Can the Bible's divine authorship be demonstrated by logic?

[McCulloch]

I believe that the following facets of my faith can be demonstrated by logical deduction

2. The Bible is God's Word*

Can the Bible's divine authorship be demonstrated by logical deduction?

[jimvansage]

Can I directly prove that Jesus was born of a virgin or that the authors of the Bible are who they claim to be (though guided by the Holy Spirit of God)? Not directly per se.

Look at archaeology. Archaeologists discovered that the walls of Jericho fell outward. This supports the idea that the walls fell down miraculously by the power of God, though it is a supporting evidence, it is not proof positive.
There was no evidence of the Hittite empire as recorded in the Bible for centuries, yet in the past century archaeologists have begun to uncover the remains of that empire.
It was very recently that archaeological evidence was found that there was a King David, though we had evidence of Solomon for some time now.

If there were still only evidence of Solomon but not of David, then one might object that I can prove Solomon but not David, therefore the Bible is in error. This is a faulty conclusion, because proving some historical accounts to be true in reality has no sway one way or the other on the other accounts.
The lack of evidence only evidences lack of evidence - whether such evidence will be found in the future or if it has been lost to history does not matter. The question doesn't come down to how reliable is the Bible percentage wise, or how much of it has been backed up by evidence. (I'm not claiming that every single thing claimed in the Bible can be backed up by evidence-virgin birth or authorship).

But there are things we can know that make the Bible stand out as a document which claims to be the Word of God.

1. there is nothing in the Bible that contradicts our proper scientific understanding of the natural world
2. there are no contradictions
3. the message is unified despite being written over a period of 1500 years from (allegedly, I'll admit) 40 different authors from different cultural backgrounds
4. the one quality that stands out: predictive prophecy

1. The Old Testament was complete before 132 B.C.
2. Jesus of Nazareth lived and died around A.D. 30
3. The major world powers after Babylon were the Medo-Persian empire, the Macedonian empire, and the Roman empire (the empire under which Jesus lived, the church was established, and Christianity began).

That and if Matthew 24 was written before AD 70, it foretells the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans (who you consider "scholars", educated men who reject the Bible, might attest this point, so I'm not pushing it. The 300+ OT prophecies are far more convincing - and if they could not be predicted with precision without information provided by God, then God inspired it, and the document is trustworthy)

[Danmark]

"Can you show that is true?? Please, show me some tangible evidence (not testimony), that 'the word of God is perfect truth"

If credible testimony supported by history is not evidence, then what is?
How is a path in the Red Sea and a split rock not evidence of the testimony of Exodus?

What path?

Are you serious about the split rock being evidence of anything besides the existence of a split rock and the mundane process of rocks being split by the thaw/freeze cycle?

First there is a rock. Then water gets into cracks in the rock and the water expands during the freeze cycle, making the crack bigger.
Then when the crack fill up with water in the thaw period, allowing more water to go deeper into the rock which will eventually make the rock split apart
when it freezes again.

That is why you see split rocks everywhere.

[Danmark]

But there are things we can know that make the Bible stand out as a document which claims to be the Word of God.

1. there is nothing in the Bible that contradicts our proper scientific understanding of the natural world
2. there are no contradictions

Feeling lazy, so let's just go with the first two for now.
What you are implying, but i'm guessing you will not agree to , is that if it is shown there ARE things in the Bible that contradict 'our proper scientific understanding of the natural world' then we know the Bible is NOT the Word of God.

1. The bible teaches a flat earth** and that the sun orbits the earth.
"The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. "
Ecclesiastes 1:5)

2.There are many contradictions. Just in the account of the morning of the 'resurrection'*
MATT 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

MARK 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

JOHN 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

The Order of Creation

Genesis 1:11-12 and 1:26-27 Trees came before Adam.
Genesis 2:4-9 Trees came after Adam.

Genesis 1:20-21 and 26-27 Birds were created before Adam.
Genesis 2:7 and 2:19 Birds were created after Adam.

