Was Jesus the messiah of the Hebrew bible?

[Nickman]

Cholland said he would like to debate this point so here it is.

Was Jesus the the messiah as prescribed by the Hebrew bible?

What prophecies does he fulfill and why?

Can he be shown to not fulfill the Hebrew text?

Cholland your up.....

[todd_vetter33]

If anyone wants to know if the G-12 Text is ancient. Below is evidence

[image of non evidence redacted]

What I find most ironic about the worlds current state at telling the true story of Jesus according to prophecy: Christians don't want this information because they love their tradtion which they believe does not mis-represent Jesus. People who don't care due to the mis-representation of Christians don't want this informaiton because they love that they have a reason to doubt via Christianity!

Todd, I'm going to have to go with Wikipedia on this one, at least until the manuscript is produced. That's the manuscript that 'was "communicated" by departed mystics "in dreams and visions of the night"'.

The Gospel of the Holy Twelve is a disputed apocryphal publication which was first serialised in The Lindsey and Lincolnshire Star newspaper between July 30, 1898 and March 10, 1901.[1]
The first collected edition of essays (or 'Lections') by the author, a former clergyman, Rev. Gideon Jasper Richard Ouseley (1834"1906) was published in 1901. By the time of Ouseley's death the title was out of print but the executor of his manuscript, Samuel Hopgood Hart (1865"1958) re-issued the text in 1924. There have been numerous editions published since the 1950s and the title remains in print and on the Internet.[2]
[edit]Controversy

The Gospel of the Holy Twelve presents vegetarian versions of traditional teachings and events described in the canonical New Testament. The first collected volume was issued by The Order of At-One-Ment and United Templars Society - a publishing imprint which the author had established in 1881. The explanatory preface referred to an ancient source manuscript "preserved in the Monasteries of Thibet" which has never been produced or proven to exist. In subsequent editions, released during the early 1900s, the anonymous Editors revised their claim by stating that the text was "communicated" by departed mystics "in dreams and visions of the night".
The work remains unrecognised by academic Biblical scholars and has been dismissed by modern theologians and historians of the animal rights movement. In response to a campaign by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals which claimed "Jesus was a Vegetarian", the Reverend Professor Andrew Linzey referred to The Gospel of the Holy Twelve and similar publications, stating, "try as I may, I can find no evidence for their antiquity and I deeply fear that they are works of fiction."[3] Richard Alan Young, a Professor of New Testament Studies has similarly stated, "It appears that Ouseley created The Gospel of the Holy Twelve in support of animal welfare and vegetarianism."
_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gospel ... oly_Twelve
For more fun looking at this animal rights 19th Century silliness:
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/ouseley01.html

Todd, instead of posting these images which no one here reads, you might try questioning your mentor about how he knows this text, which was not published until 1901, matches the actual manuscript in Tibet that was transmitted by dead mystics.

Does not matter if it matches the manuscript in tibet or not. What matters is this: Does it present truth where the bible does not.

There is no perfect written gospel text, this is a fact that is clearly seen when just the 4 bible gospels are cross compared. Take the information for what it is worth. Speculation.

But to date it's the best speculation in favor of Jesus as messiah fulfilling time specific prophecy. If you took the time to read one of the charts i posted, you'll see that some of the information found in the G-12 text could not have been frauded by an alleged mystic.

The overall point you clearly missed is that Time specific prophecy which predated the existance of Jesus in the flesh, points to Jesus being killed in 30 AD where a Passover occured on a Wednesday. This in turn gives credibility to the words Jesus actually spoke concerning his death and resurrection. With Christianity having many untrue speculations about How Jesus fulfilled time specific prophecy, they have succeeded in Making Jesus look like a liar due to professing a lie about the one they claim to follow.

[Danmark]

Does not matter if it matches the manuscript in tibet or not. What matters is this: Does it present truth where the bible does not.

There is no perfect written gospel text, this is a fact that is clearly seen when just the 4 bible gospels are cross compared. Take the information for what it is worth. Speculation.

But to date it's the best speculation in favor of Jesus as messiah fulfilling time specific prophecy. If you took the time to read one of the charts i posted, you'll see that some of the information found in the G-12 text could not have been frauded by an alleged mystic.

The overall point you clearly missed is that Time specific prophecy which predated the existance of Jesus in the flesh, points to Jesus being killed in 30 AD where a Passover occured on a Wednesday. This in turn gives credibility to the words Jesus actually spoke concerning his death and resurrection.

Why does it not matter where G-12 came from? You claimed it was an ancient text and not a 19th Century text. The evidence is that it is indeed from the 19th Century. Now you say that does not matter. Fine, we'll move on.

Your next claim is that it presents the truth and your basis for that is that it fulfills prophesy about Jesus, or to quote you "The overall point you clearly missed is that Time specific prophecy which predated the existance of Jesus in the flesh, points to Jesus being killed in 30 AD where a Passover occured on a Wednesday. This in turn gives credibility to the words Jesus actually spoke concerning his death and resurrection."

Todd, can you see that if something is written in the 19th Century, long after the Gospels and long after the prophesies, it can be written so that it fits the prophesies? Or for that matter that it fits anything you want it to fit.

