Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?

[Nickman]

Cholland said he would like to debate this point so here it is.

Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?

What prophecies does he fulfill and why?

Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?

Cholland your up.....

[Nickman]

Greetings
What you are now withnessing is 2 Jews with 2 differing opinions.

Im not Jewish, never was, never will be. (No offense to Jews)

Note my question is simple.
1.All your demands that you wrote above that the Messiah must fillfull please reference it to the OT.
2.So far as what is possible or impossible is in Gods hands and as such if Jesus has to return back to earth and fillfull all your demands.Will you as a Jew accept him as your Messiah?
Yes or no.

I dont see why you should have any difficulty in answering such a simple question unless maybe there is something hidden in the closet.


May peace and blessings be upon Jesus,his mother Mary and all mentioned Prophets.
May you all have a peaceful

Im addressing your questions numerically.

1. All demands I wrote were referenced by the Hebrew bible with chapter and verse annotations along with the actual verses. Did you actually read them? I took the verses you posted first and quoted the rest of the chapters not just the verse you ripped out of context. I posted each reference first and then expounded on those verses. You just posted verses out of context and said "see Jesus fulfilled this". I showed why Jesus didn't fulfill them by posting most of the chapter, not just the verse.

2. Nice special pleading tactic. I already answered this by giving you a reference to the thread where I answered this previously in a debate with another member. Its not my fault you don't actually debate or care to do so. If I ask somone a question and they give me reference where my question is answered instead of them having to repeat a long detailed post, I look at the post because I actually debate properly. You don't care about my answer because you didn't take the time to research my answer or read any of my post. If I just say "no" then I have not given any justification for why. So instead of giving an unsupported answer I gave you one that tells why. Jesus cannot fulfill the requirements because he is dead and his claims he made in the Olivet discourse failed. The link I provided to the Olivet discourse thread gives you the reason and supporting evidence as to why I say no. So if you tell me one more time I never answered your questions when before you even posted your first post they were already answered then you and I are done. For someone who wants an answer so badly, you don't make any effort to research the answer given.

Now do me a favor and address my long detailed post above instead of using dishonest propaganda, as Cnorman put it. Why can't you address that? It seems that when you post something you don't expect someone to refute it and when they do you have nothing to back up your claim so you resort to all sorts of fallacious arguments as cnorman listed all of them in a previous post.

[cnorman18]

...Prove that assertion with documentation...If you can't document it, it didn't happen...

Tell me please, what formal stipulations were present within the various Judaisms of the first century prior to the death of Jesus?

Then tell me please, what formal stipulations were subsequently incorporated within the fragment of Judaism that survived the destruction of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and when did these formal stipulations become incorporated?

Finally, tell me please, why were those formal stipulations incorporated?

YOU made the unsupported claim. It is for YOU to document it. If you can't, admit it and retract it.

...your deceptive tactic of repeatedly putting words in my mouth...

Take a deep breath and relax. It is not I who have put words in your mouth, but rather you have been putting words in my mouth.

Can you prove THAT false claim? I can prove my TRUE claim with two words: "true Jew."

Retract your falsehoods or we are done. There's not much more to say anyway, since you consistently refuse to acknowledge or respond to my arguments anyway, e.g. the distinction between the Jewish Messiah and the Christian Christ, which is the central issue of this whole "debate." There are others, but that is the most glaring -- and don't bother to follow till you prove or retract your phony claims, because I won't debate a person who demonstrates such a low regard for the truth and for rational, civil debate.

[EduChris]

...YOU made the unsupported claim. It is for YOU to document it. If you can't, admit it and retract it...

If you were to answer the above questions honestly, the matter would be fully documented by your own honest answers.

...two words: "true Jew."...

Others here have noticed your dissembling and prevarications and semantic legerdemain in this regard. You claim that my Jewish cousin is in certain respects "less a Jew" than those Jews who differ from him only in their assessment of Jesus the Jew.

...the distinction between the Jewish Messiah and the Christian Christ...is the central issue of this whole "debate."...debate.

And that question was originally an intra-Jewish debate, wasn't it? The fact that various Jews hold differing opinions on the matter is hardly surprising. But again, if the reasons why Jesus the Jew's earliest Jewish followers ultimately accepted him as the Jewish Messiah are valid, then Jesus the Jew is the Jewish Messiah, and no amount of popular vote (or dogmatic thought control) can change that.

