What is evolution and how do we know it's right?

[Autodidact]

This thread was started in response to HaLi, to talk about what the Theory of Evolution (ToE) is and how science knows that it is correct.

[Artie]

The best evidence that mankind has no relation to any other ape and the best differentiation between an ape and man is the difference in chromosome count. I say this because a child can differentiate a human out of any bunch of apes but adult evolutionists are unable to. That is what evolutionary science does to ones mind.

So Ozgirl you actually believe that your god personally took "dust of the earth" and separated it into atoms, then suspended time to avoid any chemical reactions when he was doing the assembling, then assembled the atoms into molecules etc according to some blueprint in his head? This blueprint would have to contain the placement of 7 billion billion billion atoms for a 70 kg human being alone. And this he did for at least 8.7 million species on the planet today plus all the extinct species such as dinosaurs?

Which scenario do you think is true?

1. God assembles say 7 billion billion billion atoms into what evolutionists call an ancestor of humans?
2. God assembles another 7 billion billion billion atoms into a human?

or

3. God tweaks the ancestor assembly and puts a few billion atoms in a different place and produces a human?

I subscribe to the coalescence of matter to create an organism. Researchers have found that all we are are elements organised in a particular way.

Yes we are. We consist of 7 billion billion billion atoms organized in a particular way. God must have had that blueprint in his head and then assembled these atoms into whatever organism he created right? 8.7 million species plus all the extinct ones. That is what you believe?

You also have stuff all to support abiogenesis.

What?

If you evos have separated abiogenesis from the evolutionary paradigm,

It was never in there. That's why one is called abiogenesis and the other evolution.

I likewise claim the same in relation to the genesis. You claim non living elements reorganised themselves into a complex factory of reproduction.

No we don't. How many times do we have to say this? Abiogenesis and evolution are two entirely different things! Abiogenesis is just one possible start to life on Earth. Another might be panspermia, or aliens, or whatever but those have nothing to do with evolution. Evolution deals with what happened after first life arose. Will you ever get that? Will you ever understand that evolution deals with evolution and not the origin of life?

I claim a God reorganised elements into beings. Even the evocation of a God sounds more plausible than dead elements doing it.

And again you think that evolution has anything to do with abiogenesis or panspermia etc. You actually believe that your god personally took "dust of the earth" and separated it into atoms, then suspended time to avoid any chemical reactions when he was doing the assembling, then assembled the atoms into molecules etc according to some blueprint in his head? This blueprint would have to contain the placement of 7 billion billion billion atoms for a 70 kg human being alone. And this he did for at least 8.7 million species on the planet today plus all the extinct species such as dinosaurs? And this you think is plausible?

[Clownboat]

Likewise, there is no justification at all to the claim that human chromosome 2 is the fusion of chimp genes 2a & 2b. This link sums it up nicely with the evolutionary research used to support their claims being cited.

http://creation.com/chromosome-2-fusion-1

Here is snip from one...

Human chromosome 2 was formed by the head-to-head fusion of two ancestral chromosomes that remained separate in other primates. Sequences that once resided near the ends of the ancestral chromosomes are now interstitially located in 2q13-2q14.1.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12421751

Then on they go to explain why what is not the same still is the same. It is all biased and assumptive rhetoric. It is all for believers in the TOE philosophy to believe. It is not empirical data.


"Other problems with the fusion theory include the fact that standard cytogenetic techniques, such as C-banding, have detected significantly less heterochromatic centromeric DNA on the long arm of human chromosome 2 than predicted by the fusion model. Evolutionists claim this is because the bulk of the centromeric repetitive DNA has been lost.13 Conversely, it is more likely that the so-called cryptic centromeric DNA never existed."

"Mutations of the magnitude needed to support a fusion event pose serious cytogenetic problems both for the organism during regular somatic cell growth related to mitosis and during the meiotic events occurring in the germ-line tissues. Proper alignment requires the near-identical structure of each pair so that each chromosome aligns only with its sister chromosome. Chromosomal fusion is one major common cause of infertility. If meiosis does occur despite the aberration, the embryo produced from fertilization of these gametes typically self-aborts."

The best evidence that mankind has no relation to any other ape and the best differentiation between an ape and man is the difference in chromosome count. I say this because a child can differentiate a human out of any bunch of apes but adult evolutionists are unable to. That is what evolutionary science does to ones mind.


