Is free-will more important than preventing suffering?

[razovor]

I want to see what people think. Is the preservation of Free Will a good reason to leave humans with the capability to commit any degree of suffering they wish, or should there be some sort of upper limit?

For example, given the choice, would you, with full knowledge of everything he was going to do in later life, have stripped Adolf Hitler of his free will at birth, so that he was incapable of every doing anything immoral?

[ttruscott]

On earth we have no free will as we are either under the power of sin or the grace of GOD.

Then why did God allow evil? The usual Christian defense is that for God to have eliminated evil, He would have had to ride roughshod over free-will. Without free will, what excuse does the Christian apologist have for a god who has allowed sin and evil to have so much influence and control in his creation?

Just read the whole topic eh? With a look at post #4?

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

I do understand that love is 'organic' and just grows without a seeming choice involved. But what about our love for our neighbours? This love is a love by choice, no? The "I don't have an emotional attachment to you but I will act in your best interest even at a cost to myself." kind of love?

There in no choice in loving my neighbout either. I am biologically wired that way as it were. Now there are lots of choices after the fact, I can choose to act in certain ways or not, but my emotion, including concern for others, is not under my conscious control.

Love has an emotinal component but it also has a rational component.
Deuteronomy 6:5 & Matthew 22:
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.

How can the command to love as the feeling be fulfilled? I'll tell you how, no need to get creative. You choose to commit yourself to the care and love of GOD pledging your own loyalty and dedication by choice as best you can, trusting (by faith) that HE will in fact bring you to the fruition of this command....when you do love HIM as HE loves you.

As for love as behaviour, choices to do things, that one is easy... Love is fulfilled in choosing holiness.

But both answers rest solidly upon our free will. It is the nature of things in GOD's reality.

If you had to choose whether to bow to a person as your GOD or not without proof so you weren't forced by the knowledge that HE really was or wasn't GOD, then it is obvious that IF you learned the proof one way or the other, you would no more have the freedom of will to chose from your own desires but your choice would be forced into line of what you now see to be in your own best interest. Proof destroys free will.

I don't know, it's really counter intuitive to treat an uninformed decision as superior in any way than an informed decision.

IF 3 people introduces themselves to you as your GOD and ask you to accept HIS purpose for your creation (ie HIS will for you), promising 3 thousand good things for you life and happiness along with all the dangers and perils of leaving HIS purpose, AND

explains the 3 thousand consequences of rejecting HIS purpose for you; how you will be changed to an evil person who cannot repent and fit only to be discarded after being judged for your sin and the life you lead will be one of general suffering on earth and eternal suffering in hell,

can you say you are uninformed?You may be assured you were totally informed but you did not have the proof that what you were being told was true or a lie.

YOU got to decide if you thought it was truth or a lie based upon which kind of life YOU thought would give you the most happiness: a life bowing to this supposed GOD in hope to get HIS supposed promises or

a life refusing to bow to a supposed false god because YOU thought you were as good as this fake god and you would have more happiness standing up for yourself against HIS threats of damantion.

You are not asking for information about the choice, you are asking for proof. If you had the proof of eternal life or eternal hell before you chose, how would you choose? How would anyone ever choose to go to hell? But with proof then they have no way to explore their own minds and hearts for which supposed life would give them the most happiness; your 'perfectly you' desires are overridden and coerced by the truth you have learned, the proof of GOD's reality.

...The only thing that can break this addiction to evil is the grace of GOD and we live under HIS grace on earth until we are perfect in sanctification, loving and being holy by choice at which time we will never sin agin because we are properly consrained by knowing the true nature of GOD and by our own love and holy character.

On earth we have no free will as we are either under the power of sin or the grace of GOD.

I may have gotten the wrong end of the stick. When do we have free will, if we are either under the power of sin or the grace of God on earth, and constrained by knowledge in heaven?

Missed that, eh? I bet you saw it but felt it was fairly meaningless so you passed it by.

Here is one quote from you (post #22?)
(Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:27 am) from an earlier post of mine (#20?) that has it:

The Elements of a True Free Will Choice:...
It was in part that this ultimate definition of the freedom of our will at creation could not be applicable to our lives here one earth that led me to re-consider more closely the PCE doctrine that we had a pre-earth life where all these choices were made under these conditions of full freedom of choice.

All the spirits made in GOD's image with the ability to make true free will decisions were created at the same time before the creation of the physical universe in the spirit world (Sheol) where we had the experiences I've been talking about.

We come to be born on earth to work out our previously made, (pre-earth), decisions that self created our eternal realtionship with GOD, especially the decisions of the some elect to become evil in GOD's eyes, not to find or decide upon or create our eternal relationship with GOD here.