[cnorman18]

...YOU made the unsupported claim. It is for YOU to document it. If you can't, admit it and retract it...

If you were to answer the above questions honestly, the matter would be fully documented by your own honest answers.

...two words: "true Jew."...

Others here have noticed your dissembling and prevarications and semantic legerdemain in this regard. You claim that my Jewish cousin is in certain respects "less a Jew" than those Jews who differ from him only in their assessment of Jesus the Jew.

...the distinction between the Jewish Messiah and the Christian Christ...is the central issue of this whole "debate."...debate.

And that question was originally an intra-Jewish debate, wasn't it? The fact that various Jews hold differing opinions on the matter is hardly surprising. But again, if the reasons why Jesus the Jew's earliest Jewish followers ultimately accepted him as the Jewish Messiah are valid, then Jesus the Jew is the Jewism Messiah, and no amount of popular vote can change that.

Still refusing to retract OR to prove your claims, including your new one alleging my "dissembling and prevarication," which once again I demand that you PROVE with direct quotes. Still refusing to deal directly with my arguments, appealing to Christian scripture as if it held weight or authority for Jews.

You have no support for your claims and accusations, no arguments in response to my arguments, and essentially nothing to say beyond your continuing campaign to force Christian definitions, standards and beliefs on Jews.

Good day. You have accomplished nothing other than demonstrating you inability to engage in civil debate and your casual approach to the truth.

[otseng]

Moderator Intervention

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[arian]

I've started at least two threads on this topic in the past, perhaps more. I don't find it much worth debating any more; even when I did, it was only of interest in an academic or theoretical sense.

The question is not about whether Jesus fulfilled this or that "prophecy," or even whether this or that passage is a "Messianic prophecy" at all. Nor is it about whether the Christian Christ and the Jewish Messiah are the same figure (they clearly aren't). The issue is that Christianity and Judaism are two wholly different approaches to the questions of religion -- the relationship between man and God, the role of each in that relationship, and the very meaning and purpose of religion, of faith, and of human existence.

Among the key concepts in Christianity are the ideas that (1) humans need individual salvation from sin, (2) that that salvation may only be obtained through faith (or belief, or trust), (3) in the substitutionary death/sacrifice of a (4) divine Savior who is at once both God and Man, (5) and who, as token and proof of his divinity and sacrifice, rose from the dead.

None of those ideas are or were to be found in the Jewish religion.

Of course not, divinations are an abomination according to the Jewish OT. And where can anyone find Christ's divinity (an abomination in the Old and New) in the Bible?

People really must stop interpreting the Bible by Constantine's Catholic Christian Religion and just go by what it actually teaches.

God rose Jesus from the dead, the Heavenly Father of the Son who was sent to earth, die and be resurrected by the Father. Jesus was not some deity showing off his divinity who divined some messages from the supernatural realm. Jesus is not God the Father, nor was He some Warlock with supernatural magical powers, nor a Medium for some demonic spirits.

Jesus was the 'Son of God, begotten by God as Gods first creation named Word. In the beginning, before all other creations was the Word, and the Word was with God and as Eve was Adam (before she was begotten of Adam), the Word WAS God (before He was begotten of God) who was sent into the world on a mission. He fulfilled that mission and now is seated on the right hand of the Power of God.

"He that believes and confesses that Jesus was the Son of God will be saved", but there is no promise for those that call Jesus some Devine being, 'a god' amongst all the other gods like we learned through theology.

I suppose it's reasonable to speculate that God might "surprise" humans; but introducing an entirely new structure and grammar to His relationship with His people, and discarding and denying virtually everything that He has revealed or commanded in the past, goes rather far beyond that. It's not so much Jesus that we Jews reject; it's the Christian religion itself, which requires us to throw out everything that constitutes our own religion in favor of accepting and believing concepts and dogmas that are foreign to us

Amen to that Cnorman18, as a Jew I would never accept some Gentile pagan plural-god (as if that was possible, 'one gods'??) as my God through some religion that was invented by Constantine and his idol-worshipping high-priests, ... it is against everything the Old and the New Testament teaches. Christianity is a gentile religion invented by the gentiles and is studied through theology, but the Bible teaches about 'faith', like Abraham, Moses, Daniel, Joseph, Isaac, Jacob (Israel) and on to the New Testament Apostles who wrote down the message brought to us by the Son of God Himself, Jesus the Messiah.