It's like me waiting for you to write something, then predicting you will write it, e.g. I predict you will write, at exactly 9:25 this morning [U.S. Pacific Standard time] "Does not matter if it matches the manuscript in tibet or not."

Think of it this way: You take 100 darts, blindfold yourself, and throw the darts one by one at a wall. You take off the blindfold and walk to the board and you draw a bullseye around each dart so the bullseye is centered around the dart. Then you exclaim, "Look! My aim is perfect!" Using this analogy the darts and where they landed are the prophesies. The bullseyes are the words written in the gospels, particularly a 'gospel' written by Mr. Ousley in the 19th Century that he claims to have received from dead people during his dreams.

The words are written to fit the darts.

[todd_vetter33]

Does not matter if it matches the manuscript in tibet or not. What matters is this: Does it present truth where the bible does not.

There is no perfect written gospel text, this is a fact that is clearly seen when just the 4 bible gospels are cross compared. Take the information for what it is worth. Speculation.

But to date it's the best speculation in favor of Jesus as messiah fulfilling time specific prophecy. If you took the time to read one of the charts i posted, you'll see that some of the information found in the G-12 text could not have been frauded by an alleged mystic.

The overall point you clearly missed is that Time specific prophecy which predated the existance of Jesus in the flesh, points to Jesus being killed in 30 AD where a Passover occured on a Wednesday. This in turn gives credibility to the words Jesus actually spoke concerning his death and resurrection.

Why does it not matter where G-12 came from? You claimed it was an ancient text and not a 19th Century text. The evidence is that it is indeed from the 19th Century. Now you say that does not matter. Fine, we'll move on.

Your next claim is that it presents the truth and your basis for that is that it fulfills prophesy about Jesus, or to quote you "The overall point you clearly missed is that Time specific prophecy which predated the existance of Jesus in the flesh, points to Jesus being killed in 30 AD where a Passover occured on a Wednesday. This in turn gives credibility to the words Jesus actually spoke concerning his death and resurrection."

Todd, can you see that if something is written in the 19th Century, long after the Gospels and long after the prophesies, it can be written so that it fits the prophesies? Or for that matter that it fits anything you want it to fit.

It's like me waiting for you to write something, then predicting you will write it, e.g. I predict you will write, at exactly 9:25 this morning [U.S. Pacific Standard time] "Does not matter if it matches the manuscript in tibet or not."

Think of it this way: You take 100 darts, blindfold yourself, and throw the darts one by one at a wall. You take off the blindfold and walk to the board and you draw a bullseye around each dart so the bullseye is centered around the dart. Then you exclaim, "Look! My aim is perfect!" Using this analogy the darts and where they landed are the prophesies. The bullseyes are the words written in the gospels, particularly a 'gospel' written by Mr. Ousley in the 19th Century that he claims to have received from dead people during his dreams.

The words are written to fit the darts.

Does it matter where the bible gospels come from if they are not speaking perfect truth from front to back? Everyone is so concerned that the english translations are an accurate reflection of the greek manuscripts, that no one ever conciders if the greek is telling the truth according to TRUTH.



When I look at the two bible gospels illustrated in the last illustration, I question, could jesus have spoken two different phrases at the same time concerning his death and resurrection? No.. this is just a fact so only one of the phrases gets to be truth according to truth of what was spoken.

Then there is the issue of Testimony found in Matthew that is missing from Mark. Is the additional information in Matthew concerning the ROCK truth?

Not according to the G-12 text.



What Matters is this: If Jesus was a true prophet and Messiah, What did he actually teach? What did he actually say to lead people to a better life and spiritual re-birth/Salvation?

I care not for the source of ancient texts. I care if the text speaks truths so that truth can be re-discovered and proven. Is G-12 text perfect? HELL No... are the 4 bible gospels? EVEN bigger HELL NO.

Does the posibility for a spirit of truth to exist that can bring to rememberance all things Jesus said? Yes if Jesus did in fact fulfill perfect time specific prophecy as illustrated in the charts I shared.

Was Jesus a Vegetarian as the G-12 text states in comparison to the 4 bible gospels? Yes if Jesus fulfilled prophecy conerning the messiah. In the kingdom established by Messiah (spiritual kingdom where he was a physical living example), there is to be no Blood shed of any of god's creatures. The vegetarian message of the G-12 text only adds to the credibility that it is an ancient text and there are many ancient Historians who validate that the followers of Jesus were vegetarians.

Again... i'm not willing to uproot the historical record. I simply look for the truth from the lie found in the historical record.

Prophecy appears to be perfect truth that can be proven, But there is much in the ancient record that is not prophecy yet men claim it to be scripture. This they do to their own folly.

[Danmark]

Does it matter where the bible gospels come from if they are not speaking perfect truth from front to back? Everyone is so concerned that the english translations are an accurate reflection of the greek manuscripts, that no one ever conciders if the greek is telling the truth according to TRUTH.


When I look at the two bible gospels illustrated in the last illustration, I question, could jesus have spoken two different phrases at the same time concerning his death and resurrection? No.. this is just a fact so only one of the phrases gets to be truth according to truth of what was spoken.