Genesis 1:24-27 Animals were created before Adam.
Genesis 2:7 and 2:19 Animals were created after Adam.

Genesis 1:26-27 Adam and Eve were created at the same time.
Genesis 2:7 and 2:21-22 Adam was created first, woman sometime later.



___________________
**Isaiah 11:12
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)

Revelation 7:1
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)

Job 38:13
13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)

Jeremiah 16:19
19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV)

Daniel 4:11
11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)

Matthew 4:8
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

Astronomical bodies are spherical, and you cannot see the entire exterior surface from any place. The kingdoms of Egypt, China, Greece, Crete, sections of Asia Minor, India, Maya (in Mexico), Carthage (North Africa), Rome (Italy), Korea, and other settlements from these kingdoms of the world were widely distributed.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/earth_flat.htm

*Who Were the First Visitors to Jesus’ Tomb?

Matthew 28:1: After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
Mary Magdalene and the other Mary

Mark 16:1: When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body.
The two Marys, plus a third person, Salome

Luke 24:10: When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others. It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to the apostles.
The two Marys, Joanna, and "the others."

John 20:1: Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.
Only Mary Magdalene

Was the Stone Rolled Away?

Matthew 28:1-2: After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb. There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it.
The stone was in place when they arrived, and the angel rolled it back.

Mark 16:4: But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away. As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed.
The stone had already been rolled away upon their arrival, noted also in Luke 24:2 and John 20:1.


Who Did the Visitors Tell of Jesus’ Empty Tomb?

Matthew 28:8: So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me."
The visitors were overjoyed, and they ran to tell the disciples

Mark 16:8: Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.
They were afraid, and told no one.

Luke 24:9: When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others.
They told the eleven and others.

John 20:10: Then the disciples went back to their homes, but Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus’ body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.
Mary informed Simon and the other disciple about the empty tomb, then she remained at the tomb crying.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/page/ ... radictions

[Goat]

Can I directly prove that Jesus was born of a virgin or that the authors of the Bible are who they claim to be (though guided by the Holy Spirit of God)? Not directly per se.

Look at archaeology. Archaeologists discovered that the walls of Jericho fell outward. This supports the idea that the walls fell down miraculously by the power of God, though it is a supporting evidence, it is not proof positive.
There was no evidence of the Hittite empire as recorded in the Bible for centuries, yet in the past century archaeologists have begun to uncover the remains of that empire.
It was very recently that archaeological evidence was found that there was a King David, though we had evidence of Solomon for some time now.

If there were still only evidence of Solomon but not of David, then one might object that I can prove Solomon but not David, therefore the Bible is in error. This is a faulty conclusion, because proving some historical accounts to be true in reality has no sway one way or the other on the other accounts.
The lack of evidence only evidences lack of evidence - whether such evidence will be found in the future or if it has been lost to history does not matter. The question doesn't come down to how reliable is the Bible percentage wise, or how much of it has been backed up by evidence. (I'm not claiming that every single thing claimed in the Bible can be backed up by evidence-virgin birth or authorship).

But there are things we can know that make the Bible stand out as a document which claims to be the Word of God.

1. there is nothing in the Bible that contradicts our proper scientific understanding of the natural world
2. there are no contradictions
3. the message is unified despite being written over a period of 1500 years from (allegedly, I'll admit) 40 different authors from different cultural backgrounds
4. the one quality that stands out: predictive prophecy

1. The Old Testament was complete before 132 B.C.
2. Jesus of Nazareth lived and died around A.D. 30
3. The major world powers after Babylon were the Medo-Persian empire, the Macedonian empire, and the Roman empire (the empire under which Jesus lived, the church was established, and Christianity began).

That and if Matthew 24 was written before AD 70, it foretells the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans (who you consider "scholars", educated men who reject the Bible, might attest this point, so I'm not pushing it. The 300+ OT prophecies are far more convincing - and if they could not be predicted with precision without information provided by God, then God inspired it, and the document is trustworthy)

Well, there is ONE big issue with that..

