Help: How do I know that your God is the one, true God?

[Kir Komrik]

Hi all,
I'm new here and have just read up on the policies and finished my signature, etc. I hope I've done everything correctly so far.
I would like to believe in an almighty power but the problem is that in my research I've found so many gods out there. Coming from a family that has been explicitly atheist for generations, I'm starting from scratch and am looking at all religions.
I am sincerely curious to know how would I know, for instance, that your god is the one, true God?
Thank you.

[AdHoc]

Hi AdHoc,

My reasons for wanting to identify The One, True God are captured in that definition I provided in response to one of sickle's questions. It basically comes down to ensuring I don't worship an imposter.

Why do you find knowledge of belief systems back as far as the plural construction allows is odd? Are you aware of the fact that some people have great-grandparents from Russia who have all been atheist for "generations"? It it doesn't just happen in Russia or formerly Communist-Bloc countries. So, I'm not following what your desired inference there is.

Well, for instance I know very little about my relative's personal beliefs beyond my grandparents it seemed strange to me that you could assert with such confidence the knowledge of your relative's belief systems... I hope this doesn't sound critical but it seemed to me like you were setting the stage for something.

Finally, I don't know that there is no way for this question to be answered. As I've stated, much to some people's apparent surprise, I am more than willing to convert if you can answer my questions with a viable answer at some point. I've open to that all along and there is absolutely nothing dishonest about it. The inference has been made that because I am a deconverter that must mean I'm here to deconvert. One thing's got nothing to do with the other. You cannot deconvert online anyway, and anyone who has done it can tell you that. This is a sincere, open question that some simply cannot handle because of the cognitive dissonace it is causing them.

Ok, then how would you expect it to be answered? With a verse of scripture or some kind of mathematical proof?

[AdHoc]

Hi all,
I'm new here and have just read up on the policies and finished my signature, etc. I hope I've done everything correctly so far.
I would like to believe in an almighty power but the problem is that in my research I've found so many gods out there.

Why do you want to believe in an almighty power?

Hi Ad Hoc, I cannot answer for Kir and I would never even suggest to, but there is a huge difference between like and want.

Kir said he would like to.. not that he WANTS to.

Yes but he also said this...

Hi AdHoc,

My reasons for wanting to identify The One, True God are captured in that definition I provided in response to one of sickle's questions. It basically comes down to ensuring I don't worship an imposter.

Kir wrote:

Coming from a family that has been explicitly atheist for generations, I'm starting from scratch and am looking at all religions.

Ad Hoc replied:

That's an interesting thing to say, I can't tell you with an certainty my families religious beliefs more than 2 generations at the most.

See I find that interesting from your position, Kir. I know the religious and non religious element from my own family tree dating back to around 400CE on one side (a alot of stuff has been lost, burned prior to that.. ) and the 1400's on the other.

I am sincerely curious to know how would I know, for instance, that your god is the one, true God?
Thank you.

Ad Hoc wrote:

I'm sure you already know there is no way for anyone to answer this question for you. I'm guessing that might be the point you are making. The best answer I can give is to ask God to reveal Himself. Whichever God shows up is the one true God.

I am failing to understand that, Ad Hoc. I know when I was a christian I would have been able to answer that one myself in a heartbeat. My God WAS the one true God for me at that point, as if it were not, I would not have been a "follower".

I suppose that is why I am a little as to why the christians who have put their 2 bobs worth in, are finding that their religious faith... something that their worldview pretty much revolves around, cannot explain WHY they believe their God is the "one true".

I presume that you as a Christian DO believe that the God YOU believe in IS the "ONE TRUE GOD", right?

Cat.

Yes but I assume he is looking for proof. You and I both know that's not how Jesus Christ is discovered but if I'm wrong about that I would sincerely like to hear how you would've answered that question in your christian days.

[Kir Komrik]

Yes but he also said this...

Which you're taking out of context. In that example I was talking to sickles about what a seeker would presumably be doing when trying to identify the One, True God in the context of trying to define what one is seeking.
Why are you pre-occupied with ad hominen garbage? Your inference is that I am dishonest and you have no clue what you're talking about, do you?
How could you know that?
As far as proving anything, how many times do I have to explain this?
I want to identify the One, True God with a reasonable degree of confidence. That's all.
Please listen and read more carefully in the future.
So, you see, of course this should be an easy question for an adherent to answer. But as we see from the question no one can and those who have issues with admitting being unable to answer something want to tangent for 500 posts.

[Kir Komrik]

Well, for instance I know very little about my relative's personal beliefs beyond my grandparents ...

then you're an outliar because most people very much do.

it seemed strange to me that you could assert with such confidence the knowledge of your relative's belief systems... I hope this doesn't sound critical but it seemed to me like you were setting the stage for something.

?? No, you're trying to infer that I'm a liar.

Ok, then how would you expect it to be answered? With a verse of scripture or some kind of mathematical proof?

Please think very carefully before you ask questions or make statements like that. How would I know the answer to that if that is the very thing I'm asking?

This is me asking an adherent a question, and the adherent should have these answers, not me.

[micatala]

Now we get to watch what happens when a fanatical belief system is confronted with its own invalidation. This is the point in the questions which some have been so desperately trying to prevent by derailing the thread.

Moderator Comment



Here and in a couple of other posts you refer to beliefs or positions being fanatical. There seems to be no other purpose for such a comment other than as an attack or pejorative comment. It is best to avoid such adjectives in civil debate.

Please review the Rules.


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[sickles]

I would order my motivation for attempting to identify The One, True God as the following:

1.) Are there any consequences to failing to make this identification?

Not divine consequences . No hell. The consequences are ignorance. THe consequences are loss of knowledge. And usually destruction of the ignorant. Not through divine intervention, but through a lack of balance with a place. Not knowing the heed something. THink of it this way. Say you want to chop down a tree. Unbeknownst to you , there is a beehive in this tree. Now, if you chop down this tree without the knowledge of the bees, you destroy unknowlingly something orderly and organized and deserving to be there. You made a misjudgement. You destroy 2 things instead of 1 out of ignorance. If you DO know about the bees, then you are being malicious. Then it is based out of selfishness or survival, not ingorance. THe ultimate consequences are the same: Mutually assured destruction.

2.) Are there any consequences for failing to worship/follow or otherwise identify with the god presumptively identified?

worship .. no. Follow.. no. There is no commandment. Its about the knowledge of good and evil. Supposedly these gods have it. They know how to properly maintain balance. IF these gods are destroyed by unnatural means then those unnatural forces endorse a new god of that place. this is an indictation of lack of balance. The new god that takes up that place can be based off of man made balance. Man would then be presuming to have the knowledge of good and evil, which he certianly does not have. "And on the day that you eat of that tree, you shall surely die. "

3.) Are there any advantages to identifying this god beyond 1 or 2?

Identifying a god is like finding a thermometer. You can know that this place is in balance. Through this god you can see all of life connected to one another without exception.

In your definition of god as you gave it here, I'm not sure how it filters through these questions? It would help me to know that because if the answer is no to all questions then the conversation is a non-starter vis-a-vis my intent and motive behind posing the question.

It kinda is not concerned with salvation and damnation. It is concerned with survival and diversity.

