Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?

[Nickman]

Cholland said he would like to debate this point so here it is.

Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?

What prophecies does he fulfill and why?

Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?

Cholland your up.....

[ThatGirlAgain]

As for Jesus being dead. People die, and the longest anyone is known to have lived that is verified to have ever lived is 122 years 164 days... Jesus is supposed to have lived about 2000 years ago. Therefore, if he lived at all, considering the time frame, he's now dead. Can you show otherwise without resorting to religious material that can not be shown to be true?

Even if we refer to the religious material commonly dated to nearly the putative time of the life of Jesus, it clearly states that Jesus died, this point being absolutely essential to the religion being represented. It is true that this material also states that Jesus rose from the dead, so one could argue that Jesus is now alive, but not living on Earth for close to 2000 years.

Certain scriptural references are interpreted as identifying Jesus as being the Messiah. However none of the expectations of what a Messiah was to accomplish have been satisfied. Christianity pushes fulfillment of those expectations to the indefinite future when Jesus comes back again. Dying, rising from the dead, flying up to heaven and coming back again way later were never original messianic expectations.

Hello ThatGirlAgain.

Can you show ANY "original messianic expectations" beyond mere 'faith' alone from a few, from either the Old, or the New Testament about Jesus? It was obvious right from the start that 'this is NOT what everyone expected the Messiah to be!'?

Even John the Baptist expected different things than what Jesus was doing, ... here he was locked up in prison, ready to be killed and Jesus didn't even bother to come and free him, ... yet just before that, Jesus proclaimed that; there was no greater man who ever lived than John the Baptist! ??? So John thought; 'Hey, what's going on? He raise the dead, heals the sick and yet leave me rot in prison facing death from a wicked ruler? So John sent some of his followers to; "Go and ask Jesus, is He the Messiah, or should we wait for another?"

Yet the answer is all there in the complete book, the Bible, and it all fits like a puzzle, and one is;

"If they would have KNOWN, they would not have crucified the Christ!".

NOT because if they knew He was going to be a gentle Savior that somehow they would have tolerate Him and accept Him, ... but would not have killed Him so He couldn't fulfill His destiny, ... the remainder of the prophesies starting with the promise to Abraham.

Jeremiah is one example of what the Messiah was expected to do.

Jeremiah 23
23 Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture! declares the Lord. 2 Therefore this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says to the shepherds who tend my people: Because you have scattered my flock and driven them away and have not bestowed care on them, I will bestow punishment on you for the evil you have done, declares the Lord. 3 I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number. 4 I will place shepherds over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or terrified, nor will any be missing, declares the Lord.

5 The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.
6 In his days Judah will be saved
and Israel will live in safety.
This is the name by which he will be called:
The Lord Our Righteous Savior.
7 So then, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when people will no longer say, As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt, 8 but they will say, As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the descendants of Israel up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them. Then they will live in their own land.

Amos expresses it in more apocalyptic terms

Amos 9

11 In that day

I will restore Davids fallen shelter"
I will repair its broken walls
and restore its ruins"
and will rebuild it as it used to be,
12 so that they may possess the remnant of Edom
and all the nations that bear my name,
declares the Lord, who will do these things.
13 The days are coming, declares the Lord,

when the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman
and the planter by the one treading grapes.
New wine will drip from the mountains
and flow from all the hills,
14 and I will bring my people Israel back from exile.
They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,
says the Lord your God.

It is Daniel that is being referred to when Jesus is called the Son of Man and the imminent end of days is described in the Synoptic Gospels.

Daniel 7

13 In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.

The Gospels go to great lengths to identify Jesus as the Messiah via (allegedly) identifying references in the Hebrew scriptures. But the big time expectation, the institution of the messianic age, is pushed into the future.

[faith]

Cholland said he would like to debate this point so here it is.

Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?

The thread is way too long to read through.

I believe the answer is yes! Based on the belief that the Jews had, that the Messiah would bring them the truth.

What prophecies does he fulfill and why?

How would you know what the prophecies were and if they were true?

Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?

Cholland your up.....

No! is the simple answer. He cannot be shown not to fulfill the Hebrew texts.

Faiith.

[cnorman18]

Cholland said he would like to debate this point so here it is.

Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?

The thread is way too long to read through.

I believe the answer is yes! Based on the belief that the Jews had, that the Messiah would bring them the truth.

What prophecies does he fulfill and why?

How would you know what the prophecies were and if they were true?

Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?

Cholland your up.....

No! is the simple answer. He cannot be shown not to fulfill the Hebrew texts.

Faiith.

If you have 376 posts here, you should know the most basic rule of debating: you can't just make assertions of your positions. You have to show the reasoning, the references, the logic and facts behind those positions. Just saying "no" and "yes" isn't an actual argument, and it doesn't answer or refute any of the arguments that have already been posted.

Also; if you're going to jump into a debate, it's pretty much advisable to read through at least the last few pages of the thread, to get a sense of what's going on in it at present.

If your intent was just to let us know your opinion, fine; but that isn't going to have much impact.

