Are Atheists Potentially Morally Superior to Theists?

[Danmark]

The proposition is that atheists have the potential of being morally superior to theists because to the extent the atheist does good works, he does them because he wants to, because she thinks it right. Whereas the theist acts out of religious necessity or compulsion; the threat of hell or deprivation of heaven.

[TheTruth101]

The whole idea of this post stems from one not acknowledging God.

You'd need to show the existence of a God that's worth acknowledging.

I can give you countless reason why the Hebrew fables have no more merit than Greek Mythology.

Moreover, I would be extremely disappointed in any so-called God who was so crude and ignorant to be part of a plan to have his only begotten son beaten and nailed to a pole just to make some sort of point to humanity.

IMHO, any entity who would devise such a hideous plan would not be a God but a demon. So the Christian fables cannot possibly be about a "God" as far as I'm concerned because that God would necessarily be far beneath me in terms of morality and wisdom. I don't care what his reasons are, the very idea of having his own son beaten and nailed to a pole as an exhibition to humanity of his love, is extremely unwise, IMHO.

That kind of behavior is not going to cause me to have any respect for this supposed God.

So why should I acknowledge fables about a God whose behavior is far beneath anything that I would personally condone?

As I have said many time, even if these fables turned out to be true and our creator is truly this ignorant, then all I could do is weep in disgust and sorrow that our creator turned out to be so ignorant.

I would certainly not worship this creator, nor respect him, nor would I rejoice in anyway. On the contrary, if Christianity is true, that's the saddest thing that could happen. A purely secular existence would be far more honorable and attractive.

So there's nothing worth of acknowledging here. There's no reason to believe that these ancient superstitious rumors are true, and even if they were true that would just be a totally disappointing and extremely sad situation.

So there's nothing to acknowledge.

Hell is one of the obstacle that make on believe in faith and it is indeed a truthful one. for all one can note, a person of faith can crossover to Afica and simply preach of love that stemmed from Christ. Without awareness of punishment however(hell), one dictates ones own orders and way of life.

But Christians don't preach the love of Christ. On the contrary they preach that anything short of the idol worship of Jesus as the Christ is reason for damnation.

It has nothing to do with love at all. It's entirely about the idol worship of Jesus as the sacrificial lamb of the fictitious God of the Hebrews.

Love and morality are a totally moot point.

Just look at what you are doing. I've told you that I totally support love and morality. Yet this isn't good enough for you. You won't be happy until Jesus is idolized as "The Christ" and used to support the ignorance of the Old Testament as the "Word of God", even though the Gospels clearly have Jesus himself rejecting those immoral practices via his own teaching.

Jesus himself did not embrace the immoral teachings of the Old Testament.

The Old Testament has God commanding people to judge each other and to stone heathens and sinners to death. Jesus renounced the judging of others and taught people not to judge others. Jesus also taught people not to cast the first stone, so he rejected the stoning to death of sinners too.

Jesus didn't 'acknowledge' the God of the Old Testament anymore than I do.

The religion of Christianity isn't about love and morality. It's about idolizing Jesus.

The Pharisees nailed physically had Jesus nailed to a pole. The Christians (i.e. the authors of the New Testament) then crucified Jesus as second time by nailing him to the Old Testament via attempting to make out like he was the demigod Son of the God of Abraham.

Jesus could not have been the demigod son of a God that he didn't even agree with.

So the only thing left to 'acknowledge' here is that the Gospels rumors are indeed nothing more than superstitious fantasy. They have no more merit than the Greek mythology of Zeus and company.

Also your first words in this post prove my point:

The whole idea of this post stems from one not acknowledging God.

Christianity isn't about love and morality. It's entirely about acknowledging Christianity to be the "Word of God".

That's the goal of evangelism. Not to spread love and morality, but rather to spread the idea that their myth must be acknowledged as the "Word of God".

That, my friend, is precisely all that it's about.

If fact the proof is given by the topic of this very thread. Christianity would condemn a moral atheist just because that atheist doesn't acknowledge the Christian myth.

