Atheists are 'discriminated against'?

[stubbornone]

Well, here is the story:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/blake-pag ... 32279.html

"While there are certainly numerous problems with the developmental program at West Point and all service academies, the tipping point of my decision to resign was the realization that countless officers here and throughout the military are guilty of blatantly violating the oaths they swore to defend the Constitution. These men and women are criminals, complicit in light of day defiance of the Uniform Code of Military Justice through unconstitutional proselytism, discrimination against the non-religious and establishing formal policies to reward, encourage and even at times require sectarian religious participation."

Yep, in this 'long gray line' of hypocrisy and discrimination, our hero above lists ... not a single instance of this supposedly pervasive trend in the military. So, here are some things that our oppressed atheists have to ... painfully tolerate.

#1 - Prayers, those who are religious, and there are many different denominations BTW, will pray. Those who wish to pray collectively are allowed to do - freedom of religious expression is a protected right. Being unconscionably offended by someone else's expression of religion is ... aside from making you a total wanker ... also not about the US Constitution.

#2 - No doubt, just like our hero here, religious groups are afforded space and time to pray and organize, as does the author of this article. Somehow though, allowing others to practice their faith is intolerable to him? But his .. er, religious? views must be afforded sole consideration?

Beyond that, the military really doesn't give a hoop about your faith. It encourages you to have one, in anything, but only because it helps, scientifically proven, to deal with the rigors of combat. You want to be Pagan? More power too ya. You want to be atheist? Great, but we'd encourage you to explore secular humanism, if only to have a non-affiliative source that will help you deal with the emotional aspect of combat.

Somehow, this approach is ... intolerable to young atheists? Science and the effects of combat on human beings are to be rejected in favor of hyperbole?

Well, I for one hope the Army recoups its entire investment in this gravely discriminated dork - who is SO discriminated against that they allowed him into the school, trained him, educated him, allowed him to freely practice and organize his faith - indeed even be a student leader ... and this was intolerable disrespect because the Army didn't shut down everyone else's faith? Prevent the criticism of his precious choices?

Not only will this be an expensive life lesson, but when young atheist super hero joins the actual work force, he'll quickly discover that no employer anywhere appreciates a young crusader who pisses off all their religious clients. What then atheist hero?

The Army is there to win wars. Businesses are there to make money. This guy? Has a lot to learn about how the world works and the costs of excessive pride and rationalization.

I for one advocate that we let him learn that lesson. The last thing our boys need in combat is some wanker talking about how much worse he has it than everyone else around him.

[stubbornone]

[
The point was given to you twice now. How graciously you accept that is a mattter for you.

The 'point' is your version is a conspiracy theory at odds with the facts. Your 'point' is a fake moon landing. That you keep saying it doesn't make it factual, it just means you are stubborn, obtuse or both.

Not exactly the hallmark of logic is it?

Yes. Never. Well folk send xmas cards if that counts. But saying a prayer in public unless your are in church is kind of a social faux pas here in the uk. So I can truly say to you that in 30 years (or so) I have never ever seen anyone in the work place say a prayer, or even take themselves off on their own somewhere to pray. Maybe that is what they do, but they are subtle about it if they do. It is even rare these days to hear someone say "God Bless you". I seem to remember that being more common a couple of decades ago. I can't remember anyone saying "God save the Queen" other than in jest or when singing the national anthem at Rugby matches. We never say "God bless Britain" or "God bless England"....that just sounds weird.

I pray with Brits all the time. God Save the Queen is now wierd and is never uttered anywhere near you ... right, and this is relevant to wonderkid how?

Right, its called saving face - or attempting too.

Folk on occasion talk about religion but this is ususally critically. You just do not see and hear much in the way of worship unless you are in church, where most folk don't go, or only manage it for funerals and weddings. I have friends at work who are religious. One fellah I respect immensely is Christian. Never seen him prayer or heard a religious utterance. Couple of things he says and does give away he is working within a Chrisitian ethic

.

So you atheism is merely a popularity contest then? Has nothing to do with fact? You are simply another lemming following the trend ... gotcha.