If this does not sit well with you, I'm sorry you missed it back then and wasted your time. I hope the discussion had something for you,

Peace, Ted

[McCulloch]

On earth we have no free will as we are either under the power of sin or the grace of GOD.

Then why did God allow evil? The usual Christian defense is that for God to have eliminated evil, He would have had to ride roughshod over free-will. Without free will, what excuse does the Christian apologist have for a god who has allowed sin and evil to have so much influence and control in his creation?

Just read the whole topic eh? With a look at post #4?

Peace, Ted

[Cewakiyelo]

Freewill and suffering both have purpose.

As a parent I want to know the love of my child. I want the expression of their love to be given freely and not because it is demanded. Sure I can say "Come here and give your dad a hug and kiss." but it is so much more gratifying when they do so out of their own desire and of their on volition. This is what our free will is about. We are free to walk away from God and never look back. But he wants our love and seeks to give us His love too. But He wants us to do so because it is in our hearts to do so.

Suffering can be viewed as a test of our integrity. Today the sun shines, I have money in my pocket, plenty of food on my table, life is sweet and everything is going my way. God is great for he blesses me greatly. It is easy to sing the praises of God when all is well. But when you are hungry, and broke, sick, loosing you home, your family, and your friends are not very friendly. When life is sucking the life out of you it may not be so easy to sing praise to God. Some will loose faith and blame God and curse his name. Just as we want to find a mate that will stick with us through the good and the bad that life has to offer so does God. Without suffering we can not show that our love and commitment is unwavering. This is what the tribulation will be about.

Suffering can also show how willing we are to step up to a task. Do we sit back and watch evil go about its destructive business or do we step up to the plate and intervene? And when we do intervene do we do so with compassion or vengeance?

[Bust Nak]

Love has an emotinal component but it also has a rational component.
Deuteronomy 6:5 & Matthew 22:
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.

How can the command to love as the feeling be fulfilled? I'll tell you how, no need to get creative. You choose to commit yourself to the care and love of GOD pledging your own loyalty and dedication by choice as best you can, trusting (by faith) that HE will in fact bring you to the fruition of this command....when you do love HIM as HE loves you.

As for love as behaviour, choices to do things, that one is easy... Love is fulfilled in choosing holiness.

But both answers rest solidly upon our free will. It is the nature of things in GOD's reality.

I see a difference between choosing to love (which I say is impossible) and choosing how to express one's love (which does have a rational component to it.)

IF 3 people introduces themselves to you as your GOD and ask you to accept HIS purpose for your creation (ie HIS will for you), promising 3 thousand good things for you life and happiness along with all the dangers and perils of leaving HIS purpose, AND

explains the 3 thousand consequences of rejecting HIS purpose for you; how you will be changed to an evil person who cannot repent and fit only to be discarded after being judged for your sin and the life you lead will be one of general suffering on earth and eternal suffering in hell,

can you say you are uninformed? You may be assured you were totally informed but you did not have the proof that what you were being told was true or a lie.

I would say I AM uninformed because I don't know who was telling the truth and who was lying.

YOU got to decide if you thought it was truth or a lie based upon which kind of life YOU thought would give you the most happiness: a life bowing to this supposed GOD in hope to get HIS supposed promises or

a life refusing to bow to a supposed false god because YOU thought you were as good as this fake god and you would have more happiness standing up for yourself against HIS threats of damantion.

You are not asking for information about the choice, you are asking for proof. If you had the proof of eternal life or eternal hell before you chose, how would you choose?

Eternal life.

How would anyone ever choose to go to hell? But with proof then they have no way to explore their own minds and hearts for which supposed life would give them the most happiness; your 'perfectly you' desires are overridden and coerced by the truth you have learned, the proof of GOD's reality.

Well I have explored my own mind and heart and decided I don't like eternal hell. It was quite simple to do. I have no problem with my desries being overridden with truth. It's the kind of freedom I don't want or need. Why would anyone want to freedom to be factually wrong?

Missed that, eh? I bet you saw it but felt it was fairly meaningless so you passed it by.

The Elements of a True Free Will Choice:...
It was in part that this ultimate definition of the freedom of our will at creation could not be applicable to our lives here one earth that led me to re-consider more closely the PCE doctrine that we had a pre-earth life where all these choices were made under these conditions of full freedom of choice.

I did miss it. Appologies.

All the spirits made in GOD's image with the ability to make true free will decisions were created at the same time before the creation of the physical universe in the spirit world (Sheol) where we had the experiences I've been talking about.

