Atheists are 'discriminated against'?

[stubbornone]

Well, here is the story:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/blake-pag ... 32279.html

"While there are certainly numerous problems with the developmental program at West Point and all service academies, the tipping point of my decision to resign was the realization that countless officers here and throughout the military are guilty of blatantly violating the oaths they swore to defend the Constitution. These men and women are criminals, complicit in light of day defiance of the Uniform Code of Military Justice through unconstitutional proselytism, discrimination against the non-religious and establishing formal policies to reward, encourage and even at times require sectarian religious participation."

Yep, in this 'long gray line' of hypocrisy and discrimination, our hero above lists ... not a single instance of this supposedly pervasive trend in the military. So, here are some things that our oppressed atheists have to ... painfully tolerate.

#1 - Prayers, those who are religious, and there are many different denominations BTW, will pray. Those who wish to pray collectively are allowed to do - freedom of religious expression is a protected right. Being unconscionably offended by someone else's expression of religion is ... aside from making you a total wanker ... also not about the US Constitution.

#2 - No doubt, just like our hero here, religious groups are afforded space and time to pray and organize, as does the author of this article. Somehow though, allowing others to practice their faith is intolerable to him? But his .. er, religious? views must be afforded sole consideration?

Beyond that, the military really doesn't give a hoop about your faith. It encourages you to have one, in anything, but only because it helps, scientifically proven, to deal with the rigors of combat. You want to be Pagan? More power too ya. You want to be atheist? Great, but we'd encourage you to explore secular humanism, if only to have a non-affiliative source that will help you deal with the emotional aspect of combat.

Somehow, this approach is ... intolerable to young atheists? Science and the effects of combat on human beings are to be rejected in favor of hyperbole?

Well, I for one hope the Army recoups its entire investment in this gravely discriminated dork - who is SO discriminated against that they allowed him into the school, trained him, educated him, allowed him to freely practice and organize his faith - indeed even be a student leader ... and this was intolerable disrespect because the Army didn't shut down everyone else's faith? Prevent the criticism of his precious choices?

Not only will this be an expensive life lesson, but when young atheist super hero joins the actual work force, he'll quickly discover that no employer anywhere appreciates a young crusader who pisses off all their religious clients. What then atheist hero?

The Army is there to win wars. Businesses are there to make money. This guy? Has a lot to learn about how the world works and the costs of excessive pride and rationalization.

I for one advocate that we let him learn that lesson. The last thing our boys need in combat is some wanker talking about how much worse he has it than everyone else around him.

[Danmark]

Technically 100% I suppose I agree with you about Chaplains and their place in the military if the Chaplin were to represent Christianity or any other faith in his capacity as a military chaplain; however, a chaplain in the military is supposed to minister to the spiritual, ethical, family and personal needs of the troops. He is not supposed to preach his particular faith to his captive audience. Making this point clear would have strengthened the OP's case. Whether in the military or a State prison, the chaplain's role is to strengthen the morale of the troops, not preach any particular dogma or doctrine. When they stick to that role, there is no Constitutional issue. Atheists have 'spiritual' and emotional needs too. And the Chaplain should minister to them as well. A soldier must have loyalty and fight for his brothers and sisters in his fighting unit, and it is usually that loyalty, rather than to god and country, that is uppermost in his thinking in combat, not some bit of precious doctrine.

If the Chaplin's particular faith is, say, Roman Catholic, he should be candid with the troops about that, but he should take special care to let the outliers in his 'congregation' know that he is there for them just as much as for Catholics. So he should take extra care when talking to evangelicals, muslims, Jews and Mormons to communicate that his door is wide open to them as well. In fact it is a special opportunity he has, because the outliers may have their prejudices broken when they have a warm friendly conversation with chaplain they were prepared to reject.

In other words the Chaplain should reflect the opposite of what this message sends:
...expressing extreme displeasure with a coward who has turned himself in a victim [sic] and threatened one of the pillars of our military system with a whiny, totally unsupported accusation? You will forgive me for thinking that such cowardice deserves to be called out ... particularly when it is done public ally ...[sic]

I understand the points you make and in part I agree with you that Chaplins as psychotherapists is a good idea. BUT, why don't they (military) hire professional psychotherapists indead?