I had another co worker drop a verse from scipture into the conversation to illustrate a point a couple of weeks ago. That was a first. Worked with him five years and had no idea he was religious. The fact he referenced the bible was so unusual it took me back a little. I did not have a problem with it and I learnt something about him. But then I was not being forced.

Right, despite participating in religious debate forum, and first denying that you EVER heard religion work ... well, there was that one time a few weeks ago ... and I am sure if you think a bit harder you'll think of other examples shortly.

And yes, when you heard him utter that prayer you were every bit as forced as wonderkid. Now, why do you still work there? Why haven't you contacted the police? Fled to France?

RIght, because that would be asinine.

Had another short conversation once with another co worker who warned me against the evils of Harr Potter. Whilst it is generally known this fellah is religious, he is also generally regarded as eccentric.

Well, he should probably resign from West Point in protest to your unconstitutional refusal to tolerate his opinion on Harry Potter then. Right?

I work on the railways. There is a railway chaplain. I see him about from time to time. Never seen him prayer or lead a prayer. I guess he must do that with folk he is counselling and who are open to that kind of thing, but it is all done in private.

OH? We have yet ANOTHER example of religion in your workplace where there is none ... accept in church. And I am sure that a Chaplain never prays outside his office?

Best be resigning now ... that is the standard for atheism with this mounting realization of what of a victim you are. 30 years of basically ignoring it ... but NOW ... well, NOW you are victim brother. Best resign immediately. Write wonderkid and tell him how right he really was!

It was only abour five years ago or so that I was invited to dinner at someone's house and they said grace. I was in my forties and that was the first time I had seen it for real as opposed to only seeing it on American TV shows.

A few weeks ago a Chaplain and now five years ago ... but actually never. And this will get relevant when?

So xmas cards, a couple of conversations, and an awareness of a very few number of my coworkers as being religious, otherwiseI generally live in a society that is suspicious of overt displays of religiosity outside of a Church, Mosque or synagogue, or maybe a few very formal ceremonies like Rememberance Sunday. That's it.

And lets not forget voluntary participation in a religion forum, which of course means you should resign from your job post haste. You are clearly a victim at being forced to participate on this forum?

Code: Select all

You comment that it is a good marketing tool would be laughed at here. Serioiusly no. On a social par with asking folk if they want to come to your swinging party. Never ever heard of anyone walking into a busness meeting or visiting their customer and saying a prayer.  :lol: Just not done.

God Save the Queen. And I am sure turning Pat Tilman into an atheist conspiracy involving paranoid delusions or murderers around every corner ... in a country you assure me it is quite common mind you ... is helpful?

Perhaps if you are in the security business ... alas, you are in the rail road business.

Come to think of it I am struggling to think of the last time I saw someone wear a cross. I am sure folk still do......I guess.

See above. Not noticing because you are not looking is not the same as an absence.

http://www.christian.org.uk/

Wonder where that came from. Did you know Chris Hitchens has a brother? Wrote a book too ... Also British ... Peter writes about his journey away from atheism in direct result to his brother ... which is of course impossible because it just doesn't happen in Britain.

I guess I am responding not just from a position of atheism but also from living in a society with much lower levels of public religiosity.

I think you have hit upon the second nature of atheism. It's not driven by evidence, but by preconceptions and acceptance of only what fulfills those desires. You so know evidence of religion, indeed claim your society is basically atheist, when you have a pontificate at the head of the church of England, which surely doesn't exist? You have simply come up with a rationalization to suit your preconception and are literally ignoring evidence to the contrary ... until you think about it, and then never becomes ... a few here and there ... and eventually, "Holy Cow! My Country has a large church with its head right here in glorious old England!!!"

Indeed, there is no evidence if you simply refuse to see it. A concept many atheist s who consider themselves logical would do well to remember.

After all, we are agreeing that it is wise to resign from west point based on ... claims of discrimination and criminally murderous conspiracies involving the deliberate killing of atheists.

Let me know when you will make a case about wonderkid.

[Furrowed Brow]

You atheists really live in a strange wonderland of illogic. Not wanting to get hit with a sprinkler and having something violently shoved into your rectum are the same thing?

It depends on what takes your fancy and what is normalised within a group. How much do we have to ramp down the analogy you introduced for you to be able to accept there is some kind of moral equivalence?