You could consider this, for the purposes of my inquiry, to be the set of conditions necessary but not necessarily sufficient (excepting possibly 3) to suffice as my operational definition of god (a minimal definition).

having a narrow definition of the divine could have you disprove something that is not divine. This is the definition of a straw man. For example you could disquialify YHWY and Allah perhaps. Maybe not Hindo and animism. Have you really accomplished anything then? Did you fulfill your goal of inquiry?

Hey - from your answers it sounds like none of those conditions are met so I'd guess that animism would indeed fall out of my consideration in this question. And I'm fine with that, I just would not view this as a religion (that is just my opinion and not intended to offend) but rather as a philosophical way of life of one sort or another.

You are partially right. It is a philosophy who's conclusion upon understanding is spirituality/religion. Youve just seen the tip of the iceberg my friend ;o)

[Kir Komrik]

Now we get to watch what happens when a fanatical belief system is confronted with its own invalidation. This is the point in the questions which some have been so desperately trying to prevent by derailing the thread.

Moderator Comment



Here and in a couple of other posts you refer to beliefs or positions being fanatical. There seems to be no other purpose for such a comment other than as an attack or pejorative comment. It is best to avoid such adjectives in civil debate.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster.

There is another purpose that is not for the purposes of attack or for making a pejorative comment. It may just be the wrong word for this application. The term "fanatical" I use to refer to a line of reasoning that is compromised by a an emotional attachment to a preconceived belief.

People who study the sociology of Religion call these "core beliefs" but in this context no one would know what I mean. This is necessary and material to the conversation if I wish to demonstrate that the ideas are flawed due to the context in which they were created. If there is any alternative word someone can offer I would greatly appreciate it. That's the only one I could think of. I'm afraid if I just use the word "biased" or "compromised" it would be too general. "Intellectually compromised"? I dunno.

[Kir Komrik]

Question Number 12

Having seen what happens when we substitute narratives with the Confirmation Bias phenomenon, we next see the same thing with the flood narratives vis-à-vis Agenticity.

About Agenticity

Human beings have a known strong tendency to engage in anthropomorphization. Persons with brain damage and Autism tend to be devoid of this tendency or to have a weakened expression of it. This demonstrates how ubiquitous this is in human beings. It is a strong biasing factor. When confronted with mysterious and dramatic events human beings tend to fill the void of uncertainty with human-like agents. The drama provides the motive and the agent solves the mystery. Intelligent deisgn and teleological agruments used by adherent apologists are a form of anthropomorphization. Independent of religious belief, studies show that people will tend to see a “purpose� in the design of perfectly natural (or even abstract) objects by default. The rates for this in young adults are about 33% for natural abiotic objects, 69% for biological organisms and 96% for human artifacts. But when these experiments are conducted with 5 year old children, children make very little distinction between these things. Their numbers are 73% natural objects, 78% biological organisms and 83% human artifact. What this demonstrates is a strong, innate human bias to perceive design in any object. Only upon being socialized and “educated� do human beings begin to refrain, to some degree, from this tendency.

In the flood story of Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh (circa 1800 BCE) the “gods� are just getting annoyed with humans because they reproduce too much
and they are making too much noise for the gods to sleep. A meeting is held between all these gods to decide what to do about this and it is
agreed that a flood will be created to wipe most of them out. In this meeting there is one who disagrees because he has a soft spot for humans in
turn because he likes the sacrifices humans offer to the gods. Though he is out voted, he discreetly comes down to Earth and discloses the flood
plan to a select small group of people and tells them to “build an ark�. Utnapishtim is the human leader he warns, and he instructs him in the
construction of the ark and that he is to take a pair of all animals with him. Then the flood begins.

As the body count begins to mount, the gods begin to have second thoughts about the flood. “Why did we decide to destroy our people�, they asked
and they all cried and trembled. So they called a halt to the flood. The clouds parted and Utnapishtim sends out various birds to test for dry
ground. All the gods agree that should never do this again and a rainbow appears. This is clearly the same story.

Now, we can frame this one of two ways. This religion was polytheistic. But the point in asking these questions is to identify the One, True God,
even if it means that the answer is polytheistic: it doesn't much matter for my purposes whether we identify one or many gods as long as we can
make a meaningiful identification. I'll accept either one. But I'll refer to one of the gods - Utnapishtim - in this story as a candidate for
that role understanding that we could consider it either all of the gods or just Utnapishtim. So, Utnapishtim can be meant to be a god or even a
human being, as long as it is understood as a stand-in for the One, True God.
So, I will test my question by asking, could Utnapishtim be the One, True God? This god is associated with a "flood narrative" which, though it
is long, I believe any Judeo-Christian adherent will nonetheless find not a little fantastically interesting. Here is the relevant excerpt.

Please read it all the way through:

