Christianity without freewill

[scourge99]

Lately I have engaged in many debates that revolve around the question of whether freewill exists. Its interesting to note that many Christians take the side that freewill does exist while non-theists often take the side that freewill does not exist. I want to forgo the debate of whether freewill exists and look beyond it. For this thread lets assume that freewill does not exist. The goal of this thread is to investigate, brainstorm, and debate about reasonable formulations of Christianity assuming there is no freewill.

For arguments sake let us assume that science has demonstrated a lack of freewill to the same extent that it has demonstrated the theory of gravitation and the theory of evolution. I would guess many Christians would reject the science just as many in the past and present reject science when it comes to heliocentricism, a world wide flood, and evolution. But ignoring the science-deniers, what sense can a science-accepting Christian make of the core concepts of Christianity in light of no freewill? For example:

1) Jesus atonement for sins by dying on the cross. If people are not genuinely in control of their choices--past, present or future--and thus the sins they make then how is the (alleged) death and resurrection of Jesus redemptive?

2) Believing in God and Jesus gets you into heaven. If people cannot genuinely choose their beliefs but rather come about them by means beyond their personal control then wouldn't entrance into heaven be by pure luck?

I think many of these problems are far easier for liberal Christians to resolve but what about fundamentalists and moderates?

I believe there are other interesting problems that can be examined or need to be reassessed if we lack freewill such as the problem of evil and the problem of non-believers. Feel free to bring up any other problems. But more importantly, try to provide or propose some reasonable solutions to the problems.

[Divine Insight]

Can you give me an example of a free will choice that is not determined by causal factors which led you to that choice?

The idea that just because all choices are made based on preexisting things to choose from does not mean that they are determined by those things as if those things are the "cause" of a choice.

If I ask you why you did not chose to become a millionaire (assuming you're not one), you would probably say, "I didn't see that option as being a viable choice".

But other people may have chosen to become a millionaire in spite of the fact that it didn't appear at the time to be something that would be easy to choose, or even guaranteed to become manifest.

So choices aren't always determined by causal factors. On the contrary, the choices themselves can be the cause of how the future will unfold (i.e. on whether or not you might become a millionaire, for example).

In fact, many people would argue that if you are basing all your "choices" only on what you believe is likely to become manifest, then you aren't truly making any choices at all. So in that case you may very well be forfeiting your ability to make free will choices simply because you don't believe you can.

When you chose to bring things into manifestation that you don't believe are possible is when you're genuinely exercising free will.

Otherwise you're just dust in the wind.

[ttruscott]

Christianity without freewill - no such thing...

peace, Ted

[Peter]

Christianity without freewill - no such thing...

peace, Ted

Free will God style.

I agree that without true free will your god becomes a monster and christianity becomes evil.

[Mithrae]

I agree that without true free will your god becomes a monster and christianity becomes evil.

Could you justify that statement please?
What is 'true free will'?
What is 'evil'?
How are the two related?

Edit: Humorous parody in the video btw - I LOLed

[Peter]

I agree that without true free will your god becomes a monster and christianity becomes evil.

Could you justify that statement please?

If we don't have free will then god created evil, we didn't choose it.
You're aware that the christian answer to evil's existence is that god gave us the free will to choose evil.

What is 'true free will'?

Lot's of christians consider simple choice to be free will but free will is more than just the ability to decide. Religious free will implies the ability to stand outside yourself, understand all the reasons for and implications of a choice and change that choice to be in accordance with god or not. In a nutshell it's the ability to make a choice we didn't make. I don't think anyone can make a choice they didn't make.

What is 'evil'?

The only definition of evil that I can get my head around is consensus. If 9 out of 10 people (for instance) agree something is evil then it is.

How are the two related?

See above.

Edit: Humorous parody in the video btw - I LOLed

Yep, one of my favorites.

[Mithrae]

I agree that without true free will your god becomes a monster and christianity becomes evil.

Could you justify that statement please?

If we don't have free will then god created evil, we didn't choose it.
You're aware that the christian answer to evil's existence is that god gave us the free will to choose evil.

I thought it was that Lucifer chose not to uphold the good. Even in the Garden of Eden, what do you think is 'evil' about eating some fruit? How did God create 'evil'?

What is 'true free will'?

Lot's of christians consider simple choice to be free will but free will is more than just the ability to decide. Religious free will implies the ability to stand outside yourself, understand all the reasons for and implications of a choice and change that choice to be in accordance with god or not. In a nutshell it's the ability to make a choice we didn't make. I don't think anyone can make a choice they didn't make.

Who said that 'religious' free will implies that omniscient ability, besides Ttruscott? If lots of Christians disagree, why exactly do you pick one side as more valid than the other? Seems to me that a key Christian virtue - faith - implies trust in God's inner guidance and providence rather than our own abilities and ambitions. A choice between simply obeying God, or seeking 'knowledge of good and evil' would seem to be the very embodiment of that. So why do you think omniscient knowledge of situations and consequences is a pre-requisite of religious free will?

What is 'evil'?

The only definition of evil that I can get my head around is consensus. If 9 out of 10 people (for instance) agree something is evil then it is.

How are the two related?

See above.

'Evil' (the consensus on what is bad) is related to 'true free will' because the latter implies knowledge of all reasons and implications of a choice - which we don't have. So you're saying that evil does not exist?

