Are Atheists Potentially Morally Superior to Theists?

[Danmark]

The proposition is that atheists have the potential of being morally superior to theists because to the extent the atheist does good works, he does them because he wants to, because she thinks it right. Whereas the theist acts out of religious necessity or compulsion; the threat of hell or deprivation of heaven.

[Danmark]

....
Indeed, what do atheists do when they are actually facing a crisis? Certainly don't pray? You have no doctrine of coping? So what do you do?

It's a fair question, an important question. I'll try to answer in a non argumentative way that I won't pretend is exclusive to atheists. These are things I have actually done, or recommended .

Have another drink and go to bed. Things are always better in the morning. This one is especially important if you have a loaded gun in the house and are considering the easy way out.

Talk to a friend. He is likely to say something funny that puts things in perspective and lets you know you are not the first person to deal with this issue.

Think of your father, remembering that he went through a lot worse than you ever have and considered his situation a 'mere inconvenience' while you are thinking it's the end of the world. I don't recommend this one unless you have a sense of humor and can make fun of yourself, because otherwise comparing yourself to your father could make things worse.

Find someone who needs help and go DO IT! It will take the focus off of yourself and you're likely to find out you have it pretty good compared to the next guy.

Remember the last time you had a crisis, or the last several times. Remember how well things turned out, and how hopeless it seemed at first. Then have that drink and go to bed.

Go down to the nearest 'old folks home' and walk around for a while. Try not to think about how this is how you're going to end up. Focus on the idea that you are not there yet. If you already live in an old folks home . . . then . . . uh . . . well, you could tell me to shut the #@&* up, or you could plan an escape. You don't actually have to go to the trouble of escaping. Just planning it could be fun. Then have a drink and go back to bed. . . but first load up a bed pan and put it where that ##@#%%#$'ing night nurse you hate is likely to step in it.

Sometimes nothing will work. That's ok. It's an excuse to just be alone somewhere and cry and wallow in self pity and hopelessness. Pretty soon you'll get tired of that and get up and kick yourself where it will do the most good and get on with life.

Picture a Marx Bros. routine, then remember W.C. Fields who said,
'It's a funny old world. Man's lucky if he gets out of it alive.

Nor does it make them false either ... or a placebo ... isn't that simply YOUR faith's version of it?

And isn't that just offering an excuse for the miracles that your faith says should not be happening but are anyway?

Tell me, why is your faith, which has zero evidence, and seems tl be based entirely in denial, better than .. any faith? Affirmation?

For no particular reason, its just right?

While either 'faith' offers an explanation as to causation, that is the heart of all of these issues about theism vs. atheism.

Regardless of where one comes down on the likelihood of either position being correct, they are certainly both possibilities, no matter how remote an advocate may think that possibility is.

I posted my suggestions above for how an atheist may deal with a crisis with several reasons in mind. One reason was that I really think those suggestions are good ones that anyone can use. Another was simply humor. [Apparently I'm the only one who thot it might be funny ] Another was to offer an olive branch. Some of this discussion has become too personal and I share responsibility for that. So I wanted to respond straightforwardly.

For that reason and others, I saved as a draft and did not send a response I wrote last night. Since I have been privately urged to send it anyway, I'll do so without comment:


I'll tell a similar story, then close with something that I think could easily be used against me, but I will tell it because it is what I believed.

I do not get many overtly suicidal calls from clients, tho' I talk to many in the jails who feel hopeless, but I recently had two clients call me at home, just a day apart.

The second call was from a beautiful asian girl who had a 3 month old baby. She was awaiting sentencing. She gave every appearance of really having her act together. She had stolen a considerable sum from her employer. He had actually forgiven her, but the police got involved and there was no going back. We worked it all out, with the help of her parents, paid back some of the restitution and got a good result despite the large amount involved.

She called in crisis. She had fooled me and a very good, experience prosecutor, her family, her employer. Her charm and youthful healthy beauty may have had something to do with it. She had a horrible drug addiction to pain killers, the kind of addiction where going cold turkey may kill you. Because of that most treatment centers in our region will not even accept paying private patients due to the liability issues.

After all of this was over, so we thought, she stole from her parents again. I did not know her well. She was just another court appointed client I had only seen for a few minutes at each court hearing [the facts were so clear and admitted, there was no reason for lengthy sessions preparing for trial]. Even tho' she barely knew me, apparently she had burned all of her other bridges, so she called me that night.