Gilgamesh said to him, to Utnapishtim, the distant:"I gazeupon thee (in amazement), O Utnapishtim!
Thy appearance has not changed, like unto me thou art also.
And thy nature itself has not changed, like unto me thou art also,
though thou hast departed this life. But my heart has still to struggle
against all that no longer (?) lies upon thee.
Tell me, How didst thou come to dwell (here?) and obtain eternal life among the gods?"
[From the shore Utnapishtim, the favourite of the gods, now relates the story of the deluge to the hero, who, sitting in his ship, is listening
to him.]
Utnapishtim then said unto Gilgamesh:
"I will reveal unto thee, O Gilgamesh, the mysterious story,
and the mystery of the gods I will tell thee.
The city of Shurippak, a city which, as thou knowest,
is situated on the bank of the river Euphrates.
That city was corrupt, so that the gods within it
decided to bring about a deluge, even the great gods,
as many as?] there were: their father, Anu;
their counsellor, the warrior Bel;
their leader, Ninib;
their champion, the god En-nu-gi.
But Ea, the lord of unfathomable wisdom, argued with them.
Their plan he told to a reed-hut, (saying):
'Reed-hut, reed-hut, clay-structure, clay-structure!
Reed-hut, hear; clay-structure, pay attention!
Thou man of Shurippak, son of Ubara-Tutu,
Build a house, construct a ship;
Forsake thy possessions, take heed for thy life!
Abandon thy goods, save (thy) life,
and bring living seed of every kind into the ship.
As for the ship, which thou shalt build,
let its proportions be well measured:
Its breadth and its length shall bear proportion each to each,
and into the sea then launch it.'
I took heed, and said to Ea, my lord:
'I will do, my lord, as thou hast commanded;
I will observe and will fulfil the command.
But what shall I answer to (the inquiries of) the city,
the people, and the elders?'
Ea opened his mouth and spoke,
and he said unto me, his servant:
'Man, as an answer say thus unto them:
"I know that Bel hates me. No longer can I live in your city;
Nor on Bel's territory can I live securely any longer; I will go down to the 'deep,' I will live with Ea, my lord.
Upon you he will (for a time?) pour down rich blessing.
He will grant you] fowl [in plenty] and fish in abundance,
Herds of cattle and an abundant] harvest.
Shamash has appointed a time when the rulers of darkness
at eventide will pour down upon you] a destructive rain."'
The lower part of Col. I is unfortunately much mutilated. Line 48 seems to read:
As soon as early dawn appeared.
Then continues line 55:
The brightness [of day?] I feared;
All that was necessary I collected together.
On the fifth day I drew its design;
In its middle part its sides were ten gar high;
Ten gar also was the extent of its deck;
I added a front-roof to it and closed it in.
I built it in six stories,
thus making seven floors in all;
The interior of each I divided again into nine partitions.
Beaks for water within I cut out.
I selected a pole and added all that was necessary.
Three (variant, five) shar of pitch I smeared on its outside;
three shar of asphalt I used for the inside (so as to make
it water-tight).
Three shar of oil the men carried, carrying it in vessels.
One shar of oil I kept out and used it for sacrifices,
while the other two shar the boatman stowed away.
For the temple of the gods (?) I slaughtered oxen;
I killed lambs (?) day by day.
Jugs of cider (?), of oil, and of sweet wine,
Large bowls (filled therewith?), like river water (i. e., freely)
I poured out as libations.
I made a feast (to the gods) like that of the New-Year's Day.
To god Shamash my hands brought oil.
[* * *] the ship was completed.
[* * *] heavy was the work, and
I added tackling above and below, [and after all was finished] ,
The ship sank into water] two thirds of its height.
With all that I possessed I filled it;
with all the silver I had I filled it;
with all the gold I had I filled it;
with living creatures of every kind I filled it.
Then I embarked also all my family and my relatives,
cattle of the field, beasts of the field, and the uprighteous people—all them I embarked.
A time had Shamash appointed, (namely):
'When the rulers of darkness send at eventide a destructive rain,
then enter into the ship and shut its door.'
This very sign came to pass, and
The rulers of darkness sent a destructive rain at eventide.
I saw the approach of the storm,
and I was afraid to witness the storm;
I entered the ship and shut the door.
I intrusted the guidance of the ship to Purur-bel, the boatman,
the great house, and the contents thereof.
As soon as early dawn appeared,
there rose up from the horizon a black cloud,
within which the weather god (Adad) thundered,
and Nabu and the king of the gods (Marduk) went before.
The destroyers passed across mountain and dale (literally, country).
Dibbara, the great, tore loose the anchor-cable (?).
There went Ninib and he caused the banks to overflow;
the Anunnaki lifted on high (their) torches,
and with the brightness thereof they illuminated the universe.
The storm brought on by Adad swept even up to the heavens
and all light was turned into darkness.
[ ] overflooded the land like * * *
It blew with violence and in one day (?) it rose above the mountains (??).
Like an onslaught in battle it rushed in on the people.
Not could brother look after brother.
Not were recognised the people from heaven.
The gods even were afraid of the storm;
they retreated and took refuge in the heaven of Anu.
There the gods crouched down like dogs, on the inclosure of heaven they sat cowering.
Then Ishtar cried out like a woman in travail
and the lady of the gods lamented with a loud voice, (saying):
'The world of old has been turned back into clay,
because I assented to this evil in the assembly of the gods.
Alas! that when I assented to this evil in the council of the gods,
I was for the destruction of my own people.
What I have created, where is it?
Like the spawn of fish it fills the sea.'
The gods wailed with her over the Anunnaki.
The gods were bowed down, and sat there weeping.
Their lips were pressed together (in fear and in terror).
Six days and nights
The wind blew, and storm and tempest overwhelmed the country.
When the seventh day drew nigh the tempest, the storm, the battle
which they had waged like a great host began to moderate.
The sea quieted down; hurricane and storm ceased.
I looked out upon the sea and raised loud my voice,
But all mankind had turned back into clay.
Like the surrounding field had become the bed of the rivers.
I opened the air-hole and light fell upon my cheek.
Dumfounded I sank backward, and sat weeping, while over my cheek flowed the tears.
I looked in every direction, and behold, all was sea.
Now, after twelve (days?) there rose (out of the water) a strip of land.
To Mount Nisir the ship drifted.
On Mount Nisir the boat stuck fast and it did not slip away.
The first day, the second day, Mount Nisir held the ship fast, and did not let it slip away.
The third day, the fourth day, Mount Nisir held the ship fast, and did not let it slip away.
The fifth day, the sixth day, Mount Nisir held the ship,fast, and did not let it slip away.
When the seventh day drew nigh
I sent out a dove, and let her go.
The dove flew hither and thither,
but as there was no resting-place for her, she returned.
Then I sent out a swallow, and let her go.
The swallow flew hither and thither,
but as there was no resting-place for her she also returned.
Then I sent out a raven, and let her go.
The raven flew away and saw the abatement of the waters.
She settled down to feed, went away, and returned no more.
Then I let everything go out unto the four winds, and I offered a sacrifice.
I poured out a libation upon the peak of the mountain.
I placed the censers seven and seven,
and poured into them calamus, cedar-wood, and sweet incense.
The gods smelt the savour;
yea, the gods smelt the sweet savour;
the gods gathered like flies around the sacrificer.
But when now the lady of the gods (Ishtar) drew nigh,
she lifted up the precious ornaments (?)which Anu had made according to her wish (and said):
'Ye gods here! by my necklace, not will I forget.
These days will I remember, never will I forget (them).
Let the gods come to the offering;
But Bel shall not come to the offering,
Since rashly he caused the flood-storm,
and handed over my people unto destruction.'
Now, when Bel drew nigh,
and saw the ship, the god was wroth,
and anger against the gods, the Igigi, filled his heart, (and he said):
'Who then has escaped here (with his life)?
No man was to survive the universal destruction.'
Then Ninib opened his mouth and spoke,
saying unto Bel, the warrior:
'Who but Ea could have planned this!
For does not Ea know all arts?'
Then Ea opened his mouth and spoke,
saying unto Bel, the warrior:
'Ay, thou wise one among the gods, thou warrior,
how rash of thee to bring about a flood-storm!
On the sinner visit his sin,and on the wicked his wickedness;
but be merciful, forbear, let not all be destroyed!
Be considerate, let not everything be [confounded]!
Instead of sending a flood-storm,
let lions come and diminish mankind;
Instead of sending a flood-storm,
let tigers come and diminish mankind;
Instead of sending a flood-storm,
let famine come and smite the land;
Instead of sending a flood-storm,
let pestilence come and kill off the people.
I did not reveal the mystery of the great gods.
(Some one?) caused Atrachasis to see (it) in a dream, and so he (Utnapishtim) heard the mystery of the gods."
Thereupon Bel arrived at a decision.
Bel went up into the ship, took me by the hand and led me out.
He led out also my wife and made her kneel beside me;
He turned us face to face, and standing between us, blessed us, (saying)
'Ere this Utnapishtim was only human;
But now Utnapishtim and his wife shall be lofty like unto the gods;
Let Utnapishtim live far away (from men) at the mouth of the (two?) rivers.'
Then they took me and let us dwell far away at the mouth of the rivers."
After Utnapishtim had finished this account, he turned to Gilgamesh and said:
"Now as for thee, which one of the gods shall give thee strength,
that the life thou desirest thou shalt obtain?
Now sleep!" And for six days and seven nights
Gilgamesh resembled one lying lame.
Sleep came over him like a storm wind.
Then Utnapishtim said to his wife:
"Behold, here is the hero whose desire is life (= recovery)!
Sleep came upon him like a storm wind."
And the wife replied to Utnapishtim, the distant:
"Transform him; let the man eat of the charm-root.
Let him, restored in health, return on the road on which he came.
Let him pass out through the great door unto his own country."
And Utnapishtim said to his wife:
"The suffering (and torture) of the man pain thee.
Well, then, cook now for him the food and place it at his head."
And while Gilgamesh slept on board of his ship,
she cooked the food to place it at his head.
And while he slept on board of his ship,
firstly, his food was prepared (?);
secondly, it was peeled;
thirdly, it was moistened;
fourthly, his food (?) was cleaned;
fifthly, shiba (i. e., old age) was added;
sixthly, it was cooked;
seventhly, of a sudden the man was transformed, having eaten of the magic food.
Then spoke Gilgamesh, and said unto Utnapishtim, the distant:
"I had sunk down, and sleep had befallen me.
Of a sudden thou didst charm me, and thus help me" (?).
And Utnapishtim said unto Gilgamesh:
"* * * Gilgamesh partake of (?) thy food.
* * * shall be told unto thee:
firstly, thy food was prepared (?);
secondly, it was peeled;
thirdly, it was moistened;
fourthly, thy food (?) was cleaned;
fifthly, shipa was added;
sixthly, it was cooked;
seventhly, I transformed thee suddenly,
and thou didst eat of the magic food."
And Gilgamesh said unto Utnapishtim, the distant:
"What?] shall I do, Utnapishtim? whither shall I go?
The demon (of the dead?) has seized my [friend?].
Upon my couch death now sits.
And where my * * * there is death."
And Utnapishtim said to Urshabani, the ferryman:
"Urshabani, thou * * * at thy side (?), let the boat carry thee;
whosoever attempts to board [the ship?] exclude him from it.
The man, before whom thou goest,
has his body covered with sores,
and the eruption of his skin has altered the beauty of his body.
Take him, Urshabani, and bring him to the place of purification,
where he can wash his sores in water that they may become white as snow;
Let him cast off his (sore?) skin and the sea will carry it away;
His body shall then appear well (and healthy);
Let the turban also be replaced on his head,
and the garment that covers his nakedness.
Until he returns to his city,
until he arrives at his road.
The garment shall not shed [hair?], it shall remain entirely new."
And Urshabani took him and brought him to the place of purification,
where he washed his sores in water so that they became white as snow;
he cast off his (sore?) skin and the sea carried it away;
his body appeared well (and healthy) again;
He replaced also the turban on his head;
and the garment that covered his nakedness;
until he should return to his city;
until he should arrive at his road;
[the garment did not shed hair], it remained entirely new.
Then Gilgamesh and Urshabani embarked again,
and during their journey the ship tossed to and fro.
[After Gilgamesh and Urshabani had returned from the place of purification:]
The wife of Utnapishtim spoke unto her husband, the distant, (saying):
"Gilgamesh did go away, laboured, and has pulled (the oar?).
What now wilt thou do (or give), that he may return to his country?"
And Gilgamesh lifted up the pole, and drew the boat nearer to the shore.
Then Utnapishtim spoke unto Gilgamesh (and said):
"Gilgamesh, thou didst go away, didst labour and pull (the oar?).
What now shall I give thee, that thou mayest return to thy country?
I will reveal unto thee, Gilgamesh, a mystery,
and [the decision of the gods] I will announce unto thee.
There is a plant resembling buckthorn, its thorn (?) stings like that of a bramble.
When thy hands can reach that plant * * *
[The following lines 286-293 are greatly mutilated]
When Gilgamesh had heard this he opened the * * *
bound heavy stones [to his feet],
which dragged him down to the sea [and thus he found the plant].
Then he grasped the (magic) plant.
He removed [from his feet] the heavy stones [and one fell down?],
and a second he threw down to the [first?].
And Gilgamesh said unto Urshabani, the ferryman:
"Urshabani, this plant is a plant of great renown (or transformation?);
and what man desires in his heart, he obtains.
I will take it to Uruk the strong-walled, I will nurse (plant?) it there and then cut it off.
Its name is (?): 'Even an old man will be rejuvenated!'
I will eat of this and return (again) to the vigour of my youth."
[And now they start out to return home to Uruk the strong-walled.]
Every twenty double-leagues they then took a meal:
and every thirty double-leagues they took a rest.
And Gilgamesh saw a well wherein was cool (and refreshing) water;
He stepped into it and poured out some water.
A (demon in the shape of a) serpent darted out; the plant slipped [away from his hands];
he came [out of the well?], and took the plant away,
and as he turned back, he uttered a curse (?).
And after this Gilgamesh sat down and wept.
Tears flowed down his cheeks,
and he said unto Urshabani, the ferryman:
"Why, Urshabani, did my hands tremble?
Why did the blood of my heart stand still?
Not on myself did I bestow any benefit.
tOn the ground-lion (?) this benefit has been bestowed.
After a journey of only twenty double-leagues the plant has been snatched away,
As I opened the well, and lowered the vessel (?).
I see the sign, that has become an omen to me. I am to return,
leaving the ship on the shore."
Then they continued to take a meal every twenty double-leagues,
and every thirty double-leagues they took a rest,
until they arrived at Uruk the strong-walled.
Gilgamesh then spoke to Urshabani, the ferryman, (and said):
"Urshabani, ascend and walk about on the wall of Uruk,
Inspect the corner-stone, and examine its brick-work,
whether its wall is not made of burned brick, and its foundation (overlaid with?) pitch.
'Sevenfold is thy name' (?).
[The closing lines can not be correctly translated.]
 
