Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?

[Nickman]

Cholland said he would like to debate this point so here it is.

Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?

What prophecies does he fulfill and why?

Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?

Cholland your up.....

[Strider324]

If Jesus the Jew believed that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the one true God, and if Jesus the Jew faithfully carried out the will of the God of the Patriarchs, and if Jesus' life and example and teaching were vindicated by God in raising Jesus from the dead, then Jesus is the Jewish Messiah.

I can't find a single verse in the OT that states the Messiah will be known by his resurrection. Can you cite any?

[Danmark]

This discussion brings to mind the question of why Christians proselytize, and Jews do not.

[Nickman]

[quote="[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 279#499279]Nickman[/]
Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?

Yes as of now he best fits the need requirements of the Messiah.

What prophecies does he fulfill and why?

I would direct you to the following link because the number of prophecies Jesus fulfilled are numerous in account; http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prophchr.html .

Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?

Depending on any single persons interpretation yes he can but if you go in looking unbiased and solely focused on the search for the key that will fit the lock, the only man in history that you find is Jesus.

Oh.. that's right. The God and Science has 'LISTS'. Of course, what that web site doe snot do is look at the prophecies in context..

People keep on bringing up those prophesies, but, well, when it comes to be willing to discuss them in detail, they seem to be much more reluctant.

Would you care to show WHY those OT texts are taking about Jesus? Maybe the top one you think best exemplifies those prophecies. Let's see you make a case that those claimed prophecies are 1) actually prophecies, and 2) about Jesus.[/quote]
I will second this and ask for just a few verses from the website so that we can look at them in context and without bias as Jarte says. I've looked at almost every verse that has been proclaimed as Messianic and have never found any other than two that Jesus could have fulfilled. Those would be his Bethlehem birth and his Israelite lineage. Millions of Jews have fulfilled these two over the years. I also like to point out as Charles has said that there are quite a few more Messianic concepts found in the Talmud and the bible alone is not sufficient when it comes to learning about the true nature of the Messiah. I doubt very seriously that most Christians would accept the Talmud as authoritative even though the same scriptures that they stole from the Jews were just as important and incomplete without the Talmud. Lets see those verses.

[cnorman18]

...you carefully choose two passages that are 133 pages apart...

Either quote, taken individually, would be in accord with the understanding of the earliest Jewish followers of Jesus the Jew.

Fair enough, I suppose.

...and are not speaking about a personal, individual Messiah anyway, but about the Messianic Age...

Does the Messiah play any significant role in inaugurating the Messianic Age? Or does it happen simply by osmosis?

Many modern Jews believe that the Messiah will only appear AFTER the Messianic Age has begun. Few other than the Orthodox still believe in a magical figure who will bring it about supernaturally. It is OUR job to bring about an age of perfect peace, justice and faith.

It's a good think to work toward, either way, as opposed to simply folding our hands and waiting for the Deus ex Machina to rescue us and solve all our problems....

...Heschel...he'd have a few words to say about your use of his work...

I made no use of his work other than to demonstrate that his understanding of the "essence of the Messianic role" is very much congruent with that of the earliest Jewish followers of Jesus the Jew.

Fair enough again, but let's make it clear that Heschel IN NO WAY agreed with your view that Christianity is just another form of Judaism or some kind of "fulfillment" of it.

...Heschel...declared that any message which regards Jews as candidates for conversion "proclaims that the destiny of Judaism is to disappear" ... he declared that Jews everywhere would be "dismayed by a call from the Vatican to abandon their [Jewish] faith...

Red herring. There is no need to talk about "conversion" or "abandoning the Jewish faith."

Of course there is. When you claim that accepting Jesus as the Risen Christ and Divine Savior is the same as accepting him as the Messiah, you are talking about precisely that.

...the Christian figure of the Christ is NOT THE SAME as the Jewish figure of the Messiah...

Your notion here is demonstrated false per Heschel's own estimate of the "essence of the Messianic task."

That Heschel expressed a few concepts that you can claim are simliar to Christian ones does NOT prove that the two concepts, of Christ and Messiah, are the same. Shall we start with "God Incarnate"? That idea is repugnant to Jews and will NEVER be accepted by us. There are more such differences, whether you choose to ignore or suppress them or not. We are not concerned with individual "salvation"; we believe that NO ONE can take the punishment or responsibility for our sins but ourselves; we do NOT believe that "the Law" is a burden, brings death and not life, etc., as Paul taught; and so on and so on.

Once again; if you are going to pontificate on what Jews believe, it would behoove you to study a bit and FIND OUT, as opposed to assuming that you KNOW.

...Christians know and serve God through Jesus Christ and the Christian tradition. Jews know and serve God through the Torah and the Jewish tradition." We have a common heritage and a common ethic; we can be partners and not enemies or even rivals...

I agree.

Then why can't we just leave it at that and work together for the values that we share?

...there can be no talk of converting Jews...

Converting Jews is not the issue, and I have never raised it--though you have several times, despite my having repeatedly pointed out the red herringness of such talk.

