Are Atheists Potentially Morally Superior to Theists?

[Danmark]

The proposition is that atheists have the potential of being morally superior to theists because to the extent the atheist does good works, he does them because he wants to, because she thinks it right. Whereas the theist acts out of religious necessity or compulsion; the threat of hell or deprivation of heaven.

[EduChris]

...If God were good, then how would I know whether or if any of my beliefs were actually true?...

Let's suppose, for a moment, that Ultimate Reality is not less than personal, and that Ultimate Reality is not arbitrarily constrained in any way (spatio-temporal dimension, causal efficacy, and capacity to handle and process information). This is just a more precise (and less baggage-laden) way to describe the more conventional "personal God who is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent." And grant for a moment that all of this does in fact entail that God is good. Can you think of any other explanation for our universe and our selves that is more likely to result in our developing the capacity to seek and find actual truth?

...because of other statements you made such as 'Non-theism eviscerates any and all grounds for supposing our epistemic powers have any validity.' I simply do not understand why you would say that...

Let's do a little thought experiment. Suppose that we knew our earth was going to explode exactly 50 million years from now. And suppose that we had the technology to send out into space a thousand spaceships, each containing a thousand people (matched for gender and other compatible traits). Our technology was such that each ship was targeted toward a different but promising solar system, but it would take twenty million years to arrive at their destination, a few years to colonize the new planet(s), and twenty million years to return and rescue more people from our doomed earth. Let's also suppose that during the time each spaceship is away from the earth, evolutionary pressures operate on each respective population, such that their ability to discern and know truth is altered in some way, whereas the truth-discerning ability of the people who remain on earth is not significantly changed.

When all of these respective and isolated populations return to earth after some 40 million years, is it reasonable to assume, ceteris paribus, that some of them will have become significantly better at discerning truth than their earthbound counterparts? If so, what would that tell us about our present capacity to know and comprehend truth?

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 165:

That is indeed an argument from ignorance Joey - yours.

You just claimed that God's existence has no bearing on anything whether he exists or not.

Guess what you get to do now? Support your thesis statement.

I'll hop right on that, right that very minute you start displaying a willingness to address the data I present in support of it.

Until such time, I contend right here in front of God and everybody, that you'll do nothing more'n dismiss any data that doesn't suit your aims.

But y'all have a happy new year all the same!

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 170:

All previous disclaimers apply...

Let's suppose, for a moment...

"So's that I can present a hypothetical scenario that suits my aims."

Let's do a little thought experiment...

"So's that I can present a hypothetical scenario that suits my aims."

...
When all of these respective and isolated populations return to earth after some 40 million years, is it reasonable to assume, ceteris paribus, that some of them will have become significantly better at discerning truth than their earthbound counterparts? If so, what would that tell us about our present capacity to know and comprehend truth?

It tells us that if we all live to be 40 million years old, you might well just have hypotheticalled your way right on in there, and we oughta be proud about ya for it.

Or not, 'cause who here's gonna live to 40 million of 'em and say, "Well don't that beat all, that dude's hypotheticals are no more useful than teats on a bull."

Is this the state of the art in 'scholarly' theological thinking?

Or is it begging folks to not challenge 'theological scholars' for at least another 40 million years?

[Danmark]

Well, let me share a story from a friend and see if it clarifies the 'with' and 'without' God portion of the equation. My friend was a operator to a crisis call line, the last line of defense in many cases. In fact, the line she worked at in Alabama was decidedly secular, with professional counselors who pushed that the LAST thing that you should attempt in a crisis was to preach about God.

Indeed, with or without God, just got dumped and feeling suicidal? Preaching that its OK, God will fix it all ... isn't either helpful or true.

However, she got a particularly tough call one night, wherein the caller, disabled, abandoned by his family due to expense, time, etc., no friends, was literally on his last line and literally in tears on the brink of suicide as she tried each and every line that you did ... and this guy ... he truly had NOTHING. The last friend he talked to basically chewed him out and called him worthless. No family, fired from his place of employment, goals blocked by administrators who viewed his 'needs' as a disabled person as excessive ... tied up in courts, and pretty much spit out by the entire world.

