Atheists are 'discriminated against'?

[stubbornone]

Well, here is the story:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/blake-pag ... 32279.html

"While there are certainly numerous problems with the developmental program at West Point and all service academies, the tipping point of my decision to resign was the realization that countless officers here and throughout the military are guilty of blatantly violating the oaths they swore to defend the Constitution. These men and women are criminals, complicit in light of day defiance of the Uniform Code of Military Justice through unconstitutional proselytism, discrimination against the non-religious and establishing formal policies to reward, encourage and even at times require sectarian religious participation."

Yep, in this 'long gray line' of hypocrisy and discrimination, our hero above lists ... not a single instance of this supposedly pervasive trend in the military. So, here are some things that our oppressed atheists have to ... painfully tolerate.

#1 - Prayers, those who are religious, and there are many different denominations BTW, will pray. Those who wish to pray collectively are allowed to do - freedom of religious expression is a protected right. Being unconscionably offended by someone else's expression of religion is ... aside from making you a total wanker ... also not about the US Constitution.

#2 - No doubt, just like our hero here, religious groups are afforded space and time to pray and organize, as does the author of this article. Somehow though, allowing others to practice their faith is intolerable to him? But his .. er, religious? views must be afforded sole consideration?

Beyond that, the military really doesn't give a hoop about your faith. It encourages you to have one, in anything, but only because it helps, scientifically proven, to deal with the rigors of combat. You want to be Pagan? More power too ya. You want to be atheist? Great, but we'd encourage you to explore secular humanism, if only to have a non-affiliative source that will help you deal with the emotional aspect of combat.

Somehow, this approach is ... intolerable to young atheists? Science and the effects of combat on human beings are to be rejected in favor of hyperbole?

Well, I for one hope the Army recoups its entire investment in this gravely discriminated dork - who is SO discriminated against that they allowed him into the school, trained him, educated him, allowed him to freely practice and organize his faith - indeed even be a student leader ... and this was intolerable disrespect because the Army didn't shut down everyone else's faith? Prevent the criticism of his precious choices?

Not only will this be an expensive life lesson, but when young atheist super hero joins the actual work force, he'll quickly discover that no employer anywhere appreciates a young crusader who pisses off all their religious clients. What then atheist hero?

The Army is there to win wars. Businesses are there to make money. This guy? Has a lot to learn about how the world works and the costs of excessive pride and rationalization.

I for one advocate that we let him learn that lesson. The last thing our boys need in combat is some wanker talking about how much worse he has it than everyone else around him.

[stubbornone]

Why are atheists defending these antics?

Likely because of this point

..discrimination against the non-religious and establishing formal policies to reward, encourage and even at times require sectarian religious participation.

If this is clearly false or misleading then there is nothing or little to defend here.

If it is close to true then we debate 1/ its significance 2/ whether that two way road should be made level.

As far as I can tell you are not denying the truth of the claim, but you are claiming the reality of this kind of descrimination is not important and the fellah should get over it, and atheists should quite their whining....yet you do not deny the truth of the claim....or at least I do not think you are saying we are whining over an outrageous lie.

When asked questions and given imaginary examples to probe how you might feel if the position was reversed you fail to offer a straight answer, which leads to the observation you accept the two way road is not on the level and you like it that way, and would resist moves to bring West Point in line with the constitution. In fact you seem to be arguing that if the road is made level that would be unfair.

Well, that tells me you don't know how the military works. The fact that a one star general took the time out to work with and mentor wonderkid - well, that is exactly the kind of treatment he is alleging exists based in religion. Only he got that special access based on his ... atheism - which was fine for him. However, when a general mentors a Christian ... its a special favor.

And the 'mandatory' religious participation is ... opening prayers as mass attendance events which, ALL Soldiers have to attend. Indeed, in the places where we fight wars, when you lead, and a Mullah opens a session with a prayer, that is considered a good culture practice and inclusion, even if you detest Islam or think it asinine. Its that PLURALISTIC thing that you atheists keep forgetting to actually address.

So please, feel free to explain to us how wonderkids interaction with a GO is not a special favor (and it is), but a Christian cadets interaction with a GO IS blatantly discrimination?

Feel free to explain to us how allowing others to pray openly is too painful? By all means, explain to anyone at all, how cultural sensitivity and the ability to tolerate differences in religious opinion actually makes ... our atheist hero a super victim?

