Are Atheists Potentially Morally Superior to Theists?

[Danmark]

The proposition is that atheists have the potential of being morally superior to theists because to the extent the atheist does good works, he does them because he wants to, because she thinks it right. Whereas the theist acts out of religious necessity or compulsion; the threat of hell or deprivation of heaven.

[TheTruth101]

Is it necessary for a theist to believe in a God who punishes immorality?

No.
Being a theist only means you believe in a God who is not less than personal. I might add a God who is all powerful and the creator of the universe. I can't really disagree with Wikipedia's definition
Theism, in this specific sense, conceives of God as personal, present and active in the governance and organization of the world and the universe. As such theism describes the classical conception of God that is found in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Sikhism and some forms of Hinduism.

EduChris could prob'ly give a more technical definition.

Your question has reminded me of an idea that I believe is pertinent to this discussion. A thought experiment if you will:

There is one God. He is the creator of the universe and everything within it. Let's suppose he has a moral code that he expresses to his creatures as an absolute [for the sake of this thought experiment it does not matter what he actually thinks is moral or not because He is beyond morality. To paraphrase Tillich, he is not a being at all. He is the very 'ground of being.' Whatever he proclaims as morality does not necessarily apply to Him].

So, the morality he suggests, rather 'he commands' his creatures follow is "Might Makes Right. Do whatever you want. " His commandments are written on a stone tablet:

1. I am God and the most powerful power in the universe. Worship me. Or not. Doesn't really matter because I am who I am and nothing you do, say or think can change a thing. Whatever I say is law.
2. As for what goes on between you, I'd like to see what happens. Kill yourselves off for all I care. I can start over whenever I want and make a bunch more of you. I want to see who is the strongest, the smartest. Do anything you like. Might makes right. If you can get away with it, fine. I don't give a fig. I just want to see how you folks work it out. Makes no nevermind to me. The one thing I want to say is, 'Don't any of you slimy little pathetic crawly creatures go about whining and claiming I told you what to do, because I am staying out of it.

OK, there we have it. The Two Commandments.

So what does man do? Naturally he goes for the might makes right thing right off the bat. Funny thing tho', after a few generations he realizes that if he teams up with his buddies, his chances for survival are better. This realization is shared by various cultures. The cultures that survive adopt it and triumph over the groups that are solely about 'might makes right.'

Through the centuries, for the most part, the might makes right individuals become fewer and fewer and most if not all surviving cultures call the MMR folks 'sociopaths' or 'criminals'.

Finally we get to the last 1000 years or so and some one says 'Morality only comes from God.' And everyone else says to him:

Are you nuts! We tried His morality. It sucks. For us, our morality of not stealing or killing and being honest and working together and acting like we love each other works MUCH better. Shut up and follow the rules. We do not want to go back to that MMR selfishness nonsense.

Quote Danmark,

1. I am God and the most powerful power in the universe. Worship me. Or not. Doesn't really matter because I am who I am and nothing you do, say or think can change a thing. Whatever I say is law.
2. As for what goes on between you, I'd like to see what happens. Kill yourselves off for all I care. I can start over whenever I want and make a bunch more of you. I want to see who is the strongest, the smartest. Do anything you like. Might makes right. If you can get away with it, fine. I don't give a fig. I just want to see how you folks work it out. Makes no nevermind to me. The one thing I want to say is, 'Don't any of you slimy little pathetic crawly creatures go about whining and claiming I told you what to do, because I am staying out of it.



The actual quote should be reinstated as this.

I am God and the most powerful power in the universe. Worship me or not.
Dosent really matter because I am who I am and nothing you do, say, or think can change a thing. Whatever I say is the law and the commandments.
As far as what goes on between you, I'd like to see what happens. Kill yourselves. I do care, I will meet you in hell to set your murderous ways. I want to make a bunch more like you, I want to see who is the weakest but yet the strongest, and the most obiedient. You will follow my commandments, because Might makes right. You will not get away with your wrongdoings, or sin. I care much more than you think because I give you eternity. I want to see how you folks work it out, in midst passing the tests of the unfaithfuls and the ways of the world. The faithful souls are the ones that will have my service for all eternity. The one thing I want to say is, " Pass the tests of the ones that tempt, because I will offer you the fountain of life. When the time is done, you shall hold your own commadments, and ultimately, I will give you the crown of eternal life.

