Atheism is a leap of faith

[KanzulHuda786]

If I were to say that there was no such thing as gold in China, then to prove my statement, I would have to search every square inch of that country in order to confidently say there was no gold. I would also have to search every person to make sure that there were no gold fillings and search every aeroplane in Chinese airspace. Such a mammoth task would be near impossible but would be necessary in order to prove my statement.
Now lets look at the amount knowledge that a human being can possess. It is obvious that even the smartest person who has ever lived couldn't possess even 1% of all the knowledge in existance. But lets imagine that there existed an Atheist who possessed 1% of all the knowledge in existance. This is of course a huge exaggeration, but for the sake of this argument lets say that someone did possess this amount of knowledge. If this person was honest, they would have to admit that the other 99% of knowledge that they didn't possess could have the evidence that proves God's existance. So as you can see from this very simple example, it is impossible to absolutely state that there is no God. Now back to the example. If I found gold in the tooth of one Chinese citizen, then I could truthfully say that there is gold in China even if that amount of Gold was very small.
To conclude: If you claim to be an Atheist, then with respect I say to you that you are actually and Agnostic in the true sense, although I can respect that you may have chosen not believe in God without proof and in that sense you have chosen to be an Atheist, but your claim to be an atheist is not a scientific one, rather a belief or religion.
To say that there is no God requires absolute knowledge. Knowledge of not only our 4 known and understood dimensions but all the higher dimensions as well and that would be impossible for a 3 dimensional creature such as yourself. However, If you had absolute knowledge then yes God would exist, because you would be God. On the other hand, to say that there is a God only requires personal experience or an understanding that the design in creation warrants a designer. But ultimately there really can only be 2 types of people, believers and agnostics. Those who have seen first hand or can see evidence that gold exists in China and those who believe that gold doesn't exist in China, but can never really be sure that this is so.
Also, Atheists often say they have no faith. This is simply not the case. It has to be said that having faith in nothing is not the same as having no faith. Faith that believes that everything came from nothing is a belief and trust that this is the case even in the absence of proof. No Atheist in the world can claim to have no faith. Rather a person who doesn't know whether God exists or not is the person who has no faith.

Atheism goes against Nature

Throughout the history of the world, the majority of people have believed in God. There seems to be something built in the human mind that makes us want to believe.
Over the last decade some really startling facts have been found that show that children have an innate belief in God. Dr Justin Barrett, a senior researcher at the University of Oxford Centre for Anthropology and Mind, states “The preponderance of scientific evidence for the past 10 years or so has shown that a lot more seems to be built into the natural development of children’s minds than we once thought, including a predisposition to see the natural world as designed and purposeful and that some kind of intelligent being is behind that purpose…� He adds that “If we threw a handful [of children] on an island and they raised themselves…they would believe in God�.. To put it simply, his answer as to why anyone would believe in God is that, our minds are designed to do so . Disbelief in God is something which is unnatural to the human being. Oxford University development psychologist Dr Olivera Petrovich, who is an expert in the Psychology of Religion states that, belief in God develops naturally and that ‘‘atheism is definitely an acquired position’’ .
So where did this natural belief in a creator come from? We can’t say it is taught by society as this belief is innate, and studies show that it is independent of societal pressures and is cross-cultural

[Bust Nak]

...To conclude: If you claim to be an Atheist, then with respect I say to you that you are actually and Agnostic in the true sense, although I can respect that you may have chosen not believe in God without proof and in that sense you have chosen to be an Atheist, but your claim to be an atheist is not a scientific one, rather a belief or religion.

We know that. Look under my usergroup: Agnostic Atheist.

...To say that there is no God requires absolute knowledge. Knowledge of not only our 4 known and understood dimensions but all the higher dimensions as well and that would be impossible for a 3 dimensional creature such as yourself...

That's why we don't say there in no God.

But ultimately there really can only be 2 types of people, believers and agnostics.

Incorrect. Believers and agnostics can overlap too...

Those who have seen first hand or can see evidence that gold exists in China and those who believe that gold doesn't exist in China, but can never really be sure that this is so.

... i.e. those who have not seen first hand or seen evidence that gold exists in China but decides to believe anyway.

Also, Atheists often say they have no faith. This is simply not the case. It has to be said that having faith in nothing is not the same as having no faith. Faith that believes that everything came from nothing is a belief and trust that this is the case even in the absence of proof. No Atheist in the world can claim to have no faith. Rather a person who doesn't know whether God exists or not is the person who has no faith.

