Is belief a choice?

[Justin108]

Christians tell me all the time that atheist deserve hell because they "chose" to reject god by not believing in him. They tell me that of I believe then I will be saved as though I can simply choose what I want to believe. How is belief a choice?

If I offered you $10 000 to believe that I was George Clooney, would you start choosing to believe I'm George Clooney?

[otseng]

You were so arrogant and pompous that strutted in declaring the whole subject a giant waste of time unless someone gave you reason to believe otherwise.

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[Filthy Tugboat]

Well, what does God's Plan of Salvation say about all this?

No idea. Is there such a thing?

I mean you don't have to take God's word for it, you are free to rebel and do what you wish.

What is God's word?

Take a simple one, thou shalt not lie. Anyone who says he has never lied ... frankly, unless you are Jesus himself, you have lied. At best, our lies save us from consequences of our own actions, but those consequences are passed onto someone else are they not? When you flub a play on a football team, and blame someone else ... you may not get extra practice time, but if the coach believes you and punishes someone else ... there was a consequence to that lie. Having violated the commandment, having seen the consequence ... oh no, right?

Any action is capable of causing undue harm, lying, just as much as honesty can do this. This is not true of all cases though. Lying, just like honesty, can be harmless, it all depends on the situation.

Well, you asked specifically about Satan in the example, and here once again Satan serves a purpose. No unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God. So how, if we are all perfect servants of God, are we introduced to the concept of Sin? By Satan. That is exactly the role he fills in Genesis. Without him, we live in perfection in the 'Garden of Eden'. With him ... we live on earth and some of us will indeed fall to his temptations, given the free will we have been granted.

I disagree, the Serpent in the Garden of Eden was not Satan, this is shown to be the case when you take a careful look at God's reaction to what the Serpent did. God punished all serpents to crawl on their belly and eat dirt for the remainder of all existence. If the Serpent was merely a guise for Satan (an angel), why would God punish all serpents for all time for the actions of an angel in disguise?

Science however, cannot answer the why this was all created. The Bible does. Everything in the universe was created so you, and many others, could be placed upon this earth and have a chance to learn, to grow, and to explore.

This isn't what the Bible proposes is the reason for creation, the Bible posits that God created everything in order for his glory to be realized and revered. It has little and less to do with other beings' enjoyment.

[stubbornone]

Well, what does God's Plan of Salvation say about all this?

No idea. Is there such a thing?

I mean you don't have to take God's word for it, you are free to rebel and do what you wish.

What is God's word?

Take a simple one, thou shalt not lie. Anyone who says he has never lied ... frankly, unless you are Jesus himself, you have lied. At best, our lies save us from consequences of our own actions, but those consequences are passed onto someone else are they not? When you flub a play on a football team, and blame someone else ... you may not get extra practice time, but if the coach believes you and punishes someone else ... there was a consequence to that lie. Having violated the commandment, having seen the consequence ... oh no, right?

Any action is capable of causing undue harm, lying, just as much as honesty can do this. This is not true of all cases though. Lying, just like honesty, can be harmless, it all depends on the situation.

Well, you asked specifically about Satan in the example, and here once again Satan serves a purpose. No unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God. So how, if we are all perfect servants of God, are we introduced to the concept of Sin? By Satan. That is exactly the role he fills in Genesis. Without him, we live in perfection in the 'Garden of Eden'. With him ... we live on earth and some of us will indeed fall to his temptations, given the free will we have been granted.

I disagree, the Serpent in the Garden of Eden was not Satan, this is shown to be the case when you take a careful look at God's reaction to what the Serpent did. God punished all serpents to crawl on their belly and eat dirt for the remainder of all existence. If the Serpent was merely a guise for Satan (an angel), why would God punish all serpents for all time for the actions of an angel in disguise?

Science however, cannot answer the why this was all created. The Bible does. Everything in the universe was created so you, and many others, could be placed upon this earth and have a chance to learn, to grow, and to explore.

This isn't what the Bible proposes is the reason for creation, the Bible posits that God created everything in order for his glory to be realized and revered. It has little and less to do with other beings' enjoyment.

http://bible.org/article/gods-plan-salvation

Well, there is a non-denominational explanation of God's Plan of Salvation. You can, with time trace the entire thing out directly with Bible quotes, but that is ... probably a bit much for a debate forum.

