Cholland said he would like to debate this point so here it is.
Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?
What prophecies does he fulfill and why?
Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?
Cholland your up.....
Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?
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The Tongue
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Re: Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?
Post #2Well, Cholland hasn't turned up yet so I'll just jump in here.Nickman wrote: Cholland said he would like to debate this point so here it is.
Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?
What prophecies does he fulfill and why?
Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?
Cholland your up.....
Mark 9: 12; The disciples asked Jesus why it was written that Elijah must come first, he answered, Elijah is indeed coming first, (Future tense) and will restore all things, yet why do the scriptures say, that the Son of Man, must suffer many things and be treated with contempt? But I tell you that Elijah has come, and they did to him whatever they pleased, as it is written of him (The Son of Man) in scripture.
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Strider324
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Re: Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?
Post #3Well, as the OT clearly describes the Messiah as a Teacher/Leader/Warrior, and the NT describes Jesus as a hellenistic Savior/Redeemer that is found nowhere in the OT descriptions, it seems clear that Jesus could not be the Messiah, and that Christians don't even consider him as such.Nickman wrote: Cholland said he would like to debate this point so here it is.
Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?
What prophecies does he fulfill and why?
Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?
Cholland your up.....
"Do Good for Good is Good to do. Spurn Bribe of Heaven and Threat of Hell"
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- The Kasidah of Haji abdu al-Yezdi
Post #4
How many times has this thread been done?
Atheist: No prophesies in OT fulfilled in Christ.
Christian: Here are X number of prophesies fulfilled.
Atheist: Those weren't fulfilled, but just made to look like they were.
Christian: No, they were.
Atheist: No, they weren't.
wash, rinse, repeat.
Atheist: No prophesies in OT fulfilled in Christ.
Christian: Here are X number of prophesies fulfilled.
Atheist: Those weren't fulfilled, but just made to look like they were.
Christian: No, they were.
Atheist: No, they weren't.
wash, rinse, repeat.
Re: Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?
Post #5"As prescribed by the Hebrew Bible" is a tad problematic, given that we are not given a precise "prescription." Rather, we see a God who is determined to work for blessing for the whole world through God's special activities with one group of people particularly chosen for the task. There are general indications of a Messiah who will be: 1) like a prophet, speaking the words of God to the people; 2) like a priest, interceding for the people; 3) like a king, vanquishing the enemies of the people; and 4) like a sacrificial lamb, suffering on behalf of the people.Nickman wrote:...Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?...
Jesus does seem to fit in quite nicely with all four elements listed above--although there are some surprising aspects to the "fulfillments"--e.g., conquering death itself, rather than merely those who rule by the threat of violence and death--but these surprises shouldn't surprise us given that God is often portrayed in the Hebrew scriptures as a very surprising character.Nickman wrote:...What prophecies does he fulfill and why?...
That depends on how one goes about interpreting the Hebrew text. If one starts with nave presuppositions about what the text is supposed to say, then Jesus isn't likely to match up with those erroneous presuppositions. But if your approach to the Hebrew text is more reasonable, then Jesus will turn out to be the only possible Jewish Messiah.Nickman wrote:...Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?...
Last edited by EduChris on Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I am a work in process; I do not claim absolute knowledge or absolute certainty; I simply present the best working hypothesis I have at the moment, always pending new information and further insight.
α β γ δ ε ζ η θ ι κ λ μ ν ξ ο π � σ ς τ υ φ χ ψ ω - Α Β Γ Δ Ε Ζ Η Θ Ι Κ Λ Μ � Ξ Ο ΠΡ Σ Τ Υ Φ Χ Ψ Ω
α β γ δ ε ζ η θ ι κ λ μ ν ξ ο π � σ ς τ υ φ χ ψ ω - Α Β Γ Δ Ε Ζ Η Θ Ι Κ Λ Μ � Ξ Ο ΠΡ Σ Τ Υ Φ Χ Ψ Ω
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Jax Agnesson
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Re: Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?