I don't remember exactly what I said. I just mostly listened, giving rational feedback. I had no formula. She was a Christian, [tho' I don't remember when I learned that, whether it was during that call or later], but obviously I could not pray with her, nor offer some religious advice [I am scrupulously honest with clients and if I think it appropriate, I may tell them something along the lines that, although I am an atheist, I believe there is much wisdom in the Bible and if they they are believers, they may find solace there, and should call someone from their church. I may even tell them my secular understanding of why certain things in the Bible help, regardless of supernatural explanations]

At any rate I listened and encouraged as I could for an hour and made sure she had someone with her. I promised to meet her the next morning at the jail and got her to agree to call or email me every day.

Tho' she credits me for 'saving her life' it is not true. I just listened. She saved herself.

At any rate she finally got the help she needed. We had several emergency continuances and worked with the jail to save her job through work release. She found a new program that would give her some transitional medications while she detoxed safely and now because of her the Court is aware of the new program available. She seems happy and healthy and her baby girl is now thriving at 8 months.

Things turned out well, but I have to admit that if a person really has nothing to live for, is in pain and irrevocably disabled and has made a thoughtful, sober decision that life is no longer worth living, I certainly would not automatically try to talk them out of suicide. I might even try to make them comfortable with their decision. I might tease them, even tell a joke or try to be amusing... anything. What's to lose? Why not take a chance?

BTW although I am currently on a sabbatical [sounds fancier that 'goofing off' or 'semi retired] just this morning I received yet another call from a recent client. Unfortunately she did not call me at the moment of truth. She called from the hospital where she was taken for an overdose suicide attempt the day before she was to report for 6 months of work crew. She too had a baby a couple months ago.

I mention that case as well, just as a reminder to us all that there is a lot of pain out there and we will frequently have the privilege to help and in doing so, to help ourselves.

I'm making no religious or anti religious statement about anything. Just trying to find that common ground we can all share.

[stubbornone]

....
Indeed, what do atheists do when they are actually facing a crisis? Certainly don't pray? You have no doctrine of coping? So what do you do?

It's a fair question, an important question. I'll try to answer in a non argumentative way that I won't pretend is exclusive to atheists. These are things I have actually done, or recommended .

Have another drink and go to bed. Things are always better in the morning. This one is especially important if you have a loaded gun in the house and are considering the easy way out.

Talk to a friend. He is likely to say something funny that puts things in perspective and lets you know you are not the first person to deal with this issue.

Think of your father, remembering that he went through a lot worse than you ever have and considered his situation a 'mere inconvenience' while you are thinking it's the end of the world. I don't recommend this one unless you have a sense of humor and can make fun of yourself, because otherwise comparing yourself to your father could make things worse.

Find someone who needs help and go DO IT! It will take the focus off of yourself and you're likely to find out you have it pretty good compared to the next guy.

Remember the last time you had a crisis, or the last several times. Remember how well things turned out, and how hopeless it seemed at first. Then have that drink and go to bed.

Go down to the nearest 'old folks home' and walk around for a while. Try not to think about how this is how you're going to end up. Focus on the idea that you are not there yet. If you already live in an old folks home . . . then . . . uh . . . well, you could tell me to shut the #@&* up, or you could plan an escape. You don't actually have to go to the trouble of escaping. Just planning it could be fun. Then have a drink and go back to bed. . . but first load up a bed pan and put it where that ##@#%%#$'ing night nurse you hate is likely to step in it.

Sometimes nothing will work. That's ok. It's an excuse to just be alone somewhere and cry and wallow in self pity and hopelessness. Pretty soon you'll get tired of that and get up and kick yourself where it will do the most good and get on with life.

Picture a Marx Bros. routine, then remember W.C. Fields who said,
'It's a funny old world. Man's lucky if he gets out of it alive.

Well, let me share a story from a friend and see if it clarifies the 'with' and 'without' God portion of the equation. My friend was a operator to a crisis call line, the last line of defense in many cases. In fact, the line she worked at in Alabama was decidedly secular, with professional counselors who pushed that the LAST thing that you should attempt in a crisis was to preach about God.

Indeed, with or without God, just got dumped and feeling suicidal? Preaching that its OK, God will fix it all ... isn't either helpful or true.

However, she got a particularly tough call one night, wherein the caller, disabled, abandoned by his family due to expense, time, etc., no friends, was literally on his last line and literally in tears on the brink of suicide as she tried each and every line that you did ... and this guy ... he truly had NOTHING. The last friend he talked to basically chewed him out and called him worthless. No family, fired from his place of employment, goals blocked by administrators who viewed his 'needs' as a disabled person as excessive ... tied up in courts, and pretty much spit out by the entire world.

She went through the entire list of tips to use and strategies to attempt and the guy had a cogent response to each and every one of them. In her words, the guys genuinely had no reason to live - and this is from someone used to dealing with people at the end of their rope ...

So she, being Christian, tried the only thing she had left. She offered to pray with the guy, not knowing what else to do ... and literally out of bullets so to speak.