She went through the entire list of tips to use and strategies to attempt and the guy had a cogent response to each and every one of them. In her words, the guys genuinely had no reason to live - and this is from someone used to dealing with people at the end of their rope ...

So she, being Christian, tried the only thing she had left. She offered to pray with the guy, not knowing what else to do ... and literally out of bullets so to speak.

So she prayed with them about his feelings, and asked for his guidance. And then hung up with nothing left to do. And then prayed again.

The next day, he called back. Something happened as a direct result of the prayer - as he put it - and his hope was rekindled, his burden lightened, and his purpose re-energized. He found faith.

When reason unanimously considered him worthless, faith gave him purpose. God found him relevant and important. One person, whose reason faltered as equally as his was left only with a desperate and humble appeal to God ... and the result was a saved life.

(She, BTW, got a butt chewing by the center director, who, beyond the butt chewing let it slide because even he was left dumbstruck and out of alternatives short of praying).

That is the difference of 'with' God rather than 'without God'. Though I realize that to doubters there are many who dismiss it as theatrics and pitiful stuff, but the reality is that it is true.

There are literally millions of people with a testimony of God and his efforts, and THAT is the difference between 'with' and 'without' God.

Indeed, science it seems further back up these stories. Indeed, those with faith seem, in the aggregate, to be much better in dealing with the stressors then those without faith.

So the 'without' God is an important piece of the puzzle that should be addressed.

That is not to say that those without God are suicidal or that they are prone to disaster when pushed ...

... but is a testimony of what we preach: that God created each any every one of us and that he loves each and every one us far more than any of us can comprehend. And when everything we hold dear is stripped away from us, when we are left with little more than literally ourselves and the sometimes futile struggles we engage in. It is then that this love is both most relevant, and most felt and appreciated.

Indeed, a marriage based on love without trails can be an enjoyable thing, but when trouble hits and your spouse stands by you, when they support you when no one else will - then you know not just that you love, but that you are really loved in turn.

The same applies for God. He tells us that all of this, including his distance is for us and created out of love. And when it is stripped away bare ... then, in humbleness and often in desperation, we can see it clearly. And we appreciate it.

It's a great story. I believe that when we step outside ourselves, out of our egos and just do, we can do great things . . . as long as we do not think that 'we' are doing it.

I'll tell a similar story, then close with something that I think could easily be used against me, but I will tell it because it is what I believed.

I do not get many overtly suicidal calls from clients, tho' I talk to many in the jails who feel hopeless, but I recently had two clients call me at home, just a day apart.

The second call was from a beautiful asian girl who had a 3 month old baby. She was awaiting sentencing. She gave every appearance of really having her act together. She had stolen a considerable sum from her employer. He had actually forgiven her, but the police got involved and there was no going back. We worked it all out, with the help of her parents, paid back some of the restitution and got a good result despite the large amount involved.

She called in crisis. She had fooled me and a very good, experience prosecutor, her family, her employer. Her charm and youthful healthy beauty may have had something to do with it. She had a horrible drug addiction to pain killers, the kind of addiction where going cold turkey may kill you. Because of that most treatment centers in our region will not even accept paying private patients due to the liability issues.

After all of this was over, so we thought, she stole from her parents again. I did not know her well. She was just another court appointed client I had only seen for a few minutes at each court hearing [the facts were so clear and admitted, there was no reason for lengthy sessions preparing for trial]. Even tho' she barely knew me, apparently she had burned all of her other bridges, so she called me that night.

I don't know what I said. I just mostly listened. I had no formula. She was a Christian, [tho' I don't remember when I learned that, whether it was during that call or later], but obviously I could not pray with her, nor offer some religious advice [I am scrupulously honest with clients and if I think it appropriate, I may tell them something along the lines that, although I am an atheist, I believe there is much wisdom in the Bible and if they they are believers, they may find solace there, and should call someone from their church. I may even tell them my secular understanding of why certain things in the Bible help, regardless of supernatural explanations]

At any rate I listened and encouraged as I could for an hour and made sure she had someone with her. I promised to meet her the next morning at the jail and got her to agree to call or email me every day.

Tho' she credits me for 'saving her life' it is not true. I just listened. She saved herself.