[Danmark]

Is it necessary for a theist to believe in a God who punishes immorality?

No.
Being a theist only means you believe in a God who is not less than personal. I might add a God who is all powerful and the creator of the universe. I can't really disagree with Wikipedia's definition
Theism, in this specific sense, conceives of God as personal, present and active in the governance and organization of the world and the universe. As such theism describes the classical conception of God that is found in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Sikhism and some forms of Hinduism.

EduChris could prob'ly give a more technical definition.

Your question has reminded me of an idea that I believe is pertinent to this discussion. A thought experiment if you will:

There is one God. He is the creator of the universe and everything within it. Let's suppose he has a moral code that he expresses to his creatures as an absolute [for the sake of this thought experiment it does not matter what he actually thinks is moral or not because He is beyond morality. To paraphrase Tillich, he is not a being at all. He is the very 'ground of being.' Whatever he proclaims as morality does not necessarily apply to Him].

So, the morality he suggests, rather 'he commands' his creatures follow is "Might Makes Right. Do whatever you want. " His commandments are written on a stone tablet:

1. I am God and the most powerful power in the universe. Worship me. Or not. Doesn't really matter because I am who I am and nothing you do, say or think can change a thing. Whatever I say is law.
2. As for what goes on between you, I'd like to see what happens. Kill yourselves off for all I care. I can start over whenever I want and make a bunch more of you. I want to see who is the strongest, the smartest. Do anything you like. Might makes right. If you can get away with it, fine. I don't give a fig. I just want to see how you folks work it out. Makes no nevermind to me. The one thing I want to say is, 'Don't any of you slimy little pathetic crawly creatures go about whining and claiming I told you what to do, because I am staying out of it.

OK, there we have it. The Two Commandments.

So what does man do? Naturally he goes for the might makes right thing right off the bat. Funny thing tho', after a few generations he realizes that if he teams up with his buddies, his chances for survival are better. This realization is shared by various cultures. The cultures that survive adopt it and triumph over the groups that are solely about 'might makes right.'

Through the centuries, for the most part, the might makes right individuals become fewer and fewer and most if not all surviving cultures call the MMR folks 'sociopaths' or 'criminals'.

Finally we get to the last 1000 years or so and some one says 'Morality only comes from God.' And everyone else says to him:

Are you nuts! We tried His morality. It sucks. For us, our morality of not stealing or killing and being honest and working together and acting like we love each other works MUCH better. Shut up and follow the rules. We do not want to go back to that MMR selfishness nonsense.

Quote Danmark,

1. I am God and the most powerful power in the universe. Worship me. Or not. Doesn't really matter because I am who I am and nothing you do, say or think can change a thing. Whatever I say is law.
2. As for what goes on between you, I'd like to see what happens. Kill yourselves off for all I care. I can start over whenever I want and make a bunch more of you. I want to see who is the strongest, the smartest. Do anything you like. Might makes right. If you can get away with it, fine. I don't give a fig. I just want to see how you folks work it out. Makes no nevermind to me. The one thing I want to say is, 'Don't any of you slimy little pathetic crawly creatures go about whining and claiming I told you what to do, because I am staying out of it.



The actual quote should be reinstated as this.

I am God and the most powerful power in the universe. Worship me or not.
Dosent really matter because I am who I am and nothing you do, say, or think can change a thing. Whatever I say is the law and the commandments.
As far as what goes on between you, I'd like to see what happens. Kill yourselves. I do care, I will meet you in hell to set your murderous ways. I want to make a bunch more like you, I want to see who is the weakest but yet the strongest, and the most obiedient. You will follow my commandments, because Might makes right. You will not get away with your wrongdoings, or sin. I care much more than you think because I give you eternity. I want to see how you folks work it out, in midst passing the tests of the unfaithfuls and the ways of the world. The faithful souls are the ones that will have my service for all eternity. The one thing I want to say is, " Pass the tests of the ones that tempt, because I will offer you the fountain of life. When the time is done, you shall hold your own commadments, and ultimately, I will give you the crown of eternal life.

What is the point of your revision?

Since you apparently did not understand the thought experiment, i'll spell it out:

As the creator and most powerful being in the universe, our hypothetical God can declare any morality he wants, including one that we humans think is immoral.