So she prayed with them about his feelings, and asked for his guidance. And then hung up with nothing left to do. And then prayed again.

The next day, he called back. Something happened as a direct result of the prayer - as he put it - and his hope was rekindled, his burden lightened, and his purpose re-energized. He found faith.

When reason unanimously considered him worthless, faith gave him purpose. God found him relevant and important. One person, whose reason faltered as equally as his was left only with a desperate and humble appeal to God ... and the result was a saved life.

(She, BTW, got a butt chewing by the center director, who, beyond the butt chewing let it slide because even he was left dumbstruck and out of alternatives short of praying).

That is the difference of 'with' God rather than 'without God'. Though I realize that to doubters there are many who dismiss it as theatrics and pitiful stuff, but the reality is that it is true.

There are literally millions of people with a testimony of God and his efforts, and THAT is the difference between 'with' and 'without' God.

Indeed, science it seems further back up these stories. Indeed, those with faith seem, in the aggregate, to be much better in dealing with the stressors then those without faith.

So the 'without' God is an important piece of the puzzle that should be addressed.

That is not to say that those without God are suicidal or that they are prone to disaster when pushed ...

... but is a testimony of what we preach: that God created each any every one of us and that he loves each and every one us far more than any of us can comprehend. And when everything we hold dear is stripped away from us, when we are left with little more than literally ourselves and the sometimes futile struggles we engage in. It is then that this love is both most relevant, and most felt and appreciated.

Indeed, a marriage based on love without trails can be an enjoyable thing, but when trouble hits and your spouse stands by you, when they support you when no one else will - then you know not just that you love, but that you are really loved in turn.

The same applies for God. He tells us that all of this, including his distance is for us and created out of love. And when it is stripped away bare ... then, in humbleness and often in desperation, we can see it clearly. And we appreciate it.

Religions help some people, I will not argue that. However, that does not make them true.

Example, placebos can help people, but placebos (say a sugar pill) themselves do not do the helping.

I fully admit that many people in dire straights can be helped by religion, and that goes for all religions which makes you trying to make it about Christianity (which it seems like you are doing above) futile.

Or... do you disagree that false beliefs can help?

Nor does it make them false either ... or a placebo ...

I never claimed that it did, so this is just a straw man.

isn't that simply YOUR faith's version of it?

Please explain "my faith" and "what I have faith in", because you lost me here.

And isn't that just offering an excuse for the miracles that your faith says should not be happening but are anyway?

What are you even talking about?

Tell me, why is your faith, which has zero evidence, and seems tl be based entirely in denial, better than .. any faith? Affirmation?

I'm still totally lost. What faith? What faith claims have you seen me make?

For no particular reason, its just right?

I submit that stubbornone is just trying to level the playing field here by claiming I have faith in some un-evidenced thing. I think we can agree that he does, but that is on him. I take no responsibility for having faith in something when I don't even know what it is I am having faith in.

The ever changing goal posts of atheism.

You claimed that this 'doesn't make it true' and that it is a placebo ... which certainly seems to indicate that you don't think its true. Yet pointing that out is strawman?

And now you deny faith in atheism? So, once again, you are going to ask Christians to spell out the proof for God, which has been done a million times for atheists, along with the HONEST examination of evidence is inconclusive, requiring a leap of faith ...

... but atheists have no faith, and neither do they have any evidence? Nor does their evidenced based position even have a burden of proof? They aren't actually claiming anything?

And we'll have that debate YET AGAIN, and be lead to the same obvious conclusion that atheists cannot disprove God ... for what reason?

So you can deny logic and while calling yourself logical and Christians illogical?

That sounds more like a personal choice than a evidenced based conclusion.

But that is atheism.

And indeed, the utter inability to spell out a coherent position as in, "Gee, that doesn't make it true ... but I am not saying it is wrong either! Or a placebo, which I just said it was ... er, what exactly is my position again?"

Why should we treat your position as a logical position?

Indeed a logical position consists of ... from an atheist website mind you ...

A premise is a statement (a sentence that is either true or false) that is offered in support of the claim being made, which is the conclusion (which is also a sentence that is either true or false).

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

Now, what claim are making and attempting to support?

That miraculous stores mean nothing? That there is or is not something to these things? That faith does not give a boost to resiliency in times of crisis? What?

Or is that atheism is not a faith? As in whatchutalkingaboutwillis?

Please establish a position. Its what honest/logical people do.

[stubbornone]

....
Indeed, what do atheists do when they are actually facing a crisis? Certainly don't pray? You have no doctrine of coping? So what do you do?

It's a fair question, an important question. I'll try to answer in a non argumentative way that I won't pretend is exclusive to atheists. These are things I have actually done, or recommended .