Evolutionists had to scurry off when they found this difference in chromosome count and explain it in evolutionary terms. To do this they had to put their evogoggles on, ignore any difference, find 2 chimp chromosome that likely have nothing to do with the human ch2, and come up with some good story telling to explain why some humans do not carry 48 chromosomes and why they are disimilar. They pretend to see 2 centromeres, they pretend much. Of course some apes have different chomosome counts, but none have 46 like mankind. This to me demonstrates that a variety of apes were created prior to man.

From here evolutionists can only go around in cirlces and offer more and more biased nonsense, excuses and unsubstantiated stories that mean absolutely nothing more than they have to make it look like it all evolved. They do not have credible genomic evidence and they do not have fossil evidence to back their claims. It is truely a waste of time debating evolutionists. If I leave the forum for another week they will still be tail chasing when I come back.

The story is this. At some time after the separation of the human and chimpanzee lineages, two ancestral chromosomes, #12 and #13 in the chimpanzee, fused end-to-end to form a single chromosome, #2, in humans. Chimpanzee chromosome 13 forms the short arm (2p) and part of the long arm (2q) of human chromosome 2, while chimpanzee chromosome 12 forms most of the long arm (2q) of chromosome 2.

The primary evidence for this fusion is the comparative genetic content of these chromosomes. That is, most of the genes in chimpanzee chromosome 13 are found in human 2p, and most of the genes in chimpanzee chromosome 12 are in human 2q. The chromatin binding patterns line up, the sequence analysis confirms, and there have been some lovely FISH studies that show the correspondence.

What has since been done is that a prediction was made that there ought to be fragments of telomeres (the end caps of chromosomes) in the middle of chromosome 2, at the fusion site. Which has been examined. And the prediction has been confirmed.

Bergman and Tomkins ignore every single bit of that. Instead, what they do is focus on just the region of the fusion, and complain that it is a tangled mess (sound familiar?) and hard to interpret " that it is a degenerate telomeric region, rather than a complete and intact telomere, which is what they demand be present. This is an unrealistic expectation, given that every paper on the structure of the fusion region makes the point that it is degenerate.

An analogy: imagine a red Ford Mustang and a blue BMW X6 are in a head-on collision, and both have totally wrecked front ends, with bumpers and radiators and headlights interlocked and everything about their grilles in tangled confusion, and with bits and pieces torn loose and flung about. Youd be able to look at the crash and still tell by everything in and behind the engine compartment that Car #1 was a Mustang and Car #2 was an X6.

Bergman and Tomkins are the bewildered and incompetent investigators who ignore every other factor in the crash, look at a few particularly mangled bits of the wreckage, and declare that they cant identify it, thereforethe two vehicles were assembled at the factory in this particular configuration, and no crash occurred. But they use lots of sciencey language to explain this at tendentious length, which is sufficient to convince non-scientists that the interpretation of an obvious historical event has been refuted. And thats all they need to do to accomplish their goals: fling about unfounded fear, uncertainty, and doubt to win over the ignorant.

This does nothing to establish anything you provide as being empirical and irrefuteable data.

The prediction of the centromere has not been confirmed at all. You have simply repeated the biased conundrums of an assumption.

Garbling on about cars does nothing to advance and discussion.

the bulk of the centromeric repetitive DNA has been lost.

How is this explained? By assumptive convolutions that suit.

This is the truth and there is nothing you can say or do to change it..

Thus, statements of sequence homology are not generated from individual
comparative outgroup character analysis as they are in morphological analyses. Rather, the claim of sequence homology is the result of an overall best fit between an artificially reconstructed sequence and subsequent measures of phenetic similarity

http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/pdf/jbi_2141.pdf

You cannot challenge this because this is actually what happens.

From your link:
Main conclusions Humans and orangutans share a common ancestor that excludes the extant African apes.

[Neandertal Ned]

All humans are members of the great ape family, there is nothing to demonstrate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape

When Wiki publically states that Prophet Muhammed was an ape and that all Jews, Arabs, Muslims and Christians are also apes, then I shall accept your ludicrous claim that you are an ape too! Till then, just saying that all humans are apes is simply dogmatic rhetoric to those of us who are not apes.

You must have missed post 1195 where I showed Muslims claiming to be descended from apes. Here are the relevant points again that counter your claim (that no Muslim would consider themselves an ape):

As far as some Islamic views on evolution:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_evolution
- In the 13th century, Nasir al-Din al-Tusi explains how the elements evolved into minerals, then plants, then animals, and then humans. Tusi then goes on to explain how hereditary variability was an important factor for biological evolution of living things:[16]
- Tusi then explains how humans evolved from advanced animals:[16]
"Such humans [probably anthropoid apes] live in the Western Sudan and other distant corners of the world.