I've recently made a similar error myself. It proved to be, shall we say, unwise.

[Goat]

Cholland said he would like to debate this point so here it is.

Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?

The thread is way too long to read through.

I believe the answer is yes! Based on the belief that the Jews had, that the Messiah would bring them the truth.

What prophecies does he fulfill and why?

How would you know what the prophecies were and if they were true?

Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?

Cholland your up.....

No! is the simple answer. He cannot be shown not to fulfill the Hebrew texts.

Faiith.

Really?? Where are the 1000 years of peace? When has all the Jews returned to Israel?

[Nickman]

The thread is way too long to read through.

I believe the answer is yes! Based on the belief that the Jews had, that the Messiah would bring them the truth.

This is not a valid reason for how or why Jesus could be the messiah. What truth did Jesus bring? How do you know it is true?

Based on the belief that the Jews had, Jesus doesn't match that belief at all. I back up this claim with all the posts I have written in this thread. He did fulfill the Bethlehem and lineage requirements, just like millions of other humans have through history. Jesus hasn't, however, fulfilled the actual actions required by the messiah, such as setting up Israel as a nation, ruling the earth, and destroying the Assyrians.

I wrote:

What prophecies does he fulfill and why?

How would you know what the prophecies were and if they were true?

By gathering them from the Hebrew text. I don't speculate that any of them are true. I do, however, take what the Jews have been waiting for and the requirements in THEIR scriptures say about the messiah. Jesus doesn't fit the description. Its like a job descrition. In order to work in a specific position, one must be able to perform all of the required tasks. Jesus didn't match the job description.

I wrote:

Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?

Cholland your up.....

No! is the simple answer. He cannot be shown not to fulfill the Hebrew texts.

Faiith.

The default answer for you is NO. The real answer is YES as I have shown and backed up with textual evidence.

[cnorman18]

To faith:

See what I mean?

[Cewakiyelo]

Cholland said he would like to debate this point so here it is.

Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?

What prophecies does he fulfill and why?

Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?

Cholland your up.....

Well, as the OT clearly describes the Messiah as a Teacher/Leader/Warrior, and the NT describes Jesus as a hellenistic Savior/Redeemer that is found nowhere in the OT descriptions, it seems clear that Jesus could not be the Messiah, and that Christians don't even consider him as such.

You have touched upon part of the equation.

John 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you

Jesus said that it is the Holy Spirit that is the Teacher. At the baptism event of Jesus the Holy Spirit descends upon Jesus and then LEADS Jesus into the wilderness. In the days of Moses the Spirit is responsible for the destruction of many enemies that stood in opposition of Moses.

Matthew 23:10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ

Jesus says the Holy Spirit will teach all things. And that One is your Teacher, the Christ... One Teacher, the Christ... Holy Spirit teaches all things... The Holy Spirit is the One Teacher, the Christ.

The Holy Spirit fulfills the Teacher/Leader/Warrior/Christ description of the Messiah

[Cewakiyelo wrote].......At the baptism event of Jesus the Holy Spirit descends upon Jesus and then LEADS Jesus into the wilderness. In the days of Moses the Spirit is responsible for the destruction of many enemies that stood in opposition of Moses.

The Spirit of our Lord and saviour "The Son of Man," to whom is ascribed, all the sins of the androgynous body of mankind=EVE who is of Adam, in which "The Spiritual Son of God="The Son of Man," is currently developing.

It is He who descends from the ends of time upon Jesus, his chosen earthly host body and then LEADS Jesus into the wilderness, where, for 40 days, He tries to tempt him into doing one act of worship to him, "The Son of Man" rather than the Father spirit, who dwells behind the veil of the flesh within the inner most sanctuary of his temporary tabernacle, the body of mankind, in which, he gains all the wisdom, knowledge, and insight, needed by the heir to the throne of Godhead, from the pain and suffering endured by the great androgynous body in which he is currently developing, which pain and suffering is caused by the sins and mistakes made by that body.

And Just as you are held accountable for the sins that you make while in the flesh, so too is "The Son of Man," The Omega, who the Alpha becomes," is held accountable for the sins of the Androgynous body in which he develops.

That is, after he has chosen his successor, to be the cornerstone to the new spiritual androgynous body, who is to inherit his throne of Godhead, to the entire creation, visible and invisible.

The Tongue ... You stated.... It is He who descends from the ends of time upon Jesus, his chosen earthly host body and then LEADS Jesus into the wilderness, where, for 40 days, He tries to tempt him into doing one act of worship to him, "The Son of Man" rather than the Father spirit,

It is unclear what you are saying? I would presume you mean that Jesus was led into the wilderness where the devil tried to tempt Jesus. It looks like maybe your fingers couldn't keep up with your thought process. Been there and done that many times.

[Nickman]

Cholland said he would like to debate this point so here it is.

Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?

What prophecies does he fulfill and why?

Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?

Cholland your up.....