The point of the thought experiment is that humans, through rational thought and evolution would have come up with what we today agree is moral. That it happens to coincide with the Code of Hammurabi and the Ten Commandments is not coincidental.

But what this shows is that it is folly to claim that a GOD determines what is moral. As the the thought experiment shows, Man is likely to come up with the same morality through natural processes. a 'GOD' can come up with whatever he wants.

Therefore, we mere mortals are quite justified in declaring that we can judge the morality of any religion, and the claim that what some alleged god says is right, is absurd. In fact, the claim that only God can say what is and is not moral, is an appeal to 'Might Makes Right' morality.

[TheTruth101]

Is it necessary for a theist to believe in a God who punishes immorality?

No.
Being a theist only means you believe in a God who is not less than personal. I might add a God who is all powerful and the creator of the universe. I can't really disagree with Wikipedia's definition
Theism, in this specific sense, conceives of God as personal, present and active in the governance and organization of the world and the universe. As such theism describes the classical conception of God that is found in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Sikhism and some forms of Hinduism.

EduChris could prob'ly give a more technical definition.

Your question has reminded me of an idea that I believe is pertinent to this discussion. A thought experiment if you will:

There is one God. He is the creator of the universe and everything within it. Let's suppose he has a moral code that he expresses to his creatures as an absolute [for the sake of this thought experiment it does not matter what he actually thinks is moral or not because He is beyond morality. To paraphrase Tillich, he is not a being at all. He is the very 'ground of being.' Whatever he proclaims as morality does not necessarily apply to Him].

So, the morality he suggests, rather 'he commands' his creatures follow is "Might Makes Right. Do whatever you want. " His commandments are written on a stone tablet:

1. I am God and the most powerful power in the universe. Worship me. Or not. Doesn't really matter because I am who I am and nothing you do, say or think can change a thing. Whatever I say is law.
2. As for what goes on between you, I'd like to see what happens. Kill yourselves off for all I care. I can start over whenever I want and make a bunch more of you. I want to see who is the strongest, the smartest. Do anything you like. Might makes right. If you can get away with it, fine. I don't give a fig. I just want to see how you folks work it out. Makes no nevermind to me. The one thing I want to say is, 'Don't any of you slimy little pathetic crawly creatures go about whining and claiming I told you what to do, because I am staying out of it.

OK, there we have it. The Two Commandments.

So what does man do? Naturally he goes for the might makes right thing right off the bat. Funny thing tho', after a few generations he realizes that if he teams up with his buddies, his chances for survival are better. This realization is shared by various cultures. The cultures that survive adopt it and triumph over the groups that are solely about 'might makes right.'

Through the centuries, for the most part, the might makes right individuals become fewer and fewer and most if not all surviving cultures call the MMR folks 'sociopaths' or 'criminals'.

Finally we get to the last 1000 years or so and some one says 'Morality only comes from God.' And everyone else says to him:

Are you nuts! We tried His morality. It sucks. For us, our morality of not stealing or killing and being honest and working together and acting like we love each other works MUCH better. Shut up and follow the rules. We do not want to go back to that MMR selfishness nonsense.

Quote Danmark,

1. I am God and the most powerful power in the universe. Worship me. Or not. Doesn't really matter because I am who I am and nothing you do, say or think can change a thing. Whatever I say is law.
2. As for what goes on between you, I'd like to see what happens. Kill yourselves off for all I care. I can start over whenever I want and make a bunch more of you. I want to see who is the strongest, the smartest. Do anything you like. Might makes right. If you can get away with it, fine. I don't give a fig. I just want to see how you folks work it out. Makes no nevermind to me. The one thing I want to say is, 'Don't any of you slimy little pathetic crawly creatures go about whining and claiming I told you what to do, because I am staying out of it.



The actual quote should be reinstated as this.