I will also say that you are picking and choosing various things without really making a case, merely attempting to, IMO, to disagree with what I laid out.

For example, do you believe that God would send Jesus down here, his Son, and allow him to be tortured and killed, his blood to cleanse our sins ... why exactly would he do that? God's plan of salvation is reason provided in the Bible.

Can that also be to honor and glory our father who would sacrifice and serve us so much? To offer us guidance and wisdom and the ability to choose it and reject it? Undoubtedly.

And yet the reality is not that Christians think that God gave us all this just so we can go glory him. We believe, as you see above, that God made all this for us ... all of us - even you.

In all seriousness, what do you gain by simply ignoring God's Plan of Salvation? Either intellectually or spiritually? It is, given your questions, what we believe.

BTW - I skipped it, apologies, but lying (morality). There is a difference between lying and honesty, and no doubt there are some extreme example (usually involving highly unlikely scenarios like hiding Jews from Nazis or some such), but generally speaking lying is WORSE than honesty.

The fact is, if you believe that lying and honesty are equally good and bad, you were given an opportunity down here to test that hypothesis out. See for yourself whether your analysis is right, or whether God admonition to tell the truth is the correct one.

Even if you are wrong, grace ... forgiveness exists. I assure you, you will not be the only one to make a mistake down here.

[cnorman18]

One more post:

After some consideration -- and finding that I was advising another member against making a similar mistake on another thread -- I have concluded that it was, indeed, more than a little arrogant and uncivil of me to barge into this thread and declare the whole topic a waste of time. I am not interested in this topic, but that does not give me the right to dump on those who are. I confess that I was wrong, and was being exactly the kind of snotty, high-handed know-it-all that I myself find thoroughly detestable in threads on topics in which I AM interested.

Apologies, and sincere ones, to all. I won't let it happen again.

[Cewakiyelo]

How is belief not a choice? If you have an opinion, which you obviously have many, you believe. You choose your opinions your opinions don't choose you.

I have a hypothesis: You wouldn't be able choose to believe false facts. This experiment would falsify this hypothesis.

1) Choose to believe something you know to be false, for example, the belief that charging head first into a brick wall will do you no harm. 2) Then charge head first into a brick wall at full speed.

Report back on how you do.

Expected result: you wouldn't go as far as step 2.

I will have to get back to you later on this. I am busy rebuilding a wall at the moment.

[Cewakiyelo]

One more post:

After some consideration -- and finding that I was advising another member against making a similar mistake on another thread -- I have concluded that it was, indeed, more than a little arrogant and uncivil of me to barge into this thread and declare the whole topic a waste of time. I am not interested in this topic, but that does not give me the right to dump on those who are. I confess that I was wrong, and was being exactly the kind of snotty, high-handed know-it-all that I myself find thoroughly detestable in threads on topics in which I AM interested.

Apologies, and sincere ones, to all. I won't let it happen again.

Hats off to you for being able to take criticism, especially harshly given, and still acknowledging your mistakes and offer apologies. You are on the road to great things brother.

.

[Bust Nak]

As I mentioned, once I have proof of something (I've banged my head on a wall and know the feeling) I can't choose to change my mind about it. Proof coerces belief.

Yes, we chatted about this elsewhere too. It's pretty clear to be belief is not a choice given sufficient evidence. But I am also suggesting that the other side of the coin, non-belief is not a choice either given insufficient evidence. The example for the OP re:George Clooney would show that one cannot choose to believe with or without proof, belief is not under ones conscious control.

[Clownboat]

Well, there is a non-denominational explanation of God's Plan of Salvation. You can, with time trace the entire thing out directly with Bible quotes, but that is ... probably a bit much for a debate forum.

There are 38,000 denominations of Christianity, this "God's Plan of Salvation" varies and the odds are against you that your explanation is right.

I will also say that you are picking and choosing various things without really making a case, merely attempting to, IMO, to disagree with what I laid out.

He is free to disagree with you I believe.

For example, do you believe that God would send Jesus down here, his Son, and allow him to be tortured and killed, his blood to cleanse our sins ... why exactly would he do that? God's plan of salvation is reason provided in the Bible.