Paul a true-Jew introduced the Gospels to the Gentiles, thus fulfilling the plan God had for all mankind; 'to save the whole world from their sins'! This is the truth and the message, and it is time for both Jews and Gentiles to step away from religious doctrines of men, and turn back to Gods Word and seek wisdom and understanding through Gods Holy Spirit instead of religious doctrines, practices and habits. "It is by faith we are saved, not by works, ... and the only way we can show our faith is by what it makes us do. NOT 'do' to show my faith, but acting on faith, unselfish faith like Able and Abraham and the rest of our great men of faith.

-- when Judaism does not acknowledge the need or use of "accepting and believing concepts and dogmas" at all.

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion and belief on these matters; it's not like anyone is about to prove any of them true or false. But Christianity is not Judaism, the Christ was not the Messiah, and for us Jews at least, the question was settled two thousand years ago. We are Jews; we are not Christians. We spend about as much time thinking about Jesus as we spend thinking about the Buddha. He doesn't matter to us. And, yes, on this matter I CAN speak for virtually all Jews.

Woe... bit your tongue almost right clean off there brother. I'm a Jew, and so were our brothers the Apostles and we all believed that Jesus WAS the Messiah. Now if your speaking for virtually all the Jews who crucified Jesus at that time, now that's different, it was 'virtually/nearly/almost all the Jews, but NOT ALL.'

The truth remains today as it did during Christ, that the Jews served another god called mammon over their God 'I Am', and when they heard the Message that God sent through His Son, it struck them in the heart; "What, ... don't care about the things of this world? What is he talking about? Look, ... did you hear that, He asked that wealthy young Ruler to give all his money to the poor and follow Him! This is madness! What would a Jew be without money? What, ... live on faith alone, that is incomprehensible for us Jews no matter what our Patriarchs have achieved in the past. Look what this Jew did with the money-changers in the Temple, He flipped all their tables upside down dumping all that money on the floor, ... oh no you don't, ... not the kind of King we were looking for no matter who He thinks He is, or what 'God' sent Him! We made up a god-of-Abraham, and he likes money as much as we do, HIM do we serve! As for this man, ... 'Crucify Him!'
We told Moses the same thing, ... 'you talk to God, we'll just keep the tablets with the laws. We'll keep the laws, and even add hundreds more to it as long as we don't have to listen to God, ... He frightens us ... we can feel Him look right through us and we feel all naked before Him. No, let God keep His distance from us and we'll just do what He tells us."

We spend about as much time thinking about Jesus as we spend thinking about the Buddha

Yes, and that goes for thinking about God too, ... remember that Jews are well known for their new religion, ... atheism. Loyal servants of the Beast that was mortally wounded, a nation that almost wiped them out just seventy years ago. They helped the beast build the concentration camps, they helped keep the lines quiet, straight and orderly and moving without interruption into the gas chambers. This enabled the Beast to have one soldier to watch over a thousand Jews. What loyalty... even to the death.

Yes, and once again the lines are moving quietly, only now the Jews help the followers of Christ onto the death beds first, to be put to sleep by lethal-injection.

Everyone else can argue about these things as much as you like. A few Jews followed Jesus in his own day, and now and again a few still do (though very many former Christians take up the faith of Jesus himself, as I did). Peace to them all; for the overwhelming majority of us, the questions have not changed, and neither have the answers.

Lay them on me brother, see if my Jewish Brother Jesus will not answer every one of your questions through me. Now for you to accept them, ... well that's a different story. But who knows, ... the time may have come for God to drop those scales from your eyes and see the danger you are facing? I pray Lord that it would be now, for time is very, ... very short, and Satan knows that.

Let us all follow and serve God in our own ways, and let us all -- Christians, Jews, Muslims. and humanists alike -- work together for human freedom, human dignity, and peace, against the idol worshipers of our own day, those who worship power, or money, or themselves. There's much to be done there before we begin settling questions that no one can settle.