I am God and the most powerful power in the universe. Worship me or not.
Dosent really matter because I am who I am and nothing you do, say, or think can change a thing. Whatever I say is the law and the commandments.
As far as what goes on between you, I'd like to see what happens. Kill yourselves. I do care, I will meet you in hell to set your murderous ways. I want to make a bunch more like you, I want to see who is the weakest but yet the strongest, and the most obiedient. You will follow my commandments, because Might makes right. You will not get away with your wrongdoings, or sin. I care much more than you think because I give you eternity. I want to see how you folks work it out, in midst passing the tests of the unfaithfuls and the ways of the world. The faithful souls are the ones that will have my service for all eternity. The one thing I want to say is, " Pass the tests of the ones that tempt, because I will offer you the fountain of life. When the time is done, you shall hold your own commadments, and ultimately, I will give you the crown of eternal life.

What is the point of your revision?

Since you apparently did not understand the thought experiment, i'll spell it out:

As the creator and most powerful being in the universe, our hypothetical God can declare any morality he wants, including one that we humans think is immoral.

The point of the thought experiment is that humans, through rational thought and evolution would have come up with what we today agree is moral. That it happens to coincide with the Code of Hammurabi and the Ten Commandments is not coincidental.

But what this shows is that it is folly to claim that a GOD determines what is moral. As the the thought experiment shows, Man is likely to come up with the same morality through natural processes. a 'GOD' can come up with whatever he wants.

Therefore, we mere mortals are quite justified in declaring that we can judge the morality of any religion, and the claim that what some alleged god says is right, is absurd. In fact, the claim that only God can say what is and is not moral, is an appeal to 'Might Makes Right' morality.

The attempted idea here is of the Atheists promoting moral codes learned from God, and moral codes learned from the society can be cooperated and enforced as one. The truth of it is, here is a prime example that atheist are actually pleading for cooperation in the discussinon of moral values. As a person of faith, one must note that two are indeed a different kind from start, and it can never be mixed and cooperated into one.

With that being said, the morals that athiests carry are rather from a structured society and it is a shameful one indeed. To start, It holds no balance. Moral codes one holds in Africa is genuinely different from the morals codes that is held in North Korea, or, a moral code that is held within the Taliban is clearly different from the moral codes held within the Seal team 6.


The athiestic view that you hold, saying both the societys moral codes and religious teachings of moral codes all cooperate to make the society today is utter non sense to a christian like myself. Though you claim murder is wrong according to the laws of the society, my conduct of morals stem from the commandment of Thou shall not kill.

The whole idea that one atheist thinks the society came in terms from the people, can be argued within a perspective or the eyes of a christian. Within myself, the ideas of laws came from God, importantly relating to philosophy, and in conclusion which made the ultimate laws of the nations in the first place.

[Nickman]

I think that the key to making people "Christians" realize that they are moral without a god, and that morals are not from their god, is the bible test.

I have shown many Christians the OT verses that they disagree with morally. When we humans look at the bad things in the OT (yes god does very questionable horrible things) we choose what we find to be good and what is bad. Most people when questioned about the law, will throw out the law and only choose ten of those commands. The ten commandments are not bad. There is some good in them. This picking and choosing shows that we can look inthis book that people claim as gods word and dismiss the bad and pick good. We are moral outside of the bible. It is not our moral compass. This can also be done in any scenario and with any book.

Examples would be god not rebuking slavery. We look at slavery as bad. We dismiss this and try to make a special plea for the god to make him moral in this. When we can't possibly make a good argument, we resort to "well god is god who are we?" This to me is evidence that we are the moral standard. We judge the bible on morals everyday. When we see something we don't agree with within its pages, we either dismiss it, change it to mean something else, or claim "god is god". When we see something we do agree with, we say "see I told you he was moral". We are the authors of morality by this simple example.

[TheTruth101]

I think that the key to making people "Christians" realize that they are moral without a god, and that morals are not from their god, is the bible test.

I have shown many Christians the OT verses that they disagree with morally. When we humans look at the bad things in the OT (yes god does very questionable horrible things) we choose what we find to be good and what is bad. Most people when questioned about the law, will throw out the law and only choose ten of those commands. The ten commandments are not bad. There is some good in them. This picking and choosing shows that we can look inthis book that people claim as gods word and dismiss the bad and pick good. We are moral outside of the bible. It is not our moral compass. This can also be done in any scenario and with any book.

Examples would be god not rebuking slavery. We look at slavery as bad. We dismiss this and try to make a special plea for the god to make him moral in this. When we can't possibly make a good argument, we resort to "well god is god who are we?" This to me is evidence that we are the moral standard. We judge the bible on morals everyday. When we see something we don't agree with within its pages, we either dismiss it, change it to mean something else, or claim "god is god". When we see something we do agree with, we say "see I told you he was moral". We are the authors of morality by this simple example.