Prob'ly just a matter of money. If a guy needs a psychotherapist it's probly too late. My guess is the young kids just need a friend they can talk to in confidence. Some of the best clinicians don't have any fancy degrees.

I looked this up on Wikipedia. Throws more cold water on the OP rant:

A military chaplain ministers to military personnel and, in most cases, their families and civilians working for the military. In some cases they will also work with local civilians within a military area of operations.
Although the term chaplain originally had Christian roots, it is generally used today in military organizations to describe all professionals specially trained to serve any spiritual need, regardless of religious affiliation. In addition to offering pastoral care to individuals, and supporting their religious rights and needs, military chaplains may also advise the executive on issues of religion, ethics, morale and morals. They may also liaise with local religious leaders in an effort to understand the role of religion as both a factor in hostility and war and as a force for reconciliation and peace.
Military chaplains normally represent a religion or faith group but work with military personnel of all faiths and none. Some countries, like the Netherlands, also employ humanist chaplains who offer a non-religious approach to chaplain support. Groups such as the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers, support the idea of such chaplains.

[stubbornone]

Technically 100% I suppose I agree with you about Chaplains and their place in the military if the Chaplin were to represent Christianity or any other faith in his capacity as a military chaplain; however, a chaplain in the military is supposed to minister to the spiritual, ethical, family and personal needs of the troops. He is not supposed to preach his particular faith to his captive audience. Making this point clear would have strengthened the OP's case. Whether in the military or a State prison, the chaplain's role is to strengthen the morale of the troops, not preach any particular dogma or doctrine. When they stick to that role, there is no Constitutional issue. Atheists have 'spiritual' and emotional needs too. And the Chaplain should minister to them as well. A soldier must have loyalty and fight for his brothers and sisters in his fighting unit, and it is usually that loyalty, rather than to god and country, that is uppermost in his thinking in combat, not some bit of precious doctrine.

If the Chaplin's particular faith is, say, Roman Catholic, he should be candid with the troops about that, but he should take special care to let the outliers in his 'congregation' know that he is there for them just as much as for Catholics. So he should take extra care when talking to evangelicals, muslims, Jews and Mormons to communicate that his door is wide open to them as well. In fact it is a special opportunity he has, because the outliers may have their prejudices broken when they have a warm friendly conversation with chaplain they were prepared to reject.

In other words the Chaplain should reflect the opposite of what this message sends:
...expressing extreme displeasure with a coward who has turned himself in a victim [sic] and threatened one of the pillars of our military system with a whiny, totally unsupported accusation? You will forgive me for thinking that such cowardice deserves to be called out ... particularly when it is done public ally ...[sic]

I understand the points you make and in part I agree with you that Chaplins as psychotherapists is a good idea. BUT, why don't they (military) hire professional psychotherapists indead?

Prob'ly just a matter of money. If a guy needs a psychotherapist it's probly too late. My guess is the young kids just need a friend they can talk to in confidence. Some of the best clinicians don't have any fancy degrees.

I looked this up on Wikipedia. Throws more cold water on the OP rant:

A military chaplain ministers to military personnel and, in most cases, their families and civilians working for the military. In some cases they will also work with local civilians within a military area of operations.
Although the term chaplain originally had Christian roots, it is generally used today in military organizations to describe all professionals specially trained to serve any spiritual need, regardless of religious affiliation. In addition to offering pastoral care to individuals, and supporting their religious rights and needs, military chaplains may also advise the executive on issues of religion, ethics, morale and morals. They may also liaise with local religious leaders in an effort to understand the role of religion as both a factor in hostility and war and as a force for reconciliation and peace.
Military chaplains normally represent a religion or faith group but work with military personnel of all faiths and none. Some countries, like the Netherlands, also employ humanist chaplains who offer a non-religious approach to chaplain support. Groups such as the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers, support the idea of such chaplains.

That is interesting, because I remember this ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/27/us/27 ... d=all&_r=0

Atheists Seek Chaplain Role in the Military

"FAYETTEVILLE, N.C. — In the military, there are more than 3,000 chaplains who minister to the spiritual and emotional needs of active duty troops, regardless of their faiths. The vast majority are Christians, a few are Jews or Muslims, one is a Buddhist. A Hindu, possibly even a Wiccan may join their ranks soon.