- This is what Ibn Maskawayh states and this is precisely what is written in the Epistles of Ikhwan al-Safa. The Muslim thinkers state that ape then evolved into a lower kind of a barbarian man.

- Another prominent and controversial Islamic Scholar, Ghulam Ahmad Pervez holds and defends the view that there is no contradiction between the scientific theory of evolution and Quran's numerous references to the emergence of life in the universe.

- Evolutionary biology is included in the high-school curricula of most Muslim countries. Science foundations of 14 Muslim countries, including Pakistan, Iran, Turkey, Indonesia, and Egypt, recently signed a statement by the Interacademy Panel (IAP, a global network of science academies), in support of the teaching of evolution, including human evolution.

Will you do the honorable thing and retract your claim now that you have been shown to be in error?

You posted stuff from the Middle Ages. I brought you up to date in my Post 1200.

The day you prove me to be in error I will give you a hundred tokens.

Keep your chin up.

[Clownboat]

All humans are members of the great ape family, there is nothing to demonstrate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape

When Wiki publically states that Prophet Muhammed was an ape and that all Jews, Arabs, Muslims and Christians are also apes, then I shall accept your ludicrous claim that you are an ape too! Till then, just saying that all humans are apes is simply dogmatic rhetoric to those of us who are not apes.

You must have missed post 1195 where I showed Muslims claiming to be descended from apes. Here are the relevant points again that counter your claim (that no Muslim would consider themselves an ape):

As far as some Islamic views on evolution:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_evolution
- In the 13th century, Nasir al-Din al-Tusi explains how the elements evolved into minerals, then plants, then animals, and then humans. Tusi then goes on to explain how hereditary variability was an important factor for biological evolution of living things:[16]
- Tusi then explains how humans evolved from advanced animals:[16]
"Such humans [probably anthropoid apes] live in the Western Sudan and other distant corners of the world.

- This is what Ibn Maskawayh states and this is precisely what is written in the Epistles of Ikhwan al-Safa. The Muslim thinkers state that ape then evolved into a lower kind of a barbarian man.

- Another prominent and controversial Islamic Scholar, Ghulam Ahmad Pervez holds and defends the view that there is no contradiction between the scientific theory of evolution and Quran's numerous references to the emergence of life in the universe.

- Evolutionary biology is included in the high-school curricula of most Muslim countries. Science foundations of 14 Muslim countries, including Pakistan, Iran, Turkey, Indonesia, and Egypt, recently signed a statement by the Interacademy Panel (IAP, a global network of science academies), in support of the teaching of evolution, including human evolution.

Will you do the honorable thing and retract your claim now that you have been shown to be in error?

Muslim males think they will get virgins in the afterlife. In the afterlife we are spirits. There are no males and females because spirits do not interbreed. Only a crazed women hater would come up with such nonsense. Only crazed women haters would believe in Mohammed. Muslims believe in Allah and therefore must be as crazy as I am despite their acceptance of TOE.

Some Muslims ascibe to begats and think apes like afarensis can talk to God.

So you disagree with Ned, and agree that there are Muslims that agree with science that they came from apes.

Please inform Ned. Maybe he will retract his false claim if you ask him.

[Clownboat]

All humans are members of the great ape family, there is nothing to demonstrate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape

When Wiki publically states that Prophet Muhammed was an ape and that all Jews, Arabs, Muslims and Christians are also apes, then I shall accept your ludicrous claim that you are an ape too! Till then, just saying that all humans are apes is simply dogmatic rhetoric to those of us who are not apes.

You must have missed post 1195 where I showed Muslims claiming to be descended from apes. Here are the relevant points again that counter your claim (that no Muslim would consider themselves an ape):

As far as some Islamic views on evolution:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_evolution
- In the 13th century, Nasir al-Din al-Tusi explains how the elements evolved into minerals, then plants, then animals, and then humans. Tusi then goes on to explain how hereditary variability was an important factor for biological evolution of living things:[16]
- Tusi then explains how humans evolved from advanced animals:[16]
"Such humans [probably anthropoid apes] live in the Western Sudan and other distant corners of the world.

- This is what Ibn Maskawayh states and this is precisely what is written in the Epistles of Ikhwan al-Safa. The Muslim thinkers state that ape then evolved into a lower kind of a barbarian man.

- Another prominent and controversial Islamic Scholar, Ghulam Ahmad Pervez holds and defends the view that there is no contradiction between the scientific theory of evolution and Quran's numerous references to the emergence of life in the universe.

