Christian Forums ...Why?

[KCKID]

For a few weeks I've been 'lurking' on another Christian Forum wondering whether or not to sign up. Since I generally choose my battles to fight - those that I have an interest/knowledge in or, indeed, those that I may be quite passionate about - I DO have a habit of coming on pretty strong from the get-go. This, quite naturally, irks the 'oldies' of the forum somewhat that someone no one knows dares to jump in and rock the boat with barely a 'how-do-you-do'. I may very well feel the same about a new kid in town questioning something that we 'old timers' have already pretty well established. But, I hope not.

While I don't know if I should, or even that I'm allowed to, mention the forum by name, I DID sign up to it so that I could respond to a specific post that really annoyed me. The thread is about homosexuality/gay marriage (naturally) and is, as usual, a hot topic. I should have known better than to put in my nickel's worth because most of the posts on the 41 pages of debate (well, it's hardly a debate) are hostile to homosexuality because 'God sez that it's an abomination' and that's that! It was just like the lamb among the wolves scenerio and, as said, I should have known better. But, this one particular post by an 'old timer' and very popular with the other religious zealots made the claim: "The Lord finds homosexuality/gay marriage to be reprehensible." I just couldn't let that lie pass without some kind of recourse. So, I asked of the poster to either present the scripture that states that Jesus finds homosexuality/gay marriage to be reprehensible or retract the statement. I also said that I'd respect him for retracting the statement which would be the right thing for him to do since such a scripture does not exist and that I'd raise the issue no more. Well, all hell has broken loose by the poster in question and his band of like-minded forum buddies. I'm a stone's throw away from being banned (not that I really want to stick around anyway) simply because I asked for scripture to back the claim or a withdrawal of the statement. Obviously, I have the guy backed into a corner ...I know it and he knows it.

Question/s: Why would such a reasonable question from me cause such a furore among professed Christians on a Christian Forum? I wanted scripture or retraction. The insults that have been hurled at me are SO unreasonable that they border on frothing-at-the-mouth hysteria. Have any of you experienced anything similar from such a band of merry men who tend to follow the leader and will resort to and continue to perpetuate lies rather than be seen to be backing down? Why is it SO important for some Christians on Christian sites to hurl their hate message at homosexual people (or those they consider to be 'their supporters') that they refuse to even CONSIDER other alternatives or interpretations of the scriptures that they use to do so? What kind of mentality is taking place among Christians when the term 'debate' is seen to be a threat?

Obviously, I have my own theories but I'd be interested in input from the rest of you as I'm always anxious to learn something new.

[charles_hamm]

For a few weeks I've been 'lurking' on another Christian Forum wondering whether or not to sign up. Since I generally choose my battles to fight - those that I have an interest/knowledge in or, indeed, those that I may be quite passionate about - I DO have a habit of coming on pretty strong from the get-go. This, quite naturally, irks the 'oldies' of the forum somewhat that someone no one knows dares to jump in and rock the boat with barely a 'how-do-you-do'. I may very well feel the same about a new kid in town questioning something that we 'old timers' have already pretty well established. But, I hope not.

While I don't know if I should, or even that I'm allowed to, mention the forum by name, I DID sign up to it so that I could respond to a specific post that really annoyed me. The thread is about homosexuality/gay marriage (naturally) and is, as usual, a hot topic. I should have known better than to put in my nickel's worth because most of the posts on the 41 pages of debate (well, it's hardly a debate) are hostile to homosexuality because 'God sez that it's an abomination' and that's that! It was just like the lamb among the wolves scenerio and, as said, I should have known better. But, this one particular post by an 'old timer' and very popular with the other religious zealots made the claim: "The Lord finds homosexuality/gay marriage to be reprehensible." I just couldn't let that lie pass without some kind of recourse. So, I asked of the poster to either present the scripture that states that Jesus finds homosexuality/gay marriage to be reprehensible or retract the statement. I also said that I'd respect him for retracting the statement which would be the right thing for him to do since such a scripture does not exist and that I'd raise the issue no more. Well, all hell has broken loose by the poster in question and his band of like-minded forum buddies. I'm a stone's throw away from being banned (not that I really want to stick around anyway) simply because I asked for scripture to back the claim or a withdrawal of the statement. Obviously, I have the guy backed into a corner ...I know it and he knows it.