But an atheist?

Strange as it sounds, groups representing atheists and secular humanists are pushing for the appointment of one of their own to the chaplaincy, hoping to give voice to what they say is a large — and largely underground — population of nonbelievers in the military.

Joining the chaplain corps is part of a broader campaign by atheists to win official acceptance in the military. Such recognition would make it easier for them to raise money and meet on military bases. It would help ensure that chaplains, religious or atheist, would distribute their literature, advertise their events and advocate for them with commanders.


Now aside from the fact that news stories like this make atheism look like little more than serial curmudgeon complaining, The simple fact of the matter is that Chaplains fill a roll.

Once again, instead of thinking only about yourselves and YOUR views of religion, please tell me, in a large organization that deploys into combat, you are going to meet the PROTECTED RELIGIOUS NEEDS of your Soldiers?

Right, by sending ministers forward with the troops whose services can be used by all ... or not.

Next, how much does a Chaplain with training in counseling and certification cost? How much does a psycho therapist cost? Given that there are not enough of the later, what method would you put in place to screen people who need to be sent back for therapy and which are enduring the rigors off combat well enough to continue? RIght ANOTHER ROLE OF THE CHAPLAIN!

Now, see if you atheists can explain why you think Chaplains are fine for you, and your specific religious needs (when you have none), but Chaplains for everyone else who DO have religious needs are ... bigotry?

I am detecting a few trends.

#1 - As per the OP, it seems that modern atheists will go out of their way to make themselves victims. Single words are imbued with all manner of meaning and implied threats to atheism. My religion is apparently like being forced to watch gay sex, etc. etc. And of course, why its a good idea to resign from West POint doesn't get mentioned at all because most atheists would rather complain about the lack of civility in criticizing a kids acting dumb and hiding behind the excuses of atheism, rather than actually defend the kids antics.

#2 - It seems most atheists are struggling with the idea that, although they are entitled to their opinion, so too are others. The idea that OTHER PEOPLE'S religious rights are protected seems to rankle atheists to end.

Once again, if this is the case atheists, if the idea of a secular, inclusive institution allowing others to express their religious needs, or provising forward deployed ministers to provide religious services - something we KNOW helps our Soldiers endure combat - you are welcome to follow your principles and head to North Korea where these things that oppress you to no end are eliminated.

So get cracking. Either move to North Korea, or explain to a former atheist why atheists are discriminated in the military because I now pray, and Chaplains are there to use or not use.

The Army also Military Family Life Counselors, you are free to use or not use them as well. Do those ALSO make atheists victims?

[100%atheist]

Next, how much does a Chaplain with training in counseling and certification cost? How much does a psycho therapist cost?

Are you suggesting that the richest country in the world is too poor to provide its bravest army in the world with the best possible support? Even $700B isn't enough for that???

Now, see if you atheists can explain why you think Chaplains are fine for you, and your specific religious needs (when you have none), but Chaplains for everyone else who DO have religious needs are ... bigotry?

I wonder ... why are Christians the smartest people on Earth (after Muslims and Jews, of course) so they know exactly what other people need?

#1 - As per the OP, it seems that modern atheists will go out of their way to make themselves victims. Single words are imbued with all manner of meaning and implied threats to atheism.

Could it ever cross your mind that atheists indeed can be victims?

My religion is apparently like being forced to watch gay sex, etc. etc.

When you finish watching tell us about your experience.

And of course, why its a good idea to resign from West POint doesn't get mentioned at all because most atheists would rather complain about the lack of civility in criticizing a kids acting dumb and hiding behind the excuses of atheism, rather than actually defend the kids antics.

I lost you here completely. What are you talking about?

#2 - It seems most atheists are struggling with the idea that, although they are entitled to their opinion, so too are others. The idea that OTHER PEOPLE'S religious rights are protected seems to rankle atheists to end.

You have a rather rich imagination.

Once again, if this is the case atheists, if the idea of a secular, inclusive institution allowing others to express their religious needs, or provising forward deployed ministers to provide religious services - something we KNOW helps our Soldiers endure combat - you are welcome to follow your principles and head to North Korea where these things that oppress you to no end are eliminated.

Why do you think that others are inferior to you?

So get cracking. Either move to North Korea, or explain to a former atheist why atheists are discriminated in the military because I now pray, and Chaplains are there to use or not use.