We come to be born on earth to work out our previously made, (pre-earth), decisions that self created our eternal realtionship with GOD, especially the decisions of the some elect to become evil in GOD's eyes, not to find or decide upon or create our eternal relationship with GOD here.

If this does not sit well with you, I'm sorry you missed it back then and wasted your time. I hope the discussion had something for you,

Peace, Ted

It does make sense. Your scenario is more fair then the typical Christian view (hell for simply not believing.) But what is the purpose of this life when the choice was already made?

[ttruscott]

...

It does make sense. Your scenario is more fair then the typical Christian view (hell for simply not believing.) But what is the purpose of this life when the choice was already made?

Ahhh, more details wanted; I love it!

The first free will choice separated all of creation into those who accepted HIM and received the gift of election from those who rejected HIM, coming under HIS condemnation because of the eternal nature of the changes this decison wrought in them, making them self created demons and devils.

Then HE commanded all HIS elect to come out from among these new eternal enemies (ie Babylon) before they became contaminated by their evil but it was too late.

Some already had been listening to these demons and felt that GOD was being too impetuous in HIS decision to judge them without giving them a chance to repent or to learn to love GOD and so be persuaded to accept HIM. By this rebellion to the damnation of HIS eternal enemies these elect became evil in HIS sight and outside of HIS will but not HIS love for them nor HIS grace.

To keep HIS promise of election and the gospel promise to save HIS elect from any sin they might choose to do, GOD then created the physical universe and every knee did bow and every voice did sing HIS praise (Job 38:7) at this demonstration of HIS divinity and powwer (Romans 1:20.)

By living in bodies that can feel pain, the sinful elect can experience the suffering sin causes, its enslaving an addicting qualities and the true nature of the evil of the non-elect that their evil is eternal, they are unable to repent nor ever quit hating and seeking the destruction of GOD and HIS church.

Once the last of HIS sinful elect have been redeemed by the cross, and sancitified by the Holy Spirit unto holiness, ie the willingness to accept GOD's understanding that the damnation of the non-elect is a necessary thing, the judgment will come and we will be free of this earth to live on the new earth, as per the parable of the wheat (sinful elect) and the tares (non-elect living as humans).

In short, the purpose of life is suffering. Since HIS love did not get HIS sinful elect to repent, only suffering was left.

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

...

I see a difference between choosing to love (which I say is impossible) and choosing how to express one's love (which does have a rational component to it.)

...

Are you not equating the love you feel and receive to the love of ordinary folk?

Does not the whole world love? Do not some of the most desperately evil people still have those they love, unless they are psycopaths?

Do you not think that the love GOD offers is better somehow and the love HE commands is different somehow?

One of the signs of maturity in the Spirit is that our love for GOD and the people in our lives changes to conform to HIS principles as we come out of the world.

Peace, Ted

[Bust Nak]

The first free will choice separated all of creation into those who accepted HIM and received the gift of election from those who rejected HIM, coming under HIS condemnation because of the eternal nature of the changes this decison wrought in them, making them self created demons and devils.

Ok, at that time, we weren't sinful, we weren't limited by full knowledge (just been told about the choices,) and hence we had free will to choose to believe what God was telling us would happen if we reject him. So assuming I die an atheist (i.e. It was the case that I choosed to reject God per-earth,) I am a self created demon/devil? Alternatively, had I choosen to accept God pre-earth. On earth, some time in the future, I will convert?

Then HE commanded all HIS elect to come out from among these new eternal enemies (ie Babylon) before they became contaminated by their evil but it was too late.

Some already had been listening to these demons and felt that GOD was being too impetuous in HIS decision to judge them without giving them a chance to repent or to learn to love GOD and so be persuaded to accept HIM. By this rebellion to the damnation of HIS eternal enemies these elect became evil in HIS sight and outside of HIS will but not HIS love for them nor HIS grace.

You seems to be talking about pre-earth here, Babylon is pre-earth? Who are these people who had been listening to these demons? Isn't everyone either his elect or eternal enemies at this point?

To keep HIS promise of election and the gospel promise to save HIS elect from any sin they might choose to do, GOD then created the physical universe and every knee did bow and every voice did sing HIS praise (Job 38:7) at this demonstration of HIS divinity and powwer (Romans 1:20.)

By living in bodies that can feel pain, the sinful elect can experience the suffering sin causes, its enslaving an addicting qualities and the true nature of the evil of the non-elect that their evil is eternal, they are unable to repent nor ever quit hating and seeking the destruction of GOD and HIS church.

Once the last of HIS sinful elect have been redeemed by the cross, and sancitified by the Holy Spirit unto holiness, ie the willingness to accept GOD's understanding that the damnation of the non-elect is a necessary thing, the judgment will come and we will be free of this earth to live on the new earth, as per the parable of the wheat (sinful elect) and the tares (non-elect living as humans).