As quoted from another thread.



Given per say, the people of the spiritual sees the spiritual aspect or the mental aspect of another. The physical matters that you hold as an atheist is only seeing the surface of slavery.

Enslavement comes in all shapes and sizes. Your testimony here to fight for your opinion is a way and form a enslaving anothers mind to adhere or take acknowledge of your ways. In this respect hypocricy can be examined throgh your post as well.

[Divine Insight]

In fact, the claim that only God can say what is and is not moral, is an appeal to 'Might Makes Right' morality.

Good point.

Also, if we look at religious myths like the Hebrew myth of the God of Abraham we see this God condoning the judging of others and the stoning to death of those who are judged to be either sinners or heathens.

This also violates his moral commandment, "Thou Shalt Not Kill".

So it's both a violation of his own commandments, and potentially immoral by subjective opinion. I certainly consider the judging and stoning to death of other people to be immoral.

Ironically when we get to the New Testament we find Jesus agreeing with me!

Finally we have someone in these fables who rejects the immoral conduct of the God of Abraham and teaches the precise opposite moral values (i.e. to not judge others and to not cast the first stone).

So here we have a religion where the demigod disagrees with the God.

That's a quite strange situation don't you think?

[Nickman]

I think that the key to making people "Christians" realize that they are moral without a god, and that morals are not from their god, is the bible test.

I have shown many Christians the OT verses that they disagree with morally. When we humans look at the bad things in the OT (yes god does very questionable horrible things) we choose what we find to be good and what is bad. Most people when questioned about the law, will throw out the law and only choose ten of those commands. The ten commandments are not bad. There is some good in them. This picking and choosing shows that we can look inthis book that people claim as gods word and dismiss the bad and pick good. We are moral outside of the bible. It is not our moral compass. This can also be done in any scenario and with any book.

Examples would be god not rebuking slavery. We look at slavery as bad. We dismiss this and try to make a special plea for the god to make him moral in this. When we can't possibly make a good argument, we resort to "well god is god who are we?" This to me is evidence that we are the moral standard. We judge the bible on morals everyday. When we see something we don't agree with within its pages, we either dismiss it, change it to mean something else, or claim "god is god". When we see something we do agree with, we say "see I told you he was moral". We are the authors of morality by this simple example.

As quoted from another thread.



Given per say, the people of the spiritual sees the spiritual aspect or the mental aspect of another. The physical matters that you hold as an atheist is only seeing the surface of slavery.

Enslavement comes in all shapes and sizes. Your testimony here to fight for your opinion is a way and form a enslaving anothers mind to adhere or take acknowledge of your ways. In this respect hypocricy can be examined throgh your post as well.

See, there you are trying to justify slavery which is one of my poi ts I made. We either say it is wrong, dismiss it, or justify it. You happen to fall into the last category which makes me question your morality.

[TheTruth101]

I think that the key to making people "Christians" realize that they are moral without a god, and that morals are not from their god, is the bible test.

I have shown many Christians the OT verses that they disagree with morally. When we humans look at the bad things in the OT (yes god does very questionable horrible things) we choose what we find to be good and what is bad. Most people when questioned about the law, will throw out the law and only choose ten of those commands. The ten commandments are not bad. There is some good in them. This picking and choosing shows that we can look inthis book that people claim as gods word and dismiss the bad and pick good. We are moral outside of the bible. It is not our moral compass. This can also be done in any scenario and with any book.

Examples would be god not rebuking slavery. We look at slavery as bad. We dismiss this and try to make a special plea for the god to make him moral in this. When we can't possibly make a good argument, we resort to "well god is god who are we?" This to me is evidence that we are the moral standard. We judge the bible on morals everyday. When we see something we don't agree with within its pages, we either dismiss it, change it to mean something else, or claim "god is god". When we see something we do agree with, we say "see I told you he was moral". We are the authors of morality by this simple example.

As quoted from another thread.



Given per say, the people of the spiritual sees the spiritual aspect or the mental aspect of another. The physical matters that you hold as an atheist is only seeing the surface of slavery.

