Are Atheists Potentially Morally Superior to Theists?

[Danmark]

The proposition is that atheists have the potential of being morally superior to theists because to the extent the atheist does good works, he does them because he wants to, because she thinks it right. Whereas the theist acts out of religious necessity or compulsion; the threat of hell or deprivation of heaven.

[Divine Insight]

I hate no one....I believe the so called crap you don't want to believe in. Now if Lord Jesus is who he says he is....Then you going against him, is your problem.

It's impossible to go against Jesus. Everything we have about this man named Jesus is hearsay rumors. All I'm doing is rejecting many of these rumors, which are often quite self-conflicting to boot.

I am no judge.

But you just did pass judgment on me as "Going against Jesus".

So you are judging the actions other people.

I personally take this as nothing more than secret desire on your part to see Jesus condemn me.

You want to roll the dice with your life go right ahead. Even Mohammed made sure he put Lord Jesus in his notes.....He wasn't stupid. Even he knew what Lord Jesus did.

Mohammed renounced Jesus as LORD.

Besides, here you go with fear-factor again. You're trying to make Jesus out as a horrible monster who will hurt people who don't acknowledge him.

I have no problem with Jesus, Tex.

I'll answer to Jesus any day.

It's Christians like you who would condemn me in Jesus' name.

I have no fear of your desire to condemn me.

Besides if Jesus truly is the all-righteous benevolent loving God that the Christians claim, then I'm sure he would fully understand why I don't believe the hearsay rumors about him.

All you're doing is suggesting to me that Jesus is either stupid or hateful.

Evidently I think more highly of Jesus than you do.

Where's the LOVE?

Why can Christians LOVE people who don't believe in Jesus?

If they can't love people who don't believe in Jesus, then they've got a real problem.

[Tex]

I hate no one....I believe the so called crap you don't want to believe in. Now if Lord Jesus is who he says he is....Then you going against him, is your problem.

It's impossible to go against Jesus. Everything we have about this man named Jesus is hearsay rumors. All I'm doing is rejecting many of these rumors, which are often quite self-conflicting to boot.

I am no judge.

But you just did pass judgment on me as "Going against Jesus".

So you are judging the actions other people.

I personally take this as nothing more than secret desire on your part to see Jesus condemn me.

You want to roll the dice with your life go right ahead. Even Mohammed made sure he put Lord Jesus in his notes.....He wasn't stupid. Even he knew what Lord Jesus did.

Mohammed renounced Jesus as LORD.

Besides, here you go with fear-factor again. You're trying to make Jesus out as a horrible monster who will hurt people who don't acknowledge him.

I have no problem with Jesus, Tex.

I'll answer to Jesus any day.

It's Christians like you who would condemn me in Jesus' name.

I have no fear of your desire to condemn me.

Besides if Jesus truly is the all-righteous benevolent loving God that the Christians claim, then I'm sure he would fully understand why I don't believe the hearsay rumors about him.

All you're doing is suggesting to me that Jesus is either stupid or hateful.

Evidently I think more highly of Jesus than you do.

Where's the LOVE?

Why can Christians LOVE people who don't believe in Jesus?

If they can't love people who don't believe in Jesus, then they've got a real problem.

Don't you get it.....We are told to love as Christians.

You deny what the prophets have said. You don't believe in the written word.
You make it up as you go along. Yes, I would love that the world was all roses and lilies....But I live in the real world.

I do not judge. I warn people of their possible faith. If your lucky and the NT is full of crap and God is a wimp, as you purpose God to be.....Then great for all of us.

Evil will have it's place beside good and we can all live in war and suffering for all of eternity.

[Danmark]

....
According to the Christians the Muslims are immoral people because they refuse to accept Jesus as The Christ. According to the Muslims the Christians are immoral people because they put Jesus ahead of Allah.

So even these religions that are ultimately based upon the same original jealous-God fables are at each others throats because of this kind of mentality.

And then decent people like you, me and Danmark get sucked into hating each other all because of these jealous God religions.

It's almost hilarious when you stop and think about it.

Good points. Perhaps we could all take a step back and reflect on words attributed to Jesus, words we could, hopefully, all agree on regardless of the status of He to whom the words are attributed:

35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’

‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

[Tex]

Mohammed renounced Jesus as LORD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam

Here a little on Lord Jesus in the quran.
Pretty high title if you ask me.
Like I said....He wasn't stupid.

[Tex]

....
According to the Christians the Muslims are immoral people because they refuse to accept Jesus as The Christ. According to the Muslims the Christians are immoral people because they put Jesus ahead of Allah.

So even these religions that are ultimately based upon the same original jealous-God fables are at each others throats because of this kind of mentality.

And then decent people like you, me and Danmark get sucked into hating each other all because of these jealous God religions.

It's almost hilarious when you stop and think about it.

Good points. Perhaps we could all take a step back and reflect on words attributed to Jesus, words we could, hopefully, all agree on regardless of the status of He to whom the words are attributed:

35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’

‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

a.....Denmark....Not good words according to Divine Insight. You see where Lord Jesus is quoted as saying

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Divine's God won't do these type of things.....His God will be skipping around passing out roses.