A lot of Christians would agree with you that evil, like cold, is simply the absense of something, not a thing in itself.

[Coldfire]

For arguments sake let us assume that science has demonstrated a lack of freewill to the same extent that it has demonstrated the theory of gravitation and the theory of evolution.

From my perspective that is an extremely imaginary hypothetical situation that clearly has absolutely no scientific basis at the point in time. Science is nowhere near being in a position to make such a claim.

If this is what you gather from your perspective, perhaps you should seek out another vantage point. The only scientific basis needed to posit the claim that there is no free will is a lack of evidence. Until there has been shown a reason to believe in free will, the claim that there is none is the most valid.

So far, there has yet to be shown any evidence or valid example of such a thing as free will. (“freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention.� – Merriam-Webster)

As far as Christianity and Free Will are concerned, of course Christianity would be utterly meaningless without a concept of free will.

There is no mention of free will or any concept like it in the Bible. On the contrary, there are numerous examples of determinism and pre-determinism in the bible.

But that's not surprising because Christianity is utterly meaningless with a concept of Free Will. The idea that a God would condemn people for merely not believing in him is already a nonsensical idea IMHO.

That is indeed a nonsensical idea, where’d you get it from?

[Crazee]

As far as Christianity and Free Will are concerned, of course Christianity would be utterly meaningless without a concept of free will.

There is no mention of free will or any concept like it in the Bible. On the contrary, there are numerous examples of determinism and pre-determinism in the bible.

Can you provide some examples? I'm curious to read.

[Coldfire]

Can you give me an example of a free will choice that is not determined by causal factors which led you to that choice?

The idea that just because all choices are made based on preexisting things to choose from does not mean that they are determined by those things as if those things are the "cause" of a choice.

“choices are made based on preexisting things� does not mean “those things are the cause of a choice.�
Gotcha

If I ask you why you did not chose to become a millionaire (assuming you're not one), you would probably say, "I didn't see that option as being a viable choice".

How about I just tell you what I would say instead of you presuming it.
I would say that being a millionaire is not incumbent upon my simply “choosing� to be one. There are limitations to just getting what one wants. I see it as a viable option, just one that is hard for me to do.

But other people may have chosen to become a millionaire in spite of the fact that it didn't appear at the time to be something that would be easy to choose, or even guaranteed to become manifest.

Ok, why did they do that? Perhaps they have a stronger resolve to work towards such a goal then I do. What are you getting at? Something caused them to make that decision, something caused them to have more determination and ambition to succeed. Some of them had it fall on their lap as babies, how is this anything close to being an example of free will decisions?

So choices aren't always determined by causal factors. On the contrary, the choices themselves can be the cause of how the future will unfold (i.e. on whether or not you might become a millionaire, for example).

Yes they are, just because you can’t see what caused someone to arrive at a particular choice, doesn’t mean there wasn’t a cause to it. Choices themselves can be a cause for something else?… yea, that’s an example of determinism.

In fact, many people would argue that if you are basing all your "choices" only on what you believe is likely to become manifest, then you aren't truly making any choices at all. So in that case you may very well be forfeiting your ability to make free will choices simply because you don't believe you can.

I don’t understand what you are getting at here. Nobody is claiming that people base all their choices on what they believe is likely to manifest. That is not what determinism is.

When you chose to bring things into manifestation that you don't believe are possible is when you're genuinely exercising free will.

I don’t know if you are trying to redefine the concept of free will or provide an example, but youre doing a poor job either way.

Let me put it to you this way.

Determinism doesn’t mean that we can predict everything we choose, or even discover all of what it is that led up to a particular choice that someone made. Such a feat would require knowledge of every causal factor leading up to that point in time; thousands, possibly millions, or factors. Environmental, physiological, chemical, familial, societal, etc etc etc. The task would be virtually impossible for one man to do in an entire lifetime, just to find the causes of ONE CHOICE.

All determinism is is a belief in cause and effect. It states that everything happens for a reason. The concept of free will attempts to exclude humans from this relationship of cause and effect which encompasses everything in the known universe. It’s a non-biblical religious dogma that attempts to set humans apart from everything else and hold them accountable for things they have no control over. What makes humans so special that they are not affected by cause and effect?

[Divine Insight]

Until there has been shown a reason to believe in free will, the claim that there is none is the most valid.

That kind of thinking is totally false, and not scientific at all.

If there is no evidence one way or the other than there is no reason to assume that either conclusion is "most valid".

So you're dead wrong about this in terms of this being supported by science or logic.

There is no mention of free will or any concept like it in the Bible. On the contrary, there are numerous examples of determinism and pre-determinism in the bible.

From my perspective this is totally unreasonable.

There would be no reason for God to "punish" people if they had no choice in what they do. The whole story of Adam and Eve having "fallen from grace", and God cursing them with punishments would be meaningless if they had no free will.

In fact, the story is an oxymoron even if they have free will, but that's a whole other topic.

But that's not surprising because Christianity is utterly meaningless with a concept of Free Will. The idea that a God would condemn people for merely not believing in him is already a nonsensical idea IMHO.

That is indeed a nonsensical idea, where’d you get it from?

It comes directly from the Christian Bible KJV:


Mark.16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John.3:18 He that believeth on him (Jesus) is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So I see you're in agreement with me that these scriptures are indeed nonsense.