Where did Lucifer come from?

[ST88]

If Satan is/was a fallen angel, why wasn't the battle in Heaven mentioned in Genesis?

[hiramabbi2]

Back to the matter at hand the Devil I think we all agree that the devil or satan fell somewhere during the time of Geneisis, why isn't it in the book is the question at hand I think

According to what is written in the Scripture....

DEUTERONOMY 29
29 The SECRET things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Therefore, it is none our business why it is not written in the Book of Genesis.

And obviously, God's revealed truth is not limited to Genesis.

It is not necessary for the revelation of the fall of the angels to be explained in Genesis. Given the revelations from Job to Peter regarding the angels, there is no doubt the fall of the angels is part of God's truth. Subsequently, I believe that the only logical place in Scripture to consider the fall of the angels is between Genesis 1:1-2. Not only that, but it makes perfect sense and answers alot of questions.

Here’s the meaning of “genesis” for your convenience. I cut-and-paste it for your learning folder.

genesis: noun - The initial stage of a developmental process: beginning, birth, commencement, dawn, inception, nascence, nascency, onset, opening, origin, outset, spring, start.

Obviously, Esoteric does not know the meaning or the usage of word “genesis” in the Scripture. That is why he looking for the story of the FALLEN Angels and Lucifer, in the beginning or start of the creation process of OUR OWN universe.

As I have said, Genesis 1:1-2 is the narration of the condition of the DEEP before any creation or work ever took place in the beginning. Genesis 1:3 document us the bringing forth of the Jesus, the Son of God, into the realm of our physical world when God spoke the WORD (Jesus) in the beginning "Let there be Light" Gen. 1:3.

Please let me know how I could be more of help to you Esoteric.

Btw, it reminds me of the Scriptures that speak of those natural men who always look but couldn't see and hear but could not understand. Read ….

1 CORINTHIANS 2
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


God Bless

[otseng]

Obviously, Esoteric does not know the meaning or the usage of word “genesis”. That is why he looking for the story of the fallen Angels and Lucifer, in the beginning or start of creation process.

Please let me know how I could be more of help to you Esoteric.

Your condescending manner will no longer be tolerated. You have been warned several times and this is the last straw. You are now hereby placed in the probation room and fined 200 tokens. Further violations will result in a ban from the forum. Also, be reminded that comments on moderator actions are to be discussed privately, not publicly.

[hiramabbi2]

Dear Readers:


This is a brief Scriptural reconciliation of the texts that tell us the STORY of the condition of the DEEP before the creation of our heaven and earth in the BEGINNING. (Genesis 1:1)

In the beginning was the Word (Light), and the Word was with God (Father), and the Word was God (Son) John 1:1

"The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, BEFORE his work of old. Proverbs. 8:22

And the Earth (Ground) was without form, (Dust) and void; (Empty) and darkness (Death) was upon the face of the deep, (Water) and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Genesis 1:2

"The same was in the beginning with God." John 1:2

"I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. Proverbs. 8:23

And God said, LET THERE BE LIGHT: and there was light. Genesis 1:3

NOTE: The WORD was spoken by God in the BEGINNING.

"All things were made BY him; and without him, was not any thing made that was made." John 1:3

"When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.'" Proverbs 8:24

Note: As we could see, based on the reconciliation of the passages including Genesis1:1~3, our heaven and earth at this period of time were still null & void (empty).

"And God saw the light that it WAS good: and God divided the light from darkness. v5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the 1st. day. "Genesis 1:4-5

There you are!!! The "Gap Theory" based on Scriptures (3) and not fables.


God Bless

[Esoteric_Illuminati]

Back to the matter at hand the Devil I think we all agree that the devil or satan fell somewhere during the time of Geneisis, why isn't it in the book is the question at hand I think

According to what is written in the Scripture....

DEUTERONOMY 29
29 The SECRET things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Therefore, it is none our business why it is not written in the Book of Genesis.

And obviously, God's revealed truth is not limited to Genesis.

It is not necessary for the revelation of the fall of the angels to be explained in Genesis. Given the revelations from Job to Peter regarding the angels, there is no doubt the fall of the angels is part of God's truth. Subsequently, I believe that the only logical place in Scripture to consider the fall of the angels is between Genesis 1:1-2. Not only that, but it makes perfect sense and answers alot of questions.