How about forcing someone who does not wish to watch gay porn. Can you accept that is on a moral par with forcing someone to listen to or partake of a prayer....if that is something they really do not wish to do. And even if your world view brings you to disagree with that.....that is your world view...why not just have the good grace to let people out the room when you say a prayer if they do not wish to be there, or maybe say the prayer on your own time before the meeting.

What you are doing is called the guilt by association fallacy, and making public sex, which is not protected free speech and is in fact a crime, the equivalent of praying, which is protected free speech, is stupid.

Well it is up to you if you want to ramp up the hyperbole. Let's try and tone it down. What if a quick gay cuddle, maybe a short kiss on the lips before all meetings was the public norm, and you really do not feel so inclined. Should you be forced or even forced to be in the room when the cuddling is going on if you do not wish it?

And serioiusly no I do not think that comparison is absurd. And the point to these kinds of comparision is to illuminate the forcefulness of the rejection of being forced to do anything you do not wish to do and which is also not relevent, needed, or of benefit.

The point which you do not wish to address is the issue of force.

Its simply a rather jerkish way of saying I am illogical and will disagree with anything you say based solely on your religion ... but I am not he bigot - you are!

I am happy at least one person around here is not a bigot.

Caught lying? No worries, its the same thing as gay sex, so don;t pass judgement.

Lying is mostly wrong. There is nothing morally wrong with gay sex per se.

Its called constitutionally protected free speech. And its interesting how you simply ignore the evidence and context of such a thing when it suits you ... another blow to the silly claim that atheism is rational in the slightest.

I'm sorry. I am not an expert. Can you point me to where in your constitution it says that during the exercise of free speech someone esle must be forced to listen.

Forcing someone to listen to you and shut up is not free speech. That really is North Korea.

[Furrowed Brow]

The point was given to you twice now. How graciously you accept that is a mattter for you.

The 'point' is your version is a conspiracy theory at odds with the facts. Your 'point' is a fake moon landing. That you keep saying it doesn't make it factual, it just means you are stubborn, obtuse or both.

This response is not an accurate reflection of what has been said or the evidence put forward to support what was said. Whilst I have withdrawn the point a number of times and have admiited Tillman could have been killed through incompetance. It is true it is not a strong point and the evidence and the facts are open to interpretation, clearly listening to the affidavit of the soldeir who stood next to Tillman when he died, is not on a par with fake moon landing conspiracies. Not even close.

I pray with Brits all the time. God Save the Queen is now wierd and is never uttered anywhere near you ... right, and this is relevant to wonderkid how?

Erm... its relevence is that it was a response to your point 2. But straight answer "God bless England" would be weird, but yes unless sung as part of the national anthem or maybe some very formal ceremony (though I can't actually think which one) "God save the Queen" is a little weird and certainly archaic.. Seriously no one talk like that anymore....at least not in natural conversations or contexts or even semi formal ones. Maybe the Queens birthday as part of some formal occasion I really can't think when I last heard it uttered in any seriousness other than sung at a Rugby match. It is just an archaic part of our heritage.

Right, its called saving face - or attempting too.

I'm sorry that you might doubt what I say.

Right, despite participating in religious debate forum, and first denying that you EVER heard religion work ... well, there was that one time a few weeks ago ... and I am sure if you think a bit harder you'll think of other examples shortly.

My response is an accurate description of the levels of religiosity in the UK. Religion is there if you want to go hunt it down. But it is by and large hardly noticable to those who do not.

And yes, when you heard him utter that prayer you were every bit as forced as wonderkid.

It was not a prayer. You do like to twist things.

OH? We have yet ANOTHER example of religion in your workplace where there is none ... accept in church.

Erm...yes...it is list of example of religion in the work place. At no point have I said there was none. My list gives examples what there is; and you are trying to twist it as if I am saying there is none....when I am openly giving examples of what there is Pleez stop its hurting.

It was only about five years ago or so that I was invited to dinner at someone's house and they said grace. I was in my forties and that was the first time I had seen it for real as opposed to only seeing it on American TV shows.

A few weeks ago a Chaplain and now five years ago ... but actually never. And this will get relevant when?