Have another drink and go to bed. Things are always better in the morning. This one is especially important if you have a loaded gun in the house and are considering the easy way out.

Talk to a friend. He is likely to say something funny that puts things in perspective and lets you know you are not the first person to deal with this issue.

Think of your father, remembering that he went through a lot worse than you ever have and considered his situation a 'mere inconvenience' while you are thinking it's the end of the world. I don't recommend this one unless you have a sense of humor and can make fun of yourself, because otherwise comparing yourself to your father could make things worse.

Find someone who needs help and go DO IT! It will take the focus off of yourself and you're likely to find out you have it pretty good compared to the next guy.

Remember the last time you had a crisis, or the last several times. Remember how well things turned out, and how hopeless it seemed at first. Then have that drink and go to bed.

Go down to the nearest 'old folks home' and walk around for a while. Try not to think about how this is how you're going to end up. Focus on the idea that you are not there yet. If you already live in an old folks home . . . then . . . uh . . . well, you could tell me to shut the #@&* up, or you could plan an escape. You don't actually have to go to the trouble of escaping. Just planning it could be fun. Then have a drink and go back to bed. . . but first load up a bed pan and put it where that ##@#%%#$'ing night nurse you hate is likely to step in it.

Sometimes nothing will work. That's ok. It's an excuse to just be alone somewhere and cry and wallow in self pity and hopelessness. Pretty soon you'll get tired of that and get up and kick yourself where it will do the most good and get on with life.

Picture a Marx Bros. routine, then remember W.C. Fields who said,
'It's a funny old world. Man's lucky if he gets out of it alive.

Nor does it make them false either ... or a placebo ... isn't that simply YOUR faith's version of it?

And isn't that just offering an excuse for the miracles that your faith says should not be happening but are anyway?

Tell me, why is your faith, which has zero evidence, and seems tl be based entirely in denial, better than .. any faith? Affirmation?

For no particular reason, its just right?

While either 'faith' offers an explanation as to causation, that is the heart of all of these issues about theism vs. atheism.

Regardless of where one comes down on the likelihood of either position being correct, they are certainly both possibilities, no matter how remote an advocate may think that possibility is.

I posted my suggestions above for how an atheist may deal with a crisis with several reasons in mind. One reason was that I really think those suggestions are good ones that anyone can use. Another was simply humor. [Apparently I'm the only one who thot it might be funny ] Another was to offer an olive branch. Some of this discussion has become too personal and I share responsibility for that. So I wanted to respond straightforwardly.

For that reason and others, I saved as a draft and did not send a response I wrote last night. Since I have been privately urged to send it anyway, I'll do so without comment:


I'll tell a similar story, then close with something that I think could easily be used against me, but I will tell it because it is what I believed.

I do not get many overtly suicidal calls from clients, tho' I talk to many in the jails who feel hopeless, but I recently had two clients call me at home, just a day apart.

The second call was from a beautiful asian girl who had a 3 month old baby. She was awaiting sentencing. She gave every appearance of really having her act together. She had stolen a considerable sum from her employer. He had actually forgiven her, but the police got involved and there was no going back. We worked it all out, with the help of her parents, paid back some of the restitution and got a good result despite the large amount involved.

She called in crisis. She had fooled me and a very good, experience prosecutor, her family, her employer. Her charm and youthful healthy beauty may have had something to do with it. She had a horrible drug addiction to pain killers, the kind of addiction where going cold turkey may kill you. Because of that most treatment centers in our region will not even accept paying private patients due to the liability issues.

After all of this was over, so we thought, she stole from her parents again. I did not know her well. She was just another court appointed client I had only seen for a few minutes at each court hearing [the facts were so clear and admitted, there was no reason for lengthy sessions preparing for trial]. Even tho' she barely knew me, apparently she had burned all of her other bridges, so she called me that night.

I don't remember exactly what I said. I just mostly listened, giving rational feedback. I had no formula. She was a Christian, [tho' I don't remember when I learned that, whether it was during that call or later], but obviously I could not pray with her, nor offer some religious advice [I am scrupulously honest with clients and if I think it appropriate, I may tell them something along the lines that, although I am an atheist, I believe there is much wisdom in the Bible and if they they are believers, they may find solace there, and should call someone from their church. I may even tell them my secular understanding of why certain things in the Bible help, regardless of supernatural explanations]

At any rate I listened and encouraged as I could for an hour and made sure she had someone with her. I promised to meet her the next morning at the jail and got her to agree to call or email me every day.

Tho' she credits me for 'saving her life' it is not true. I just listened. She saved herself.