At any rate she finally got the help she needed. We had several emergency continuances and worked with the jail to save her job through work release. She found a new program that would give her some transitional medications while she detoxed safely and now because of her the Court is aware of the new program available. She seems happy and healthy and her baby girl is now thriving at 8 months.

Things turned out well, but I have to admit that if a person really has nothing to live for, is in pain and irrevocably disabled and has made a thoughtful, sober decision that life is no longer worth living, I certainly would not automatically try to talk them out of suicide. I might even try to make them comfortable with there decision. I might tease them, even tell a joke or try to be amusing... anything. What's to lose? Why not take a chance?

[TheTruth101]

....
Indeed, what do atheists do when they are actually facing a crisis? Certainly don't pray? You have no doctrine of coping? So what do you do?

It's a fair question, an important question. I'll try to answer in a non argumentative way that I won't pretend is exclusive to atheists. These are things I have actually done, or recommended .

Have another drink and go to bed. Things are always better in the morning. This one is especially important if you have a loaded gun in the house and are considering the easy way out.

Talk to a friend. He is likely to say something funny that puts things in perspective and lets you know you are not the first person to deal with this issue.

Think of your father, remembering that he went through a lot worse than you ever have and considered his situation a 'mere inconvenience' while you are thinking it's the end of the world. I don't recommend this one unless you have a sense of humor and can make fun of yourself, because otherwise comparing yourself to your father could make things worse.

Find someone who needs help and go DO IT! It will take the focus off of yourself and you're likely to find out you have it pretty good compared to the next guy.

Remember the last time you had a crisis, or the last several times. Remember how well things turned out, and how hopeless it seemed at first. Then have that drink and go to bed.

Go down to the nearest 'old folks home' and walk around for a while. Try not to think about how this is how you're going to end up. Focus on the idea that you are not there yet. If you already live in an old folks home . . . then . . . uh . . . well, you could tell me to shut the #@&* up, or you could plan an escape. You don't actually have to go to the trouble of escaping. Just planning it could be fun. Then have a drink and go back to bed. . . but first load up a bed pan and put it where that ##@#%%#$'ing night nurse you hate is likely to step in it.

Sometimes nothing will work. That's ok. It's an excuse to just be alone somewhere and cry and wallow in self pity and hopelessness. Pretty soon you'll get tired of that and get up and kick yourself where it will do the most good and get on with life.

Picture a Marx Bros. routine, then remember W.C. Fields who said,
'It's a funny old world. Man's lucky if he gets out of it alive.

Its clear here an Atheist in general turn to Alchohal, Alchohal, and well, Alchohal.

Another method an Atheist in general chooses I see from this post is, self feeding and giving in remenrance or having in mind that one will recieve something back in midst of it. Which is, well, not so genuine as to the nature of giving just to give.

Personally, I had that experience myself when I was in my early 20's in college.
I havent had a drink in awhile, but I guess if it floats your boat to get away from the troubles of the world, so be it.

[stubbornone]

From Post 165:

That is indeed an argument from ignorance Joey - yours.

You just claimed that God's existence has no bearing on anything whether he exists or not.

Guess what you get to do now? Support your thesis statement.

I'll hop right on that, right that very minute you start displaying a willingness to address the data I present in support of it.

Until such time, I contend right here in front of God and everybody, that you'll do nothing more'n dismiss any data that doesn't suit your aims.

But y'all have a happy new year all the same!

Its been addressed, and indeed, you have yet to address any of the counter point Joey. Once again, I am shocked at how easily atheists will play the victim card.

Unfortunately Joey, not only do the forum rules require you to make your case, so to does the fact that you basely insulted a man and claimed he was ignorant.

In either case, no more excuses.

If indeed you have anything else?

[McCulloch]

Oh the irony and the projection!

First you admit to a daily brain washing technique, then you project your own brainwashing and claim others must be doing it.

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[Clownboat]

....
Indeed, what do atheists do when they are actually facing a crisis? Certainly don't pray? You have no doctrine of coping? So what do you do?

It's a fair question, an important question. I'll try to answer in a non argumentative way that I won't pretend is exclusive to atheists. These are things I have actually done, or recommended .