Equivocation fallacy: faith can mean blind faith or trust/confident. Don't change the meaning mid conversation.

Throughout the history of the world, the majority of people have believed in God. There seems to be something built in the human mind that makes us want to believe...

Naturalistic fallacy: what is natural is not the same as what is good.

..."If we threw a handful [of children] on an island and they raised themselves…they would believe in God..."

Not likely, some deity sure, but capitial G - Christian God?

So where did this natural belief in a creator come from? We can’t say it is taught by society as this belief is innate, and studies show that it is independent of societal pressures and is cross-cultural

Right, it's evolutionary.

PS Did you get all this from Ray Comfort?

[Boots]

last bit came from here.

http://www.onereason.org/the-god-confus ... d/?lang=ca

Humans also have other instincts besides superstition/god belief. One is to put your hands down to catch you if you fall. This is great to prevent injury to your torso, but will likely break your wrists horribly. A better method is to learn how to fall correctly (as in martial arts training) and overcome this instinct.

We have evolved many things, some of which are good (opposable thumbs, language), some of which are meh or even bad (above instinct is a possible example). I don't think that arguing "we have X instinct, therefore god" is a valid argument.

[LiamOS]

Moderator Action

Moved to Random Ramblings. Please review the Rules and Tips on starting a debate topic.

[Brian Of Nazareth]

To conclude: If you claim to be an Atheist, then with respect I say to you that you are actually and Agnostic in the true sense, although I can respect that you may have chosen not believe in God without proof and in that sense you have chosen to be an Atheist, but your claim to be an atheist is not a scientific one, rather a belief or religion.

I don't accept theism as I have never seen any proof for it, nor can I find any divine inspiration despite reading the Bhagavad Gita, King James Bible, Pitchall translation of the Koran and bemusedly ploughed through the Scientology stuff on Operation Clambake. None of it made much of an impression, although the sheer tedium of Leviticus still makes me wince.

I find the idea that an intelligence could fabricate the impressive scope of the observable universe with its billions of galaxies each containing billions of stars in order to listen to the bickerings of primates on a single small blue planet orbiting a small main sequence star in an insignificant solar system on the spiral arm of a smallish galaxy destined to crash headlong into the Andromeda galaxy in 4bn years time strikes me as egocentric in the extreme.

We are cosmically insignificant. Whilst the wooly comfort of being the centre of everything may be nice, I just can't make that step into the supernatural realm.

[Divine Insight]

But ultimately there really can only be 2 types of people, believers and agnostics.

No, this is wrong.

There can only be two types of people: Those who are honest with themselves and those who are not.

All humans are "agnostic" when it comes to knowing whether or not a God exists.

All that "agnostic" means is "without-knowledge".

No human can know whether a God exists or not. This is why all religions are based on faith.

So ultimately all humans are agnostic.

The only difference is that some people are honest enough to confess it whilst others are not capable of being honest even with themselves.

You may have really "Strong Faith" that a God exists. You may even have very strong intuitive "feelings" that this is the case. But none of that constitutes 'knowledge".

I've recognized this a very long time ago.

We are all "agnostic" when it comes to the existence of a God whether we confess it or not.

So all that truly exists are honest people (people who confess that they are indeed agnostic), and dishonest people, (people who perhaps can't even confess to themselves that they can't truly know whether a God exists or not)

If you tell me that you know that God exists, I'm not about to believe you. That would actually fly in the very face of what most religions claim you need to have (i.e. FAITH)

You wouldn't need to have FAITH, if you knew for certain.

Faith itself requires that you be agnostic (i.e. without absolute knowledge).

[Richard81]

If you truly want to seek the truth, you must first except that you can, and may be wrong. This is what led me to atheism, excepting that I could be wrong. After this, I began to research my own religion, eventually finding it to make little sense. Then, my curiosity sparked, I began to research more into christian beliefs, eventually finding that the god of the old and new testament sounds very evil and cruel, effectively destroying my last shred of faith in christianity. Then, I began to look into other religions, to find that none sound attractive to me at all! Im still an atheist because no religion made any sense to me, and I have no reason to believe any of them are true. Im not even remotely attracted to any. If one were true, you would think I would have a reason to believe it, or I would be attracted to it, but im not, and so I have come to the conclusion that either no god exist, or the creator is not a personal god. If the creator isn't a personal god, then it doesn't matter if I believe or not.

