Can the Laws of Nature be temporarily altered or suspended

ytrewq · Post by **ytrewq** » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:52 pm

Modern science is based on the assumption that the so-called Laws of Nature are fixed, and that temporary and/or localized variations or suspensions do not occur.

A supernatural event may be defined as one that could only occur if the Laws of Nature were temporarily altered or suspended, so the question being asked is essentially the same as whether supernatural events can occur.

Here are some examples of supernatural events under this definition.

(a) You are holding a heavy (10kg) stone. Suddenly you feel the stone become lighter, then weightless, then it starts pulling upwards. In surprise, you let go, and the stone falls upwards, away from the earth rather than towards it, and accelerates upwards into the sky and out of sight. In scientific terms, the Law of Gravitational Attraction has been temporarily altered (reversed) for this stone. Is this possible?

(b) A massive (3000kg, or 3 ton) tree branch has fallen on your child. Although the main weight has been taken on the ground, your child is nonetheless pinned between the branch and the ground, and screaming out that they cannot breath. You attempt to lift the branch, but it weighs 3000kg, so you cannot lift it, but of course you try anyway. Only a supernatural event can help you and save the life of your child. The Law of Gravity could be temporarily altered, so just for a few seconds, the branch weighed only 50kg. Is this possible? Alternatively, you could temporarily acquire superhuman strength, and for a few seconds be able to lift the 3000kg, which would normally snap your tendons or bones. Is this possible?

(c) Your mobile phone stops working, but there is nothing whatsoever physically wrong with it. Instead, one of the Laws of Physics that make computers work become temporarily altered or suspended such that your computer stops working. Is this possible?

All of the $100 notes in your wallet sponaneously change into $10 notes, or your gold ingot spontaneously changes into a steel ingot, etc. Is this possible?

In my opinion, the answer to all these questions must surely be NO. As far as science is concerend the answer most certainly is NO, for all of the scientific knowledge gained over the past 200 years depends on fundamental Laws of nature being stable and reproducible, at different times and in different locations. It would be either a brave or foolish person that would dismiss the past 200 years of scientific knowledge with a wave of the hand.

However, regardless of what science says, through human experience, the very society in which we live has de-facto already answered answered NO to questions of this type. For example, our legal system will not (and could not possibly) allow or dispute evidence on the basis of a supernatural event having occured. Society would simply disintegrate into chaos if we had to seriously entertain the possibility of all potential supernatural events. Futhermore, almost every modern machine from cars to phones to computers simply could not work unless the underlying physical Laws were totally rock solid and reliable. Imagine taking your brand new malfunctioning computer back to the store, only to be told 'I'm terribly sorry sir, but there is nothing physically wrong with your computer. Unfortunately for you, the Laws of Nature upon which it relies for it's operation are unstable. Although unusual, this can happen.' Of course, nobody believes this. Do you?

There is, of course, a temptation to make 'exceptions' for the suspension or alteration of the Laws of Nature, when doing so makes possible an event that you wish to believe is possible. This is really just hypocrisy and wishful thinking. If your pet beliefs are entitled to such an exception, then of course so are mine, and so are everone else's, including the pet beliefs of every crackpot under the sun. Logical debate ceases altogether. Unless we can find evidence to the contrary, and none has ever been found, then (perhaps unfortunately) we need to accept that the Laws of Nature cannot be suspended or altered just because we would like it to be so, and get on with life.

ytrewq · Post by **ytrewq** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:58 am

Truth101 wrote:

Physical laws being bent, refer to Emily rose. During her exorcism, she had super human strength so they had to tie her down on a bed. Three pastors couldn't hold her down.

Be aware that claims of this sort may not be entirely accurate.

Even so, there is nothing supernatural about requiring three people to restrain someone who is in a fenzied, mad, violent fit, as law enforcement officers will tell you. If a person managed to snap restraining ropes with a breaking rating of 3000 kg, then THAT would be supernatural, as per my example in the original posting of a person lifting a 3000kg tree branch to save the life of their child.

Actually, it might be a good idea to read the original posting, and answer the specific six questions in bold that were asked. It shouldn't take you long, because they are all simple Yes/No questions.

ytrewq · Post by **ytrewq** » Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:11 am

I was hoping for some replies and comments and ideas on this topic, especially from some of the more thoughtful theists that I know are out there.

For any theist with an open, questioning mind, I fail to see how they could NOT be interested in the questions raised here.

How DOES a theist, and especially a Christian, address this very obvious problem of apparently being required to believe in some supernatural events, while not believing in others that we know perfectly well cannot be true. Where do you draw the line, and how do you decide where such a line is to be drawn. Or is there no line at all, and do you answer YES to the possibility of absolutely anything, no matter how ridiculous or contrary to very well established science and experience. Surely not? Is it possible to arrive home one day, after leaving that morning, and find your house is no longer there, replaced by another? The questions raised here don't go away just because some theists prefer to ignore them.

Should the Bible be completely re-interpreted in the light of modern knowledge to remove the literal interpretation of all supernatural events, a process which has in very large part happened already?

Is it possible to have a meaningful religion that does not rely upon or make reference to supernatural beings or events at all?

If these aren't extremely relevent questions for a debate forum on religion, then I don't know what are.

I would greatly appreciate responses, especially (at least in the first instance) to the questions asked in bold, in the original posting.

Jax Agnesson · Post by **Jax Agnesson** » Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:27 am

Anyone who believes that the laws of nature are laid down by a creator god could believe that the laws of nature can be suspended by that same god. The laws of morality likewise, can be suspended or disregarded by a god who lays down those laws for the guidance of his creatures..
Sometimes I wish I could live the life of simple faith!

ytrewq · Post by **ytrewq** » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:35 am

Jax Agnesson wrote: Anyone who believes that the laws of nature are laid down by a creator god could believe that the laws of nature can be suspended by that same god. The laws of morality likewise, can be suspended or disregarded by a god who lays down those laws for the guidance of his creatures..
Sometimes I wish I could live the life of simple faith!