Enslavement comes in all shapes and sizes. Your testimony here to fight for your opinion is a way and form a enslaving anothers mind to adhere or take acknowledge of your ways. In this respect hypocricy can be examined throgh your post as well.

See, there you are trying to justify slavery which is one of my poi ts I made. We either say it is wrong, dismiss it, or justify it. You happen to fall into the last category which makes me question your morality.

Now I know you have been reading most of my posts since we have had earlier exchanges of posts. If you dont recall, I have mentioned on another thread that God of the Most High will enslave the Atheists for all eternity, Therefore, I do accept slavery. I dont promote it, but its the laws and commandments given to the saints for our convienience. I will adhere to it, and satisfied with an atheist bringing me a cup of coffee from a spiritual condemnation. In all, I still stand firm to my morals status given from the Bible.

[stubbornone]

I think that the key to making people "Christians" realize that they are moral without a god, and that morals are not from their god, is the bible test.

I have shown many Christians the OT verses that they disagree with morally. When we humans look at the bad things in the OT (yes god does very questionable horrible things) we choose what we find to be good and what is bad. Most people when questioned about the law, will throw out the law and only choose ten of those commands. The ten commandments are not bad. There is some good in them. This picking and choosing shows that we can look inthis book that people claim as gods word and dismiss the bad and pick good. We are moral outside of the bible. It is not our moral compass. This can also be done in any scenario and with any book.

Examples would be god not rebuking slavery. We look at slavery as bad. We dismiss this and try to make a special plea for the god to make him moral in this. When we can't possibly make a good argument, we resort to "well god is god who are we?" This to me is evidence that we are the moral standard. We judge the bible on morals everyday. When we see something we don't agree with within its pages, we either dismiss it, change it to mean something else, or claim "god is god". When we see something we do agree with, we say "see I told you he was moral". We are the authors of morality by this simple example.

As quoted from another thread.



Given per say, the people of the spiritual sees the spiritual aspect or the mental aspect of another. The physical matters that you hold as an atheist is only seeing the surface of slavery.

Enslavement comes in all shapes and sizes. Your testimony here to fight for your opinion is a way and form a enslaving anothers mind to adhere or take acknowledge of your ways. In this respect hypocricy can be examined throgh your post as well.

See, there you are trying to justify slavery which is one of my poi ts I made. We either say it is wrong, dismiss it, or justify it. You happen to fall into the last category which makes me question your morality.

Are you even listening to yourself?

You are justifying your superior morality, so called anyway, by throwing slavery in the face of people who obviously neither own or support slavery.

One wonders where atheists such as yourself stand on the modern form of slavery, which is human sexual bondage. Are you one of those atheists who sees nothing wrong with a little visit to a prostitute?

Well, instead of talking in hypotheticals, because that is what morality is - a bunch of increasingly unlikely scenarios in which atheists 'test' people, but never themselves? How about the real world moral questions we face today?

Because is all your morality does is cause you to point disparaging fingers at others, you don;t have morality, you have narcissism.

[TheTruth101]

In fact, the claim that only God can say what is and is not moral, is an appeal to 'Might Makes Right' morality.

Good point.

Also, if we look at religious myths like the Hebrew myth of the God of Abraham we see this God condoning the judging of others and the stoning to death of those who are judged to be either sinners or heathens.

This also violates his moral commandment, "Thou Shalt Not Kill".

So it's both a violation of his own commandments, and potentially immoral by subjective opinion. I certainly consider the judging and stoning to death of other people to be immoral.

Ironically when we get to the New Testament we find Jesus agreeing with me!

Finally we have someone in these fables who rejects the immoral conduct of the God of Abraham and teaches the precise opposite moral values (i.e. to not judge others and to not cast the first stone).

So here we have a religion where the demigod disagrees with the God.

That's a quite strange situation don't you think?

Commandments were given from the highest court of authority, heavens.

Ones that were stoned to murder did not keep the commandments in the first place, therefore is recognized as a punishment. Not contradiction, but rather casue and effect.

Strange you praise Jesus, hope you are not attempting to call Lords name in vain.

If not, then by all means, Jesus promoted arguments or murder as well.

As evident by, I have not come to bring peace, but a sword, verse.

Please read the Bible before you post your opinions.