Have another drink and go to bed. Things are always better in the morning. This one is especially important if you have a loaded gun in the house and are considering the easy way out.

Talk to a friend. He is likely to say something funny that puts things in perspective and lets you know you are not the first person to deal with this issue.

Think of your father, remembering that he went through a lot worse than you ever have and considered his situation a 'mere inconvenience' while you are thinking it's the end of the world. I don't recommend this one unless you have a sense of humor and can make fun of yourself, because otherwise comparing yourself to your father could make things worse.

Find someone who needs help and go DO IT! It will take the focus off of yourself and you're likely to find out you have it pretty good compared to the next guy.

Remember the last time you had a crisis, or the last several times. Remember how well things turned out, and how hopeless it seemed at first. Then have that drink and go to bed.

Go down to the nearest 'old folks home' and walk around for a while. Try not to think about how this is how you're going to end up. Focus on the idea that you are not there yet. If you already live in an old folks home . . . then . . . uh . . . well, you could tell me to shut the #@&* up, or you could plan an escape. You don't actually have to go to the trouble of escaping. Just planning it could be fun. Then have a drink and go back to bed. . . but first load up a bed pan and put it where that ##@#%%#$'ing night nurse you hate is likely to step in it.

Sometimes nothing will work. That's ok. It's an excuse to just be alone somewhere and cry and wallow in self pity and hopelessness. Pretty soon you'll get tired of that and get up and kick yourself where it will do the most good and get on with life.

Picture a Marx Bros. routine, then remember W.C. Fields who said,
'It's a funny old world. Man's lucky if he gets out of it alive.

Well, let me share a story from a friend and see if it clarifies the 'with' and 'without' God portion of the equation. My friend was a operator to a crisis call line, the last line of defense in many cases. In fact, the line she worked at in Alabama was decidedly secular, with professional counselors who pushed that the LAST thing that you should attempt in a crisis was to preach about God.

Indeed, with or without God, just got dumped and feeling suicidal? Preaching that its OK, God will fix it all ... isn't either helpful or true.

However, she got a particularly tough call one night, wherein the caller, disabled, abandoned by his family due to expense, time, etc., no friends, was literally on his last line and literally in tears on the brink of suicide as she tried each and every line that you did ... and this guy ... he truly had NOTHING. The last friend he talked to basically chewed him out and called him worthless. No family, fired from his place of employment, goals blocked by administrators who viewed his 'needs' as a disabled person as excessive ... tied up in courts, and pretty much spit out by the entire world.

She went through the entire list of tips to use and strategies to attempt and the guy had a cogent response to each and every one of them. In her words, the guys genuinely had no reason to live - and this is from someone used to dealing with people at the end of their rope ...

So she, being Christian, tried the only thing she had left. She offered to pray with the guy, not knowing what else to do ... and literally out of bullets so to speak.

So she prayed with them about his feelings, and asked for his guidance. And then hung up with nothing left to do. And then prayed again.

The next day, he called back. Something happened as a direct result of the prayer - as he put it - and his hope was rekindled, his burden lightened, and his purpose re-energized. He found faith.

When reason unanimously considered him worthless, faith gave him purpose. God found him relevant and important. One person, whose reason faltered as equally as his was left only with a desperate and humble appeal to God ... and the result was a saved life.

(She, BTW, got a butt chewing by the center director, who, beyond the butt chewing let it slide because even he was left dumbstruck and out of alternatives short of praying).

That is the difference of 'with' God rather than 'without God'. Though I realize that to doubters there are many who dismiss it as theatrics and pitiful stuff, but the reality is that it is true.

There are literally millions of people with a testimony of God and his efforts, and THAT is the difference between 'with' and 'without' God.

Indeed, science it seems further back up these stories. Indeed, those with faith seem, in the aggregate, to be much better in dealing with the stressors then those without faith.

So the 'without' God is an important piece of the puzzle that should be addressed.

That is not to say that those without God are suicidal or that they are prone to disaster when pushed ...

... but is a testimony of what we preach: that God created each any every one of us and that he loves each and every one us far more than any of us can comprehend. And when everything we hold dear is stripped away from us, when we are left with little more than literally ourselves and the sometimes futile struggles we engage in. It is then that this love is both most relevant, and most felt and appreciated.