At any rate she finally got the help she needed. We had several emergency continuances and worked with the jail to save her job through work release. She found a new program that would give her some transitional medications while she detoxed safely and now because of her the Court is aware of the new program available. She seems happy and healthy and her baby girl is now thriving at 8 months.

Things turned out well, but I have to admit that if a person really has nothing to live for, is in pain and irrevocably disabled and has made a thoughtful, sober decision that life is no longer worth living, I certainly would not automatically try to talk them out of suicide. I might even try to make them comfortable with their decision. I might tease them, even tell a joke or try to be amusing... anything. What's to lose? Why not take a chance?

BTW although I am currently on a sabbatical [sounds fancier that 'goofing off' or 'semi retired] just this morning I received yet another call from a recent client. Unfortunately she did not call me at the moment of truth. She called from the hospital where she was taken for an overdose suicide attempt the day before she was to report for 6 months of work crew. She too had a baby a couple months ago.

I mention that case as well, just as a reminder to us all that there is a lot of pain out there and we will frequently have the privilege to help and in doing so, to help ourselves.

I'm making no religious or anti religious statement about anything. Just trying to find that common ground we can all share.

Danmark:
Thanks for sharing the story. A couple of things.

#1 - There is nothing in that story that can used against you. None.

#2 - There isn't anything wrong with what you did, and sometimes the act of listening is all people in crisis need (indeed, its one of the things that counselors are trained to do).

The real difficulty in your story is not that you would be held to task, save in some small way, but the girl in question. There are many who would read the story, see a series of bad choices leading to addiction and criminality to support that addiction, and simply toss the girl in to the heap of the forgotten. Nevertheless, you showed mercy at a time when many would not have done so ... and if there is one thing I have learned from my religion (two actually), it is that simply ascribing to any religion does not give us the market of virtue, and to appreciate virtue when it is found.

Mercy can be a devilishly difficult thing to administer to (something I myself struggle with at times, even with the quiet and continual admonitions of Jesus), and seeing it anywhere is always a good thing, and its critical importance for ALL people.

If there is anything I could highlight from that story, it is what I would call honest atheism. Its the acknowledgement of your choice and the respect of other choices, and I both pray and am thankful that it was an honest atheist that responded to her rather than ... a different kind.

Thanks for sharing the story, and the confirmation of a long held belief that no man honestly pursuing faith is ever someone I have met that is a bad person.

BTW - its a bit personal for the board, but your story helped me arrive at a decision. I will PM you the details if you wish.

[Danmark]

Danmark:
Thanks for sharing the story. A couple of things.

#1 - There is nothing in that story that can used against you. None.

#2 - There isn't anything wrong with what you did, and sometimes the act of listening is all people in crisis need (indeed, its one of the things that counselors are trained to do).

The real difficulty in your story is not that you would be held to task, save in some small way, but the girl in question. There are many who would read the story, see a series of bad choices leading to addiction and criminality to support that addiction, and simply toss the girl in to the heap of the forgotten. Nevertheless, you showed mercy at a time when many would not have done so ... and if there is one thing I have learned from my religion (two actually), it is that simply ascribing to any religion does not give us the market of virtue, and to appreciate virtue when it is found.

Mercy can be a devilishly difficult thing to administer to (something I myself struggle with at times, even with the quiet and continual admonitions of Jesus), and seeing it anywhere is always a good thing, and its critical importance for ALL people.

If there is anything I could highlight from that story, it is what I would call honest atheism. Its the acknowledgement of your choice and the respect of other choices, and I both pray and am thankful that it was an honest atheist that responded to her rather than ... a different kind.

Thanks for sharing the story, and the confirmation of a long held belief that no man honestly pursuing faith is ever someone I have met that is a bad person.

BTW - its a bit personal for the board, but your story helped me arrive at a decision. I will PM you the details if you wish.

I confess to some self appreciation what I did. I know it was helpful. [tho' I think it important not to let one's ego get involved when 'doing good.' That can be the fly that taints the ointment. Perhaps that is the meaning of 'not letting the right hand know what the left is doing.'

The only aspect that I thought might be controversial was:

'...if a person really has nothing to live for, is in pain and irrevocably disabled and has made a thoughtful, sober decision that life is no longer worth living, I certainly would not automatically try to talk them out of suicide. I might even try to make them comfortable with their decision.'

In other words, I think suicide is fine, in some cases. In addition to being caring, one needs to remain rational and objective. Or maybe accepting someone's assessment of their life is the caring thing to do. I've certainly had sufficient physical or emotional pain in my life, that if it were going to continue for long periods, with little hope for relief, I would consider suicide. But the perspective of someone in his later years is different than when dealing with a child or young adult.

The other part of this story that I may not have disclosed, or was too subtle about, is that there is no question in my mind that there was always an ulterior motive in the back of my mind.