- Evolutionary biology is included in the high-school curricula of most Muslim countries. Science foundations of 14 Muslim countries, including Pakistan, Iran, Turkey, Indonesia, and Egypt, recently signed a statement by the Interacademy Panel (IAP, a global network of science academies), in support of the teaching of evolution, including human evolution.

Will you do the honorable thing and retract your claim now that you have been shown to be in error?

You posted stuff from the Middle Ages. I brought you up to date in my Post 1200.

The day you prove me to be in error I will give you a hundred tokens.

Keep your chin up.

Readers, please note that Ned is incorrect (or lying) once again. Notice, my information starts in the middle ages and is not only from the middle ages.

Who needs credibility when they have a god on their side?

[Neandertal Ned]

Do you not tire of being wrong all the time?

If you were not indoctrinated into Christianity, it would be much easier to view the information without such a bias, but that is your burden to overcome. It took me many many years, but I was able to do it. Keep your chin up.

In addition to keeping my Christian chin up I shall keep a sharp Christian eye on what is happening in the world of modern Islam since the views of many Muslims today seem to be evolving!

http://www.iheu.org/node/2794

Notice readers, that Ned chose to quote mine me and left out the parts of my post where I showed Muslims agreeing that we came from apes. All this counter to his noise over the last several pages.

Two or three Mulsims agreeing that you are an ape is not very impressive. When applied to humans most Muslims use the word, ape, in a very derogatory and defamatory way.

His reply is also nothing but a strawman because no one claimed that Islamic creationist don't exist.

So you use 'strawman' the same way I do. At least we have something in common other than your African ancestry.

He did not address his error and did not address his indoctrination.

I addressed your Darwinist indoctrination and made no errors.

[Neandertal Ned]

All humans are members of the great ape family, there is nothing to demonstrate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape

When Wiki publically states that Prophet Muhammed was an ape and that all Jews, Arabs, Muslims and Christians are also apes, then I shall accept your ludicrous claim that you are an ape too! Till then, just saying that all humans are apes is simply dogmatic rhetoric to those of us who are not apes.

You must have missed post 1195 where I showed Muslims claiming to be descended from apes. Here are the relevant points again that counter your claim (that no Muslim would consider themselves an ape):

As far as some Islamic views on evolution:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_evolution
- In the 13th century, Nasir al-Din al-Tusi explains how the elements evolved into minerals, then plants, then animals, and then humans. Tusi then goes on to explain how hereditary variability was an important factor for biological evolution of living things:[16]
- Tusi then explains how humans evolved from advanced animals:[16]
"Such humans [probably anthropoid apes] live in the Western Sudan and other distant corners of the world.

- This is what Ibn Maskawayh states and this is precisely what is written in the Epistles of Ikhwan al-Safa. The Muslim thinkers state that ape then evolved into a lower kind of a barbarian man.

- Another prominent and controversial Islamic Scholar, Ghulam Ahmad Pervez holds and defends the view that there is no contradiction between the scientific theory of evolution and Quran's numerous references to the emergence of life in the universe.

- Evolutionary biology is included in the high-school curricula of most Muslim countries. Science foundations of 14 Muslim countries, including Pakistan, Iran, Turkey, Indonesia, and Egypt, recently signed a statement by the Interacademy Panel (IAP, a global network of science academies), in support of the teaching of evolution, including human evolution.

Will you do the honorable thing and retract your claim now that you have been shown to be in error?

You posted stuff from the Middle Ages. I brought you up to date in my Post 1200.

The day you prove me to be in error I will give you a hundred tokens.

Keep your chin up.

Readers, please note that Ned is incorrect (or lying) once again. Notice, my information starts in the middle ages and is not only from the middle ages.

As one of your ardent readers, I thought it best to bring you up to date with the rise of Islamic Creationism in Islamic countries during the past few decades.

Who needs credibility when they have a god on their side?

What credibility do Darwinists have without having God on their side?

None.

[Brian Of Nazareth]

What credibility do Darwinists have without having God on their side?

None.

That simply invites a posting of "That which can be asserted without proof can be discarded without proof".

[Neandertal Ned]

What credibility do Darwinists have without having God on their side?

None.

That simply invites a posting of "That which can be asserted without proof can be discarded without proof".

True. Same goes for Darwinism and any claim of humans being apes.

Why do you think you're an ape? Did someone tell you that or did you just read it in a book?

[Brian Of Nazareth]

True. Same goes for Darwinism and any claim of humans being apes.

Why do you think you're an ape? Did someone tell you that or did you just read it in a book?

When it comes to books, I have read more than one.