Just as we did for the Helios narrative, we can substitute in a narrative regarding the god YHWH again in this flood epic.

Performing the substitution of the YHWH narrative

First, we’ll have a look at YHWH’s attitude toward humanity at the Creation, then we’ll see his attitude during the flood narrative.

1First Story of Creation. Gnsis001[In the beginning YHWH filled out the Lands of the Earth and her skies.L.T.E.D.R.S.C.H.A.E.Y], and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of YHWH was moving over the face of the waters. 3And YHWH said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. 4And YHWH saw that the light was good; and YHWH separated the light from the darkness. 5YHWH called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day. 6And YHWH said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters." 7And YHWH made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. And it was so. 8And YHWH called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day. 9And YHWH said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear." And it was so. 10YHWH called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And YHWH saw that it was good. 11And YHWH said, "Let the earth put forth vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, upon the earth." And it was so. 12The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And YHWH saw that it was good. 13And there was evening and there was morning, a third day. 14And YHWH said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, 15and let them be lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth." And it was so. 16And YHWH made the two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; he made the stars also. 17And YHWH set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth, 18to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And YHWH saw that it was good. 19And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day. 20And YHWH said, "Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the firmament of the heavens." 21So YHWH created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And YHWH saw that it was good. 22And YHWH blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth." 23And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day. 24And YHWH said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds." And it was so. 25And YHWH made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the cattle according to their kinds, and everything that creeps upon the ground according to its kind. And YHWH saw that it was good. 26Then YHWH said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." 27So YHWH created man in his own image, in the image of YHWH he created him; male and female he created them. 28And YHWH blessed them, and YHWH said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth." 29And YHWH said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. 30And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." And it was so. 31And YHWH saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.

And by Genesis 6 God is unhappy with his creation or is at least surprised at the wickedness of humankind:

1Origin of the Nephilim. Gnsis006When men began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born to them, 2the children of YHWH saw that the daughters of men were fair; and they took to wife such of them as they chose. 3Then YHWH said, "My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for he is flesh, but his days shall be a hundred and twenty years." 4The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of YHWH came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.