No. I do not believe that an all powerful god would do this. I once did, but that was only through indoctrination and threats of hell.

Can that also be to honor and glory our father who would sacrifice and serve us so much? To offer us guidance and wisdom and the ability to choose it and reject it? Undoubtedly.

First of all, being tortured for a day and being dead for a couple more in order to save all of mankind, then you get to spend eternity at the right hand of god is not much of a sacrifice. Would you not do the same in order to save all of mankind?
Secondly, why would god offer us wisdom? Ecc 1:18 - For in much wisdom is much grief, and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

And yet the reality is not that Christians think that God gave us all this just so we can go glory him. We believe, as you see above, that God made all this for us ... all of us - even you.

I realize you believe this. Please realize that IMO it is not a realistic explanation.

In all seriousness, what do you gain by simply ignoring God's Plan of Salvation? Either intellectually or spiritually? It is, given your questions, what we believe.

Please prove this "god's plan of salvation" before you go on to accusing us of ignoring it.
Also, please stop ignoring unicorns.

Even if you are wrong, grace ... forgiveness exists. I assure you, you will not be the only one to make a mistake down here.

Thanks for your assurance. Any reason I should trust you over other religious beliefs and do you have anyway to show that you are speaking truth?

[Filthy Tugboat]

Well, what does God's Plan of Salvation say about all this?

No idea. Is there such a thing?

I mean you don't have to take God's word for it, you are free to rebel and do what you wish.

What is God's word?

Take a simple one, thou shalt not lie. Anyone who says he has never lied ... frankly, unless you are Jesus himself, you have lied. At best, our lies save us from consequences of our own actions, but those consequences are passed onto someone else are they not? When you flub a play on a football team, and blame someone else ... you may not get extra practice time, but if the coach believes you and punishes someone else ... there was a consequence to that lie. Having violated the commandment, having seen the consequence ... oh no, right?

Any action is capable of causing undue harm, lying, just as much as honesty can do this. This is not true of all cases though. Lying, just like honesty, can be harmless, it all depends on the situation.

Well, you asked specifically about Satan in the example, and here once again Satan serves a purpose. No unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God. So how, if we are all perfect servants of God, are we introduced to the concept of Sin? By Satan. That is exactly the role he fills in Genesis. Without him, we live in perfection in the 'Garden of Eden'. With him ... we live on earth and some of us will indeed fall to his temptations, given the free will we have been granted.

I disagree, the Serpent in the Garden of Eden was not Satan, this is shown to be the case when you take a careful look at God's reaction to what the Serpent did. God punished all serpents to crawl on their belly and eat dirt for the remainder of all existence. If the Serpent was merely a guise for Satan (an angel), why would God punish all serpents for all time for the actions of an angel in disguise?

Science however, cannot answer the why this was all created. The Bible does. Everything in the universe was created so you, and many others, could be placed upon this earth and have a chance to learn, to grow, and to explore.

This isn't what the Bible proposes is the reason for creation, the Bible posits that God created everything in order for his glory to be realized and revered. It has little and less to do with other beings' enjoyment.

http://bible.org/article/gods-plan-salvation

Well, there is a non-denominational explanation of God's Plan of Salvation. You can, with time trace the entire thing out directly with Bible quotes, but that is ... probably a bit much for a debate forum.

There are many different idea's for, "God's plan of salvation," not all of them Christian, why should I take this one more seriously than any or all of the others?

I will also say that you are picking and choosing various things without really making a case, merely attempting to, IMO, to disagree with what I laid out.

If I were to convey all of my beliefs regarding the bible and interpretations of it's text, it would take a long time to write, read and respond to. Best to keep it brief especially given most of what I would say would be off topic for this thread.

For example, do you believe that God would send Jesus down here, his Son, and allow him to be tortured and killed, his blood to cleanse our sins ... why exactly would he do that? God's plan of salvation is reason provided in the Bible.

I find this dubious at best, the meaning of "son" in the relationship between Jesus and God escapes me entirely, especially if one were to suggest that the Trinity is an actual thing. It's all good and well to propose that a man was tortured and killed and that has meaning. But when you say that this man was "God in the flesh" suddenly, saying this man was killed and tortured no longer carries the same meaning. I don't know what meaning it carries because I don't know what God is or how torturing and killing God effects Him (It). It seems that the common belief is that these things (killing especially) does not effect God in the same way that it effects us (humans).