The Army also Military Family Life Counselors, you are free to use or not use them as well. Do those ALSO make atheists victims?

You know, I even can't explain you why does the US need an army.

[Goat]

I understand the points you make and in part I agree with you that Chaplins as psychotherapists is a good idea. BUT, why don't they (military) hire professional psychotherapists indead?

Because a large number of the troops ARE religious , and find better comfort in a religious figure... and it is for their needs.

[Danmark]

That is interesting, because I remember this ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/27/us/27 ... d=all&_r=0

Atheists Seek Chaplain Role in the Military

"FAYETTEVILLE, N.C. — In the military, there are more than 3,000 chaplains who minister to the spiritual and emotional needs of active duty troops, regardless of their faiths. The vast majority are Christians, a few are Jews or Muslims, one is a Buddhist. A Hindu, possibly even a Wiccan may join their ranks soon.

But an atheist?

Strange as it sounds, groups representing atheists and secular humanists are pushing for the appointment of one of their own to the chaplaincy, hoping to give voice to what they say is a large — and largely underground — population of nonbelievers in the military.

Joining the chaplain corps is part of a broader campaign by atheists to win official acceptance in the military. Such recognition would make it easier for them to raise money and meet on military bases. It would help ensure that chaplains, religious or atheist, would distribute their literature, advertise their events and advocate for them with commanders.


Now aside from the fact that news stories like this make atheism look like little more than serial curmudgeon complaining, The simple fact of the matter is that Chaplains fill a roll.

Once again, instead of thinking only about yourselves and YOUR views of religion, please tell me, in a large organization that deploys into combat, you are going to meet the PROTECTED RELIGIOUS NEEDS of your Soldiers?

Right, by sending ministers forward with the troops whose services can be used by all ... or not.

Next, how much does a Chaplain with training in counseling and certification cost? How much does a psycho therapist cost? Given that there are not enough of the later, what method would you put in place to screen people who need to be sent back for therapy and which are enduring the rigors off combat well enough to continue? RIght ANOTHER ROLE OF THE CHAPLAIN!

Now, see if you atheists can explain why you think Chaplains are fine for you, and your specific religious needs (when you have none), but Chaplains for everyone else who DO have religious needs are ... bigotry?

I am detecting a few trends.

#1 - As per the OP, it seems that modern atheists will go out of their way to make themselves victims. Single words are imbued with all manner of meaning and implied threats to atheism. My religion is apparently like being forced to watch gay sex, etc. etc. And of course, why its a good idea to resign from West POint doesn't get mentioned at all because most atheists would rather complain about the lack of civility in criticizing a kids acting dumb and hiding behind the excuses of atheism, rather than actually defend the kids antics.

#2 - It seems most atheists are struggling with the idea that, although they are entitled to their opinion, so too are others. The idea that OTHER PEOPLE'S religious rights are protected seems to rankle atheists to end.

Once again, if this is the case atheists, if the idea of a secular, inclusive institution allowing others to express their religious needs, or provising forward deployed ministers to provide religious services - something we KNOW helps our Soldiers endure combat - you are welcome to follow your principles and head to North Korea where these things that oppress you to no end are eliminated.

So get cracking. Either move to North Korea, or explain to a former atheist why atheists are discriminated in the military because I now pray, and Chaplains are there to use or not use.

The Army also Military Family Life Counselors, you are free to use or not use them as well. Do those ALSO make atheists victims?

Stubb, thanks for the URL to the article. Interesting. I take note of this statement toward the end of the piece:
Sergeant Griffith said he believed there were already atheist chaplains in the military — just not open ones. That in fact has been my experience in talking to Chaplains and other members of the clergy who are professors at Universities. Many are in fact agnostics or atheists, but they don't eagerly give out that information to their respective congregations or students.

This is one example of why I take issue with your broad sweeping statements about atheists, as if we are members of a tight fraternity with secret handshakes and all walk in lockstep, promoting a lascivious lifestyle,* insisting that "everyone like being forced to watch gay sex, etc. [sic]" In my work I frequently deal with people who are in pain due to a criminal lifestyle. They frequently talk about getting back with the lord, and reading their bibles. I let them know that it is good to have values that transcend themselves; that if they are depressed, one way to climb back to sanity and happiness is to help others worse off than themselves. Half the time when I share with them that I am an atheist, but believe there is much truth and wisdom in the bible, they don't really belief that stuff either. Then we can have a real conversation about turning their lives around effectively, not by some primitive notion of religion where the treat the Bible as a totem.

