not proof that His words were intended to be limited to them. Jesus here declares that what He had been teaching the Jews only regarding the kingdom was INTENDED to be preached to all nations. But, notice further...."
ANSWER: Jesus (peace be upon him) never said such a thing, can you show me where he said this. Jesus (peace be upon him) was not sent to all of mankind nor is Christianity a religion for all of mankind. Even if for arguments sake we say that Jesus (peace be upon him) died on the cross (which he didn't) for people's sins, he didn't do it for all nations sins, but for the Jews alone who believed in him.
In Islam, every nation on earth had a Messenger of God sent to them, this does not mean Jesus (peace be upon him) came for all of mankind. Furthermore there is another problem with this scenario when one reads the entire chapter of Mathew 24 it says:
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
This suggests the end of time prophecie when Jesus(peace be upon him) coming back should occur during the time of the generation in which Jesus (peace be upon him) spoke of in the bible. Clearly Jesus (peace be upon him), according to the bible meant his generation who witnessed his speech, those who were living at that time. Jesus (peace be upon him) makes it clear that "this generation" , those who were standing in front of him would witness all those signs. So how could it be for all nations???
Moreover some translations have it as "people" which is referring to the near by nations and tribes, not necessarily every single nation on earth.
Certainly, Jesus (peace be upon him) promising them that he will come back soon and that Judgement Day will come before "this generation passes" (Mark 13:30) proves it doesn't include every single nation on earth.
QUOTE: "3. The story of the woman who anointed Jesus (Matthew 26:6-13 - before the cross), was to be "preached in the whole world". Therefore, Jesus intended that His actions and interactions with people before the cross, as well as what He was teaching before the cross be among the things that would be "preached in all the world" (not to Jews ONLY). Matthew and Mark are the only places where this story is told. But Jesus intended that this story be told in all the world, not just to the Jews. Therefore, Jesus intended that Matthew and Mark would be among those things that would be "preached in all the world". These things were among the things that would "go forth from Jerusalem". But, notice further...."
ANSWER: What Jesus (peace be upon him) taught before the cross cannot be upheld by Christians let alone be preached to all the world. This verse does not mean literally the whole world because this is a figure of speech. For example, if I say I like pizza that doesn't mean I like all types of pizza. If decide to take Matthew 26:13 literally, then we have another problem because it contradicts the following 2 verses:
Matthew 15:24:
Jesus said: "He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
Matthew 10:5-6: Jesus said:
"These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel."
QUOTE: "4. "That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world" (John 1:9). John is writing his book to describe the Light of the world. Even though He came first to the Jews, His intention was to light "every man coming into the world" (not just the Jews). While Jesus was still a baby Simeon said: "A light to bring revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of Your people Israel" (Luke 2:32). Notice now, that Jesus was intended to be a light to "every man" including Gentiles. Now, at the time John wrote his gospel (long after the Old Testament was nailed to the cross), he can now introduce Jesus as "the true Light which GIVES (present tense) light to every man who comes into the world". John was written to share the true light with everyone, not just the Jews. Therefore, John is not intended to be an Old Testament book for the Jews. The gospel was intended to be "for the Jew FIRST, and ALSO for the Gentile" (Romans 1:16)."
ANSWER: Who decides when to introduce Jesus (peace be upon him)?? Did Jesus (peace be upon him) give John a command to introduce him after his death did he??. Luke 2:32 is in agreement that it included only the Jews and Israel:
Luke 2:32:
A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
As for Romans 1:16 if we look at the king James version it tells us exactly who this includes:
Romans 1:16:
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Again if we look at the NIV of John 1:9. There isn't even any mention of Jesus (peace be upon him) being a light to "every man"
John 1:9:
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
QUOTE: "Conclusion:
It is immaterial that Jesus went first to Israel only. He expressed His clear intentions that what He was preaching before the cross and interactions with people before the cross would be among the things that would be "preached in ALL the world" (Matthew 24:14; 26:9-13). Those things He wanted "preached in all the world" are given to us in the 27 books of the New Testament, all of which are among the Spirit revelations that would "go forth from Jerusalem." Clearly, all 27 books are New Testament books. New Testament books often contain many important Old Testament facts (the gospels, Acts 7, Acts 13, Heb.11, etc.). This does not change them into Old Testament books. Genesis - Exodus19 are in the Old Testament. This section contains patriarchal facts, but that does not turn them into books that do not belong to the Old Testament. Acts 7 talks about patriarchal facts. That does not remove Acts 7 from the New Testament. There are ONLY two testaments. The first testament and the second (See Hebrews 8-10). The first testament contained Genesis thru Malachi. The second testament was written after the first was abolished. The first four books that appear in our present arrangement of the New Testament books tells us things Jesus was preaching that He said would be "preached in all the world." So, every time you hear someone make the "to Jews ONLY" argument, just remember these things"
ANSWER: Therefore in conclusion we see no evidence that Jesus (peace be upon him) said that he came to all of mankind just speculations and illusory statements that Jesus (peace be upon him) wanted things changed after the cross when he explicitly said to follow the laws of the Old Testament.