Warning of the Flood. 5YHWH saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6And YHWH was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. 7So YHWH said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the ground, man and beast and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them." 8But Noah found favor in the eyes of YHWH. 9These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation; Noah walked with YHWH. 10And Noah had three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. 11Now the earth was corrupt in YHWH's sight, and the earth was filled with violence. 12And YHWH saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth. 13And YHWH said to Noah, "I have determined to make an end of all flesh; for the earth is filled with violence through them; behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Preparation for the Flood. 14Make yourself an ark of gopher wood; make rooms in the ark, and cover it inside and out with pitch. 15This is how you are to make it: the length of the ark three hundred cubits, its breadth fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits. 16Make a roof for the ark, and finish it to a cubit above; and set the door of the ark in its side; make it with lower, second, and third decks. 17For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall die. 18But I will establish my covenant with you; and you shall come into the ark, you, your sons, your wife, and your sons' wives with you. 19And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every sort into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. 20Of the birds according to their kinds, and of the animals according to their kinds, of every creeping thing of the ground according to its kind, two of every sort shall come in to you, to keep them alive. 21Also take with you every sort of food that is eaten, and store it up; and it shall serve as food for you and for them." 22Noah did this; he did all that YHWH commanded him.

And he regrets making humankind. Genesis 6:5-7 elucidates this disappointment clearly as highlighted in bold above. God thus kills almost all animals on Earth because he is sorry that he made humankind. Then God regrets that decision; Genesis 8:21:

121And when YHWH smelled the pleasing odor, YHWH said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I ever again destroy every living creature as I have done.

Another puzzling aspect of this all knowing quality is that God decides to kill off all animals in a manner that results in massive collateral damage. But rather God lacks the sophistication to kill only the “bad� animals. And of course, the logistical problems make this story clearly false.
However, this tale begins to make sense if we assume that this monotheistic version of the story was borrowed from a polytheistic religion that predated Christianity.

In those cases the polytheistic versions do not contain all these contradictions. These gods are not all-knowing and all-powerful, thereby resolving most of the anomalies in the flood story. Several polytheistic flood stories predating the Christian flood story by as much as 1000 years existed. In the flood story of Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh (circa 1800 BCE) the “gods� are just getting annoyed with humans because they reproduce too much and they are making too much noise for the gods to sleep. A meeting is held between all these gods to decide what to do about this and it is agreed that a flood will be created to wipe most of them out. In this meeting there is one who disagrees because he has a soft spot for humans in turn because he likes the sacrifices humans offer to the gods. Though he is out voted, he discreetly comes down to Earth and discloses the flood plan to a select small group of people and tells them to “build an ark�. Utnapishtim is the human leader he warns, and he instructs him in the construction of the ark and that he is to take a pair of all animals with him. Then the flood begins.
As the body count begins to mount, the gods begin to have second thoughts about the flood. “Why did we decide to destroy our people�, they asked and they all cried and trembled. So they called a halt to the flood. The clouds parted and Utnapishtim sends out various birds to test for dry ground. All the gods agree that should never do this again and a rainbow appears. This is clearly the same story. Here the gods are not all good or all powerful, so nothing is out of character in doing these things. This is clearly a religion borrowing situation. In other words, the clear distinction in these stories between all knowing and all powerful gods clearly demonstrates plagiarism.

And we see that, again, there is no material difference.

In other words, what is it about the YHWH narrative that makes it exempt but that does not allow the Utnapishtim narrative the same privilege?

So, the question is:

Is it more likely that Noah’s flood narrative is the result of Agenticity or is it more likely that your god is The One, True God?

[Kir Komrik]

Question Number 12

Having seen what happens when we substitute narratives with the Confirmation Bias phenomenon, we next see the same thing with the flood narratives vis-à-vis Agenticity.

About Agenticity

Human beings have a known strong tendency to engage in anthropomorphization. Persons with brain damage and Autism tend to be devoid of this tendency or to have a weakened expression of it. This demonstrates how ubiquitous this is in human beings. It is a strong biasing factor. When confronted with mysterious and dramatic events human beings tend to fill the void of uncertainty with human-like agents. The drama provides the motive and the agent solves the mystery. Intelligent deisgn and teleological agruments used by adherent apologists are a form of anthropomorphization. Independent of religious belief, studies show that people will tend to see a “purpose� in the design of perfectly natural (or even abstract) objects by default. The rates for this in young adults are about 33% for natural abiotic objects, 69% for biological organisms and 96% for human artifacts. But when these experiments are conducted with 5 year old children, children make very little distinction between these things. Their numbers are 73% natural objects, 78% biological organisms and 83% human artifact. What this demonstrates is a strong, innate human bias to perceive design in any object. Only upon being socialized and “educated� do human beings begin to refrain, to some degree, from this tendency.

In the flood story of Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh (circa 1800 BCE) the “gods� are just getting annoyed with humans because they reproduce too much and they are making too much noise for the gods to sleep. A meeting is held between all these gods to decide what to do about this and it is agreed that a flood will be created to wipe most of them out. In this meeting there is one who disagrees because he has a soft spot for humans in turn because he likes the sacrifices humans offer to the gods. Though he is out voted, he discreetly comes down to Earth and discloses the flood plan to a select small group of people and tells them to “build an ark�. Utnapishtim is the human leader he warns, and he instructs him in the construction of the ark and that he is to take a pair of all animals with him. Then the flood begins.

As the body count begins to mount, the gods begin to have second thoughts about the flood. “Why did we decide to destroy our people�, they asked and they all cried and trembled. So they called a halt to the flood. The clouds parted and Utnapishtim sends out various birds to test for dry ground. All the gods agree that should never do this again and a rainbow appears. This is clearly the same story.

Now, we can frame this one of two ways. This religion was polytheistic. But the point in asking these questions is to identify the One, True God, even if it means that the answer is polytheistic: it doesn't much matter for my purposes whether we identify one or many gods as long as we can make a meaningiful identification. I'll accept either one. But I'll refer to one of the gods - Utnapishtim - in this story as a candidate for that role understanding that we could consider it either all of the gods or just Utnapishtim. So, Utnapishtim can be meant to be a god or even a
human being, as long as it is understood as a stand-in for the One, True God.
So, I will test my question by asking, could Utnapishtim be the One, True God? This god is associated with a "flood narrative" which, though it is long, I believe any Judeo-Christian adherent will nonetheless find not a little fantastically interesting. Here is the relevant excerpt.