Indeed, a marriage based on love without trails can be an enjoyable thing, but when trouble hits and your spouse stands by you, when they support you when no one else will - then you know not just that you love, but that you are really loved in turn.

The same applies for God. He tells us that all of this, including his distance is for us and created out of love. And when it is stripped away bare ... then, in humbleness and often in desperation, we can see it clearly. And we appreciate it.

Religions help some people, I will not argue that. However, that does not make them true.

Example, placebos can help people, but placebos (say a sugar pill) themselves do not do the helping.

I fully admit that many people in dire straights can be helped by religion, and that goes for all religions which makes you trying to make it about Christianity (which it seems like you are doing above) futile.

Or... do you disagree that false beliefs can help?

[stubbornone]

....
Indeed, what do atheists do when they are actually facing a crisis? Certainly don't pray? You have no doctrine of coping? So what do you do?

It's a fair question, an important question. I'll try to answer in a non argumentative way that I won't pretend is exclusive to atheists. These are things I have actually done, or recommended .

Have another drink and go to bed. Things are always better in the morning. This one is especially important if you have a loaded gun in the house and are considering the easy way out.

Talk to a friend. He is likely to say something funny that puts things in perspective and lets you know you are not the first person to deal with this issue.

Think of your father, remembering that he went through a lot worse than you ever have and considered his situation a 'mere inconvenience' while you are thinking it's the end of the world. I don't recommend this one unless you have a sense of humor and can make fun of yourself, because otherwise comparing yourself to your father could make things worse.

Find someone who needs help and go DO IT! It will take the focus off of yourself and you're likely to find out you have it pretty good compared to the next guy.

Remember the last time you had a crisis, or the last several times. Remember how well things turned out, and how hopeless it seemed at first. Then have that drink and go to bed.

Go down to the nearest 'old folks home' and walk around for a while. Try not to think about how this is how you're going to end up. Focus on the idea that you are not there yet. If you already live in an old folks home . . . then . . . uh . . . well, you could tell me to shut the #@&* up, or you could plan an escape. You don't actually have to go to the trouble of escaping. Just planning it could be fun. Then have a drink and go back to bed. . . but first load up a bed pan and put it where that ##@#%%#$'ing night nurse you hate is likely to step in it.

Sometimes nothing will work. That's ok. It's an excuse to just be alone somewhere and cry and wallow in self pity and hopelessness. Pretty soon you'll get tired of that and get up and kick yourself where it will do the most good and get on with life.

Picture a Marx Bros. routine, then remember W.C. Fields who said,
'It's a funny old world. Man's lucky if he gets out of it alive.

Well, let me share a story from a friend and see if it clarifies the 'with' and 'without' God portion of the equation. My friend was a operator to a crisis call line, the last line of defense in many cases. In fact, the line she worked at in Alabama was decidedly secular, with professional counselors who pushed that the LAST thing that you should attempt in a crisis was to preach about God.

Indeed, with or without God, just got dumped and feeling suicidal? Preaching that its OK, God will fix it all ... isn't either helpful or true.

However, she got a particularly tough call one night, wherein the caller, disabled, abandoned by his family due to expense, time, etc., no friends, was literally on his last line and literally in tears on the brink of suicide as she tried each and every line that you did ... and this guy ... he truly had NOTHING. The last friend he talked to basically chewed him out and called him worthless. No family, fired from his place of employment, goals blocked by administrators who viewed his 'needs' as a disabled person as excessive ... tied up in courts, and pretty much spit out by the entire world.

She went through the entire list of tips to use and strategies to attempt and the guy had a cogent response to each and every one of them. In her words, the guys genuinely had no reason to live - and this is from someone used to dealing with people at the end of their rope ...

So she, being Christian, tried the only thing she had left. She offered to pray with the guy, not knowing what else to do ... and literally out of bullets so to speak.

So she prayed with them about his feelings, and asked for his guidance. And then hung up with nothing left to do. And then prayed again.