Here’s the meaning of “genesis” for your convenience. I cut-and-paste it for your learning folder.

genesis: noun - The initial stage of a developmental process: beginning, birth, commencement, dawn, inception, nascence, nascency, onset, opening, origin, outset, spring, start.

Obviously, Esoteric does not know the meaning or the usage of word “genesis” in the Scripture. That is why he looking for the story of the FALLEN Angels and Lucifer, in the beginning or start of the creation process of OUR OWN universe.

As I have said, Genesis 1:1-2 is the narration of the condition of the DEEP before any creation or work ever took place in the beginning. Genesis 1:3 document us the bringing forth of the Jesus, the Son of God, into the realm of our physical world when God spoke the WORD (Jesus) in the beginning "Let there be Light" Gen. 1:3.

Please let me know how I could be more of help to you Esoteric.

Heh, well ya know what? It's really ok if you don't feel comfortable making the logical connections that I do between the provided Scriptures that speak on the angels. It's ok if you're simply are unable to make them for whatever reason. I believe the Holy Spirit reveals truth proportionate to the capacity of knowledge we can receive and understand. With my own knowledgeable background of Christian apologetics and philosophy, in correspondence with God's Word, I feel quite comfortable and confident making the logical conclusions that I do about the fall of the angels.

The bottom line is your responses do little to refute my argument since they are based on your own eisegesis of Scripture which is fundamentally different than what I believe. Until we can come to some agreement on the fundamental truths of Scripture, I'm afraid our responses to each other are in vain. I made a sincere effort to do so in the "born again" thread, but we obviously failed to touch bases there.

The only thing that bothers me is your persistent attempts to label me an "unbeliever." No one but Christ can judge my heart and my faith. If you knew me personally, perhaps you'd be able to judge my works, but on an anonymous web forum, you have absolutely no basis to label any confessed Christian as an unbeliever. You and I may approach Scripture completely different, but I still do not feel comfortable judging your faith in Christ and accusing you as you have done with me.

Btw, it reminds me of the Scriptures that speak of those natural men who always look but couldn't see and hear but could not understand. Read ….

1 CORINTHIANS 2
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Ironically here, 1 Corinthians 2 serves as the inspiration for my screenname - speaking of which, ya'll are welcome to simply refer to me as EI, rather than bother typing my SN out.

[hiramabbi2]

Dear Readers:

Food for thought for ALL of US:

I get full satisfaction whenever I encountered someone that profess themselves to be wise, but only to find out their knowledge become foolish in the end, as prophesied and written in the Scripture.

1 CORINTHIANS 1
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

ROMANS 1
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. v 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,...

1 TIMOTHY 1
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding NEITHER what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

And so it is written: THE KNOWLEDGE BECOMES FOOLISH!

Let it be a striking lesson for everyone of us.


God Bless.

[Esoteric_Illuminati]

Dear Readers:

Food for thought for ALL of US:

I get full satisfaction whenever I encountered someone that profess themselves to be wise, but only to find out their knowledge become foolish in the end, as prophesied and written in the Scripture.

...

And so it is written: THE KNOWLEDGE BECOMES FOOLISH!

Let it be a striking lesson for everyone of us.


God Bless.

Thanks for calling me a fool once again. If ignorance is wisdom as you imply above, then I would rather be a fool in your world.

Now I never claimed to be wise apart from God and His Word. God is the One who is wise and I believe He has blessed me and taught me some of His truths. Every single belief I hold and profess here is predicated on God's Word, including the main topic: the fall of the angels. I would not hold a religious belief that I could not justify or reconcile apart from His Word.

I believe the Holy Spirit reveals truth proportionate to the capacity of knowledge we can receive and understand. With my own knowledgeable background of Christian apologetics and philosophy, in correspondence with God's Word, I feel quite comfortable and confident making the logical conclusions that I do about the fall of the angels.

The heart/soul can't believe or trust what the mind rejects, since both the heart and mind work together.

Matthew 22:37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' [Deut. 6:5]


Scripture teaches fundamental rudimentary and advanced truths. We begin as spiritual infants who feed on milk, and as we grow with the Holy Spirit in Christ, we move on to solid food. Christianity is NOT anti-intellectual and anti-reason; it is not a religion that expects 'blind faith and obedience'. That's the problem with the Christian churches today. It's no surprise to me that atheists often accuse Christians of having "blind faith" these days because so very few Christians have moved on from milk to solid food.