Then there is the issue of Testimony found in Matthew that is missing from Mark. Is the additional information in Matthew concerning the ROCK truth?

Not according to the G-12 text.

What Matters is this: If Jesus was a true prophet and Messiah, What did he actually teach? What did he actually say to lead people to a better life and spiritual re-birth/Salvation?

I care not for the source of ancient texts. I care if the text speaks truths so that truth can be re-discovered and proven. Is G-12 text perfect? HELL No... are the 4 bible gospels? EVEN bigger HELL NO.

Does the posibility for a spirit of truth to exist that can bring to rememberance all things Jesus said? Yes if Jesus did in fact fulfill perfect time specific prophecy as illustrated in the charts I shared.

You have ignored my elegant darts example. I do agree with you that the 4 traditional gospel accounts contradict themselves in places. I don't accept their authority either, but at least they have the virtue of having been written about 1800 years closer to the events written about. And no one claims they got them in a dream sent by dead mystics somewhere in 'Thibet' [sic].

Please tell me Todd, how did you come to hear about G-12? Did you have a teacher who introduced you to this stuff? Are you a vegetarian? An animal rights advocate? And who are these poor folks who have you, a genuine high school graduate, to teach them the error of their ways?

[todd_vetter33]

Does it matter where the bible gospels come from if they are not speaking perfect truth from front to back? Everyone is so concerned that the english translations are an accurate reflection of the greek manuscripts, that no one ever conciders if the greek is telling the truth according to TRUTH.


When I look at the two bible gospels illustrated in the last illustration, I question, could jesus have spoken two different phrases at the same time concerning his death and resurrection? No.. this is just a fact so only one of the phrases gets to be truth according to truth of what was spoken.

Then there is the issue of Testimony found in Matthew that is missing from Mark. Is the additional information in Matthew concerning the ROCK truth?

Not according to the G-12 text.

What Matters is this: If Jesus was a true prophet and Messiah, What did he actually teach? What did he actually say to lead people to a better life and spiritual re-birth/Salvation?

I care not for the source of ancient texts. I care if the text speaks truths so that truth can be re-discovered and proven. Is G-12 text perfect? HELL No... are the 4 bible gospels? EVEN bigger HELL NO.

Does the posibility for a spirit of truth to exist that can bring to rememberance all things Jesus said? Yes if Jesus did in fact fulfill perfect time specific prophecy as illustrated in the charts I shared.

You have ignored my elegant darts example. I do agree with you that the 4 traditional gospel accounts contradict themselves in places. I don't accept their authority either, but at least they have the virtue of having been written about 1800 years closer to the events written about. And no one claims they got them in a dream sent by dead mystics somewhere in 'Thibet' [sic].

Please tell me Todd, how did you come to hear about G-12? Did you have a teacher who introduced you to this stuff? Are you a vegetarian? An animal rights advocate? And who are these poor folks who have you, a genuine high school graduate, to teach them the error of their ways?

Though your dart theory is interesting. It does not explain why over 9 time specific prophecies come into perfect alignment on a single day in earth history where the Crucfixion actually took place.

I came across the G-12 text when searching for evidence that Jesus fulfilled time specific prophecy. Currently Christians and Christian doctrine claim Jesus fulfilled prophecy but then illustrate that he did not fulfill time specific prophecy. Christian doctrine originated from the G-12 text, but was manipulated by hellenistic Christians and Roman Catholics to be the 4 bible gospels that are in use today by the Christians.

[Danmark]

Though your dart theory is interesting. It does not explain why over 9 time specific prophecies come into perfect alignment on a single day in earth history where the Crucfixion actually took place.

I came across the G-12 text when searching for evidence that Jesus fulfilled time specific prophecy. Currently Christians and Christian doctrine claim Jesus fulfilled prophecy but then illustrate that he did not fulfill time specific prophecy. Christian doctrine originated from the G-12 text, but was manipulated by hellenistic Christians and Roman Catholics to be the 4 bible gospels that are in use today by the Christians.

This time you only threw one dart, then drew 9 bullseyes around it.

If the Hellenistic Christians and Roman Catholics' doctrine was based on the G-12 text, that it DOES matter if the G-12 text is from the 19th Century since G-12 would have had to have been available by about 50 CE, so Paul and later the gospel writers could use it. Right, Todd? But as agree, there is no evidence of G-12 existing prior to the 19th Century, except of course Mr. O's claim that it came from dreams from long dead Tibetan mystics, unnamed.

[Goat]

Time specific Prophecy is a witness that man cannot manipulate, unfortunately it appears that Christianity messed up the evidence of the time specific prophecy witness to a point that God looses Credibility if Jesus did in fact die on 5 April 30 AD according to time specific prophecy.

Blessings

The New Testament was written not only decades after the life of Jesus, but hundreds of years after the prophesies and written so as to appear to fit the prophesies. Think of a man shooting an arrow into the air and another moving the target to where the arrow appears to be landing.

Not only that, but it relies on vague references, passages written to and out of context, and mistranslations.

Notice, there wasn't any 'true discussion', but images being linked to