The next day, he called back. Something happened as a direct result of the prayer - as he put it - and his hope was rekindled, his burden lightened, and his purpose re-energized. He found faith.

When reason unanimously considered him worthless, faith gave him purpose. God found him relevant and important. One person, whose reason faltered as equally as his was left only with a desperate and humble appeal to God ... and the result was a saved life.

(She, BTW, got a butt chewing by the center director, who, beyond the butt chewing let it slide because even he was left dumbstruck and out of alternatives short of praying).

That is the difference of 'with' God rather than 'without God'. Though I realize that to doubters there are many who dismiss it as theatrics and pitiful stuff, but the reality is that it is true.

There are literally millions of people with a testimony of God and his efforts, and THAT is the difference between 'with' and 'without' God.

Indeed, science it seems further back up these stories. Indeed, those with faith seem, in the aggregate, to be much better in dealing with the stressors then those without faith.

So the 'without' God is an important piece of the puzzle that should be addressed.

That is not to say that those without God are suicidal or that they are prone to disaster when pushed ...

... but is a testimony of what we preach: that God created each any every one of us and that he loves each and every one us far more than any of us can comprehend. And when everything we hold dear is stripped away from us, when we are left with little more than literally ourselves and the sometimes futile struggles we engage in. It is then that this love is both most relevant, and most felt and appreciated.

Indeed, a marriage based on love without trails can be an enjoyable thing, but when trouble hits and your spouse stands by you, when they support you when no one else will - then you know not just that you love, but that you are really loved in turn.

The same applies for God. He tells us that all of this, including his distance is for us and created out of love. And when it is stripped away bare ... then, in humbleness and often in desperation, we can see it clearly. And we appreciate it.

Religions help some people, I will not argue that. However, that does not make them true.

Example, placebos can help people, but placebos (say a sugar pill) themselves do not do the helping.

I fully admit that many people in dire straights can be helped by religion, and that goes for all religions which makes you trying to make it about Christianity (which it seems like you are doing above) futile.

Or... do you disagree that false beliefs can help?

Nor does it make them false either ... or a placebo ... isn't that simply YOUR faith's version of it?

And isn't that just offering an excuse for the miracles that your faith says should not be happening but are anyway?

Tell me, why is your faith, which has zero evidence, and seems tl be based entirely in denial, better than .. any faith? Affirmation?

For no particular reason, its just right?

[Clownboat]

....
Indeed, what do atheists do when they are actually facing a crisis? Certainly don't pray? You have no doctrine of coping? So what do you do?

It's a fair question, an important question. I'll try to answer in a non argumentative way that I won't pretend is exclusive to atheists. These are things I have actually done, or recommended .

Have another drink and go to bed. Things are always better in the morning. This one is especially important if you have a loaded gun in the house and are considering the easy way out.

Talk to a friend. He is likely to say something funny that puts things in perspective and lets you know you are not the first person to deal with this issue.

Think of your father, remembering that he went through a lot worse than you ever have and considered his situation a 'mere inconvenience' while you are thinking it's the end of the world. I don't recommend this one unless you have a sense of humor and can make fun of yourself, because otherwise comparing yourself to your father could make things worse.

Find someone who needs help and go DO IT! It will take the focus off of yourself and you're likely to find out you have it pretty good compared to the next guy.

Remember the last time you had a crisis, or the last several times. Remember how well things turned out, and how hopeless it seemed at first. Then have that drink and go to bed.

Go down to the nearest 'old folks home' and walk around for a while. Try not to think about how this is how you're going to end up. Focus on the idea that you are not there yet. If you already live in an old folks home . . . then . . . uh . . . well, you could tell me to shut the #@&* up, or you could plan an escape. You don't actually have to go to the trouble of escaping. Just planning it could be fun. Then have a drink and go back to bed. . . but first load up a bed pan and put it where that ##@#%%#$'ing night nurse you hate is likely to step in it.

Sometimes nothing will work. That's ok. It's an excuse to just be alone somewhere and cry and wallow in self pity and hopelessness. Pretty soon you'll get tired of that and get up and kick yourself where it will do the most good and get on with life.

Picture a Marx Bros. routine, then remember W.C. Fields who said,
'It's a funny old world. Man's lucky if he gets out of it alive.