Well, because he says its all bad? But when we examine what he claims, we find a young kid who is making a mountain our of a mole hill, thinking he smarter than Generals about how the military works and what their policies are, and that he is actually a victim, so much so that he is willing to resign ... though he was denied absolutely nothing and given the same access to his religious choice as everyone else was for theirs.

Tell me, why is wonderkid not just a serial whiner? Because he says he is not? Because he says there is discrimination ... but because he is an atheist, there is no way that he could be wrong or immature?

Lemmings.

[stubbornone]

I feel discriminated against by the IRS because they give me no choice in paying taxes.

You have the choice of not paying 'em, and potentially going to jail.

That you don't like the choice offered doesn't mean there ain't one being offered.

And atheists can close their eyes and stick their fingers in their ears during prayer time in schools. Everything in life is about choice. But the IRS is not giving me a choice of paying or not paying. If I don't pay they come and take everything I own. So no I don't have a choice and thus I am discriminated against.

Not only that but I am taxed everywhere I go. At the pump, at the cash register, at the restaurant. So in these cases they just take it without offering a choice.

So, give up your social security number, give up your post office box, stop using currency.. and go to the barter system, and you don't have to pay taxes if it means so much to you.

As for prayer in school. the landmark decision .. in 1962 was brought by religious people who said having the school lead a prayer to 'almight god' was against their religious view..

Mind you, that is school lead prayer.. over the intercom. Students, on their own, have the right to pray, or not.

Many a prayer has gone out in public schools to this very day, particularly right before the math test.

And the simple fact of the matter is that prayer is a protected - explicitly - expression. You can disagree with it all you want, no one is saying you have to like it.

BUT ...

You DO have to allow people to express it, and if you do not ... its your antics that can be restrained. Make sense?

And the simple fact of the matter is that if West Point did what wonderkid wants them to, they face a slew of law suits for ... drum roll ... blocking free speech.

What SSN's and barter systems have to do with that? No idea.

But atheists, who seem to define themselves solely by attempting to deny other people their protected rights, are just going to have to get over themselves or continue banging their heads into a wall ... or resigning from West Point so people can think wonder wanker is either an idiot a coward or both.

We can pray. You'll just have to accept that atheists.

And,no one is stopping them.

However, the school, as a representative of the government, can not promote religion. The students can pray all they want.. the teachers and the school can not get involved in either promoting, or discriminating against it.

The 'prayer' in West point was promoting religious prayer. .. in specifically 'in the name of Jesus'. .. as representing the American government, this is unconstitutional.

So you solution to enabling the expression of protected free speech is to ban it?

Because what free speech means, especially protected free speech, is that atheists should not have to listen to it if they do not want to.

Well, they hide in a cave - no one is stopping you.

If, however, you want to serve in a highly secular institution that is inclusive of diverse cultures and religious faiths ... you kind of have to figure out how to be part of an inclusive process - rather than demanding that everyone else stop being who they are so you can be who you are.

Well, I recommend North Korea. They are the result of the unilateral authoritarianism that you demand in respect to other cultures in a pluralistic society.

And what is stopping you from heading to North Korea to follow where your ideology leads?

Well, maybe it has something to do with atheism really being about attacking other people based on their faith rather than any deeply felt intellectual process leading to a lifestyle of conviction, duty, and dedication to the 'truth'?

Instead, we are promoting resigning from a pluralistic society because atheist wonderkid unilaterally deems the inclusive practices to be ... bigotry?

Yeah, atheism?

[stubbornone]

So please explain to me how atheist wonderboy is a victim because he had to listen to an opening prayer when a pluralistic audience of many faiths comes together and a prayer is offered ... like for honoring dead Soldiers?

That depends if he was forced to partake or not.

It's too much to sit in silence and allow others to express their protected speech?

It's not the listening part that is the problem, it's the being forced part that is too much.

He did skip church, for four years, and was about to graduate anyway.

So clearly the army accepts that ones freedom of religion or free speech is not harm when he skip church.

In short, we are searching for excuses to be victims, when in fact, its just whining. Once we conceed the point that prayers are protected religious speech ... atheist wonderkid is simply being a jerk.

We haven't established that yet.

That is interesting, because there ARE mandatory drinking events. I can drink a coke rather than a beer.

Are there? It seems weird that one is forced into attenting drinking events.

I can act as a designated driver. And drinking is merely legal, not exactly enshrined as a right in the US Constitution.

Well that's kinda important isn't it? His enshrined right in the US Constitution is being affected.