The Jewish scriptures never mentioned Jesus. None of the 'prophecies' that are supposed to be about Jesus as claimed by the Christians are about Jesus... they are out of context, misquoted,and/or mistranslated, or reading into vague references. If you look at the "300+ OT prophecies', they were retrofitted into a new concept. .. and often were not prophecies to begin with, but were 'written to' after the fact.

Being the fact that the Jewish scriptures have been so misrepresented , that would be a strong indication that, well, the NT is not divine authorship. The fact that there are indications that multiple people wrote even genesis, and it was redacted is a good inidcation that the Jewish scriptures isn't divine.

[jimvansage]

"The fact that there are indications that multiple people wrote even genesis, and it was redacted is a good inidcation that the Jewish scriptures isn't divine"

What indications/evidence exist?

"if it is shown there ARE things in the Bible that contradict 'our proper scientific understanding of the natural world' then we know the Bible is NOT the Word of God"

actually, yes, I will agree to that. just don't assume your understanding of science is proper.

"Sunrise, Sunset..."
Be reasonable. You don't hear a song on the radio or read a book that refers to the dawn as a sunrise or dusk as a sunset and feel the need to correct the lyricist/author. You don't say an history book is innaccurate because it uses these terms.
From a human perspective, it appears as though the sun is rising and setting, and God used the language people used and understood (if He did inspire the Bible of course).

What about the passages you cited contradict the fact that the Gospels indicate that Jesus was seen just before dawn on the first day of the week?
By Jewish reckoning, the first day of the week began at dusk on Saturday (6:00 pm)
after the sabbath (Saturday) was passed
when it was dark (before daylight)
Jesus was witnessed.

Genesis at it's inception is written in a Jewish style where Toledoths are related.
Chapter 1 (give or take) is an overview of all Creation, including man.
Then in chapter 2 the story is retold, with special emphasis on man's creation and place in the universe.
The other toledoths are marked by individuals and their particular genealogies.
J. Burton Coffman for one divides his commentary on Genesis into the Toledoths.

I'm not a Hebrew scholar, but I do recall that in Revelation when the phrase "four corners of the earth" is used, the word can literally mean "quarters", or "quadrants" as on a sphere
"Ends" could just mean the uttermost reaches
I know for a fact that the word "world" typically means the known world and is limited to the Roman Empire.
You're assuming he showed him all the kingdoms from that one mountain.
1. "the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain"
2. "and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them"
It doesn't say they didn't leave the mountain
Maybe he showed him other kingdoms in some sort of vision
because when the devil was done, Jesus was back in the wilderness
No contradiction is demanded here.

So Mary Magdalene, Mary mother of James, Joanna, and Salome and "others" were there - some authors just didn't mention all of them
It seems that all but Mary Magdalene left the empty tomb when she saw Jesus.
One possibility of harmonizing all accounts - therefore not a contradiction.

I'll have to dig a little deeper for the stone rolling/who did they tell, but I can tell you're putting the references in an arbitrary order and not allowing for the possibility that some of the women did one thing and some did another - but I'll have to look into the contexts to determine who we're referring to in each case.

[Danmark]

"The fact that there are indications that multiple people wrote even genesis, and it was redacted is a good inidcation that the Jewish scriptures isn't divine"

What indications/evidence exist?

"if it is shown there ARE things in the Bible that contradict 'our proper scientific understanding of the natural world' then we know the Bible is NOT the Word of God"

actually, yes, I will agree to that. just don't assume your understanding of science is proper.

"Sunrise, Sunset..."
Be reasonable. You don't hear a song on the radio or read a book that refers to the dawn as a sunrise or dusk as a sunset and feel the need to correct the lyricist/author. You don't say an history book is innaccurate because it uses these terms.
From a human perspective, it appears as though the sun is rising and setting, and God used the language people used and understood (if He did inspire the Bible of course).

What about the passages you cited contradict the fact that the Gospels indicate that Jesus was seen just before dawn on the first day of the week?
By Jewish reckoning, the first day of the week began at dusk on Saturday (6:00 pm)
after the sabbath (Saturday) was passed
when it was dark (before daylight)
Jesus was witnessed.