I don't understand where these sinful elected came from. If they were elected because they corrected choose to accept God with their free will, how are they sinful? Were they corrupted when they come out from among the new eternal enemies in Babylon?

In short, the purpose of life is suffering. Since HIS love did not get HIS sinful elect to repent, only suffering was left.

One last question, is there a name for this particular teaching? (I am thinking something along the lines of "annihilationism" or "trinitarianism," is there a -ism describe your beliefs.

Are you not equating the love you feel and receive to the love of ordinary folk?

Does not the whole world love? Do not some of the most desperately evil people still have those they love, unless they are psycopaths?

I am guessing you are making the distinction between kinds of love? Parental love, love for friends, love for arts, romantic love etc? Yes I think there are different kinds of love, but they all share common properties. I believe all kinds of love are emotions, as such it comes natually and not as conscious choice.

Do you not think that the love GOD offers is better somehow and the love HE commands is different somehow?

I don't know. If forced to give an answer, I would guess it's the same kind, and is most like the kind between parent and child.

One of the signs of maturity in the Spirit is that our love for GOD and the people in our lives changes to conform to HIS principles as we come out of the world.

But if God's love towards us is the same kind as the love God demands, then I would also expect God to conform to some of our principle for his love for us.

[Mindlessfollower]

But if God's love towards us is the same kind as the love God demands, then I would also expect God to conform to some of our principle for his love for us.

Sorry. I just sorta bounced in out of boredom...

Bust Nak, I loved your entire rebuttal up to the above part. I think it showed intellect and understanding of not only your position but also that of the oppositions. Then we reach the above part.

Right before this you mention that most likely the love God feels towards us is like the love of a parent to a child. If that is so, then why would the parent come around to the thinking of the child? I have two children and believe me… I don’t submit to their ideas. If I did, well can you imagine what my 3 year old daughter would have Daddy wearing to work?
Tights and hair ties don’t go well with work boots and callused hands. Neither would a perfect and righteous character have a place within a carnal and sinful nature.
I think this is the only hang up. Every other point was right on.

Loved it.

[ttruscott]

...
Ok, at that time, we weren't sinful, we weren't limited by full knowledge (just been told about the choices,) and hence we had free will to choose to believe what God was telling us would happen if we reject him. So assuming I die an atheist (i.e. It was the case that I choosed to reject God per-earth,) I am a self created demon/devil? Alternatively, had I choosen to accept God pre-earth. On earth, some time in the future, I will convert?

Yes, that is the presumption.

Then HE commanded all HIS elect to come out from among these new eternal enemies (ie Babylon) before they became contaminated by their evil but it was too late.

You seems to be talking about pre-earth here, Babylon is pre-earth? Who are these people who had been listening to these demons? Isn't everyone either his elect or eternal enemies at this point?

I don't understand where these sinful elected came from. If they were elected because they corrected choose to accept God with their free will, how are they sinful? Were they corrupted when they come out from among the new eternal enemies in Babylon?

I was relating the call to leave the non-elect in our hearts to the call to come out of Babylon on earth as mentioned in Revelation 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues; as I believe many of the things that have or will happen on earth are repeats of what happend to us in the spririt realm and, since we forget them, teach us what happened.

You are correct that everyone at this point had chosen and are either elect or non-elect.

The fallen elect became sinful when they rejected GOD's call for them to leave the non-elect in their hearts and to agree with HIM that the time had come for their damnation. They were still innocent and without proof so their free will was not broken yet so it was by a true free will decision that they became sinners, evil in HIS sight, outside of HIS will, but not outside of HIS love and HIS grace as were the non-elect. Though ensalved by evil, their free will broken and addicted to sin, HE had promised to never damn them because by redeeming them and sanctifying them, HE could return them to their first choice to accept HIS will for them, an option not available to the non-elect.

One last question, is there a name for this particular teaching? (I am thinking something along the lines of "annihilationism" or "trinitarianism," is there a -ism describe your beliefs.

The belief that we had a spiritual existence pre-earth is called by various names by various people: pre-existence, pre-earth existence etc, but none of them have a full and systematic theology as developed as you see here, which we call Pre-Conception Existence Theology, or PCE.

But if God's love towards us is the same kind as the love God demands, then I would also expect God to conform to some of our principle for his love for us.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. This measures HIS love, yet we know that HE hates those who chose to take the chance on damnation, believing HIM to be a false GOD, on the judgment day. Love to hate, for your children...

We must conform to HIM, not HE to us. <shrug>

Peace, Ted