Christianity has absolutely nothing to do with love or morality. Its sole purpose is the idol worship of Jesus as "The Christ". That's all that Christianity stands for.

Love and morality take a very far back seat to the idol worship of Jesus as "The Christ".

You can be the most loving and moral person on the planet, if you aren't worshiping Jesus as an idol, then the Christians will condemn you.

That is their only focus. Jesus must be worshiped as an idol. Period.

Christians preach nothing but love Divine insight. That is the main preaching form many pastors in all christianity nowadays. It's the mainstream christianity teachings.
I repeated over and over in this forum I represent my own understanding of Christ. It shouldnt reflect as to all christians or christianity as a whle in general.

God is of the spiritual. The understanding of any God comes from the notion of invisibility, not in sight, hidden. Therefore, only thing one can rely on is the Word. The Word of the hebrew God stands true within me, and I live my ways according to the word of the hebrew God, therefore, I have ate his Word, and have become flesh in his Word. In turn, you are witnessing the Word becoming in flesh, and in reality, you are in witness of the Son of the hebrew God. Therefore, you are interacting with the Word of the hebrew God. In all, you are witnessing God in flesh.


Above is similar to what Christ said, I just made it differently as to my own version of truth. To fit the times, and to make it more realistic for all the Jesus myth believers. Now all can get a sense that Christ was real and was the truth.

Hope you get it this time.

[SailingCyclops]

The proposition is that atheists have the potential of being morally superior to theists because to the extent the atheist does good works, he does them because he wants to, because she thinks it right. Whereas the theist acts out of religious necessity or compulsion; the threat of hell or deprivation of heaven.

Well, does it matter what the motivation is, as long as the act has the desired effect?

In some respects it does. If the moral act comes with strings attached. If the moral act is designed to enrich the ranks of a church, or indoctrinate a religious belief, it matters. At least it matters to me.

[catalyst]

The proposition is that atheists have the potential of being morally superior to theists because to the extent the atheist does good works, he does them because he wants to, because she thinks it right. Whereas the theist acts out of religious necessity or compulsion; the threat of hell or deprivation of heaven.

I am going to reply to this from a former Christian perspective VS a now atheist perspective.

When I was a christian, I "did things" first and foremost with GOD in mind. The person actually needing help however, was a secondary thing. Promoting the GOD concept was FIRST priority and frankly if they didn't want to hear the "Good News" I had to tell them, then... I didn't care so much about them. I actually took a metaphorical leaf out of the Jesus stuff and had nothing but disdain toward those that did NOT care for "His" teachings. When I helped people AS a Christian is was completely on MY and my God's terms...which were those shown through selective NT verses.

Nowadays, as an atheist, the individual that requires help with the basic fundamentals in life (food, shelter..for example) IS the priority. They don't HAVE to believe in any god, but if they do, then they are welcome anyway. Interestingly though, some people I DO deal with have been turned away from "christian" affiliated soup kitchens and shelters, and ARE actually self-professed Christians. They were turned away purely because they did not want to buy into what another Christian denomination was spouting at them as the TRUTH "according to..."

As people are referring to the supposed teachings of "Jesus of Nazareth" of late on this thread, I wonder how "he" , that they claim to believe in, would be feeling about these different factions actually turning away "Christians" of other denominations. *shaking head*

Catalyst.

[TheTruth101]

Tithing was done and made under the religious principals of charity. And also, self sacrifice.

It was done under a notion being spoken from the Apostles of God to give to others, that they are your brothers. Indeed the faithful people of christ are following his footsteps, as christ have clearly said "there is no greater love than giving your life for a brother". Christ was not speaking of "dying" for another, althogh it can be said that way, but it was also in refernce to "feeding" the church, or the kingdom of God, in turn, giving life to another, and sacrificing your own luxury of life.

Also, 10% was ordered by God because it resembeles excellence, or perfection, as in God. And from God was made society, you can simply look at our general grading system. 100 to 90 percent being A, or excellence, indeed it is a note of supremacy noting 10 percentism.