Christians, Jews, Muslims. and humanists alike -- work together for human freedom, human dignity, and peace

My brother, can you tell me what Medium you got this idea from? It sure isn't from the Torah or any Bible version I have read so far for the Jewish Bible God doesn't welcome other gods into His Kingdom?
You mentioned three OPPOSING religions who are as we speak murdering each other, all in the name of their god. What kind of delusion of human freedom, human dignity and peace can you derive from this mess, I would love to hear it?

Now its a proven fact that under Jesus guidance and teaching hundreds of nationalities that otherwise murdered each other have lived side by side in this USA of ours in peace for hundreds of years, but they all had to accept the rules of this land, which they trusted to a point that they risked their lives to come and live under. It guaranteed them prosperity and peace between each other, so what form of God worship are you proposing that these different religions with their different gods sending them very different messages could work together under?

I know it's not Jesus Christ as you said yourself above, because you are helping to tear this country from its Bible Christ-taught rules and teachings, ... so if not Christ's message of 'love one another, and love your neighbor as yourself', what alternative religion do you propose? Is it this New One World Trillionares-club Rulers message of; "You are nothing but a dumb ape so; pollute for clean air, pornography and abortion to reduce population, kill all wildlife (sea and land) and control all farms so they beg us for food" Beyond Utopian religion? No thanks, ... it's about as much of this peace and love that I can bare or afford....

We Jews at concerned with this life; the next, we leave to God. If we are wrong to do so, that is between God and us. And as far as I, for one, am concerned, that is the end of the matter.

No, ... YOU Jews, not WE Jews, don't include me in your double-suicide mission (body and soul), and yes your choices will be between God and you, and as long as you breathe, it is NOT the end of the matter. You still have a choice, you can still pry up some floor boards from the catle-cars and ask God to help you escape before you pull into the death camps. Unless you are one of those Jewish trustees who helps the lines move faster, and the bodies to be buried quicker?

Open your eyes... just because the cattle-cars have seats and serve you snacks doesn't mean things are different! It's the same track leading to the same destination.

[Tex]

Arine wrote:

"He that believes and confesses that Jesus was the Son of God will be saved", but there is no promise for those that call Jesus some Devine being, 'a god' amongst all the other gods like we learned through theology.

Tex: As a Jew, you should realize that God the Father is the only Savior. Therefore what you preach, in the old day would get you stoned/killed as a Jew. Only God can be a mans savior. Plus....God didn't mention anything about having a son in the OT.
So either Lord Jesus is God or else he cannot be your savior.

[cnorman18]

To Arian:

I have no interest in your posts, and less in responding to them. Be well.

[arian]

...this is not "cnorman's doctrine." This is a matter of long-settled Jewish law and tradition, which was determined centuries before "cnorman18" OR "messianic Judaism" came on the scene.

I think the critical issue of this: in what sense is it logical to claim that "the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah; therefore, Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah"? This is a direct claim against the Christian faith, in the sense that it is intended to portray the Christian understanding of Jesus as a complete mistake.

That is nonsense, of course. Christians may think or believe anything they like without regard to anything Jews say or believe, just as Jews have the right to think or believe anything WE like without regard to Christian judgments about it.

If you think that the legitimacy of YOUR beliefs somehow depends on Jewish judgments about it, that is YOUR problem, not ours. It makes NO sense to hold Jewish beliefs hostage to Christian claims, and I'm not going to agree that it does. Not ever. Get over it.

I would agree that a majority of Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah.

How about "overwhelming majority"?

I would agree that in the decades and centuries after Jesus, the Jewish leaders adopted ad hoc stipulations to ensure that any Jewish person who accepts Jesus as the Jewish Messiah is thereby and automatically bounced out of what the mainstream Jewish faith tradition has turned out to be.

THAT is a blatantly polemic claim which requires documentation and proof. The reasons for rejecting Jesus as Messiah were never "ad hoc" nor disingenuous or dishonest, as that claim very clearly implies; they were well-reasoned and backed up by centuries of Jewish tradition. I have posted links to websites which explicate those reasons in detail, e.g. the Jews for Judaism site on this very thread, and I have also explained them in detail myself on several threads here, some of which you have posted in. You should know better.

Prove that scurrilous and false claim or retract it. I will NOT allow you to ignore this issue and move on as you have done with your repeated instances of putting words in my mouth.

