Should people "shack-up" before marriage?

Nickman · Post by **Nickman** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:48 am

I personally think that when two adults shack-up prior to marriage, they have a better chance of staying married and avoid divorce. This I have concluded from my own logic and experience. If we get to know a person prior to marriage on that level we are able to make a better decision about whether or not we can be married to that person. If we don't shack-up we won't be able to see how that person truly is in that setting. Christians tend to be against shacking-up which I feel has led to the statistics showing that they are more susceptible to divorce than atheists who do tend to shack-up.

What do you say? Should we shack up? Is it beneficial? If not why not?

P.S. Just because "god said so" is not a good answer. Please provide why it is harmful or wrong and the potential problem it could cause.

Moses Yoder · Post by **Moses Yoder** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:32 am

PREEST wrote: See, and now you try to continue to slander people who don't share your views. I don't have a problem with your question, just the way in which you think it should be asked.

Get this, it's not 'for a while' we live toegther period. We are together forever, we are one. There is no 'for a while', it is till death.

So I would ask it like this;

A) Does it show more commitment to move in together because you love each other and think it is the next step in you relationship?

or

B) Does it show more commitment to get married first because god says that's what we have to do, instead of making the decision for ourselves?

I want you to understand, I'm not against marriage, and my girl friend and I will be getting married next year. Moving in is just the necessary step before we marry. We're not doing this for 'a while' as you put it.

If the logical progression is to live together to see if you are compatible, what is the logical progression if you come to the point where you do not believe you are compatible? If living together is commitment, why not just get married before moving in together? Did you have a ceremony with witnesses promising to only love each other before you moved in together? If so, then you are committed.

Your ignorance of Christianity is showing when you say we do things only because God tells us to. One of the things I have learned is that God instructs us to live a certain way for our own good and the good of those people we love.

Nickman · Post by **Nickman** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:39 am

Moses Yoder wrote:
Nickman wrote: I remember a quote (kind of) that basically said that atheists are far better at marriage and the statistics show because we are not sleeping with someone else while married to our spouses. The Christians are sleeping with Jesus at the same time they are married to their spouse. What Jesus says always comes first before your husband/wife. Take Jesus out of from between you and your spouse and you will be able to have a more fulfilling relationship.

Jesus even says that if your mother, father, husband, wife or any family member keeps you from obeying him that you need to cut them off.

I think that the spouse should come first.
Please post evidence that atheists are able to have more fulfilling relationships.

I am paraphrasing Moses. Im not endorsing that they do. I will try to find the exact quote and who it is from and give you that information so you can send them a letter or email asking for evidence.

I paraphrased to make a point about Jesus being in the middle of the couple and who is obeyed first before the spouse. Not always but in some relationships.

Moses Yoder · Post by **Moses Yoder** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:44 am

Clownboat wrote:
Please post evidence that my thoughts are ignorant.
The only one that comes to mind is getting relationship advise from someone raised Amish seems like an odd place to start.

Nothing against the Amish, it's just that their courting and interaction with the opposite sex during adolescence would not be considered the norm when compared to the rest of society.

I don't see where living together before marriage would have anything to do with a commitment level and must admit saying so does "sound" ignorant.

Well, I have to admit you got me there. When I look at Amish relationships I too have to say they leave a lot to be desired. One of the many reasons I am not Amish today. I wonder if there are statistics for the divorce rate amongst the Amish? According to this page http://www.conservapedia.com/Divorce#Religion it is .3% amongst the Mennonites and Amish. Wouldn't that mean they know a lot about how to have a successful marriage?

Nickman · Post by **Nickman** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:31 am

Moses Yoder wrote:
The Mosaic law, including the ten commandments, was given to the descendants of Abraham for their own good. If they lived by the law they would have long, happy, productive lives. If not, then not.

Im gonna pull a "Moses Yoder" here. Please provide evidence that living by the Mosaic Law, including the Ten Commandments, made people happy. I will accept statements from Israelites from the bronze age and a tape recording of God's own voice stating this to be so. If you cannot provide this evidence retract your statement.

On a serious note, were the women who were raped and had to marry their rapist happy? What about the slaves god allowed to be taken from foreign countries? Oh, and what about the 12 year old daughters sold by their fathers for their virginity?

I have found a cure for AIDS and all other sexually transmitted diseases. It is as follows; wait to have sex until after marriage, then only have sex with the spouse you married.

Where did AIDS come from Moses? How?