Charity along with self sacrifice was the given prinipal of Christs teachings, indeed the people of christianity will be placed highest in the level of heavens.

Remember Truth, tithing is an obligation, a command from God. It is a duty. A free will offering in addition to your tithe is charity. I hope you are not just doing the minimum.

I know you like numbers Truth, and imbue them with your special meanings, but where did you come up with '10' as the perfect number according to God? I was under the impression '7' was the number of perfection . . . along with '3'. I'm relatively sure God likes prime numbers.

I'm curious about how you came up with " the people of christianity will be placed highest in the level of heavens." I didn't realize heaven had levels. Also, your statement suggests that the people who are not "of christianity" may be allowed to hang around on some of the lower levels. That would be cool . . . or at least cooler than the alternative.

I will tell you a deeper reason of 10%. The 10% reflects the idea of 10 commandmens. God gave us the 10 golden rules, therefore, we should give a percent back per commandment as offering. As evident by the animal sacrifice before the 10 commanments, sopciety grew and animal sacrifice were replaced with earned wage per Man. 10 Words or commanments were given to give direction, therefore we should offer 1 percent per wisdom that was spoken.

In all, still reletive to what i said initially, it marks for excellence or perfectionof one because we follow the wisdom given as laws from God.

[TheTruth101]

Everyone has pain and suffering in this world, it is how they meet those challenges that counts. These bodies of ours have not finished evolving from walking on all fours, so many of us suffer sciatica and other lower back issues, a fact I understand better than I would have liked. But I am grateful for what I have, rather than I consider what I lack.

grateful to who????????????????

There are many who have back problems, there are many that resort to seeking medical treatment. But wait, the symbol of medical industry reflects Moses of his staff and snake that was made from his staff and of the holy spirit as a dove.


http://www.google.com/imgres?q=image+me ... ,s:0,i:112


Anyway, hope your back gets better soon Liutenent Dan

[Divine Insight]

Why would you take ANY of that on faith? Are the rules of Christianity unknown?

Yes, the "Rules" of Christianity are quite unknown. The myriad of opposing denominations of Christianity is vivid proof of this.

All Protestants have broken the "Rules" of Christianity when they rejected the Body of Christ in the Catholic Church, at least from the point of view of the Catholics.

So all Protestant Christians are already heathens who have broken the "Rules" of Christianity.

I mean, you certainly could look at it like that, and when you do, you begin to see just how utterly nonsensical it is indeed to speak about any "Rules" in Christianity.

When you lie, you are in the dog house with God. Its not a secret, and it isn't something you have to take on faith.

That my friend is an extremely interesting question. I was very fortunate to learn very early on that other than having to "cover up" a greater sin there is no need to lie. Since I commit no greater sins I have no need to lie. Why would I need to lie about anything?

Also, diplomacy and tact are not lying. In fact, Jesus used diplomacy and tact all the time in his teachings. In many ways he actually did lie if you can believe the Gospels.

Supposedly Jesus said that he did not come to change the laws of the prophets. But what did he do? Precisely that. So if you take that literally, Jesus himself was a liar.

Also Jesus preached to people that anything they ask of the Father in his name it will he will do for them. Again, a huge lie.

So apparently even Jesus couldn't resist lying.

You need to take it on faith that you are NOT perfect, and that there may yet be somthing for you to learn in this world???? See earlier comments about the dangers of hubris.

Excuse me? According to Jesus I most certainly can be perfect if I chose to be for he commanded us to be perfect as our father in heaven is perfect:

Matt.5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

You were just talking about "Rules". Where there you go. If you are a Christian who claims to be obeying the commandments of Jesus then you are without excuse for not being perfect as your father in heaven is perfect.

Do you think Jesus would instruct you to do something that you are incapable of doing? Of course not. Not unless you believe that Jesus is unreasonable. Therefore you are without excuse if you are not perfect as Jesus had commanded that you should be.

Also, what does "Hubris" have to do with anything?