[Divine Insight]

I have come to the conclusion that either no god exist, or the creator is not a personal god. If the creator isn't a personal god, then it doesn't matter if I believe or not.

Exactly. I am in total agreement with your conclusion here Richard.

I have come to the very same conclusion with one possible variation:

You say, "If the creator isn't a personal god, then it doesn't matter if I believe or not."

I'm convinced that even if the creator is some form of personal god it still wouldn't matter whether we believe or not.

Why should that even be important to a personal god?

If there exists a conscious sentient creator who actually desires that we believe in him/her/it, the most intelligent thing such a creator could do is make itself known to us in no uncertain terms.

If a personal god is "hiding" from us, then I think it's safe to say that it doesn't even want us to believe in it. Why would it bother to hide if it was important that we acknowledge it?

~~~~

My personal tenacity toward a continued spiritual faith is not driven by a fear that some god would be upset if I didn't at least try to believe in it. My continued persistence to have a love affair with spirituality is two-fold.

1. I confess that it's an enticing dream.

So I have "faith" as "hope". (which is what faith truly is, IMHO).

Only because I feel that a one-shot lifetime seems like such a waste of universe.

So my "faith" is based on the pure romantic hope that there might be something more to reality than meets the eye. It's not based on a fear that some potentially angry creator might need to be pacified by having me cower down to his ego. That a vision of spirituality that, to me, is not even as attractive as pure secular atheism.

2. For me, a purely secular universe is just as miraculous and mysterious as a mystical reality.

From my perspective Atheism (Hardcore Secular Atheism) is indeed just as much a leap of faith as a belief in a spiritual existence. (I will agree with the OP on that point)

As far as I'm concerned a non-spiritual reality is just as absurd as a spiritual reality.

They are both equally absurd. Neither one is anymore "logical" or "reasonable" to my way of thinking.

So since they are on precisely equal footing why not lean toward the more inviting one?

Of course, as a I say, a spiritual picture is only inviting if it's truly divine and benevolent. It's not inviting if it turns out to be an angry egotist who will cast non-believers into eternal damnation.

So for me, it really comes down to choices.

I can chose to believe whatever I want, and so I imagine the best possible scenario I can imagine and "hope" (i.e. have Faith) that this dream could somehow (against all odds) potentially be true.

I certainly have nothing to lose.

If the universe turns out to be purely secular I haven't lost a thing.

If the angry jealous-God religions turn out to be true, then I still haven't lost a thing because I could never worship or love such a demon anyway. So he may as well cast me into his stupid hell fire. Nothing lost there, because to serve such a lunatic for eternity would itself be hell anyway. May as well, just go straight to hell in the first place.

[AdHoc]

Kanzalhuda786 I'm a believer so I agree with where you are coming from but if I imagine reading this from an atheist's perspective I think most would ask us if we believe in the tooth fairy?

The obvious answer is no and its not because we have searched every corner of the universe in space and time. Somehow we're just 100% sure he or she doesn't exist.

A more interesting question is why you believe in God?

[AdHoc]

But ultimately there really can only be 2 types of people, believers and agnostics.

No, this is wrong.

There can only be two types of people: Those who are honest with themselves and those who are not.

All humans are "agnostic" when it comes to knowing whether or not a God exists.

All that "agnostic" means is "without-knowledge".

No human can know whether a God exists or not. This is why all religions are based on faith.

So ultimately all humans are agnostic.

The only difference is that some people are honest enough to confess it whilst others are not capable of being honest even with themselves.

You may have really "Strong Faith" that a God exists. You may even have very strong intuitive "feelings" that this is the case. But none of that constitutes 'knowledge".

I've recognized this a very long time ago.

We are all "agnostic" when it comes to the existence of a God whether we confess it or not.

So all that truly exists are honest people (people who confess that they are indeed agnostic), and dishonest people, (people who perhaps can't even confess to themselves that they can't truly know whether a God exists or not)

If you tell me that you know that God exists, I'm not about to believe you. That would actually fly in the very face of what most religions claim you need to have (i.e. FAITH)

You wouldn't need to have FAITH, if you knew for certain.

Faith itself requires that you be agnostic (i.e. without absolute knowledge).

When the average person uses the word "theory" they mean something totally different than when a scientist uses the word "theory". In a similar way I think you are using the word "faith" alot different that Christians do.