Is belief a choice?

[Justin108]

Christians tell me all the time that atheist deserve hell because they "chose" to reject god by not believing in him. They tell me that of I believe then I will be saved as though I can simply choose what I want to believe. How is belief a choice?

If I offered you $10 000 to believe that I was George Clooney, would you start choosing to believe I'm George Clooney?

[Moses Yoder]

I don't believe we have a choice in what stimula we receive, but I think we choose how to react to that stimula. It is the same thing as choosing to eat at McDonalds or Wendys. To say we have no choice is not exactly right, but we do not have much of a choice in what we like and don't like (this is determined by genetics & environment) and we don't have a choice in the stimula we receive.

[ttruscott]

Christians tell me all the time that atheist deserve hell because they "chose" to reject god by not believing in him. They tell me that of I believe then I will be saved as though I can simply choose what I want to believe. How is belief a choice?

If I offered you $10 000 to believe that I was George Clooney, would you start choosing to believe I'm George Clooney?

Not all Christians will tell you that, only those who believe in free will. Many don't.

These folk know free will is necessaary. This life is the only life they know about so they assume this is where we must have our free will though scripture hints otherwise.

The theology I accept solves the problem this way: we believe that we had a life before earth in the spiritual realm where we made our true free will decisions to accept or reject GOD by faith, ie based upon which life we thought would give us the best and most happiness but without proof:

1. a life with this (supposed) GOD who was perfect and (supposedly) created us to join HIM in that perfection and in loving holy communion forever but who would damn anyone who became HIS eternal enemy by rejecting HIS plan for their creation,
or
2. a life in which we were just as important as the false god, better in fact because we were not liars about ourselves. A life in which we are our own GOD and our laws and our love is the epitomé of perfection. A life in which we bow to no one.
or
3. a life being (or following) any other kind of god of any description based upon thoughts that this (supposed) GOD was a false god but had a good gig going and they wanted in on the action.

These decisions are finished, over and done, ie we aren't here to choose to accept or reject GOD but earth was created as the place for us to work out these choices to GOD's good purpose.

So don't worry about choosing to believe or not, GOD has it covered from a long time ago...

Peace, Ted

[scourge99]

I don't believe we have a choice in what stimula we receive, but I think we choose how to react to that stimula. It is the same thing as choosing to eat at McDonalds or Wendys.

I think you should examine this a bit deeper. What do you mean exactly when you say that you can "choose" whether to eat at McDonalds or Wendys?
Does it mean:
1) if the universe were rewinded so that everything was exactly the same (including your memories) then you could have chosen differently.

2) you had internal deliberation about the two options and picked one.

If you say #1 then please provide an explanation for how a different choice occurred if everything was exactly the same. That is, if you chose Wendys and then the universe was rewinded so that everything was exactly the same, even your memories, then we would expect you to pick Wendys everytime. Even if we testes it an infinite amount of times. But, for example, if there is some type of randomness to the universe then that might explain why you would somtimes choose McDonalds.


If you say #2 then can you explain how you determined that having internal deliberation about the options is indicative that either option could have been chosen? That is, just because i think to myself that i have a several options on a matter doesn't mean i actually can choose anything other than the one option that i am fated to make. For example, if i think to myself whether to eat Wendys or McDonalds, and i choose McDonalds, how can i know that i could have chosen Wendys given that situation? Bear in mind that I am not questioning whether its hypothetically possible for you to eat at Wendys. I am questioning how you know there can be anymore than a single determined outcome given a particular situation.

To say we have no choice is not exactly right, but we do not have much of a choice in what we like and don't like (this is determined by genetics & environment) and we don't have a choice in the stimula we receive.

Don't our choices ultimately arise from our likes and dislikes? If we cannot control our likes and dislikes, how can we claim to be in control our choices? That is, can you explain what exactly you think we base our choices on that is under our control?

[cnorman18]

If religious belief were always and forever nothing more than a matter of making claims of objective fact about the Universe, then it would not and could not be a "choice." It would be a guess or a hope at best, at worst an assumption or even a delusion.

If, on the other hand, religious belief is a matter of the values and priorities by which one lives, it IS a choice, and further, a choice which must be renewed every day.

I have no use for dogma, and the idea that "religion = dogma" holds no interest for me.

[Goat]

Christians tell me all the time that atheist deserve hell because they "chose" to reject god by not believing in him. They tell me that of I believe then I will be saved as though I can simply choose what I want to believe. How is belief a choice?

If I offered you $10 000 to believe that I was George Clooney, would you start choosing to believe I'm George Clooney?

Deuteronomy 30:19 (KJV)
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Life and death is set before all

Choose

That is a fine statement of religious belief. Can you show that actually means anything, and what you think it means?\

[scourge99]

If religious belief were always and forever nothing more than a matter of making claims of objective fact about the Universe, then it would not and could not be a "choice." It would be a guess or a hope at best, at worst an assumption or even a delusion.

If, on the other hand, religious belief is a matter of the values and priorities by which one lives, it IS a choice, and further, a choice which must be renewed every day.

Did you choose your priorities and values or are they more like uncontrollable and spontaneous part of your character and being?

What keeps your from having different priorities or values? Is that under your control? Is that a choice?