Well, let me share a story from a friend and see if it clarifies the 'with' and 'without' God portion of the equation. My friend was a operator to a crisis call line, the last line of defense in many cases. In fact, the line she worked at in Alabama was decidedly secular, with professional counselors who pushed that the LAST thing that you should attempt in a crisis was to preach about God.

Indeed, with or without God, just got dumped and feeling suicidal? Preaching that its OK, God will fix it all ... isn't either helpful or true.

However, she got a particularly tough call one night, wherein the caller, disabled, abandoned by his family due to expense, time, etc., no friends, was literally on his last line and literally in tears on the brink of suicide as she tried each and every line that you did ... and this guy ... he truly had NOTHING. The last friend he talked to basically chewed him out and called him worthless. No family, fired from his place of employment, goals blocked by administrators who viewed his 'needs' as a disabled person as excessive ... tied up in courts, and pretty much spit out by the entire world.

She went through the entire list of tips to use and strategies to attempt and the guy had a cogent response to each and every one of them. In her words, the guys genuinely had no reason to live - and this is from someone used to dealing with people at the end of their rope ...

So she, being Christian, tried the only thing she had left. She offered to pray with the guy, not knowing what else to do ... and literally out of bullets so to speak.

So she prayed with them about his feelings, and asked for his guidance. And then hung up with nothing left to do. And then prayed again.

The next day, he called back. Something happened as a direct result of the prayer - as he put it - and his hope was rekindled, his burden lightened, and his purpose re-energized. He found faith.

When reason unanimously considered him worthless, faith gave him purpose. God found him relevant and important. One person, whose reason faltered as equally as his was left only with a desperate and humble appeal to God ... and the result was a saved life.

(She, BTW, got a butt chewing by the center director, who, beyond the butt chewing let it slide because even he was left dumbstruck and out of alternatives short of praying).

That is the difference of 'with' God rather than 'without God'. Though I realize that to doubters there are many who dismiss it as theatrics and pitiful stuff, but the reality is that it is true.

There are literally millions of people with a testimony of God and his efforts, and THAT is the difference between 'with' and 'without' God.

Indeed, science it seems further back up these stories. Indeed, those with faith seem, in the aggregate, to be much better in dealing with the stressors then those without faith.

So the 'without' God is an important piece of the puzzle that should be addressed.

That is not to say that those without God are suicidal or that they are prone to disaster when pushed ...

... but is a testimony of what we preach: that God created each any every one of us and that he loves each and every one us far more than any of us can comprehend. And when everything we hold dear is stripped away from us, when we are left with little more than literally ourselves and the sometimes futile struggles we engage in. It is then that this love is both most relevant, and most felt and appreciated.

Indeed, a marriage based on love without trails can be an enjoyable thing, but when trouble hits and your spouse stands by you, when they support you when no one else will - then you know not just that you love, but that you are really loved in turn.

The same applies for God. He tells us that all of this, including his distance is for us and created out of love. And when it is stripped away bare ... then, in humbleness and often in desperation, we can see it clearly. And we appreciate it.

Religions help some people, I will not argue that. However, that does not make them true.

Example, placebos can help people, but placebos (say a sugar pill) themselves do not do the helping.

I fully admit that many people in dire straights can be helped by religion, and that goes for all religions which makes you trying to make it about Christianity (which it seems like you are doing above) futile.

Or... do you disagree that false beliefs can help?

Nor does it make them false either ... or a placebo ...

I never claimed that it did, so this is just a straw man.

isn't that simply YOUR faith's version of it?

Please explain "my faith" and "what I have faith in", because you lost me here.

And isn't that just offering an excuse for the miracles that your faith says should not be happening but are anyway?

What are you even talking about?

Tell me, why is your faith, which has zero evidence, and seems tl be based entirely in denial, better than .. any faith? Affirmation?

I'm still totally lost. What faith? What faith claims have you seen me make?

For no particular reason, its just right?

I submit that stubbornone is just trying to level the playing field here by claiming I have faith in some un-evidenced thing. I think we can agree that he does, but that is on him. I take no responsibility for having faith in something when I don't even know what it is I am having faith in.