Claiming that "Jews have accepted Jesus as the Jewish Messiah," when none HAVE since the first century, is merely denying that the issue exists. Many Jews have accepted Jesus as the risen Christ, the Divine Son of God and Savior, and become Christians; but that is NOT THE SAME as "accepting Jesus as the Messiah," no matter how much you wish it were.

Certainly if a Jew were to find the Jewish Messiah, that Jew would not "fall away from of Judaism" simply by recognizing the Jewish Messiah.

No, he would not; but if he recognizes a human being as God in the Flesh, coequal with God the Father, he would have abandoned Judaism and would no longer be practicing the Jewish religion. That's not debatable.

Whether Jesus is the Jewish Messiah is a matter of ontology. Whether certain Jews do or don't believe that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah is a matter of epistemology. In other words, if Jesus is in actual fact the Jewish Messiah, then he is the Jewish Messiah regardless of what any individual Jew or group of Jews happen to believe.

Since the characteristics and identification of the Jewish Messiah are determined by Jews, the matter has long since been settled. Those who dispute that are patently attempting to revise some of the most basic tenets of the Jewish faith and dictate that they should be accepted by Jews. That is no more acceptable than if Jews were to dictate to Christians that they should not worship Jesus as God Incarnate, but must acknowledge that he was only an ordinary mortal man. Would that sit well with you?

If not, then don't tell Jews that there is even any reason to debate whether Jesus was our Messiah. He wasn't. End of debate. You're not Jewish; you don't get a vote, any more than I get a vote on the attributes of the Christ.

If Jesus the Jew believed that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the one true God, and if Jesus the Jew faithfully carried out the will of the God of the Patriarchs, and if Jesus' life and example and teaching were vindicated by God in raising Jesus from the dead, then Jesus is the Jewish Messiah.

As has been asked, where in Jewish tradition is it taught that the Messiah would be identified by being raised from the dead?

Sorry. You are still trying to impose the beliefs of Christians on Jews. Try all you want, but that is not acceptable.

When you're ready to let me tell you what Christians have to believe, I'll have a reason to listen to you. Till then -- you're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to tell you that, as far as Jewish tradition and teachings are concerned, you are unequivocally wrong. Why it's not good enough for you to simply accept me and my fellow Jews as partners in service to God who take a different path is beyond me; but you are making no Jewish friends for Christianity here. Read what Heschel wrote again; I, too, am ready to go to Auschwitz if faced with the choice of conversion or death, as many of my people have been over the centuries; and make no mistake -- expecting Jews to accept that the Christ and the Messiah are the SAME is, indeed, talking about conversion to Christianity.

[EduChris]

...Heschel IN NO WAY agreed with your view that Christianity is just another form of Judaism or some kind of "fulfillment" of it...

I never claimed anything about Hechel's beliefs, other than to quote his own words which demonstrate that his understanding of the essence of the Messianic role was very compatible with that of the earliest Jewish followers of Jesus the Jew.

...When you claim that accepting Jesus as the Risen Christ and Divine Savior is the same as accepting him as the Messiah, you are talking about precisely [conversion]...

Non-sequitur. If Jesus the Jew believed that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the one true God, and if Jesus the Jew faithfully carried out the will of the God of the Patriarchs, and if Jesus' life and example and teaching were vindicated by God in raising Jesus from the dead, then Jesus is the Jewish Messiah and in that case no conversion would be necessary to believe that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah.

...That Heschel expressed a few concepts that you can claim are simliar to Christian ones does NOT prove that the two concepts, of Christ and Messiah, are the same...

Can we agree that it hardly supports the converse view which you have proposed?

...Shall we start with "God Incarnate"? That idea is repugnant to Jews and will NEVER be accepted by us...

What you personally are willing to believe, and what any sub-section of Jewry chooses to deem repugnant--all of that is irrelevant. Please remember the distinction between ontology and epistemology.

...There are more such differences, whether you choose to ignore or suppress them or not. We are not concerned with individual "salvation"; we believe that NO ONE can take the punishment or responsibility for our sins but ourselves; we do NOT believe that "the Law" is a burden, brings death and not life, etc., as Paul taught; and so on and so on...

All of that is irrelevant on multiple grounds (see ontology and epistemology, above). Moreover, Christians are not committed to any of the beliefs which you try to impose on them as if such beliefs were necessary to the Christian tradition.

...if you are going to pontificate on what Jews believe...

It seems to me that you are pontificating on what Christians must believe, even though it seems that you have forgotten more than you ever knew about Christianity.

...it would behoove you to study a bit and FIND OUT, as opposed to assuming that you KNOW...

Hence my reading of Heschel and Sarna and Alter and numerous other Jewish scholars.

...why can't we just leave it at that and work together for the values that we share?...