Well, as the OT clearly describes the Messiah as a Teacher/Leader/Warrior, and the NT describes Jesus as a hellenistic Savior/Redeemer that is found nowhere in the OT descriptions, it seems clear that Jesus could not be the Messiah, and that Christians don't even consider him as such.

You have touched upon part of the equation.

John 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you

Jesus said that it is the Holy Spirit that is the Teacher. At the baptism event of Jesus the Holy Spirit descends upon Jesus and then LEADS Jesus into the wilderness. In the days of Moses the Spirit is responsible for the destruction of many enemies that stood in opposition of Moses.

Matthew 23:10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ

Jesus says the Holy Spirit will teach all things. And that One is your Teacher, the Christ... One Teacher, the Christ... Holy Spirit teaches all things... The Holy Spirit is the One Teacher, the Christ.

The Holy Spirit fulfills the Teacher/Leader/Warrior/Christ description of the Messiah

[Cewakiyelo wrote].......At the baptism event of Jesus the Holy Spirit descends upon Jesus and then LEADS Jesus into the wilderness. In the days of Moses the Spirit is responsible for the destruction of many enemies that stood in opposition of Moses.

The Spirit of our Lord and saviour "The Son of Man," to whom is ascribed, all the sins of the androgynous body of mankind=EVE who is of Adam, in which "The Spiritual Son of God="The Son of Man," is currently developing.

It is He who descends from the ends of time upon Jesus, his chosen earthly host body and then LEADS Jesus into the wilderness, where, for 40 days, He tries to tempt him into doing one act of worship to him, "The Son of Man" rather than the Father spirit, who dwells behind the veil of the flesh within the inner most sanctuary of his temporary tabernacle, the body of mankind, in which, he gains all the wisdom, knowledge, and insight, needed by the heir to the throne of Godhead, from the pain and suffering endured by the great androgynous body in which he is currently developing, which pain and suffering is caused by the sins and mistakes made by that body.

And Just as you are held accountable for the sins that you make while in the flesh, so too is "The Son of Man," The Omega, who the Alpha becomes," is held accountable for the sins of the Androgynous body in which he develops.

That is, after he has chosen his successor, to be the cornerstone to the new spiritual androgynous body, who is to inherit his throne of Godhead, to the entire creation, visible and invisible.

The Tongue ... You stated.... It is He who descends from the ends of time upon Jesus, his chosen earthly host body and then LEADS Jesus into the wilderness, where, for 40 days, He tries to tempt him into doing one act of worship to him, "The Son of Man" rather than the Father spirit,

It is unclear what you are saying? I would presume you mean that Jesus was led into the wilderness where the devil tried to tempt Jesus. It looks like maybe your fingers couldn't keep up with your thought process. Been there and done that many times.

I think he means Jesus' ancestral human mind.

[faroukfarouk]

[font=Verdana][/font]
Greetings to all.

Goat wrote....post278
As for Jesus being dead. People die, and the longest anyone is known to have lived that is verified to have ever lived is 122 years 164 days... Jesus is supposed to have lived about 2000 years ago. Therefore, if he lived at all, considering the time frame, he's now dead. Can you show otherwise without resorting to religious material that can not be shown to be true?

How old was Adam when he died?
How old was Noah when he died?
Its quite obvious the difficulty you are having in proving that Jesus died.

The following is a quote from the Babylonian Talmud:

On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover! -Babylonian Talmud: Sanhedrin 43a

As we can see the claim he was hanged and if he was hanged then he died.If his death cannot be proven then this book is in doubt(false).

Nickman i am working on your questions.To those that ask me questions that does not relate to this subject i ignore.Those that make false allegations against me i ignore.Those that ask questions that lead to argumental debate i ignore.The only way forward is through intellectual reasoning.

May peace and blessings be upon Jesus,his mother Mary and all mentioned Prophets.
May you all have a peaceful day.

[Nickman]

[font=Verdana][/font]
Greetings to all.

Goat wrote....post278
As for Jesus being dead. People die, and the longest anyone is known to have lived that is verified to have ever lived is 122 years 164 days... Jesus is supposed to have lived about 2000 years ago. Therefore, if he lived at all, considering the time frame, he's now dead. Can you show otherwise without resorting to religious material that can not be shown to be true?

How old was Adam when he died?
How old was Noah when he died?
Its quite obvious the difficulty you are having in proving that Jesus died.

The following is a quote from the Babylonian Talmud:

On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover! -Babylonian Talmud: Sanhedrin 43a

As we can see the claim he was hanged and if he was hanged then he died.If his death cannot be proven then this book is in doubt(false).

The references in the Talmud are thought of, by scholars, to be a forgery and later addition. Yet, if we look at the text we see that this Yeshua individual was stoned to death and hung not crucified. This person had 5 followers. If you want to use the Talmud text as reference to Jesus you will have a lot to explain. Such as, Jesus working in egypt, his mother being driven out by her husband for adultery, his true father being Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera, being stoned instead of crucified, and practicing magic and idolatry. You also have to explain why the majority of scholars do not accept these references as being about Jesus.