Christians who proclaim that Jesus is "The Christ" are the people who are full of hubris. They can't possibly know whether Jesus was a demigod, a mere mortal man, or even a completely made up myth.

If they could be honest with themselves they would confess that they are necessarily agnostic and can only have FAITH that Jesus might have somehow been special in some way.

But no, that's not the position they take at all. On the contrary they are so filled with Hubris that they demand that Jesus was "The Christ" in no uncertain terms.

I confess to everyone that I cannot know whether Jesus was a demigod, a mortal man, or just an entirely fabricated myth. But I will offer my well-educated opinions that as far as I'm concerned the idea that he was a demigod cannot possibly be true, especially within the larger context of the Abrahamic myths.

I personally believe that some mortal man potentially named "Jesus" or something along those lines, probably did live, reject the immoral teaching of the Torah just as the Gospel rumors suggest, called the Pharisees hypocrites, and was indeed crucified publicly thus giving spark to the many rumors that followed about him.

There is no hubris in that. It's just a sharing of a life's experience of knowledge.

I'm just trying to help other people from being duped by this overly arrogant religion.

You need to take on faith the power of resurrection, which beat the nailing to the cross thing, but of course, you have some other means of addressing the consequences of the sin you never do ... because 'facts' tell you that you never sin?

That's right. In my entire life I have never done anything that would warrant anyone being nailed to a pole.

Not only that, but how would having an innocent person nailed to a pole make anything right anyway? That's really a far bigger issue Stubbornone.

I have serious issue with a God who feels that having an innocent person nailed to a pole makes up for any wrong doings.

And I'll gladly take that up with any Almighty Creator in person. That creator would need to justify to me the sanity of such an act.

I'm not about to support an ancient myth of a God who thinks that nailing someone to a pole makes anything right. The very idea that some supposedly "All-Wise" creator would even consider such an act is totally unacceptable to me.

And to even go further to the point where he would make it the central point and focus of the supposedly "Only Way" to obtain his Grace and Love is even more absurd.

This is an ancient crude and rude superstition. It does nothing short of proclaiming that our creator will stoop to extremely low places to make a point. And the idea that to condone this act on our behalf is the "Only Way" to obtain his LOVE, is not only unacceptable to me, but IMHO, it's utterly insane.

So yes, if our creator is like this, he's got a lot of explaining to do to justify his utterly crude and ignorant way of attempting to interact with the objects of his creation.

Any God who would lower himself to using such an ignorant method in an attempt to get people to love him, would IMHO, be a candidate for some serious mental therapy.

No in their right mind should accept self worship as an alternative to reality.

Where did anyone in this thread speak of self-worship?

[ytrewq]

The proposition is that atheists have the potential of being morally superior to theists because to the extent the atheist does good works, he does them because he wants to, because she thinks it right. Whereas the theist acts out of religious necessity or compulsion; the threat of hell or deprivation of heaven.

I am going to reply to this from a former Christian perspective VS a now atheist perspective.



When I was a christian, I "did things" first and foremost with GOD in mind. The person actually needing help however, was a secondary thing. Promoting the GOD concept was FIRST priority and frankly if they didn't want to hear the "Good News" I had to tell them, then... I didn't care so much about them. I actually took a metaphorical leaf out of the Jesus stuff and had nothing but disdain toward those that did NOT care for "His" teachings. When I helped people AS a Christian is was completely on MY and my God's terms...which were those shown through selective NT verses.

Nowadays, as an atheist, the individual that requires help with the basic fundamentals in life (food, shelter..for example) IS the priority. They don't HAVE to believe in any god, but if they do, then they are welcome anyway. Interestingly though, some people I DO deal with have been turned away from "christian" affiliated soup kitchens and shelters, and ARE actually self-professed Christians. They were turned away purely because they did not want to buy into what another Christian denomination was spouting at them as the TRUTH "according to..."