And yet the reality is not that Christians think that God gave us all this just so we can go glory him. We believe, as you see above, that God made all this for us ... all of us - even you.

You may believe that but that is beside the point, the Bible makes it clear that the reason for all of his actions is to spread his own glory and for that glory to be known and recognized.

Ex 9 : 14-16 For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth. For now I will stretch out my hand, that I may smite thee and thy people with pestilence; and thou shalt be cut off from the earth. And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

Is 48:8-11 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb. For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off. Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction. For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

In all seriousness, what do you gain by simply ignoring God's Plan of Salvation? Either intellectually or spiritually? It is, given your questions, what we believe.

Am I ignoring God's plan to Salvation? What is God's plan to Salvation? Do you have any means to verify one of these proposed plans over another? There are quite literally thousands of different ideas on the issue.

BTW - I skipped it, apologies, but lying (morality). There is a difference between lying and honesty, and no doubt there are some extreme example (usually involving highly unlikely scenarios like hiding Jews from Nazis or some such), but generally speaking lying is WORSE than honesty.

I assure you, the above actually happened, look up Schindler's List. It was much more than just a film. "Generally speaking". Re-asserting your original claim is not debating, show why one is better than another and that it isn't entirely circumstantial.

The fact is, if you believe that lying and honesty are equally good and bad, you were given an opportunity down here to test that hypothesis out. See for yourself whether your analysis is right, or whether God admonition to tell the truth is the correct one.

You misunderstand my position. I advocate that it is circumstantial and that neither is inherently better than the other, lying is sometimes the right thing to do, same goes with honesty.

[stubbornone]

There are 38,000 denominations of Christianity, this "God's Plan of Salvation" varies and the odds are against you that your explanation is right.

And yet, we all share the same Bible (for the most part), and we all have some version of God's Plan of Salvation. Your comment is simple a denial for denial's sake IMHO.

No. I do not believe that an all powerful god would do this. I once did, but that was only through indoctrination and threats of hell.

Well, you are free to reject the Biblical version and explanation of WHY Jesus was sent. Yet you offer no alternative theory, and yours would be based on?

Therein lies the issue brother.

You can agree or disagree to your heart's content, but you cannot tell simply disagree with a group of Christians for accepting a valid Biblical interpretation. That makes little sense.

First of all, being tortured for a day and being dead for a couple more in order to save all of mankind, then you get to spend eternity at the right hand of god is not much of a sacrifice. Would you not do the same in order to save all of mankind?
Secondly, why would god offer us wisdom? Ecc 1:18 - For in much wisdom is much grief, and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

Have you ever been tortured to death? Have you spent any time in Hell unjustly? Have you been resurrected?

And we complain when we get speeding tickets unjustly.

Besides, what Jesus did fulfills the OT law. Before Jesus, before grace, men were cleansed of their sin by sacrificing animals (which were themselves an 'economic' admission of the cost of sin). It was that blood that cleansed the sin and allowed a fresh start. What blood would cleanse ALL of man kind's sin? Only divine blood of the Father can achieve that. Ergo ... and yet, though our sin demanded death and entrapment of Jesus in Hell, through power of the Father, through Jesus Christ, he overcame that price and was resurrected and rejoined the Father.

Your alternative in dealing with sin is?

I realize you believe this. Please realize that IMO it is not a realistic explanation.

Once again, anyone is free to disagree. Yet what is your alternative theory that is compelling enough to drive it away? What purpose was this universe made for? Science cannot help you there brother, indeed it rarely can in the realm of purpose.

Please prove this "god's plan of salvation" before you go on to accusing us of ignoring it.
Also, please stop ignoring unicorns.

I believe I did. I provided a non-denominational source based on direct quotes from the Bible.

And who said anything about unicorns?

Thanks for your assurance. Any reason I should trust you over other religious beliefs and do you have anyway to show that you are speaking truth?

Well, you could do what I did and simply ask God. I did. Remember we are all different. We all have things we need to learn, are at various aspects of our lives. We all think differently, we all learn differently, we all love differently. Why does it shock you that God would have 'more than one church'?

Besides, there is a simple question in reverse, why not?