If you want to talk about history, about religious authorities preventing conversion by edict and by imposing dire consequences, you might consider the FACT that conversion to Judaism by Christians carried the penalty of death by burning alive all over Europe for more than a thousand years -- for the Christian convert AND for all the Jews who assisted or encouraged him. Those penalties would not have existed if it hadn't been happening.

Honestly, the claim you made above is both false and contemptible. As I said; prove it or retract it.

What I cannot accept, however, is the claim that all Jews reject Jesus as their Messiah.

I have never made such a claim; in fact, I have acknowledged that a minuscule percentage of Jews, most of whom were either secular or relatively unlearned about their birth religion, have occasionally converted to Christianity over the centuries. I have said that consistently for five years.

Some Jews did accept him from the very beginning, and all throughout the centuries there have been Jews who have accepted Jesus as their Messiah (cnorman refers to these folks as converts from Judaism to Christianity).

And that is the correct nomenclature. Show me a Jew who believes in Jesus as the mortal, human, non-divine Messiah, as opposed to the divine Christian savior and resurrected Christ, and I will stand corrected. Go ahead.

I am one of those Jews. I oppose the label of Devine (an abomination to the Jew) to Jesus, who was all man once He was born of Mary, ALL His power came from Gods Holy Spirit as He said all our power to heal, raise the dead will also come from God, and the Apostles exercised those powers.

So I profess a mortal, human, non-divine Messiah, who died and by the Power of God was brought back to life on the third day as it was prophesied by my Jewish Prophets of Old.

What do you mean Christian Savior? Jesus was not a 'Christian', ... He WAS the Christ. He didn't establish any Christian Church, that would be silly, Constantine did who used the Bible to take over and rule man AND their soul. This was Satans plan and it explains it in Revelations and other Old Testament prophesies.

This present bloody Constantine's Christian 1,700 year rule by the sword is soon coming to an end, and Christ Kingdom is beginning revealed, slowly descending from Heaven. It is still not a Kingdom that our eyes can see, it is a real, true and eternal Spiritual Kingdom, descending as this present physical universe, the earth and all the works in it is slowly vanishing as a puff of smoke.

May I ask you cnorman18, did a Jewish community, or Israel chose you to speak for all Jews and even claim to have final word on it, or is this your idea alone?

What we Believers speak is not our own, but what we read in the Bible, which speaks to all mankind, I am a worm, nothing. Only Christ in us is of great value if we speak it in truth (and not go beyond what He said, ... as He already warned me of doing a few years ago)

My proof of God:
I came from a line of communist countries in Europe where the worst was in Russia and Romania. They all decided to accept an idea that God did not exist (not Buddha, Zeus nor Satan the god of this world, but mostly the God of the Bible, the Jewish God) ... so they went on a quest to drive God out of these countries.

Now please tell me just how ironic is that?

If God does not exist and I am convinced of that, why would I kill my fellow countrymen, and even my own brothers and sisters for what they think? Why would I torture them, lock them up for ten years and deprive them of food and water, ... it makes no sense. Why, do they look like God? Has anyone said:

"Aha! I just seen God enter that guy, quickly arrest him and let's torture God out if him!" lol... of course they didn't see God enter anyone, nor has anyone claimed to have seen God anywhere in the country.

Now ask yourself, what made them kill their fellow man, their own families when they already decided that God does not exist? He cannot be seen, and when they brought Ministers before the people and asked them to reveal God to everyone, he was unable to. No one seen God anywhere, they didn't hear any audible voice of Him, and they would even announce that fact; "See, ... there is no GOD! The Minister of God couldn't manifest Him, and no one has come forth to claim they saw Him either... so let us live in peace and harmony without this mythical children's fairytale God!"

... and they went and continued to torture, imprison, and kill their fellow man ... chasing after a God they couldn't see and didn't believe in???

... or did they? Their actions was proof that they did believe, and it shall be a witness against them on that Day, as the Son of man, the Messiah will be against all humanity that say they don't believe in Him, Jew first, and the Gentiles after.

[cnorman18]

Arian,

Let me explain it this way; you lost me with "What would a Jew be without money?" and your disgusting remarks about Jews being complicit in the Holocaust. You are on my Ignore list. I can't see your posts, and I don't want to. Clear?