[Divine Insight]

If your lucky and the NT is full of crap and God is a wimp, as you purpose God to be.....Then great for all of us.

Exactly my point.

It it would be great for all of us if the religion is false, then why do any of us continue to cling to it?

Do I want to believe on pure FAITH that I'm in the doghouse with my creator?
Do I want to believe on pure FAITH that we are all disgusting sinners in need of repentance?
Do I want to believe on pure FAITH that my creator had to have his son beaten and nailed to a pole to pay for my unworthiness?

No, of course I don't. And no one in their right mind should.

Why does anyone want to believe in all these horrible things as a matter of pure FAITH?

The question is, would we all be far better off if, the following were true?

We aren't in the doghouse with our creator.
We aren't all disgusting sinners in need of repentance.
No God had to have his son nailed to a pole to pay for our unworthiness?

Yes, we would all be far better off.

In fact, anyone who wouldn't totally rejoice and sing hallelujah at the discovery that the entire Hebrew God myth is false would need to have some serious mental problems.

In fact, I can never understand why Christians rejoice over the idea that Jesus was nailed to a pole to pay for their sins. Seems to me that's something to be sore ashamed of, and exceedingly disgusted by. What is there to rejoice about such a horrible state of affairs?

If I were to truly believe in the Christian story I'd be sick to my stomach. I'd be totally disgusted with myself, and sorely ashamed of the whole disgusting predicament.

Moreover, even if I'm granted "Grace" to get into this supposed heaven and eternal life, it would be at what cost? At the cost of realizing that I'm totally unworthy of being there and that the only way I could get there was for my creator to have his only begotten son nailed to a pole to pay for my disgusting unworthiness.

I'm supposed to be thrilled about this?

What can I say, Tex?

If the religion is true, it's the most sorrowful and pathetic state of affairs I can imagine. And apparently there's not even anything I could do about it now or ever.

And that bring up the very REAL question of how I could even be held responsible for something that I didn't even have any chance to do anything about?

Why am I such a disgusting unworthy creature in the first place?

When I ask that question the only answer I can see in the context of this religion is that I was created that way by my creator. Then all of a sudden the whole thing seems like nothing more than a dirty trick. A creator who creates disgusting inept unworthy creatures just so they can grovel for his forgiveness?

What kind of a reality would that be?

When I think of it this way, I can't help by see pure secular atheism as a far more inviting picture. I'd rather be just a pure accident of nature than a purposefully poorly designed creature by a God who could have only designed me so poorly for the purpose of groveling for his forgiveness.

It makes no sense.

So yes, if Christianity were shown to be false (which I personally believe it has been) then we should all be rejoicing that this myth was indeed nothing more than a man made superstition,.

But here you are arguing that we should continue to fear that it might actually be true.

Why?

Why should we continue to fear that?

Why don't we just chalk it up to being utterly absurd, and move on to bigger and better things?

That's what I don't understand. Why do so many people continue to grovel in it?

And the worst part is that they continue to evangelize it and try to get other people to grovel in it too!

What's the point in that?

[Danmark]

‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

a.....Denmark....Not good words according to Divine Insight. You see where Lord Jesus is quoted as saying

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Divine God won't do these type of things.....His God will be skipping around passing out roses.

Really Tex. I . . . How can I say this without being critical? I sent, and not for the first time, a post of peace making intent. I was trying to find something we could all agree on. I'll take the blame. I should not have given the full context.

Don't you agree Tex that Divine Insight and you and I can all agree that we should try to treat 'the least these,' our brothers, as if they were Jesus?

I apologize for my part in setting people off in a tizzy, but aren't we all people of good will despite our failings? We may have honest disagreements about theology, doctrine, and our various belief systems, but surely we can agree on trying to adopt the kindnesses we all attribute to the image, if not the reality, of Jesus?
. . . at least for tonight, the end of the first day of the new year?

And rather than take any credit for trying to be a peacemaker and thus absolving my self of anything, let me say I am inspired by a 500 token donation for an unrelated post. The donation came from someone with whom I have had arguments heated enough to provoke the moderators to intervene. So . . .

We can all fight again tomorrow , but for tonight at least let's at least make an effort to be kind to each other.

[TheTruth101]

Tithing was done and made under the religious principals of charity. And also, self sacrifice.

It was done under a notion being spoken from the Apostles of God to give to others, that they are your brothers. Indeed the faithful people of christ are following his footsteps, as christ have clearly said "there is no greater love than giving your life for a brother". Christ was not speaking of "dying" for another, althogh it can be said that way, but it was also in refernce to "feeding" the church, or the kingdom of God, in turn, giving life to another, and sacrificing your own luxury of life.

Also, 10% was ordered by God because it resembeles excellence, or perfection, as in God. And from God was made society, you can simply look at our general grading system. 100 to 90 percent being A, or excellence, indeed it is a note of supremacy noting 10 percentism.

Charity along with self sacrifice was the given prinipal of Christs teachings, indeed the people of christianity will be placed highest in the level of heavens.