Because you keep trying to impose the red herring that the beliefs of some sub-section of historic Jewry has anything to do with the ontological status of Jesus the Jew. Let's put it this way: if Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah (annointed), then Jesus is not the Christian Christ (annointed). Therefore, when you make the (completely unsubstantiated) ontological claim that Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah, you are in fact claiming that Christianity is a false religion. All you have to do is say that per longstanding tradition, Jews are excommunicated from Judaism if they accept Jesus as the Jewish Messiah.

...Claiming that "Jews have accepted Jesus as the Jewish Messiah," when none HAVE since the first century, is merely denying that the issue exists. Many Jews have accepted Jesus as the risen Christ, the Divine Son of God and Savior, and become Christians; but that is NOT THE SAME as "accepting Jesus as the Messiah," no matter how much you wish it were...

Nonsense. You are making an idol out of your religious tradition here. If the One True God says that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, then Jesus is the Jewish Messiah.

...if he recognizes a human being as God in the Flesh, coequal with God the Father, he would have abandoned Judaism and would no longer be practicing the Jewish religion. That's not debatable...

Certainly he would be excommunicated from modern Judaism, but that is hardly equivalent to have fallen away from historic Judaism altogether.

...Since the characteristics and identification of the Jewish Messiah are determined by Jews, the matter has long since been settled...

If the Jewish prophets can be trusted, it is a defining mark of Jews that the majority of them will be wrong about numerous matters which God alone can decide.

...Those who dispute that are patently attempting to revise some of the most basic tenets of the Jewish faith...

There is no basic tenet of Judaism that says Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah. Such stipulations were ad hoc and johnny-come-lately.

...don't tell Jews that there is even any reason to debate whether Jesus was our Messiah. He wasn't...

God is the only one who can say whether or not Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. Only God has a vote on this matter.

...You're not Jewish; you don't get a vote, any more than I get a vote on the attributes of the Christ...

Christians believe that Jesus the Jew is the Jewish Messiah. When you claim otherwise, you are attempting to dictate to Christians what they can (or cannot) believe.

...As has been asked, where in Jewish tradition is it taught that the Messiah would be identified by being raised from the dead?...

Where is it taught that the Messiah would be identified by his NOT being raised from the dead?

...as far as Jewish tradition and teachings are concerned, you are unequivocally wrong...

In Jewish tradition, that bit is ad hoc and johnny-come-lately.

...Why it's not good enough for you to simply accept me and my fellow Jews as partners in service to God who take a different path is beyond me...

I am perfectly willing to accept you and other Jews, so long as you do not make absurd ontological claims about Jesus which entail that Christianity is a false religion.

...you are making no Jewish friends for Christianity here...

I feel a great kinship with Heschel and Sarna and Alter and numerous other Jewish scholars.

[Jayhawker Soule]

...As has been asked, where in Jewish tradition is it taught that the Messiah would be identified by being raised from the dead?...

Where is it taught that the Messiah would be identified by his NOT being raised from the dead?

That is easily one of the dumbest arguments I've seen in a long time.

[Jayhawker Soule]

...Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?...

According to preeminent Jewish scholar Abraham Joshua Heschel:

The goal of all efforts is to bring about the restitution of the unity of God and world. The restoration of that unity is a constant process and its accomplishment will be the essence of Messianic redemption (Man is not Alone, p. 112).

He goes on to say:

The Bible is not a history of the Jewish people, but the story of God's quest of the righteous man. Because of the failure of the human species as a whole to follow in the path of righteousness, it is an individual...on which the task is bestowed to satisfy that quest by making every man a righteous man (ibid, p. 245).

According to the earliest Jewish followers of Jesus the Jew, Jesus is that individual who makes every (hu)man righteous in God's eyes, thus fulfilling what Heschel describes as "the essence" of the Messianic task.

Surely you aren't trying to say that Abraham Joshua Heschel believed that Jesus was the Messiah.

Since that is a wholly ludicrous claim -- what on Earth do you hope to accomplish by ringing in these carefully selected quotes?

It is ludicrous and insulting and not in the least atypical.

[LiamOS]

Moderator Warning

It is ludicrous and insulting and not in the least atypical.

That is easily one of the dumbest arguments I've seen in a long time.

These are not adding anything to debate, and are bordering on inflamatory.
Please review our Rules.

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[Danmark]

There is no basic tenet of Judaism that says Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah. Such stipulations were ad hoc and johnny-come-lately.
....
God is the only one who can say whether or not Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. Only God has a vote on this matter.
....

So, you are saying Judaism does not as a matter of its tenets deny Jesus is the Jewish Messiah and it is irrelevant that Jews of all stripes deny Jesus is the Messiah?

I have always wondered why Jews should be so firm in their denial that Jesus was the Messiah. Not to mention a bit embarrassed when I was a Christian that Christianity had the temerity to appropriate Judaism for its own purposes, then disavow the trunk their branch came from. Did Jesus Himself claim to be the Messiah?

[Jayhawker Soule]

Moderator Warning

It is ludicrous and insulting and not in the least atypical.

That is easily one of the dumbest arguments I've seen in a long time.

These are not adding anything to debate, and are bordering on inflamatory.
Please review our Rules.

______________

Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

You are wrong.