The tenor of your posts on this subforum suggests you have a well defined ugly stereotype of atheists, one I seldom see in atheists I talk to. You talk about atheists loving to 'play the victim.' I simply do not see this. Your data base is rather small - this one fellow who left the Point. Rather the tone of all your posts on this subject seems to be one where you are loudly playing 'the victim' yourself, over burdened by this dangerous, 'whining' atheist minority.

One thing you said that I take very seriously is that if atheists want to complain about a lack of atheist chaplains, they should be ready to step up themselves and play that role if qualified. I know some who do counsel soldiers and people incarcerated. They tell me they feel great personal satisfaction in counseling these folk. In a way the atheist chaplain or lawyer has a distinct advantage because it is easy for the subject to see that the atheist has no religious axe to grind, no doctrinaire sword to wield.


_________________________________
*Joseph Smith and Brigham Young come to mind; with close to 100 wives between them; Smith even wrote 'divine' scripture to justify his unquenchable lust. Of course when an atheist has that many women he is an ungodly sinner trying to promote his evil life style on the innocent. When Smith does the same thing, it is to glorify god and get a view lot near Kolob.

[stubbornone]

Are you suggesting that the richest country in the world is too poor to provide its bravest army in the world with the best possible support? Even $700B isn't enough for that???

What I am claiming is that you clearly do not understand what $700 billion buys, and simple economics.

How many carrier strike groups should we have? Fighter Jets? Tanks? And the massive logistics system support AND project that force anywhere in the world? That is cheap, eh?

So, even when you have a large budget, you cannot waste money. Chaplains NOT only fill the religious needs of Soldiers, they fill the secular counseling role you demand. They cannot discriminate based on faith choice of Soldiers. Additionally, ONLY the Chaplain Corp has a fully non-attributive policy, which means if you blow off steam to a psychotherapist, one who is unfamiliar with unit dynamics, you can find yourself in hot water due to ... mandatory reporting requirements. Its the protected RELIGIOUS aspect of the Chaplain Corps that gives our Soldiers that confidentiality. All other aspects are subject to Commander needs and desires.

And we get this cheaper, fulling more roles, without discrimination ... and atheists are still finding ways to whine and disagree rather than conceding that they, with no military or battlefield experience, may not be the best to pass judgement on what is and is not necessary ... particularly when its appears to be a emotional rather than objective issue.

I wonder ... why are Christians the smartest people on Earth (after Muslims and Jews, of course) so they know exactly what other people need?

See above, and grand desseminator of budgetary guidance to the military. Thou shalt know more than the service chiefs, Congress, and the JCS. Funny how quickly that standard changes?

Could it ever cross your mind that atheists indeed can be victims?

Yep, it corssed my mind, but when you call yourself a victim because ... gay porn, conspiracy theories involving assassination of atheists, and ... gasp! ... havinhg to listen to someone else's opinion in a pluralistic setting ...

I see simple whining and those who excuse it.

When you finish watching tell us about your experience.

So, in short, when an atheist dumped it out and I rejected it, it was uncivil to notice it. When I remind atheists of this, now its my fault?

Once again, disagreement for disagreements sake.

So, as you are clearly not interested in an actual discussion, I guess I will end here.

Basically, 100% atheists said, "The opposite of everything you said!" Well, that is indeed the problem with modern atheism.

[stubbornone]

That is interesting, because I remember this ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/27/us/27 ... d=all&_r=0

Atheists Seek Chaplain Role in the Military

"FAYETTEVILLE, N.C. — In the military, there are more than 3,000 chaplains who minister to the spiritual and emotional needs of active duty troops, regardless of their faiths. The vast majority are Christians, a few are Jews or Muslims, one is a Buddhist. A Hindu, possibly even a Wiccan may join their ranks soon.

But an atheist?

Strange as it sounds, groups representing atheists and secular humanists are pushing for the appointment of one of their own to the chaplaincy, hoping to give voice to what they say is a large — and largely underground — population of nonbelievers in the military.