In fairness to the theists here, you should let them answer the specific (in bold) questions that I asked in the original posting for themselves.

How do you answer those six specific questions in the original posting? With an absolute, 100% certain NO to every question, or a 'NO, with a certainty equal to the certainty with which we can know anything', or a 'NO beyond all reasonable doubt', or what? You did not actually answer the questions yourself.

SailingCyclops · Post by **SailingCyclops** » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:37 am

TheTruth101 wrote:Physical laws being bent, refer to Emily rose. During her exorcism, she had super human strength so they had to tie her down on a bed. Three pastors couldn't hold her down.

You really DO believe everything you see in the movies, on YouTube, or on TeeVee don't you? The Exorcism of Emily Rose Is a horror movie, Emily Rose is a demon possessed character in that movie. Not knowing the difference between fact and fancy is a serious mental condition.

Jax Agnesson · Post by **Jax Agnesson** » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:41 am

ytrewq wrote:
Jax Agnesson wrote: Anyone who believes that the laws of nature are laid down by a creator god could believe that the laws of nature can be suspended by that same god. The laws of morality likewise, can be suspended or disregarded by a god who lays down those laws for the guidance of his creatures..
Sometimes I wish I could live the life of simple faith!
In fairness to the theists here, you should let them answer the specific (in bold) questions that I asked in the original posting for themselves.

How do you answer those six specific questions in the original posting? With an absolute, 100% certain NO to every question, or a or a 'NO beyond all reasonable doubt', or what? You did not actually answer the questions yourself.

To most of them, I with answer 'NO, with a certainty equal to the certainty with which we can know anything',.
To the one about money inexplicably shrinking in value inside my wallet, I have to report that this happens to me all the time. Especially in the pub, for some reason.

YahDough · Post by **YahDough** » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:53 pm

Can the Laws of Nature be temporarily altered or suspended?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

YES! Of course they can. Are you ignorant of documented miracles, or do you just not accept that they happen? That is ignorance also, or gross disbelief.

The Creator of the Laws of Nature is quite able to bend and even suspend those same laws He ordained.

Your "disbelief" in the Creator and the Creator force is the issue here, not whether metaphysics happens.

Metaphysics happens!

Miracles happen!

TheTruth101 · Post by **TheTruth101** » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:16 pm

SailingCyclops wrote:
TheTruth101 wrote:Physical laws being bent, refer to Emily rose. During her exorcism, she had super human strength so they had to tie her down on a bed. Three pastors couldn't hold her down.
You really DO believe everything you see in the movies, on YouTube, or on TeeVee don't you? The Exorcism of Emily Rose Is a horror movie, Emily Rose is a demon possessed character in that movie. Not knowing the difference between fact and fancy is a serious mental condition.

Why would you keep saying its a fictional movie. It's more of a documentary film.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anneliese_Michel
Emily rose really existed and she did go through 100+ exorcisms and she DID speak a language that she never knew. And she did eat cockroaches and mouses off her floor. And she did curse her mother and father and the pastors death when she was being exorcismed, and she DID visit the hospitals because she got afraid, and she DID not find any good outcome from the medications, and she DID die of starvation and malnutrition (fast), and she DID see demons.
And the DOCTOR that helped her test her DID die from a car accident during her trial, and the pastor DID claim he saw a demon and etc.

Your starting to not sound logical at all. Just going around dismissing all these evidences.

This was a LIVE recording during her exorcism done by a professional medical doctor. you call that a normal persons voice whichever the illness may be? (skitzophrenia mental condition etc) It's not just someone YELLING, you feel ANGST on her voice. It's called supernatural or demonic possesion.

*Mods please PM me to take it down if its too graphic for this forum.*[youtube][/youtube]

SailingCyclops · Post by **SailingCyclops** » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:04 pm

TheTruth101 wrote:Why would you keep saying its a fictional movie. It's more of a documentary film.

Emily Rose is a fictional character in a horror movie as I posted previously. Anneliese Michel, is another person, a real person. She was diagnosed as schizophrenic. You are conflating a fictional character with a real person. The horror movie does not claim to be a "documentary". It is as fictional a movie as the Youtube movie of the flying Shaman. The French intro in your video claims the movie Emily Rose was "INSPIRED" by the case of Anneliese Michel. As I said in a previous post, you can't seem to differentiate fact from fiction.

If you wish to discuss Anneliese Michel, then do so, there is a lot of medical information available about her case. But please don't insult our intelligence by conflating her with a movie character.

TheTruth101 · Post by **TheTruth101** » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:12 pm

SailingCyclops wrote:
TheTruth101 wrote:Why would you keep saying its a fictional movie. It's more of a documentary film.
Emily Rose is a fictional character in a horror movie as I posted previously. Anneliese Michel, is another person, a real person. She was diagnosed as schizophrenic. You are conflating a fictional character with a real person. The horror movie does not claim to be a "documentary". It is as fictional a movie as the Youtube movie of the flying Shaman. The French intro in your video claims the movie Emily Rose was "INSPIRED" by the case of Anneliese Michel. As I said in a previous post, you can't seem to differentiate fact from fiction.

If you wish to discuss Anneliese Michel, then do so, there is a lot of medical information available about her case. But please don't insult our intelligence by conflating her with a movie character.

All the events that took place was inspired by her. This would meanall the events that took place were true or close enough to it.

So do you think this is a hoax as well? I'm referring to supernatural possesion.