Anyway, yes, send me a PM

BTW, I appreciate the ref. to an 'honest atheist.' I want to tread lightly here, but one could also say one is happy when an 'honest christian' is involved.

Again, I say this not to start an argument, but to acknowledge that perhaps no one is always completely honest. That one can be a Christian or an atheist, and still have failings. Honesty is a sine qua non . While we can differ on which category has the highest or lowest percentage of 'honest' practitioners, I give both groups the benefit of the doubt for making the attempt at what I think may be a perfection never reached.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 174:

Its been addressed, and indeed, you have yet to address any of the counter point Joey.

If by "addressed" you mean waved away with a sweep of the hand, I can't disagree.

I feel confident the observer will conclude that you have no real refutation, and that your claim of "no moral gene" is in error.

All I've seen you do is offer a source of your own to confirm how your source failed.

Once again, I am shocked at how easily atheists will play the victim card.

The day you make me into a victim is the day Hell freezes over.

Unfortunately Joey, not only do the forum rules require you to make your case...

Then report me.

I've already challenged you once to do it.

It's that little ! button up there at the top of the post in question. Do you see the button in question? If not, please ask someone to help you locate it.

Do it man!

C'mon, it's just a mouse click away!

2nd challenge.

so to does the fact that you basely insulted a man and claimed he was ignorant.

Yes, I contend you are ignorant of the data, and of the conclusions my source presents regarding that data. Evidence here being your hand-waving dismissal, more empty, unsupported assertions, and not even once directly addressing the data and conclusions from the site in question.

In either case, no more excuses.

If indeed you have anything else?

LOL


Let me know when you wish to directly address the data in my source, and I'll be glad to continue this. Otherwise, I'll not waste any more time on you.


For those interested in learning more about this issue, a friend was gracious enough to point out http://suite101.com/article/human-moral ... is article. It mentions some of the research involved in animal / human morality.

[stubbornone]

Danmark:
Thanks for sharing the story. A couple of things.

#1 - There is nothing in that story that can used against you. None.

#2 - There isn't anything wrong with what you did, and sometimes the act of listening is all people in crisis need (indeed, its one of the things that counselors are trained to do).

The real difficulty in your story is not that you would be held to task, save in some small way, but the girl in question. There are many who would read the story, see a series of bad choices leading to addiction and criminality to support that addiction, and simply toss the girl in to the heap of the forgotten. Nevertheless, you showed mercy at a time when many would not have done so ... and if there is one thing I have learned from my religion (two actually), it is that simply ascribing to any religion does not give us the market of virtue, and to appreciate virtue when it is found.

Mercy can be a devilishly difficult thing to administer to (something I myself struggle with at times, even with the quiet and continual admonitions of Jesus), and seeing it anywhere is always a good thing, and its critical importance for ALL people.

If there is anything I could highlight from that story, it is what I would call honest atheism. Its the acknowledgement of your choice and the respect of other choices, and I both pray and am thankful that it was an honest atheist that responded to her rather than ... a different kind.

Thanks for sharing the story, and the confirmation of a long held belief that no man honestly pursuing faith is ever someone I have met that is a bad person.

BTW - its a bit personal for the board, but your story helped me arrive at a decision. I will PM you the details if you wish.

I confess to some self appreciation what I did. I know it was helpful. [tho' I think it important not to let one's ego get involved when 'doing good.' That can be the fly that taints the ointment. Perhaps that is the meaning of 'not letting the right hand know what the left is doing.'

The only aspect that I thought might be controversial was:

'...if a person really has nothing to live for, is in pain and irrevocably disabled and has made a thoughtful, sober decision that life is no longer worth living, I certainly would not automatically try to talk them out of suicide. I might even try to make them comfortable with their decision.'

In other words, I think suicide is fine, in some cases. In addition to being caring, one needs to remain rational and objective. Or maybe accepting someone's assessment of their life is the caring thing to do. I've certainly had sufficient physical or emotional pain in my life, that if it were going to continue for long periods, with little hope for relief, I would consider suicide. But the perspective of someone in his later years is different than when dealing with a child or young adult.

The other part of this story that I may not have disclosed, or was too subtle about, is that there is no question in my mind that there was always an ulterior motive in the back of my mind.

Anyway, yes, send me a PM

BTW, I appreciate the ref. to an 'honest atheist.' I want to tread lightly here, but one could also say one is happy when an 'honest christian' is involved.

Again, I say this not to start an argument, but to acknowledge that perhaps no one is always completely honest. That one can be a Christian or an atheist, and still have failings. Honesty is a sine qua non . While we can differ on which category has the highest or lowest percentage of 'honest' practitioners, I give both groups the benefit of the doubt for making the attempt at what I think may be a perfection never reached.