Page 2, a sexual relationship brings an emotional attachment. When you say "shack up" you are implying an ongoing sexual relationship. So here are two people emotionally attached for life. In general the woman is more so than the man, but not always. So the man come home one day and says "Sorry honey, you just don't fit the bill, see ya", and kicks her out the door of his house. What are the drawbacks of cohabitation? Are there any? If not, why do we have marriage? If man evolved, why did marriage evolve along with him? If God prefers marriage, why does He?

Anything can happen in any relationship regardless of marriage or not. A husband can come home one day and say I want a divorce. I don't think you have a point here. This has more to do with true love vs lack of love.

Page 3, there are many things about my wife I don't like. She has to have her feet covered with a sheet to sleep and I like mine uncovered. She is a terrible housewife so far as cleaning the house. She is very strong willed, which is not what I was raised with although I have come to admire it. For instance many times I will suggest she do things my way and she will flat refuse to and does them her way (she is doing one of these things this morning while I am at the office, probably spending several thousand dollars without even the benefit of my input because she refused to wait until later this afternoon.) I could write a very long list. If I had moved in with her I probably would have moved back out in short order. On the other hand, I love her. Since I am committed to our relationship and love her, I actually find these little irritations endearing and find them easy to ignore and am perfectly happy where I am at. If I had shacked up with her before hand I would have never gotten to know who she truly was; I would never have looked past the minor irritations.

You prove my point Moses. You didn't learn everything about your wife until you got married and "shacked up". You didn't know about those irritating things. The fact that you were able to look past them and evn admire them shows what can happen and the reason why shacking up serves a great purpose. You cannot say you wouldn't have stayed with her. The fact that you were able to deal with those irritations means you realized you loved her even more and you were committed. This can be accomplished and from your own words was accomplished by you and her shacking up under one roof. Before you two were under one roof you didn't know these things, the shacking up part is what culminated the feelings you had for her previously and confirmed your commitment.

Nickman · Post by **Nickman** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:39 am

I will add, it is not the "I do" that culminates the marriage or the sex. When two people get married without shacking up they are nervous and going into a new unknown world. Women and men get cold feet wondering if they are making the right decision. Those who shacked up prior already know whats on the other side of marriage because they are already living it. They know whether or not they can live with that person because they have already experienced it. Their marriage is based on evidence that they already have from experience. Those who don't shack up don't have this information and are going in blindly. They have less information about what they are getting into than those who do shack up.

Moses Yoder · Post by **Moses Yoder** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:02 pm

Nickman wrote:
Moses Yoder wrote:
The Mosaic law, including the ten commandments, was given to the descendants of Abraham for their own good. If they lived by the law they would have long, happy, productive lives. If not, then not.
Im gonna pull a "Moses Yoder" here. Please provide evidence that living by the Mosaic Law, including the Ten Commandments, made people happy. I will accept statements from Israelites from the bronze age and a tape recording of God's own voice stating this to be so. If you cannot provide this evidence retract your statement.

On a serious note, were the women who were raped and had to marry their rapist happy? What about the slaves god allowed to be taken from foreign countries? Oh, and what about the 12 year old daughters sold by their fathers for their virginity?

There is an article here written by someone who agrees with me. Note they are probably not Christian. http://goodvibeblog.com/clean-living-su ... nifesting/

I challenge you to start a thread in the one-on-one debate forum where I will debate you on whether the people who wrote the Bible endorsed rape, which will be your view, and I will present the view that they did not endorse rape. I cannot have time limits set on it because occasionally I actually have to work. I would like to limit the length to your initial post presenting your argument then 3 posts each.

Moses Yoder · Post by **Moses Yoder** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:09 pm

Nickman wrote: You prove my point Moses. You didn't learn everything about your wife until you got married and "shacked up". You didn't know about those irritating things. The fact that you were able to look past them and evn admire them shows what can happen and the reason why shacking up serves a great purpose. You cannot say you wouldn't have stayed with her. The fact that you were able to deal with those irritations means you realized you loved her even more and you were committed. This can be accomplished and from your own words was accomplished by you and her shacking up under one roof. Before you two were under one roof you didn't know these things, the shacking up part is what culminated the feelings you had for her previously and confirmed your commitment.

How can you say I didn't learn anything about my wife before I lived with her? I knew the first time we met that she had blonde hair and very small breasts, ideal for horse back riding. If I decided I didn't like a woman with small breasts, I could have decided never to ask her out again. So on the first date, and probably every date after that, I learned something about my wife. If I am going to date her for two years and still not know whether we are compatible I am some sort of first class idiot.