Joining the chaplain corps is part of a broader campaign by atheists to win official acceptance in the military. Such recognition would make it easier for them to raise money and meet on military bases. It would help ensure that chaplains, religious or atheist, would distribute their literature, advertise their events and advocate for them with commanders.


Now aside from the fact that news stories like this make atheism look like little more than serial curmudgeon complaining, The simple fact of the matter is that Chaplains fill a roll.

Once again, instead of thinking only about yourselves and YOUR views of religion, please tell me, in a large organization that deploys into combat, you are going to meet the PROTECTED RELIGIOUS NEEDS of your Soldiers?

Right, by sending ministers forward with the troops whose services can be used by all ... or not.

Next, how much does a Chaplain with training in counseling and certification cost? How much does a psycho therapist cost? Given that there are not enough of the later, what method would you put in place to screen people who need to be sent back for therapy and which are enduring the rigors off combat well enough to continue? RIght ANOTHER ROLE OF THE CHAPLAIN!

Now, see if you atheists can explain why you think Chaplains are fine for you, and your specific religious needs (when you have none), but Chaplains for everyone else who DO have religious needs are ... bigotry?

I am detecting a few trends.

#1 - As per the OP, it seems that modern atheists will go out of their way to make themselves victims. Single words are imbued with all manner of meaning and implied threats to atheism. My religion is apparently like being forced to watch gay sex, etc. etc. And of course, why its a good idea to resign from West POint doesn't get mentioned at all because most atheists would rather complain about the lack of civility in criticizing a kids acting dumb and hiding behind the excuses of atheism, rather than actually defend the kids antics.

#2 - It seems most atheists are struggling with the idea that, although they are entitled to their opinion, so too are others. The idea that OTHER PEOPLE'S religious rights are protected seems to rankle atheists to end.

Once again, if this is the case atheists, if the idea of a secular, inclusive institution allowing others to express their religious needs, or provising forward deployed ministers to provide religious services - something we KNOW helps our Soldiers endure combat - you are welcome to follow your principles and head to North Korea where these things that oppress you to no end are eliminated.

So get cracking. Either move to North Korea, or explain to a former atheist why atheists are discriminated in the military because I now pray, and Chaplains are there to use or not use.

The Army also Military Family Life Counselors, you are free to use or not use them as well. Do those ALSO make atheists victims?

Stubb, thanks for the URL to the article. Interesting. I take note of this statement toward the end of the piece:
Sergeant Griffith said he believed there were already atheist chaplains in the military — just not open ones. That in fact has been my experience in talking to Chaplains and other members of the clergy who are professors at Universities. Many are in fact agnostics or atheists, but they don't eagerly give out that information to their respective congregations or students.

This is one example of why I take issue with your broad sweeping statements about atheists, as if we are members of a tight fraternity with secret handshakes and all walk in lockstep, promoting a lascivious lifestyle,* insisting that "everyone like being forced to watch gay sex, etc. [sic]" In my work I frequently deal with people who are in pain due to a criminal lifestyle. They frequently talk about getting back with the lord, and reading their bibles. I let them know that it is good to have values that transcend themselves; that if they are depressed, one way to climb back to sanity and happiness is to help others worse off than themselves. Half the time when I share with them that I am an atheist, but believe there is much truth and wisdom in the bible, they don't really belief that stuff either. Then we can have a real conversation about turning their lives around effectively, not by some primitive notion of religion where the treat the Bible as a totem.

The tenor of your posts on this subforum suggests you have a well defined ugly stereotype of atheists, one I seldom see in atheists I talk to. You talk about atheists loving to 'play the victim.' I simply do not see this. Your data base is rather small - this one fellow who left the Point. Rather the tone of all your posts on this subject seems to be one where you are loudly playing 'the victim' yourself, over burdened by this dangerous, 'whining' atheist minority.

One thing you said that I take very seriously is that if atheists want to complain about a lack of atheist chaplains, they should be ready to step up themselves and play that role if qualified. I know some who do counsel soldiers and people incarcerated. They tell me they feel great personal satisfaction in counseling these folk. In a way the atheist chaplain or lawyer has a distinct advantage because it is easy for the subject to see that the atheist has no religious axe to grind, no doctrinaire sword to wield.