Relevence: we get by in the UK with much lower levels of religiosity. The point is that what you are assuming is the way it is and demanding other folk to get used to is a world view formed in a society with much higher levels of religiosity than elsewhere...and as a result your anger and disdian is just....well....very parochial.

Not noticing because you are not looking is not the same as an absence.

Erm.....very much so. Religion gets by without other folk having to look. We hardly notice it. Which was the whole point and is the antidote to the kind of enforced religiosity you advocate.

Wonder where that came from. Did you know Chris Hitchens has a brother?

Yes. He writes a column in the Sunday Mail. Think of someone who is as fierce and strong of view as was Christopher but less charming, more tetchy, and a theist. They had a life long loathing and a very troubled relationship. Peter wrote of visiting his brother for the last time when he was very ill, and was glad they managed not to argue.

Wrote a book too ... Also British ... Peter writes about his journey away from atheism in direct result to his brother ... which is of course impossible because it just doesn't happen in Britain.

Cor blimey fellah you like twisiting things. Never said or implied a journey towards Christianity was impossible or even difficult. However, if you are aware of Peter Hitchens' writings then you will know he fumes and fulminates over modern secular and liberal Britian and despises the shrinkage of Christianity in British cultural life. I think you two would agree on many things.

My Country has a large church with its head right here in glorious old England!!!"

Yes. Exactly. And yet we who are not religious are never called upon to pray or be a part of a prayer, or stand on the edge of a group praying......unless we walk into Church.

Let me know when you will make a case about wonderkid.

The point is religion and specifically Christianity can get by with a much lower profile in everyday life and the work place, and non one has to be forced to do anything.....except if they are in the US and in the mitlitary it seems.

[micatala]

Your prayers are protected by the Constitution. Freedom of expression is also protected by the Constitution. But I am sure these are just rhetorical questions. You are implying the objection raised in that blog violate one or both of these rights. Tell me, how would me skipping church, stop you from worshiping, or affect your freedom of expression?

So please explain to me how atheist wonderboy is a victim because he had to listen to an opening prayer when a pluralistic audience of many faiths comes together and a prayer is offered ... like for honoring dead Soldiers? It's too much to sit in silence and allow others to express their protected speech?

He did skip church, for four years, and was about to graduate anyway.

In short, we are searching for excuses to be victims, when in fact, its just whining. Once we conceed the point that prayers are protected religious speech ... atheist wonderkid is simply being a jerk.


.....


Not only that, but when we force our values on others ... like say prohibition, what happens? What happens when people attempt to force the removal of religion? SO we should, in addition to being basically jerks about our values, ALSO just throw out history and its analysis?

[/quote]

You atheists really live in a strange wonderland of illogic. Not wanting to get hit with a sprinkler and having something violently shoved into your rectum are the same thing?

What you are doing is called the guilt by association fallacy, and making public sex, which is not protected free speech and is in fact a crime, the equivalent of praying, which is protected free speech, is stupid.

Its simply a rather jerkish way of saying I am illogical and will disagree with anything you say based solely on your religion ... but I am not he bigot - you are!

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[Zetesis Apistia]

Well, here is the story:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/blake-pag ... 32279.html

"While there are certainly numerous problems with the developmental program at West Point and all service academies, the tipping point of my decision to resign was the realization that countless officers here and throughout the military are guilty of blatantly violating the oaths they swore to defend the Constitution. These men and women are criminals, complicit in light of day defiance of the Uniform Code of Military Justice through unconstitutional proselytism, discrimination against the non-religious and establishing formal policies to reward, encourage and even at times require sectarian religious participation."

Yep, in this 'long gray line' of hypocrisy and discrimination, our hero above lists ... not a single instance of this supposedly pervasive trend in the military. So, here are some things that our oppressed atheists have to ... painfully tolerate.

#1 - Prayers, those who are religious, and there are many different denominations BTW, will pray. Those who wish to pray collectively are allowed to do - freedom of religious expression is a protected right. Being unconscionably offended by someone else's expression of religion is ... aside from making you a total wanker ... also not about the US Constitution.