Nickman · Post by **Nickman** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:12 pm

Moses Yoder wrote:
Nickman wrote:
Moses Yoder wrote:
The Mosaic law, including the ten commandments, was given to the descendants of Abraham for their own good. If they lived by the law they would have long, happy, productive lives. If not, then not.
Im gonna pull a "Moses Yoder" here. Please provide evidence that living by the Mosaic Law, including the Ten Commandments, made people happy. I will accept statements from Israelites from the bronze age and a tape recording of God's own voice stating this to be so. If you cannot provide this evidence retract your statement.

On a serious note, were the women who were raped and had to marry their rapist happy? What about the slaves god allowed to be taken from foreign countries? Oh, and what about the 12 year old daughters sold by their fathers for their virginity?

There is an article here written by someone who agrees with me. Note they are probably not Christian. http://goodvibeblog.com/clean-living-su ... nifesting/

I challenge you to start a thread in the one-on-one debate forum where I will debate you on whether the people who wrote the Bible endorsed rape, which will be your view, and I will present the view that they did not endorse rape. I cannot have time limits set on it because occasionally I actually have to work. I would like to limit the length to your initial post presenting your argument then 3 posts each.

I didn't say the people did. I said that the god does. The only people that endorse rape would be the rapists. The deity of the bible doesn't publicly condemn it, but instead lets the rapist off the hook with a payment of 30 shekels to the father and rewards the rapist with the woman he raped as his wife. This was a commandment from the deity himself when he gave his uninterrupted discourse of 613 commandments. This thread is about shacking up so lets keep it that way. There is already a thread dedicated to this. Now if you want to debate one-on-one about whether this deity, sanctioned, endorsed (by not condemning it) prescribed, and took it lightly, while giving the death penalty for trivial matters we can.

Nickman · Post by **Nickman** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:15 pm

Moses Yoder wrote:
Nickman wrote: You prove my point Moses. You didn't learn everything about your wife until you got married and "shacked up". You didn't know about those irritating things. The fact that you were able to look past them and evn admire them shows what can happen and the reason why shacking up serves a great purpose. You cannot say you wouldn't have stayed with her. The fact that you were able to deal with those irritations means you realized you loved her even more and you were committed. This can be accomplished and from your own words was accomplished by you and her shacking up under one roof. Before you two were under one roof you didn't know these things, the shacking up part is what culminated the feelings you had for her previously and confirmed your commitment.
How can you say I didn't learn anything about my wife before I lived with her? I knew the first time we met that she had blonde hair and very small breasts, ideal for horse back riding. If I decided I didn't like a woman with small breasts, I could have decided never to ask her out again. So on the first date, and probably every date after that, I learned something about my wife. If I am going to date her for two years and still not know whether we are compatible I am some sort of first class idiot.

Anyone can see how you replaced the word everything with anything. I said you didn't know everything and didn't know as much as you did when you shacked up before you shacked up. You knew somethings but had know idea of how you two would be under the same roof everyday, all the time. Theres a difference.

Nickman · Post by **Nickman** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:23 pm

Moses Yoder wrote:
Nickman wrote:
Moses Yoder wrote:
The Mosaic law, including the ten commandments, was given to the descendants of Abraham for their own good. If they lived by the law they would have long, happy, productive lives. If not, then not.
Im gonna pull a "Moses Yoder" here. Please provide evidence that living by the Mosaic Law, including the Ten Commandments, made people happy. I will accept statements from Israelites from the bronze age and a tape recording of God's own voice stating this to be so. If you cannot provide this evidence retract your statement.

On a serious note, were the women who were raped and had to marry their rapist happy? What about the slaves god allowed to be taken from foreign countries? Oh, and what about the 12 year old daughters sold by their fathers for their virginity?

There is an article here written by someone who agrees with me. Note they are probably not Christian. http://goodvibeblog.com/clean-living-su ... nifesting/

I challenge you to start a thread in the one-on-one debate forum where I will debate you on whether the people who wrote the Bible endorsed rape, which will be your view, and I will present the view that they did not endorse rape. I cannot have time limits set on it because occasionally I actually have to work. I would like to limit the length to your initial post presenting your argument then 3 posts each.

When I have a little more time, probably sunday night, I will address your article with a full rebuttal. So, im not ignoring it. I will post it in a separate thread in order to keep this one on track with the OP.