_________________________________
*Joseph Smith and Brigham Young come to mind; with close to 100 wives between them; Smith even wrote 'divine' scripture to justify his unquenchable lust. Of course when an atheist has that many women he is an ungodly sinner trying to promote his evil life style on the innocent. When Smith does the same thing, it is to glorify god and get a view lot near Kolob.

There are a couple of issues here.

#1 - broad sweeping statements and atheists apparently taking issue with them? I very rarely see atheists taking issue with te broad sweeping generalizations in modern atheism - broad sweeping generalizations that are used with great fan fare by the current scions of atheism. These generalizations pop up in increasingly public issues such as the San Diego Christmas display hijack, wherein faith is basically ridiculed and reduced to an illogical base insult. That is deemed fine a defense of liberty rather than simply rude.

Indeed, such criticism is quite common of atheists.

"Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology. Card-carrying rationalists like Dawkins, who is the nearest thing to a professional atheist we have had since Bertrand Russell, are in one sense the least well-equipped to understand what they castigate, since they don’t believe there is anything there to be understood, or at least anything worth understanding. This is why they invariably come up with vulgar caricatures of religious faith that would make a first-year theology student wince. The more they detest religion, the more ill-informed their criticisms of it tend to be. If they were asked to pass judgment on phenomenology or the geopolitics of South Asia, they would no doubt bone up on the question as assiduously as they could. When it comes to theology, however, any shoddy old travesty will pass muster. These days, theology is the queen of the sciences in a rather less august sense of the word than in its medieval heyday."

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n20/terry-eagl ... ispunching

I find much of the modern literature of atheism to be grotesquely illogical and laced with animosity. And if it confined itself to merely publishing illogical little rants like Dawkins ... genetic argumentation for ethics that relies on observed behavior rather than genetic evidence - that would be fine.

But it isn't staying there. It s a bunch of public law suits seeking to block the expression of other religions. It atheists such as Harris reducing Islam to a stupid red herring, and then advocating for a war whose religious and cultural undertones he neither understands nor wishes too - and guys like me get to fix it while guys like tell us our mastery of religion is pointless and making it worse. Yet worse is books, and increasingly common propaganda from the atheist community about how violent or religion is using ... really bad history and sweeping generalizations to demonize religion. Rather than be upset about these generalizations ... atheists by in large laud them as intellectual tours de force.

What do atheists expect? When your entire religious view is based on deliberate inaccuracies of other people's faith, do you think they will simply sit there in indefinitely and take it?

#2 - Atheist boy hit on the other issue. Not only are our faiths publically being attacked by atheists propaganda machines, but the places where atheists push are increasingly ... the military. Atheist boy is attacking the religious institutions of the military in a basely hypocritical manner. He ignores the extra treatment and favors that he gets, the time to organize, to spread his doctrine, all while decrying the opposite and equal treatment in religious people as unconscionable. Once again, if this is one mislead kid, no worries - he's an idiot who made a very bad choice. Yet that is not what happens when dealing with the atheist community.

a. Not a single atheists has acknowledged that atheist boys resignation is a bad idea. Not one. And we all know that resigning when challenged is a great way to overcome discrimination?

b. Instead, the atheist community appears to rally around his emotional plea. As yet, I cannot find an atheist who will actually describe the substance of what would drive a young atheists to feel this way - particularly when, in a martial sense, you blame us for everything martial, and yet here you are demanding we include you at the expense of our own freedom????

And how much fun is it for guys that remain in the military to have to deal with a small minority of our troops whose complaints appear to be beyond reason, and who readily resort to outside influence and interference? All of it apparently beyond reasoning with and apparently more in the know than we are about our own profession? If you think that is harsh, where is the atheist lecture of this kids behavioral issues?

Do you think this is isolated in the military?

http://archive.truthout.org/troops-puni ... ncert62504

Well, there is another example. A Christian Group came, and the Army accommodated them and allowed Soldiers the opportunity to attend. Those that did not wish to attend are not simply excused from the duty day, and atheists complained about that 'punishment' because they followed their conscious?