Hebrews 5:12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!

1 Corinthians 3:2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.

I look at Scriptural truths like mathematics. We must first understand basic mathematical principles like addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. Once these truths are understood, we move on to basic algebra and geometry. Once we have matured in our knowledge of these operations, we can explore more advanced areas such as calculus and trignometry. Scripture works the SAME way. We don't stop seeking God's truth once we are given faith in Christ.

My point hiramabbi2, is that if one has trained himself in epistemology, philosophy, and apologetics, one is able to see God's Word from a different perspective than another who has no training in these areas. Just as a medical doctor may pick up on certain significant truths found in the crucifixion of Jesus that a normal person would overlook! In the same way, if you don't understand basic algebra, you cannot understand calculus. If one is anti-intellectual, he cannot grow in knowledge - truth and reality. Some examples:
Knowledge of the law (God's Word) is how we become conscious of our sin.

Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Knowledge of creation is how we become conscious of God Himself.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Hebrews 3:3 Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. 4For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything.

These are simple logical truths taught by Scripture - philosophical arguments for design, in Scripture! Furthermore, if you think knowledge is foolish/evil, read Proverbs Chapter 2 and of course you've already mentioned 1 Corinthians 2. It's all essentially consistent with what I believe Socrates once said:
"There is only one good and that is Knowledge and there is only one evil and that is ignorance."

Ignorance is foolishness, not knowledge as you claim.

Only through God's Word and the Holy Spirit do we Christians find true wisdom and knowledge from God. How much greater can His truths be revealed to you if you have trained and prepared your mind to receive and understand them? God gave us a rational mind for a REASON. God wants all Christians to be prepared to give an answer:

1 Peter 3:15 But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.

God wants all His children to be apologists. So that's what I try to do. Of course, I could not give an answer to many people who question my faith if I did not train myself in philosophy and apologetics. It is through such disciplines that the Holy Spirit speaks to a person on another level of knowledge - one that is not available for someone who does take the time to fully train his mind to love God the way God gave his mind to do. I believe it is a sin to not seek solid food of Scripture. It produces the Laodicean (lukewarm Christian) attitude found in Revelation 3.

You can quote Scripture out-of-context all day every day hiramabbi2 to try and call me a fool, while at the same time try to make yourself appear self-righteous, but that will not shake my confidence I have in Jesus Christ my Saviour. Nor will it stop me from giving an answer to people on this board.

[otseng]

H2, EI,

Could we move beyond commenting on each other personally and just comment on the arguments? If you both do insist on commenting on each other, please do so privately via PM.

We are all here to debate the question(s) that are posed in the threads and only that. Anything beyond that is technically against the rules.

[hiramabbi2]

H2, EI,

Could we move beyond commenting on each other personally and just comment on the arguments? If you both do insist on commenting on each other, please do so privately via PM.

We are all here to debate the question(s) that are posed in the threads and only that. Anything beyond that is technically against the rules.

Dear Otseng/Esoteric:

You’re absolutely right Otseng! Esoteric and I need to move on.

However, I don’t see anymore reason to continue debating this wild imagination of “gap theory” in Gen. 1:1-2 anyway, since, I believe I’ve already refuted this assumption, based on the Scripture, which remains Scripturally uncontested so far.

Unlike the others here, I do not to commend, justify nor deceive myself before this forum, which is abomination to our Lord. Read….

"..., Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God." Luke 16:15

"Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. v19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. v20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain." 1Corinthians 18-20

For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth. 2Corinthians 10:18

Let us just go back to the original topic - "Where did Lucifer come from?"



God Bless

[bernee51]

Let us just go back to the original topic - "Where did Lucifer come from?" s

aaahhhmmmm, she/he/it didn't come from anywhere...she/he/it doesn't exist

God Bless

god has blessed me with his absence.

[nikolayevich]

Let us just go back to the original topic - "Where did Lucifer come from?" s

aaahhhmmmm, she/he/it didn't come from anywhere...she/he/it doesn't exist

What are your reasons for this unbelief?

God Bless

god has blessed me with his absence.

I believe God will sometimes appear absent if it is requested of Him. It has been said that God will be wherever you want Him to be in the end, in relation to you. He will be your enemy if you so desire; your Savior if you choose. However, there is a kind of persistence on His part which I think requires more active avoidance on the part of His subjects.