Genesis at it's inception is written in a Jewish style where Toledoths are related.
Chapter 1 (give or take) is an overview of all Creation, including man.
Then in chapter 2 the story is retold, with special emphasis on man's creation and place in the universe.
The other toledoths are marked by individuals and their particular genealogies.
J. Burton Coffman for one divides his commentary on Genesis into the Toledoths.

I'm not a Hebrew scholar, but I do recall that in Revelation when the phrase "four corners of the earth" is used, the word can literally mean "quarters", or "quadrants" as on a sphere
"Ends" could just mean the uttermost reaches
I know for a fact that the word "world" typically means the known world and is limited to the Roman Empire.
You're assuming he showed him all the kingdoms from that one mountain.
1. "the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain"
2. "and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them"
It doesn't say they didn't leave the mountain
Maybe he showed him other kingdoms in some sort of vision
because when the devil was done, Jesus was back in the wilderness
No contradiction is demanded here.

So Mary Magdalene, Mary mother of James, Joanna, and Salome and "others" were there - some authors just didn't mention all of them
It seems that all but Mary Magdalene left the empty tomb when she saw Jesus.
One possibility of harmonizing all accounts - therefore not a contradiction.

I'll have to dig a little deeper for the stone rolling/who did they tell, but I can tell you're putting the references in an arbitrary order and not allowing for the possibility that some of the women did one thing and some did another - but I'll have to look into the contexts to determine who we're referring to in each case.

So, in other words, it really doesn't matter what contradictions or errors there are in the Bible, you will gloss over them, ignore them, or say they are not important. Fine. Expected. But then you have to agree your opening remarks don't mean anything except you have faith.

[orthodox skeptic]

I believe that the following facets of my faith can be demonstrated by logical deduction

2. The Bible is God's Word*

Can the Bible's divine authorship be demonstrated by logical deduction?

As Blaise Pascal put it, "you can't logically prove the existence of God or an afterlife". That being said, since God is the basis for the Bible it would logically follow that one could not demonstrate the reasonableness of the Bible!

[jimvansage]

Blaise Pascal was wrong.
God and the Bible can be demonstrated rationally.
Faith is not much different than knowledge in this regard, regardless of what Pascal said
(though if you follow Pascal, it might be true, so what's the harm in believing it?)

I'm not ignoring or glossing over your alleged difficulties, I'm just demonstrating that they are not contradictions.
If I can demonstrate that all of the statements you presented can be true, just one possibility, then it is not a true contradiction.

Consider the following:
jimvansage said "I hate fish sandwiches"
jimvansage said "I love fish sandwiches"

I understand without considering anything else, just accepting the fact that I made both statements seems to indicate that I contradicted my self
But ask who, what, where, when, and why if you can
who - jimvansage
what - given
where - at McDonalds, I said I hate fish sandwiches
at the Cafe on Main Street, I said I love fish sandwiches
when - at two different times if at two different locations
why - It's possible that there are two different types of fish sandwiches under consideration: McDonald's which I hate, and the Cafe's which I love

That's not glossing over, that's being rational and demonstrating that both statements can be true and valid.
Of course, it's altogether possible that I as a human have in the past contradicted myself.
It's possible that the Bible contains contradictions, but one would have to explore every obvious and remote possibility before concluding that the two or more statements can't be reconciled harmoniously and logically.

[arian]

But there are things we can know that make the Bible stand out as a document which claims to be the Word of God.

1. there is nothing in the Bible that contradicts our proper scientific understanding of the natural world
2. there are no contradictions

Feeling lazy, so let's just go with the first two for now.
What you are implying, but i'm guessing you will not agree to , is that if it is shown there ARE things in the Bible that contradict 'our proper scientific understanding of the natural world' then we know the Bible is NOT the Word of God.