And what happens when the tables are reversed? When we have the Rock Beyond Belief Concert, did you see any press coverage of the 'punished' Christian Soldiers who refused to attend but where not excused from duty to do so? Did the military appreciate having the same E-5 (a junior Sergeant) first complain about the Army not doing everything he wanted, only to have the Army sit down and walk him through the funding, organizing, scheduling, and logistics process for a concert? All of which was forgotten about in the atheist coverage of the Rock Beyond Belief concert and the ease with which atheists, who continue to call us war mongers with one hand, turn around and scream discrimination with the other?

Atheists decrying religious symbolism that honors our war dead, are demanding their own war memorials ... to honor the atheists who have always been there right beside the warmongering religious people they hate and routinely deride?

Now you complain about Chaplains. And we see the same problem again. Most atheists are unfamiliar with the process and requirements, and the HIGHLY secular role that Chaplains fill. Yet we have atheists both screaming about them and how bigoted they are ... even as they demand their own ... for their unique spiritual needs, needs they cannot spell out ... but which policy makers are supposed to budget, and thus quantify and qualify to justify the outlay ... and they cannot. We are apparently just supposed to create superfluous positions to shut you up?

Worse, in the secular but VERY pluralistic community, we have the reality of what we do and which every atheists ignores: combat. Combat does not effect all Soldiers equally, some are better prepared for it than others. An example.

After the initial invasion of Iraq, I had a young Soldier assigned to my outfit. In Iraq, he participated in very intense combat. The story he shared with me was that an Iraqi Soldier burst around a corner intent on killing him. His buddy shot the Iraqi Soldier at point blank range, literally through his front site post. Anyone familiar with physics knows that a one ounce bullet striking 200 lbs body in full forward momentum is not going to stop that body like its hit a wall. The body continued into this young Soldier, and the Iraqi Soldier bled to death literally right there on top of him. He has the sounds of a man, a human being, dying along with the din of combat, and when he was pulled from under the body, he spent the next several days covered in the blood of another man, while fighting and killing for several more days before he got a chance to clean himself up appropriately.

He was not prepared for that before he got there. The result was a kid with legitimate PTSD, shell shock. Loud noises sent him straight to the ground, and he would grab anything around him to try to defend himself. Very often his fellow Soldiers had to hold him down, while the panic past to keep him from hurting others. He needed help. Soldiers who get to that state are incredibly vulnerable to depression, addiction, alcohol abuse, drug abuse, and often suicide.

Now what atheists would you do to help that Soldier? Would you give him every counselor you could find? If he was religious, would you invite his minister in to share and help? What would you take off the table to help that Soldier?

So when I see atheists, like the one from the OP and all his supporters on this site, who call the Army's attempts to align Soldiers and their religious faith without judgement ... discrimination? When I see them call Chaplains who help heel these thing a sign of bigotry and by gone stupidity? When I see atheists bristle at the idea that arming our Soldiers with knowledge of faith so that they can help the Soldiers like the one above?

I see the most selfish individuals I have ever come across.

And as stories like the OP stack up, as the laws suits, increasingly lost:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/11 ... world-war/

Well atheists, at what point do you think organizations trying to include you as equals will simply write you off as never satisfied prima donna and know it alls?

The boy who cried wolf is a apt allegory for the atheist who screams discrimination.

[otseng]

and this fool cannot be any wronger

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[stubbornone]

Christians apparently have to put up with whiney atheists asking us stupid, highly bigoted questions like: IS THERE ANYTHING MORE EVIL THAN YOUR GOD!!!

We have to deal with every religion saying that their god is the source of absolute morality and we are immoral. So yes we point out his immorality.

Why would you care if you don't believe in the God? WHo cares?

We have to deal with your rejection of everything we stand for, but we rebut ... rather than claim discrimination.

Why is atheism different?

[Goat]

Christians apparently have to put up with whiney atheists asking us stupid, highly bigoted questions like: IS THERE ANYTHING MORE EVIL THAN YOUR GOD!!!

We have to deal with every religion saying that their god is the source of absolute morality and we are immoral. So yes we point out his immorality.

Why would you care if you don't believe in the God? WHo cares?

We have to deal with your rejection of everything we stand for, but we rebut ... rather than claim discrimination.

Why is atheism different?

Since when does not believing in a deity be a 'Rejection of everything you stand for'? That statement is either building up a big straw man against atheists, or being overly self absorbed...... although those two options are not mutually exclusive.