Post #6Are 'naive' propositions necessarily 'erroneous', in the context of religious piety?EduChris wrote: That depends on how one goes about interpreting the Hebrew text. If one starts with nave presuppositions about what the text is supposed to say, then Jesus isn't likely to match up with those erroneous presuppositions.
Do you mean by this statementBut if your approach to the Hebrew text is more reasonable, then Jesus will turn out to be the only possible Jewish Messiah.
a: the Jewish Messiah could not possibly have taken any other personal identity, or
b; Jesus could not possibly have been anything other than the Jewish Messiah?
Re: Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?
Post #7I'm not talking about piety at all; rather, I'm talking about a scholarly approach to the text which considers such issues as: 1) ancient languages, idiomatic expressions, and the translation of ancient languages; 2) ancient cultures; 3) the history of interpretation, especially the interpretive methods employed by first-century Jewish rabbis.Jax Agnesson wrote:...Are 'naive' propositions necessarily 'erroneous', in the context of religious piety?...
No one other than Jesus meets the aforementioned general criteria (prophet, priest, king, sacrificial lamb).Jax Agnesson wrote:...Do you mean by this statement...a: the Jewish Messiah could not possibly have taken any other personal identity, or
b; Jesus could not possibly have been anything other than the Jewish Messiah?
Last edited by EduChris on Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I am a work in process; I do not claim absolute knowledge or absolute certainty; I simply present the best working hypothesis I have at the moment, always pending new information and further insight.
α β γ δ ε ζ η θ ι κ λ μ ν ξ ο π � σ ς τ υ φ χ ψ ω - Α Β Γ Δ Ε Ζ Η Θ Ι Κ Λ Μ � Ξ Ο ΠΡ Σ Τ Υ Φ Χ Ψ Ω
α β γ δ ε ζ η θ ι κ λ μ ν ξ ο π � σ ς τ υ φ χ ψ ω - Α Β Γ Δ Ε Ζ Η Θ Ι Κ Λ Μ � Ξ Ο ΠΡ Σ Τ Υ Φ Χ Ψ Ω
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Clownboat
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Re: Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?
Post #8Why don't we ask the Jews. Shouldn't they know?Nickman wrote: Cholland said he would like to debate this point so here it is.
Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?
What prophecies does he fulfill and why?
Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?
Cholland your up.....
... Doesn't look like he was.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
Re: Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?
Post #9Which Jews do you want to ask? The ones who accept(ed) Jesus as Messiah, or the ones who reject(ed) him?Clownboat wrote:...Why don't we ask the Jews. Shouldn't they know?...
As many Jews will admit, it's hard to get Jews to agree on anything.
I am a work in process; I do not claim absolute knowledge or absolute certainty; I simply present the best working hypothesis I have at the moment, always pending new information and further insight.
α β γ δ ε ζ η θ ι κ λ μ ν ξ ο π � σ ς τ υ φ χ ψ ω - Α Β Γ Δ Ε Ζ Η Θ Ι Κ Λ Μ � Ξ Ο ΠΡ Σ Τ Υ Φ Χ Ψ Ω
α β γ δ ε ζ η θ ι κ λ μ ν ξ ο π � σ ς τ υ φ χ ψ ω - Α Β Γ Δ Ε Ζ Η Θ Ι Κ Λ Μ � Ξ Ο ΠΡ Σ Τ Υ Φ Χ Ψ Ω
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Goat
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Post #10
Except there is ONE huge differencecholland wrote: How many times has this thread been done?
Atheist: No prophesies in OT fulfilled in Christ.
Christian: Here are X number of prophesies fulfilled.
Atheist: Those weren't fulfilled, but just made to look like they were.
Christian: No, they were.
Atheist: No, they weren't.
wash, rinse, repeat.
Christian: Here are X number of prophecies.
Atheist: Let's look at those prophecies in CONTEXT, and please explain how they are prophecies of Jesus.
CHristian: Well, they are because I said so.
When you look at each and every 'prophecy' individually,in context.. the Christian claims evaporate.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
Steven Novella
Steven Novella