1. The bible teaches a flat earth** and that the sun orbits the earth.
"The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. "
Ecclesiastes 1:5)

You'll have to talk to all the modern-age weathermen about this also, because for as long as I have been watching TV they keep saying that at sunrise it will be a cool 85 F here in Phoenix AZ, and at sun set it will be 101 F.
Now can you tell me how YOU with your ToE mentality explain a beautiful sunset or a sunrise? How many songs, poems do you know of that use a scientific description of a sunrise or a sunset? I sure would like to hear it?

Flat earth? Why, is it curved where you live?

2.There are many contradictions. Just in the account of the morning of the 'resurrection'*
MATT 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

MARK 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

JOHN 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

Am I missing something here?

When the sabbath is past, it is the end of the sabbath and the first day of the week cometh.

The Order of Creation

Genesis 1:11-12 and 1:26-27 Trees came before Adam.
Genesis 2:4-9 Trees came after Adam.

Gen 2:4-9 is a recap where God puts Adam in the Garden. It is about the life IN the Garden. First God prepares everything, a nice garden with all kind of trees and puts Adam into it "like we put our kids in a nicely designed crib. The crib was made of oak, painted blue with a little mattress with lots of flowers on it."

This doesn't mean I built and painted the crib after the kid was already in it? I'm describing it. So if Abraham is mentioned sacrificing his son in the New Testament, does that mean that Abraham was born when Jesus came?

Genesis 1:20-21 and 26-27 Birds were created before Adam.
Genesis 2:7 and 2:19 Birds were created after Adam.

Genesis 1:24-27 Animals were created before Adam.
Genesis 2:7 and 2:19 Animals were created after Adam.

Genesis 1:26-27 Adam and Eve were created at the same time.
Genesis 2:7 and 2:21-22 Adam was created first, woman sometime later.

Wow, you really have to read the Bible once, ... at least once through. It is not a step-by-step instruction book on what God created, but put in a story format that reveals more and more as you read. If you read the whole thing carefully, you will see that a greater detail of creation, of man and his fall, as they fill the earth and sin abounds is mentioned in many other books, by different authors.

[Danmark]

But there are things we can know that make the Bible stand out as a document which claims to be the Word of God.

1. there is nothing in the Bible that contradicts our proper scientific understanding of the natural world
2. there are no contradictions

Feeling lazy, so let's just go with the first two for now.
What you are implying, but i'm guessing you will not agree to , is that if it is shown there ARE things in the Bible that contradict 'our proper scientific understanding of the natural world' then we know the Bible is NOT the Word of God.

1. The bible teaches a flat earth** and that the sun orbits the earth.
"The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. "
Ecclesiastes 1:5)

You'll have to talk to all the modern-age weathermen about this also, because for as long as I have been watching TV they keep saying that at sunrise it will be a cool 85 F here in Phoenix AZ, and at sun set it will be 101 F.
Now can you tell me how YOU with your ToE mentality explain a beautiful sunset or a sunrise? How many songs, poems do you know of that use a scientific description of a sunrise or a sunset? I sure would like to hear it?

Flat earth? Why, is it curved where you live?

Well, I suppose if you want to rate your God's accuracy with that of TV weathermen, that's your prerogative; however, if I were to believe in a 'god' I'd demand a higher standard.
And yes, the Earth is curved where I live. It's a fairly gentle curve, I'll concede, but indeed it curves around until it meets itself, forming a sphere. Is this news? If you leave Phoenix and go to the coast, you can look out on the ocean where you can see the curve.

I have read the Bible thru. The problem some Christians face is that they don't realize or admit that at least the first 11 chapters of Genesis is rather obviously based on myths, stolen myths. 2 differing creation myths are used, hence the contradictions. Much of the rest of the book and Bible consist of historical fiction, or fictionalized history. Now I do not claim that means there is not some truth there, or that one need give up one's Christian faith because of these issues, but clinging to the idea that the Bible is without error and directly inspired by god and should be interpreted literally is problematic.

The real point here is that when a Christian says the Bible is perfect and has no contradictions, it in a way is an invalid claim, because he will not admit that if one can find error or inaccuracy that finding would affect his view.