You will get no argument there. It is why, though I often disagree with say Nietzsche, I praise his because he was honestly seeking the right thing. His criticism of faith, and particular the 'church' was unfortunately quite accurate. The benefit of it, even if it is painful to accept stinging criticism, is that the church did change ... it is much more in harmony with science (which as a rationalist I appreciate), and its a much more tolerant church that must rest on its merits rather than its history.

Unfortunately, we don't get enough of that kind of atheism, and, IMHO, many of the current leaders inside atheism fall well short of the intellectual roots of atheism and actively damage the ideology. That is, of course, my opinion, but hopefully as Nietzsche's criticism of religion drove change, perhaps to the criticism of some aspects of modern atheism will also drive it to change in a positive direction? I guess we'll find out?

As for the question of suicide, there are a couple of things that I keep in mind.

#1 - A person who reaches the point of suicidal ideation is no longer thinking entirely rationally or objectively.

#2 - Suicide is a permanent solution to temporary problem.

Humans are wonderfully creative in over coming problems, and indeed such creative capacity drives our technology. Given this fascinating modern age we live in, it is far easier to tie into that capacity with collaborative tools and nformation finding. No matter the problem we face as individuals, there is almost no chance that what we face is something that no else is or has faced. Being able to reach out and connect people is a wonderful blessing in this day and age, and something to be mindful of when someone is reaching out for a final solution to a problem that can either be mitigated or overcome.

Nothing promises us a life free of trail and tribulation, but having, unfortunately, seen the aftermath of suicide, I can say with all honesty that I have never seen it accomplish anything good for anyone ... and it leaves behind a pain and questioning in those around it that is potentially scarring for life.

Not quite sure what that has to do with the topic at hand, but at least its an honest discussion of a moral situation ... so I'll take it for what it is.

[stubbornone]

From Post 174:

Its been addressed, and indeed, you have yet to address any of the counter point Joey.

If by "addressed" you mean waved away with a sweep of the hand, I can't disagree.

I feel confident the observer will conclude that you have no real refutation, and that your claim of "no moral gene" is in error.

All I've seen you do is offer a source of your own to confirm how your source failed.

Once again, I am shocked at how easily atheists will play the victim card.

The day you make me into a victim is the day Hell freezes over.

Unfortunately Joey, not only do the forum rules require you to make your case...

Then report me.

I've already challenged you once to do it.

It's that little ! button up there at the top of the post in question. Do you see the button in question? If not, please ask someone to help you locate it.

Do it man!

C'mon, it's just a mouse click away!

2nd challenge.

so to does the fact that you basely insulted a man and claimed he was ignorant.

Yes, I contend you are ignorant of the data, and of the conclusions my source presents regarding that data. Evidence here being your hand-waving dismissal, more empty, unsupported assertions, and not even once directly addressing the data and conclusions from the site in question.

In either case, no more excuses.

If indeed you have anything else?

LOL


Let me know when you wish to directly address the data in my source, and I'll be glad to continue this. Otherwise, I'll not waste any more time on you.


For those interested in learning more about this issue, a friend was gracious enough to point out http://suite101.com/article/human-moral ... is article. It mentions some of the research involved in animal / human morality.

Another rambling diatribe that is not worth anything more of a response.

No thesis, no support ... just whiney victimization. Noted, and appropriately responded to.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 174:

Its been addressed, and indeed, you have yet to address any of the counter point Joey.

If by "addressed" you mean waved away with a sweep of the hand, I can't disagree.

I feel confident the observer will conclude that you have no real refutation, and that your claim of "no moral gene" is in error.

All I've seen you do is offer a source of your own to confirm how your source failed.

Once again, I am shocked at how easily atheists will play the victim card.

The day you make me into a victim is the day Hell freezes over.

Unfortunately Joey, not only do the forum rules require you to make your case...

Then report me.

I've already challenged you once to do it.

It's that little ! button up there at the top of the post in question. Do you see the button in question? If not, please ask someone to help you locate it.

Do it man!

C'mon, it's just a mouse click away!

2nd challenge.

so to does the fact that you basely insulted a man and claimed he was ignorant.

Yes, I contend you are ignorant of the data, and of the conclusions my source presents regarding that data. Evidence here being your hand-waving dismissal, more empty, unsupported assertions, and not even once directly addressing the data and conclusions from the site in question.

In either case, no more excuses.

If indeed you have anything else?

LOL


Let me know when you wish to directly address the data in my source, and I'll be glad to continue this. Otherwise, I'll not waste any more time on you.


For those interested in learning more about this issue, a friend was gracious enough to point out http://suite101.com/article/human-moral ... is article. It mentions some of the research involved in animal / human morality.