As people are referring to the supposed teachings of "Jesus of Nazareth" of late on this thread, I wonder how "he" , that they claim to believe in, would be feeling about these different factions actually turning away "Christians" of other denominations. *shaking head*

Catalyst.

While many of the postings have been interesting, in terms of answering the original question, Catalyst's simple posting is worth more than all others combined.

Dan's proposition is shown to be true. Apparently no one else noticed, too busy continuing to whip each other with off-topic postings. Caaan yooouu heeaar meee peeoople - the topic is now resolved and closed, you can all stop arguing!!!

While Dan's proposition is shown to be true, there are some important things to note. Dan deliberately did not ask if atheists were morally superior in general to thesists, but instead asked if they were potentially superior, for the reasons he gave. Catalyst demonstrated that potentially they were, as she was just such an example.

However, this tells us little about whether atheists or theists are morally superior in general - to do that would probably be imposssible, requiring an impractically large data set, with a lot of doubtful personal judgement as well.

We could equally well ask if theists have the potential of being morally superior to atheists because (for example) atheists have to decide on their own morals, which some will not be able to do responsibly, while theists have the advantage of an agreed set of morals. I'll bet you could find a real-life example of a previously godless person whose moral behavior was improved by becoming a Christian, showing that this proposition is also potentially correct.

Is it really that hard for us all to find common ground, if we look for it?

[PhilosoRaptor]

Everyone has pain and suffering in this world, it is how they meet those challenges that counts. These bodies of ours have not finished evolving from walking on all fours, so many of us suffer sciatica and other lower back issues, a fact I understand better than I would have liked. But I am grateful for what I have, rather than I consider what I lack.

grateful to who????????????????

There are many who have back problems, there are many that resort to seeking medical treatment. But wait, the symbol of medical industry reflects Moses of his staff and snake that was made from his staff and of the holy spirit as a dove.


http://www.google.com/imgres?q=image+me ... ,s:0,i:112


Anyway, hope your back gets better soon Liutenent Dan

Actually that's the Staff of Hermes, AKA the caduceus, and it's unfortunate that it has become so heavily associated with medicine, since Hermes is the patron god of salesmen, liars, thieves, and gamblers, as well as the guide of the dead. Mostly the fault of the US Army Medical Corps adopting it as their symbol 100+ years ago.

Among medical professionals, the correct symbol is the Rod of Asclepius, the ancient Greek god of medicine and healing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_of_Asclepius

[TheTruth101]

Everyone has pain and suffering in this world, it is how they meet those challenges that counts. These bodies of ours have not finished evolving from walking on all fours, so many of us suffer sciatica and other lower back issues, a fact I understand better than I would have liked. But I am grateful for what I have, rather than I consider what I lack.

grateful to who????????????????

There are many who have back problems, there are many that resort to seeking medical treatment. But wait, the symbol of medical industry reflects Moses of his staff and snake that was made from his staff and of the holy spirit as a dove.


http://www.google.com/imgres?q=image+me ... ,s:0,i:112


Anyway, hope your back gets better soon Liutenent Dan

Actually that's the Staff of Hermes, AKA the caduceus, and it's unfortunate that it has become so heavily associated with medicine, since Hermes is the patron god of salesmen, liars, thieves, and gamblers, as well as the guide of the dead. Mostly the fault of the US Army Medical Corps adopting it as their symbol 100+ years ago.

Among medical professionals, the correct symbol is the Rod of Asclepius, the ancient Greek god of medicine and healing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_of_Asclepius

Oh well, as long as one acknowledges the symbol reflects God, it dosent really matter.

[Bust Nak]

The proposition is that atheists have the potential of being morally superior to theists because to the extent the atheist does good works, he does them because he wants to, because she thinks it right. Whereas the theist acts out of religious necessity or compulsion; the threat of hell or deprivation of heaven.

I would go as far as agreeing that someone who does good work for the satisfaction of doing good, is morally superior to someone who does the same good work in expactation of a reward/avoiding punishment later, but I will not go that extra step in implying atheist do gooders are the first kind while theist do gooders are the latter kind.