Please read it all the way through:

Gilgamesh said to him, to Utnapishtim, the distant:"I gazeupon thee (in amazement), O Utnapishtim!
Thy appearance has not changed, like unto me thou art also.
And thy nature itself has not changed, like unto me thou art also,
though thou hast departed this life. But my heart has still to struggle
against all that no longer (?) lies upon thee.
Tell me, How didst thou come to dwell (here?) and obtain eternal life among the gods?"
[From the shore Utnapishtim, the favourite of the gods, now relates the story of the deluge to the hero, who, sitting in his ship, is listening
to him.]
Utnapishtim then said unto Gilgamesh:
"I will reveal unto thee, O Gilgamesh, the mysterious story,
and the mystery of the gods I will tell thee.
The city of Shurippak, a city which, as thou knowest,
is situated on the bank of the river Euphrates.
That city was corrupt, so that the gods within it
decided to bring about a deluge, even the great gods,
as many as?] there were: their father, Anu;
their counsellor, the warrior Bel;
their leader, Ninib;
their champion, the god En-nu-gi.
But Ea, the lord of unfathomable wisdom, argued with them.
Their plan he told to a reed-hut, (saying):
'Reed-hut, reed-hut, clay-structure, clay-structure!
Reed-hut, hear; clay-structure, pay attention!
Thou man of Shurippak, son of Ubara-Tutu,
Build a house, construct a ship;
Forsake thy possessions, take heed for thy life!
Abandon thy goods, save (thy) life,
and bring living seed of every kind into the ship.
As for the ship, which thou shalt build,
let its proportions be well measured:
Its breadth and its length shall bear proportion each to each,
and into the sea then launch it.'
I took heed, and said to Ea, my lord:
'I will do, my lord, as thou hast commanded;
I will observe and will fulfil the command.
But what shall I answer to (the inquiries of) the city,
the people, and the elders?'
Ea opened his mouth and spoke,
and he said unto me, his servant:
'Man, as an answer say thus unto them:
"I know that Bel hates me. No longer can I live in your city;
Nor on Bel's territory can I live securely any longer; I will go down to the 'deep,' I will live with Ea, my lord.
Upon you he will (for a time?) pour down rich blessing.
He will grant you] fowl [in plenty] and fish in abundance,
Herds of cattle and an abundant] harvest.
Shamash has appointed a time when the rulers of darkness
at eventide will pour down upon you] a destructive rain."'
The lower part of Col. I is unfortunately much mutilated. Line 48 seems to read:
As soon as early dawn appeared.
Then continues line 55:
The brightness [of day?] I feared;
All that was necessary I collected together.
On the fifth day I drew its design;
In its middle part its sides were ten gar high;
Ten gar also was the extent of its deck;
I added a front-roof to it and closed it in.
I built it in six stories,
thus making seven floors in all;
The interior of each I divided again into nine partitions.
Beaks for water within I cut out.
I selected a pole and added all that was necessary.
Three (variant, five) shar of pitch I smeared on its outside;
three shar of asphalt I used for the inside (so as to make
it water-tight).
Three shar of oil the men carried, carrying it in vessels.
One shar of oil I kept out and used it for sacrifices,
while the other two shar the boatman stowed away.
For the temple of the gods (?) I slaughtered oxen;
I killed lambs (?) day by day.
Jugs of cider (?), of oil, and of sweet wine,
Large bowls (filled therewith?), like river water (i. e., freely)
I poured out as libations.
I made a feast (to the gods) like that of the New-Year's Day.
To god Shamash my hands brought oil.
[* * *] the ship was completed.
[* * *] heavy was the work, and
I added tackling above and below, [and after all was finished] ,
The ship sank into water] two thirds of its height.
With all that I possessed I filled it;
with all the silver I had I filled it;
with all the gold I had I filled it;
with living creatures of every kind I filled it.
Then I embarked also all my family and my relatives,
cattle of the field, beasts of the field, and the uprighteous people—all them I embarked.
A time had Shamash appointed, (namely):
'When the rulers of darkness send at eventide a destructive rain,
then enter into the ship and shut its door.'
This very sign came to pass, and
The rulers of darkness sent a destructive rain at eventide.
I saw the approach of the storm,
and I was afraid to witness the storm;
I entered the ship and shut the door.
I intrusted the guidance of the ship to Purur-bel, the boatman,
the great house, and the contents thereof.
As soon as early dawn appeared,
there rose up from the horizon a black cloud,
within which the weather god (Adad) thundered,
and Nabu and the king of the gods (Marduk) went before.
The destroyers passed across mountain and dale (literally, country).
Dibbara, the great, tore loose the anchor-cable (?).
There went Ninib and he caused the banks to overflow;
the Anunnaki lifted on high (their) torches,
and with the brightness thereof they illuminated the universe.
The storm brought on by Adad swept even up to the heavens
and all light was turned into darkness.
[ ] overflooded the land like * * *
It blew with violence and in one day (?) it rose above the mountains (??).
Like an onslaught in battle it rushed in on the people.
Not could brother look after brother.
Not were recognised the people from heaven.
The gods even were afraid of the storm;
they retreated and took refuge in the heaven of Anu.
There the gods crouched down like dogs, on the inclosure of heaven they sat cowering.
Then Ishtar cried out like a woman in travail
and the lady of the gods lamented with a loud voice, (saying):
'The world of old has been turned back into clay,
because I assented to this evil in the assembly of the gods.
Alas! that when I assented to this evil in the council of the gods,
I was for the destruction of my own people.
What I have created, where is it?
Like the spawn of fish it fills the sea.'
The gods wailed with her over the Anunnaki.
The gods were bowed down, and sat there weeping.
Their lips were pressed together (in fear and in terror).
Six days and nights
The wind blew, and storm and tempest overwhelmed the country.
When the seventh day drew nigh the tempest, the storm, the battle
which they had waged like a great host began to moderate.
The sea quieted down; hurricane and storm ceased.
I looked out upon the sea and raised loud my voice,
But all mankind had turned back into clay.
Like the surrounding field had become the bed of the rivers.
I opened the air-hole and light fell upon my cheek.
Dumfounded I sank backward, and sat weeping, while over my cheek flowed the tears.
I looked in every direction, and behold, all was sea.
Now, after twelve (days?) there rose (out of the water) a strip of land.
To Mount Nisir the ship drifted.
On Mount Nisir the boat stuck fast and it did not slip away.
The first day, the second day, Mount Nisir held the ship fast, and did not let it slip away.
The third day, the fourth day, Mount Nisir held the ship fast, and did not let it slip away.
The fifth day, the sixth day, Mount Nisir held the ship,fast, and did not let it slip away.
When the seventh day drew nigh
I sent out a dove, and let her go.
The dove flew hither and thither,
but as there was no resting-place for her, she returned.
Then I sent out a swallow, and let her go.
The swallow flew hither and thither,
but as there was no resting-place for her she also returned.
Then I sent out a raven, and let her go.
The raven flew away and saw the abatement of the waters.
She settled down to feed, went away, and returned no more.
Then I let everything go out unto the four winds, and I offered a sacrifice.
I poured out a libation upon the peak of the mountain.
I placed the censers seven and seven,
and poured into them calamus, cedar-wood, and sweet incense.
The gods smelt the savour;
yea, the gods smelt the sweet savour;
the gods gathered like flies around the sacrificer.
But when now the lady of the gods (Ishtar) drew nigh,
she lifted up the precious ornaments (?)which Anu had made according to her wish (and said):