And no one, save atheists looking to excuse one of their own self made victims, would consider it 'intelligent' to resign and give up serving your country and your friends .... because they drink?

Well that depends on how much they care about drunkness, and as you pointed out above, unlike the example with drinking, not having to listen to people pray is enshrined as a right in the US Constitution.

And are allowed to make that choice? I should walk around forcing my values on others or quitting? Wonderful choice atheists.

How about you do neither, so that atheistd wouldn't be faced with the choice of having values forced on to them or quitting?

Not only that, but when we force our values on others ... like say prohibition, what happens? What happens when people attempt to force the removal of religion?

People fight back, much like what atheists are doing now.

SO we should, in addition to being basically jerks about our values, ALSO just throw out history and its analysis?

No, the question is why the army wants to do it, and why you support said jerks.

And atheists keep assuring me that its evidence rather than emotion that drives them. I clearly see the opposite.

The evidence says otherwise.

Well, whatever excuse floats your boat.

And it's a great excuse, at least for people who care about freedom.

#1 - He's an atheist, and he not the only one in West Point. There are indeed many atheists in the Military and guess how many are forced to attend church? Right, zero.

Again, I joined the military as an atheist. Guess how many church services I was nevertheless forced to attend? Right, zero. When I did join a church, do you think the Army forced me to attend any particular church? Nope.

So we have adherence to a made up easily falsifiable claim as the basis of your argument.

Again, the Army does a lot of things both right and wrong. Yet the fact that it acknowledges that spirituality is a personal choice and allowed me to take my journey with ZERO interference either as an atheist or as a Christian ... simply put, wonderkid is wrong.

#2 - See above. How do you bring a diverse people together if you ban everyone else's opinions and beliefs ... except obviously yours? Right, you don't.

So we still have atheists wanting to be part of multicultural institutions, but not wanting to be exposed to any other cultures? Because that is actually a form of cohesion?

North Korea it is for you too then?

#3 - I do love the fact that another atheist is blandly claiming the evidence supports their side without actually presenting any, and then making easily falsifiable claims too boot.

It does seem to me like a rather deliberate attempt to be a victim at any cost ... and that is what atheists consider freedom - more power to you.

However, I for one would point out that atheists should lead by example. If they think others should be barred from expressing their religious opinions ... they should lead, and stop the silly resigning from West Point while publically complaining. Perhaps?

[Goat]

However, the school, as a representative of the government, can not promote religion. The students can pray all they want.. the teachers and the school can not get involved in either promoting, or discriminating against it.

The 'prayer' in West point was promoting religious prayer. .. in specifically 'in the name of Jesus'. .. as representing the American government, this is unconstitutional.

So you solution to enabling the expression of protected free speech is to ban it?
[/quote]
And where do I say that?? Who said that students can't discuss religion? Who says that teachers, on their own time, and not acting as representivies of the school can't discuss it?

However, teachers, as representatives of the government, which they are as public school teachers on the job, have to abide by certain rules and regulations. The people in the school, as employees of the government, can not promote religion... or bash it for that matter.

Because what free speech means, especially protected free speech, is that atheists should not have to listen to it if they do not want to.

Both cadets, and school children are captive audiences. It is not the roll of the officers at West point to either promote or discriminate against any religion, or lack there of.

That's the point, now isn't it. These people, in their official position, were promoting evangelistic Christianity..

Well, they hide in a cave - no one is stopping you.

If, however, you want to serve in a highly secular institution that is inclusive of diverse cultures and religious faiths ... you kind of have to figure out how to be part of an inclusive process - rather than demanding that everyone else stop being who they are so you can be who you are.

Now, that's the problem now isn't it.. it wasn't being inclusive of diverse cultures and faiths.. It was inclusive of Evangelistic Christianity,... and not inclusive of the non-religious. It is not inclusive of Muslims, or Jews, or Hindu's, or taoists, or Buddhists..

Well, I recommend North Korea. They are the result of the unilateral authoritarianism that you demand in respect to other cultures in a pluralistic society.

And what is stopping you from heading to North Korea to follow where your ideology leads?

Oh boy, isn't this a mature 'if you don't like it , go home' attitude'. Sort of like 'If they don't like sitting in the back of the bus, they can go home to Africa' type of attitude.

Well, maybe it has something to do with atheism really being about attacking other people based on their faith rather than any deeply felt intellectual process leading to a lifestyle of conviction, duty, and dedication to the 'truth'?