Another rambling diatribe that is not worth anything more of a response.

No thesis, no support ... just whiney victimization. Noted, and appropriately responded to.

Are we to conclude you couldn't find the button to report me as not supporting my assertion?

LOL

One of y'all do us all a favor and teach stubbornone how to report posts he feels folks ain't offering support for.

[Clownboat]

The ever changing goal posts of atheism.

I'm not an atheist, so your claim here is necessarily false.

You claimed that this 'doesn't make it true' and that it is a placebo ... which certainly seems to indicate that you don't think its true. Yet pointing that out is strawman?

Correct, I did claim that it doesn't make it true, but I did not call it a placebo. My example was the placebo scenario. You have a habit it seems of reading in to things that are not there.

And now you deny faith in atheism?

I claim that atheists don't believe in gods. Full stop. You are the one trying to tie on additional baggage.

So, once again, you are going to ask Christians to spell out the proof for God....

Nope, wrong again. I personally don't believe a god concept can be proven nor dis proven, so why would I ask you to spell it out for me. Again, you are reading things into this that are not there.

... but atheists have no faith, and neither do they have any evidence? Nor does their evidenced based position even have a burden of proof? They aren't actually claiming anything?

Correct, I don't believe it very accurate to call what atheist have, faith. I would call it a lack of belief in gods. However, they probably do have some evidence. This evidence would be the lack of evidence of there being a god. This does not prove gods don't exist though of course. Correct, most atheists are not actually claiming anything, unless you call saying "I don't believe in gods" a claim.

And we'll have that debate YET AGAIN, and be lead to the same obvious conclusion that atheists cannot disprove God ... for what reason?

I agree, atheists cannot disprove god. Can you disprove Bigfoot?

So you can deny logic and while calling yourself logical and Christians illogical?

What are you talking about?

That sounds more like a personal choice than a evidenced based conclusion.

What is? Are you still on about proving or disproving a god concept?

But that is atheism.

I think you are one of the last people we should listen to when it comes to what atheism is.

And indeed, the utter inability to spell out a coherent position as in, "Gee, that doesn't make it true ... but I am not saying it is wrong either! Or a placebo, which I just said it was ... er, what exactly is my position again?"

You seem to be rambling...

Why should we treat your position as a logical position?

What is my position again? I recall it being: Religions help some people, I will not argue that. However, that does not make them true." I see no need for you to treat it as logical, but if it's not in your opinion, I would love to hear why you think so.

Indeed a logical position consists of ... from an atheist website mind you ...

A premise is a statement (a sentence that is either true or false) that is offered in support of the claim being made, which is the conclusion (which is also a sentence that is either true or false).

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

Like I have told you before, there are all sorts of atheists. Search the web and I promise you that you will continue to find all sorts of things that atheists have said. However, I challenge you to find a concept that atheists must hold on to besides "not believing in gods".

Now, what claim are making and attempting to support?

What! Again. Oh well, here it is: "Religions help some people, I will not argue that. However, that does not make them true."

That miraculous stores mean nothing? That there is or is not something to these things? That faith does not give a boost to resiliency in times of crisis? What?

Read above, I have posted it twice already in this thread alone.

Or is that atheism is not a faith? As in whatchutalkingaboutwillis?

Seriously, what are you talking about willis?

Please establish a position. Its what honest/logical people do.

Ok, for the third time: Religions help some people, I will not argue that. However, that does not make them true."

[Danmark]

If by "addressed" you mean waved away with a sweep of the hand, I can't disagree.

It's that little ! button up there at the top of the post in question. Do you see the button in question? If not, please ask someone to help you locate it.

Joey, I love you man. You crack me up.
I think the subject matter of http://suite101.com/article/human-moral ... ed-a195589 is a fascinating area of research.

BTW, I repeatedly hit the [!] on more than one of your posts. Every time an odd thing happens. Instead of getting the 'report this post dialogue' I get the following message:

THIS BUTTON HAS BEEN DISABLED ON THIS MEMBER'S POSTS DUE TO OVER USE.
PLEASE BE PATIENT WHILE WE WORK ON THIS TECHNICAL PROBLEM.

I'd like to suggest to ALL of us, particularly when we 'know' we are right, to allow our rival posters a way to 'save face' or otherwise continue the debate strictly on the issues. I say this because I know too well how difficult it is to refrain from either initiating or (and especially) refraining from responding to, personal remarks.

It is an art I aspire to, but have not mastered, to add just enough of the personal to be humorous or interesting without engendering acrimony. Like spicing food, just a touch is better than too much.

Especially when we think we have a good point, we should welcome rebuttal as it helps us refine our own thinking.
_________________
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa, mea bigga gulpa