#2 - No doubt, just like our hero here, religious groups are afforded space and time to pray and organize, as does the author of this article. Somehow though, allowing others to practice their faith is intolerable to him? But his .. er, religious? views must be afforded sole consideration?

Beyond that, the military really doesn't give a hoop about your faith. It encourages you to have one, in anything, but only because it helps, scientifically proven, to deal with the rigors of combat. You want to be Pagan? More power too ya. You want to be atheist? Great, but we'd encourage you to explore secular humanism, if only to have a non-affiliative source that will help you deal with the emotional aspect of combat.

Somehow, this approach is ... intolerable to young atheists? Science and the effects of combat on human beings are to be rejected in favor of hyperbole?

Well, I for one hope the Army recoups its entire investment in this gravely discriminated dork - who is SO discriminated against that they allowed him into the school, trained him, educated him, allowed him to freely practice and organize his faith - indeed even be a student leader ... and this was intolerable disrespect because the Army didn't shut down everyone else's faith? Prevent the criticism of his precious choices?

Not only will this be an expensive life lesson, but when young atheist super hero joins the actual work force, he'll quickly discover that no employer anywhere appreciates a young crusader who pisses off all their religious clients. What then atheist hero?

The Army is there to win wars. Businesses are there to make money. This guy? Has a lot to learn about how the world works and the costs of excessive pride and rationalization.

I for one advocate that we let him learn that lesson. The last thing our boys need in combat is some wanker talking about how much worse he has it than everyone else around him.

I feel discriminated against by the IRS because they give me no choice in paying taxes.

[JoeyKnothead]

I feel discriminated against by the IRS because they give me no choice in paying taxes.

You have the choice of not paying 'em, and potentially going to jail.

That you don't like the choice offered doesn't mean there ain't one being offered.

[Furrowed Brow]

I feel discriminated against by the IRS because they give me no choice in paying taxes.

You have the choice of not paying 'em, and potentially going to jail.

That you don't like the choice offered doesn't mean there ain't one being offered.

That is not a real choice Joey.

When we are forced to pay taxes at least in theory we might think the money goes to maybe building roads and helping parents feed their families. Something that could benefit us now or maybe just maybe we might need to fall back on one day.

A better comparison might be a government that extracted a tax from you, made you watch them spend it on bibles that said that as an atheist you are a fool, and then have these bibles handed out to everyone with Psalm 14:1 underlined and emboldened.

[Zetesis Apistia]

I feel discriminated against by the IRS because they give me no choice in paying taxes.

You have the choice of not paying 'em, and potentially going to jail.

That you don't like the choice offered doesn't mean there ain't one being offered.

And atheists can close their eyes and stick their fingers in their ears during prayer time in schools. Everything in life is about choice. But the IRS is not giving me a choice of paying or not paying. If I don't pay they come and take everything I own. So no I don't have a choice and thus I am discriminated against.

Not only that but I am taxed everywhere I go. At the pump, at the cash register, at the restaurant. So in these cases they just take it without offering a choice.

[JoeyKnothead]

I feel discriminated against by the IRS because they give me no choice in paying taxes.

You have the choice of not paying 'em, and potentially going to jail.

That you don't like the choice offered doesn't mean there ain't one being offered.

That is not a real choice Joey.

When we are forced to pay taxes at least in theory we might think the money goes to maybe building roads and helping parents feed their families. Something that could benefit us now or maybe just maybe we might need to fall back on one day.

A better comparison might be a government that extracted a tax from you, made you watch them spend it on bibles that said that as an atheist you are a fool, and then have these bibles handed out to everyone with Psalm 14:1 underlined and emboldened.

I refuse to debate anyone who's so much better at it than me.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 38:

And atheists can close their eyes and stick their fingers in their ears during prayer time in schools.

The old, if you don't like it, go to hell defense.

Everything in life is about choice.

Says the one who declares he has no choice.

But the IRS is not giving me a choice of paying or not paying. If I don't pay they come and take everything I own. So no I don't have a choice and thus I am discriminated against.

What part of pay your taxes or get your stuff took do you most struggle with the comprehending?

Not only that but I am taxed everywhere I go. At the pump, at the cash register, at the restaurant. So in these cases they just take it without offering a choice.

Please offer some means to confirm you were forced to purchase anything.