Instead, we are promoting resigning from a pluralistic society because atheist wonderkid unilaterally deems the inclusive practices to be ... bigotry?

Yeah, atheism?

Perhaps it not not about atheism attack other people based on their faith, but not being treated as second class citizens, and having religious shoved down their throats by overzealous bigots?

[Zetesis Apistia]

However, the mandatory school prayer was the result of the supreme court ruling in 1962.. ..can you point to her involvement in that?

Murray versus Curlett

Yet, the first one was 1961.. Engel v. Vitale.

And the supreme court ruling in 1962,, while expanding the original ruling, also dealt with some religious people, and combined that case, and Abington School District v. Schempp, which was a religious person complaining about specific sections of leviticus being read.

When you say religious people...... Well lets just say that a converse salesman that promotes nike is no true converse salesman.

[JoeyKnothead]

How free is speech when folks are forced to listen to it?

"Oh, it's still free, only you gotta pay to not listen to it!"

[Zetesis Apistia]

How free is speech when folks are forced to listen to it?

"Oh, it's still free, only you gotta pay to not listen to it!"

How can you claim to be open minded if you refuse to listen to those who oppose you?

[Bust Nak]

#1 - He's an atheist, and he not the only one in West Point. There are indeed many atheists in the Military and guess how many are forced to attend church? Right, zero.

Ok, now guess how many are forced to attend chaplain led Christian prayer session.

Again, I joined the military as an atheist. Guess how many church services I was nevertheless forced to attend? Right, zero. When I did join a church, do you think the Army forced me to attend any particular church? Nope.

That's nice. I guess the army is not totally, but merely somewhat hypocritical. Tell me, how many times were you denied the chance to sit out a chaplain led Christian prayer? Or did it not occur to you that you have to right enshrined in US Constitution to sit out such sessions?

So we have adherence to a made up easily falsifiable claim as the basis of your argument.

More likely you missed my the point.

Again, the Army does a lot of things both right and wrong. Yet the fact that it acknowledges that spirituality is a personal choice and allowed me to take my journey with ZERO interference either as an atheist or as a Christian ... simply put, wonderkid is wrong.

Oh? Mandatory Christian prayer sessions doesn't really strike me as zero interference. Nor does on duty officiers tell their charge that Christianity makes one better, sound like zero interference.

#2 - See above. How do you bring a diverse people together if you ban everyone else's opinions and beliefs ... except obviously yours? Right, you don't.

Of course, but that doesn't explain why you are defending the army banning atheists' opinion and beliefs? It has been subjecting soldiers to Christian prayer sessions against their will.

So we still have atheists wanting to be part of multicultural institutions, but not wanting to be exposed to any other cultures? Because that is actually a form of cohesion?

Forcing people into other cultures is more harmful to cohesion.

North Korea it is for you too then?

Nah, too much banning of opinions and beliefs over there.

#3 - I do love the fact that another atheist is blandly claiming the evidence supports their side without actually presenting any, and then making easily falsifiable claims too boot.

The fact is the Army is denying his right to religious freedom. The falisified claim is that he is denying anyone's right to their religious freedom in his attempt to exercise said right.

The difference in stopping a prayer session from being manditory, and stopping a prayer session is huge, hence it is very easy to distinguish between the two.

It does seem to me like a rather deliberate attempt to be a victim at any cost ... and that is what atheists consider freedom - more power to you.

From my side it seem like a rather deliberate attempt to misrepresent what the victim is saying because it is just that hard to get the two mixed up.

However, I for one would point out that atheists should lead by example. If they think others should be barred from expressing their religious opinions ... they should lead, and stop the silly resigning from West Point while publically complaining. Perhaps?

Sure, IF atheists think others should be barred from from expressing their religious opinions. But that's irrelevant since we don't think that. (Well most of us don't anyway, you can argue with North Koreans if you can find one.)

We do however think religious opinions should not be forced onto others, and as such would not prevent others from praying.

PS I still want to know about manditory drinking sessions in the army.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 57:

How can you claim to be open minded if you refuse to listen to those who oppose you?

An open mind need not accept a demand that folks with goofy beliefs be allowed to waste my time carrying on about 'em.

[rosey]

To me, discrimination, bigotry, etc, has always been around, and always will be. It comes from all sides, Christian, Atheist, Pagan, New Age, etc, and does not necessarily reveal or affect the truth or falsity of a claim. None of the above will ever disappear until freewill has been erased and no one has any opinions of their own. That's life. Get over it.