If you consciously choose your values and priorities then can you explain the basis by which you chose the values and priorities you did? Can you then explain the basis of the basis by which you made the chose the values and priorities you did? And so on and so forth.... This leads to an infinite regression or eventually our choices boil down to factors beyond our ability to choose or control. Thus, at our core we do not really choose. We certainly do deliberate and think (and in that sense we have the sensation of "choosing"; and as Dennet would say, that is the only form of freewill worth having) but it does not appear that we have any control over what we choose.

In short, Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... -your-will

[cnorman18]

If religious belief were always and forever nothing more than a matter of making claims of objective fact about the Universe, then it would not and could not be a "choice." It would be a guess or a hope at best, at worst an assumption or even a delusion.

If, on the other hand, religious belief is a matter of the values and priorities by which one lives, it IS a choice, and further, a choice which must be renewed every day.

Did you choose your priorities and values or are they more like uncontrollable and spontaneous part of your character and being?

What keeps your from having different priorities or values? Is that under your control? Is that a choice?

If you consciously choose your values and priorities then can you explain the basis by which you chose the values and priorities you did? Can you then explain the basis of the basis by which you made the chose the values and priorities you did? And so on and so forth.... This leads to an infinite regression or eventually our choices boil down to factors beyond our ability to choose or control. Thus, at our core we do not really choose. We certainly do deliberate and think (and in that sense we have the sensation of "choosing"; and as Dennet would say, that is the only form of freewill worth having) but it does not appear that we have any control over what we choose.

In short, Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... -your-will

I enjoyed the article, but I have to wonder if you actually read all of it. In particular, this:

...But before reaching any sweeping conclusions, it is important to remember that this study looked at a very rudimentary kind of action. The decision to move a finger hardly ranks as the same kind of free will we exercise when we make moral choices or major life decisions. To conclude that we aren’t fully responsible for our actions, for example, would be extremely far-fetched.

There were more caveats in the article; that was only the first. I'd have been VERY surprised if Scientific American were making sweeping claims as bold as your own, and sure enough, it wasn't. Interesting research, to be sure, but as the article itself says, it's a LONG way from conclusive.

I'd also point out that the assumption here is that the conscious mind is all there is. If you want an examination of the evidence that thinking is not necessarily a conscious process, take a look at Julian Jaynes's The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. Studying the process of thought and the consciousness of decision-making is not the same as studying "free will."

In any case, if I had realized that this debate had degenerated into that hoary old argument over whether or not there is such a thing as "free will," I'd have stayed out of it. Till someone can show me the PRACTICAL difference, in my own life, between my actually having free will and the enormous, overwhelming, continuous, and invariably consistent "illusion" that I do, I regard that particular debate as a waste of time -- and I CHOOSE not to engage in it. As I have said many times; if there is ANY claim which demands that we all ignore the direct testimony of our own experiences and accept a theoretical claim as dogma in direct contradiction to an enormous amount of objective and verifiable evidence, "there is no free will" is that claim.

Tell me when I get to stop pretending to make choices, and while you're at it, prove to me that I am actually "pretending" as opposed to actually making them, and I'll join the seminar on how many angels can dance on the head of this particular pin. Till then, I suppose I'll just have to keep pretending to choose what to have for breakfast, whether and what to post on any particular thread, etc. -- as everyone, including yourself, will continue to do as well.

[Justin108]

Christians tell me all the time that atheist deserve hell because they "chose" to reject god by not believing in him. They tell me that of I believe then I will be saved as though I can simply choose what I want to believe. How is belief a choice?

If I offered you $10 000 to believe that I was George Clooney, would you start choosing to believe I'm George Clooney?

Deuteronomy 30:19 (KJV)
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Life and death is set before all

Choose

You're completely ignoring the point I'm making. Did you bother reading my analogy?

[bobingersoll]

How is belief a choice?

I am no expert, but it seems to me that "believing" is a mindset, for lack of a better word. Some people are easy to convince, almost eager to believe what the person before them is presenting. And that "belief" becomes so ingrained in their mind that, like a bad habit, it hangs on, usually for life.

I was a "believer" for 25 years. Somehow the hold that belief had in my brain was weakened, finally to the point that I could see that it was no longer necessary nor useful to me, and in fact, was never necessary or useful. But when I was a believer, I remember that I could never imagine a day that I would not believe.
Now, I don't "believe" anything. I make conclusions based on evidence and experience. No "faith" is necessary in my life.

Someone once said "Believing is easier than thinking, that is why there is so many more believers than thinkers".

[1213]

Christians tell me all the time that atheist deserve hell because they "chose" to reject god by not believing in him. They tell me that of I believe then I will be saved as though I can simply choose what I want to believe. How is belief a choice?

If I offered you $10 000 to believe that I was George Clooney, would you start choosing to believe I'm George Clooney?

I think the question is not to believe God’s existence. It is more about believing what Jesus said.

He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn't believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.
John 3:18
This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.
John 3:19-21

If you don’t receive what Jesus said, that is problem, not that if you don’t believe he was or that God is. Those words that Jesus said could give you life, because they could make you righteous and only righteous will have eternal life, according to Bible.

And righteous will have life, because they are faithful to God and keep his words, because they understand it is good.