Remember Truth, tithing is an obligation, a command from God. It is a duty. A free will offering in addition to your tithe is charity. I hope you are not just doing the minimum.

I know you like numbers Truth, and imbue them with your special meanings, but where did you come up with '10' as the perfect number according to God? I was under the impression '7' was the number of perfection . . . along with '3'. I'm relatively sure God likes prime numbers.

I'm curious about how you came up with " the people of christianity will be placed highest in the level of heavens." I didn't realize heaven had levels. Also, your statement suggests that the people who are not "of christianity" may be allowed to hang around on some of the lower levels. That would be cool . . . or at least cooler than the alternative.

To give to others is whats important. It is indeed considered charity when one offers to give to others in any shape or form. The christians offering their mind and knowledge of God can be considered a charity as well.

As far as the levels of the heavens,



2 Corinthians 12:1-4

I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord.
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows.
And I know that this man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows--
was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.

[stubbornone]

Your conclusion is unwarranted. More importantly your attitude toward the natural cycle of life and death surprises me. How sad for you.

Attitude is everything.

Don't you agree that this can be a wonderful world and a world of wonder?
It's a joy just to be alive, to learn, to explore, to travel. The more nature is revealed, the more wondrous it seems. There's so much to do and yet it's great to just relax.

If you close your mind to the suffering that exist.....Everything can be great.
And that because you have it good.

I'm blessed to live where I do, with easy access to rivers, forests and mountains. As much fun as it is to go camping with friends, sometimes I like to go out alone, to pitch a tent beside a clear mountain stream and enjoy a good book. Other times I find myself just sitting and drinking in the beauty, enjoying it without words.

This goes to " Drink, enjoy, be merry because this is all there is"

It's as if the beauty of nature radiates palpable goodness, nourishing the mind as if by magic. And sometimes it is good to just lie down . . . to sleep, letting consciousness quietly slip away. Someday it will slip away and the comforting rest will be dreamless.

Yet...again...You live in a dream world where everything is roses then you die.
If a person can't be outside enjoying the lilies of the fields like you....Well tough, better luck next time! Wait there is no next time so the the homeless must just enjoy his limbs being frozen. While you grasp in your lottery.

Why so eager to rain on parades? It's as if you aren't happy unless others are miserable. I've worked with people who were quadriplegics. I've seen some who were miserable, others who triumphed over their circumstances by sheer attitude.

I am indeed privileged. I have been lucky to have friends and family who are delightful. What father would not be proud to boast he has a daughter who graduated from Harvard Law school? I have work I enjoy that affords me the opportunity to visit those in pain and in jails. Some of them are better off in jail than what awaits them outside, so I am hardly unaware of pain and suffering. Helping them is tonic for me. I've worked since I was 4 years old and not always at tasks I enjoyed. Now I get to enjoy some of the fruits of that labor.

Everyone has pain and suffering in this world, it is how they meet those challenges that counts. These bodies of ours have not finished evolving from walking on all fours, so many of us suffer sciatica and other lower back issues, a fact I understand better than I would have liked. But I am grateful for what I have, rather than I consider what I lack.

You really have a problem with any of that?

What the hell does this post have to the with the OP?

Seems more like simple contrarianism, wherein anything Tex says ... Dan finds some random opposite to preach about.

Thesis, support it ... if you can.

You guys crack me up. Go off topic (allegedly) then complain when your question is answered. Even a post on being happy and enjoying life gets cranky rise out of the doom and gloom crowd. Not a particularly good recommendation for your belief system.

And YOU, complaining about 'contrarianism' and 'preaching'. More projection.

I have to congratulate you tho', you managed to get thru a post without saying 'silliness' or 'victim.' Well done.

... Tho' I have to knock off a point for cursing.

Yes, when starting thread alleging that atheism magically makes you superior, its best not to make a case, but to generally just insult other people's faith through simple cruelty and misdirection.

Atheism ... definitely morally superior.

Please attempt to make a case. Its a debate forum, not a crap on Christians forum.

[stubbornone]

If your lucky and the NT is full of crap and God is a wimp, as you purpose God to be.....Then great for all of us.

Exactly my point.

It it would be great for all of us if the religion is false, then why do any of us continue to cling to it?

Do I want to believe on pure FAITH that I'm in the doghouse with my creator?
Do I want to believe on pure FAITH that we are all disgusting sinners in need of repentance?
Do I want to believe on pure FAITH that my creator had to have his son beaten and nailed to a pole to pay for my unworthiness?

No, of course I don't. And no one in their right mind should.

Why would you take ANY of that on faith? Are the rules of Christianity unknown?

When you lie, you are in the dog house with God. Its not a secret, and it isn't something you have to take on faith.

You need to take it on faith that you are NOT perfect, and that there may yet be somthing for you to learn in this world???? See earlier comments about the dangers of hubris.

You need to take on faith the power of resurrection, which beat the nailing to the cross thing, but of course, you have some other means of addressing the consequences of the sin you never do ... because 'facts' tell you that you never sin?

No in their right mind should accept self worship as an alternative to reality.