'Ye gods here! by my necklace, not will I forget.
These days will I remember, never will I forget (them).
Let the gods come to the offering;
But Bel shall not come to the offering,
Since rashly he caused the flood-storm,
and handed over my people unto destruction.'
Now, when Bel drew nigh,
and saw the ship, the god was wroth,
and anger against the gods, the Igigi, filled his heart, (and he said):
'Who then has escaped here (with his life)?
No man was to survive the universal destruction.'
Then Ninib opened his mouth and spoke,
saying unto Bel, the warrior:
'Who but Ea could have planned this!
For does not Ea know all arts?'
Then Ea opened his mouth and spoke,
saying unto Bel, the warrior:
'Ay, thou wise one among the gods, thou warrior,
how rash of thee to bring about a flood-storm!
On the sinner visit his sin,and on the wicked his wickedness;
but be merciful, forbear, let not all be destroyed!
Be considerate, let not everything be [confounded]!
Instead of sending a flood-storm,
let lions come and diminish mankind;
Instead of sending a flood-storm,
let tigers come and diminish mankind;
Instead of sending a flood-storm,
let famine come and smite the land;
Instead of sending a flood-storm,
let pestilence come and kill off the people.
I did not reveal the mystery of the great gods.
(Some one?) caused Atrachasis to see (it) in a dream, and so he (Utnapishtim) heard the mystery of the gods."
Thereupon Bel arrived at a decision.
Bel went up into the ship, took me by the hand and led me out.
He led out also my wife and made her kneel beside me;
He turned us face to face, and standing between us, blessed us, (saying)
'Ere this Utnapishtim was only human;
But now Utnapishtim and his wife shall be lofty like unto the gods;
Let Utnapishtim live far away (from men) at the mouth of the (two?) rivers.'
Then they took me and let us dwell far away at the mouth of the rivers."
After Utnapishtim had finished this account, he turned to Gilgamesh and said:
"Now as for thee, which one of the gods shall give thee strength,
that the life thou desirest thou shalt obtain?
Now sleep!" And for six days and seven nights
Gilgamesh resembled one lying lame.
Sleep came over him like a storm wind.
Then Utnapishtim said to his wife:
"Behold, here is the hero whose desire is life (= recovery)!
Sleep came upon him like a storm wind."
And the wife replied to Utnapishtim, the distant:
"Transform him; let the man eat of the charm-root.
Let him, restored in health, return on the road on which he came.
Let him pass out through the great door unto his own country."
And Utnapishtim said to his wife:
"The suffering (and torture) of the man pain thee.
Well, then, cook now for him the food and place it at his head."
And while Gilgamesh slept on board of his ship,
she cooked the food to place it at his head.
And while he slept on board of his ship,
firstly, his food was prepared (?);
secondly, it was peeled;
thirdly, it was moistened;
fourthly, his food (?) was cleaned;
fifthly, shiba (i. e., old age) was added;
sixthly, it was cooked;
seventhly, of a sudden the man was transformed, having eaten of the magic food.
Then spoke Gilgamesh, and said unto Utnapishtim, the distant:
"I had sunk down, and sleep had befallen me.
Of a sudden thou didst charm me, and thus help me" (?).
And Utnapishtim said unto Gilgamesh:
"* * * Gilgamesh partake of (?) thy food.
* * * shall be told unto thee:
firstly, thy food was prepared (?);
secondly, it was peeled;
thirdly, it was moistened;
fourthly, thy food (?) was cleaned;
fifthly, shipa was added;
sixthly, it was cooked;
seventhly, I transformed thee suddenly,
and thou didst eat of the magic food."
And Gilgamesh said unto Utnapishtim, the distant:
"What?] shall I do, Utnapishtim? whither shall I go?
The demon (of the dead?) has seized my [friend?].
Upon my couch death now sits.
And where my * * * there is death."
And Utnapishtim said to Urshabani, the ferryman:
"Urshabani, thou * * * at thy side (?), let the boat carry thee;
whosoever attempts to board [the ship?] exclude him from it.
The man, before whom thou goest,
has his body covered with sores,
and the eruption of his skin has altered the beauty of his body.
Take him, Urshabani, and bring him to the place of purification,
where he can wash his sores in water that they may become white as snow;
Let him cast off his (sore?) skin and the sea will carry it away;
His body shall then appear well (and healthy);
Let the turban also be replaced on his head,
and the garment that covers his nakedness.
Until he returns to his city,
until he arrives at his road.
The garment shall not shed [hair?], it shall remain entirely new."
And Urshabani took him and brought him to the place of purification,
where he washed his sores in water so that they became white as snow;
he cast off his (sore?) skin and the sea carried it away;
his body appeared well (and healthy) again;
He replaced also the turban on his head;
and the garment that covered his nakedness;
until he should return to his city;
until he should arrive at his road;
[the garment did not shed hair], it remained entirely new.
Then Gilgamesh and Urshabani embarked again,
and during their journey the ship tossed to and fro.
[After Gilgamesh and Urshabani had returned from the place of purification:]
The wife of Utnapishtim spoke unto her husband, the distant, (saying):
"Gilgamesh did go away, laboured, and has pulled (the oar?).
What now wilt thou do (or give), that he may return to his country?"
And Gilgamesh lifted up the pole, and drew the boat nearer to the shore.
Then Utnapishtim spoke unto Gilgamesh (and said):
"Gilgamesh, thou didst go away, didst labour and pull (the oar?).
What now shall I give thee, that thou mayest return to thy country?
I will reveal unto thee, Gilgamesh, a mystery,
and [the decision of the gods] I will announce unto thee.
There is a plant resembling buckthorn, its thorn (?) stings like that of a bramble.
When thy hands can reach that plant * * *
[The following lines 286-293 are greatly mutilated]
When Gilgamesh had heard this he opened the * * *
bound heavy stones [to his feet],
which dragged him down to the sea [and thus he found the plant].
Then he grasped the (magic) plant.
He removed [from his feet] the heavy stones [and one fell down?],
and a second he threw down to the [first?].
And Gilgamesh said unto Urshabani, the ferryman:
"Urshabani, this plant is a plant of great renown (or transformation?);
and what man desires in his heart, he obtains.
I will take it to Uruk the strong-walled, I will nurse (plant?) it there and then cut it off.
Its name is (?): 'Even an old man will be rejuvenated!'
I will eat of this and return (again) to the vigour of my youth."
[And now they start out to return home to Uruk the strong-walled.]
Every twenty double-leagues they then took a meal:
and every thirty double-leagues they took a rest.
And Gilgamesh saw a well wherein was cool (and refreshing) water;
He stepped into it and poured out some water.
A (demon in the shape of a) serpent darted out; the plant slipped [away from his hands];
he came [out of the well?], and took the plant away,
and as he turned back, he uttered a curse (?).
And after this Gilgamesh sat down and wept.
Tears flowed down his cheeks,
and he said unto Urshabani, the ferryman:
"Why, Urshabani, did my hands tremble?
Why did the blood of my heart stand still?
Not on myself did I bestow any benefit.
tOn the ground-lion (?) this benefit has been bestowed.
After a journey of only twenty double-leagues the plant has been snatched away,
As I opened the well, and lowered the vessel (?).
I see the sign, that has become an omen to me. I am to return,
leaving the ship on the shore."
Then they continued to take a meal every twenty double-leagues,
and every thirty double-leagues they took a rest,
until they arrived at Uruk the strong-walled.
Gilgamesh then spoke to Urshabani, the ferryman, (and said):
"Urshabani, ascend and walk about on the wall of Uruk,
Inspect the corner-stone, and examine its brick-work,
whether its wall is not made of burned brick, and its foundation (overlaid with?) pitch.
'Sevenfold is thy name' (?).
[The closing lines can not be correctly translated.]
 
Just as we did for the Helios narrative, we can substitute in a narrative regarding the god YHWH again in this flood epic.

Performing the substitution of the YHWH narrative

First, we’ll have a look at YHWH’s attitude toward humanity at the Creation, then we’ll see his attitude during the flood narrative.

1First Story of Creation. Gnsis001[In the beginning YHWH filled out the Lands of the Earth and her skies.L.T.E.D.R.S.C.H.A.E.Y], and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of YHWH was moving over the face of the waters. 3And YHWH said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. 4And YHWH saw that the light was good; and YHWH separated the light from the darkness. 5YHWH called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day. 6And YHWH said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters." 7And YHWH made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. And it was so. 8And YHWH called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day. 9And YHWH said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear." And it was so. 10YHWH called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And YHWH saw that it was good. 11And YHWH said, "Let the earth put forth vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, upon the earth." And it was so. 12The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And YHWH saw that it was good. 13And there was evening and there was morning, a third day. 14And YHWH said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, 15and let them be lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth." And it was so. 16And YHWH made the two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; he made the stars also. 17And YHWH set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth, 18to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And YHWH saw that it was good. 19And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day. 20And YHWH said, "Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the firmament of the heavens." 21So YHWH created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And YHWH saw that it was good. 22And YHWH blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth." 23And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day. 24And YHWH said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds." And it was so. 25And YHWH made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the cattle according to their kinds, and everything that creeps upon the ground according to its kind. And YHWH saw that it was good. 26Then YHWH said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." 27So YHWH created man in his own image, in the image of YHWH he created him; male and female he created them. 28And YHWH blessed them, and YHWH said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth." 29And YHWH said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. 30And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." And it was so. 31And YHWH saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.

And by Genesis 6 God is unhappy with his creation or is at least surprised at the wickedness of humankind:

1Origin of the Nephilim.

Gnsis006When men began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born to them, 2the children of YHWH saw that the daughters of men were fair; and they took to wife such of them as they chose. 3Then YHWH said, "My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for he is flesh, but his days shall be a hundred and twenty years." 4The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of YHWH came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.

Warning of the Flood.

5YHWH saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6And YHWH was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. 7So YHWH said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the ground, man and beast and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them." 8But Noah found favor in the eyes of YHWH. 9These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation; Noah walked with YHWH. 10And Noah had three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. 11Now the earth was corrupt in YHWH's sight, and the earth was filled with violence. 12And YHWH saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth. 13And YHWH said to Noah, "I have determined to make an end of all flesh; for the earth is filled with violence through them; behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Preparation for the Flood.

14Make yourself an ark of gopher wood; make rooms in the ark, and cover it inside and out with pitch. 15This is how you are to make it: the length of the ark three hundred cubits, its breadth fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits. 16Make a roof for the ark, and finish it to a cubit above; and set the door of the ark in its side; make it with lower, second, and third decks. 17For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall die. 18But I will establish my covenant with you; and you shall come into the ark, you, your sons, your wife, and your sons' wives with you. 19And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every sort into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. 20Of the birds according to their kinds, and of the animals according to their kinds, of every creeping thing of the ground according to its kind, two of every sort shall come in to you, to keep them alive. 21Also take with you every sort of food that is eaten, and store it up; and it shall serve as food for you and for them." 22Noah did this; he did all that YHWH commanded him.

And he regrets making humankind. Genesis 6:5-7 elucidates this disappointment clearly as highlighted in bold above. God thus kills almost all animals on Earth because he is sorry that he made humankind. Then God regrets that decision; Genesis 8:21:

121And when YHWH smelled the pleasing odor, YHWH said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I ever again destroy every living creature as I have done.

Another puzzling aspect of this all knowing quality is that God decides to kill off all animals in a manner that results in massive collateral damage. But rather God lacks the sophistication to kill only the “bad� animals. And of course, the logistical problems make this story clearly false.
However, this tale begins to make sense if we assume that this monotheistic version of the story was borrowed from a polytheistic religion that predated Christianity.

In those cases the polytheistic versions do not contain all these contradictions. These gods are not all-knowing and all-powerful, thereby resolving most of the anomalies in the flood story. Several polytheistic flood stories predating the Christian flood story by as much as 1000 years existed. In the flood story of Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh (circa 1800 BCE) the “gods� are just getting annoyed with humans because they reproduce too much and they are making too much noise for the gods to sleep. A meeting is held between all these gods to decide what to do about this and it is agreed that a flood will be created to wipe most of them out. In this meeting there is one who disagrees because he has a soft spot for humans in turn because he likes the sacrifices humans offer to the gods. Though he is out voted, he discreetly comes down to Earth and discloses the flood plan to a select small group of people and tells them to “build an ark�. Utnapishtim is the human leader he warns, and he instructs him in the construction of the ark and that he is to take a pair of all animals with him. Then the flood begins.
As the body count begins to mount, the gods begin to have second thoughts about the flood. “Why did we decide to destroy our people�, they asked and they all cried and trembled. So they called a halt to the flood. The clouds parted and Utnapishtim sends out various birds to test for dry ground. All the gods agree that should never do this again and a rainbow appears. This is clearly the same story. Here the gods are not all good or all powerful, so nothing is out of character in doing these things. This is clearly a religion borrowing situation. In other words, the clear distinction in these stories between all knowing and all powerful gods clearly demonstrates plagiarism.

And we see that, again, there is no material difference.

In other words, what is it about the YHWH narrative that makes it exempt but that does not allow the Utnapishtim narrative the same privilege?

So, the question is:

Is it more likely that Noah’s flood narrative is the result of Agenticity or is it more likely that your god is The One, True God?

[AdHoc]

Yes but he also said this...

Which you're taking out of context. In that example I was talking to sickles about what a seeker would presumably be doing when trying to identify the One, True God in the context of trying to define what one is seeking.

Uh no your comment was directed to me AdHoc and how am I taking this out of context?…

Hi AdHoc,

My reasons for wanting to identify The One, True God are captured in that definition I provided in response to one of sickle's questions. It basically comes down to ensuring I don't worship an imposter.

Why are you pre-occupied with ad hominen garbage? Your inference is that I am dishonest and you have no clue what you're talking about, do you?
How could you know that?

I did not intend to infer that you were being dishonest I felt like you were setting a trap, which is not dishonest it’s clever. I have tried to do the same thing (though I haven’t been able to catch anyone yet). By the combative tone of your posts I am becoming more sure of my belief that you are not looking to be led to any God but of course I could be wrong.

As far as proving anything, how many times do I have to explain this?
I want to identify the One, True God with a reasonable degree of confidence. That's all.
Please listen and read more carefully in the future.
So, you see, of course this should be an easy question for an adherent to answer. But as we see from the question no one can and those who have issues with admitting being unable to answer something want to tangent for 500 posts.

Fair enough, can you answer my question, Why would you like to identify the one true God?

Well, for instance I know very little about my relative's personal beliefs beyond my grandparents ...

then you're an outliar because most people very much do.

I am not an outliar and I think most people most certainly very much do not.

it seemed strange to me that you could assert with such confidence the knowledge of your relative's belief systems... I hope this doesn't sound critical but it seemed to me like you were setting the stage for something.

?? No, you're trying to infer that I'm a liar.

I am not but I think you might be an outlier

Ok, then how would you expect it to be answered? With a verse of scripture or some kind of mathematical proof?

Please think very carefully before you ask questions or make statements like that. How would I know the answer to that if that is the very thing I'm asking?

This is me asking an adherent a question, and the adherent should have these answers, not me.

Ok, I don’t have a better answer than the one I already gave you.