Question/s: Why would such a reasonable question from me cause such a furore among professed Christians on a Christian Forum? I wanted scripture or retraction. The insults that have been hurled at me are SO unreasonable that they border on frothing-at-the-mouth hysteria. Have any of you experienced anything similar from such a band of merry men who tend to follow the leader and will resort to and continue to perpetuate lies rather than be seen to be backing down? Why is it SO important for some Christians on Christian sites to hurl their hate message at homosexual people (or those they consider to be 'their supporters') that they refuse to even CONSIDER other alternatives or interpretations of the scriptures that they use to do so? What kind of mentality is taking place among Christians when the term 'debate' is seen to be a threat?

Obviously, I have my own theories but I'd be interested in input from the rest of you as I'm always anxious to learn something new.

Well,

1. Homesexuality is mentioned in the Bible as an act of unjustly behavior. Sodom and Gommorah etc.

Um, supporting scripture or a retraction of statement ...?

When are folks going to catch on that homosexuality (as an act of unjustly behavior ...whatever that might mean) is mentioned NOWHERE in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah ...!

2. Homosexuality is pure "lust" because within the Bible, it states sexual activities are done ONLY to bore.

Well, I'm not sure about the 'bore' part but I've often wondered myself if sex was given only for the means to procreate. I mean, God hardly comes across as a barrel of laughs so He may well not approve of recreational sex, i.e. sex for the mere pleasure of sex. Therefore, what would this mean . . .hmmm?

Leviticus 18:22
22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

While that passage doesn't appear to support what you say about sex being a bore and only for procreation I WOULD like to nail you down here and ask that you explain precisely WHAT the passage means and precisely for WHOM it was intended. Was it intended for the Levite priests as a part of their holiness code? Was it intended for those who were worshipping false gods such as Molech and participating in fertlility rituals and the like? Was it intended for the few local 'gays' in the tribe who were intimate in private? Who?

It was intended for the followers of Moses. The tribes of Israel.

So, you're fine with admitting that the Leviticus text isn't and never was for we in the 21st Century?

Actually since Jesus told the disciples to go and make believers of all the nations and he told the disciples to obey the Law, it applies no matter what century you live in.

[olso3827]

The homosexuality question is most easily answered in Romans 1:26-27.

"Because of this (exchanging the truth of God for a lie in worshiping creations rather than the creator), God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for perversion."

Homosexuality is a manifestation (along with all the other sins listed in verses 28-32) of our having already replaced God in our hearts with something else. The hard thing to do then is to react appropriately when discussing homosexuality. It is important to understand that homosexuality is a sin just as is every other sin that every single person on the planet is guilty of committing in some way. We have no right to judge being that we are guilty of doing equally sinful things. Unfortunately, there are many out there masquerading as Christians who are unable to respond appropriately to reasonable questions or concerns.

[Ooberman]

For a few weeks I've been 'lurking' on another Christian Forum wondering whether or not to sign up. Since I generally choose my battles to fight - those that I have an interest/knowledge in or, indeed, those that I may be quite passionate about - I DO have a habit of coming on pretty strong from the get-go. This, quite naturally, irks the 'oldies' of the forum somewhat that someone no one knows dares to jump in and rock the boat with barely a 'how-do-you-do'. I may very well feel the same about a new kid in town questioning something that we 'old timers' have already pretty well established. But, I hope not.

While I don't know if I should, or even that I'm allowed to, mention the forum by name, I DID sign up to it so that I could respond to a specific post that really annoyed me. The thread is about homosexuality/gay marriage (naturally) and is, as usual, a hot topic. I should have known better than to put in my nickel's worth because most of the posts on the 41 pages of debate (well, it's hardly a debate) are hostile to homosexuality because 'God sez that it's an abomination' and that's that! It was just like the lamb among the wolves scenerio and, as said, I should have known better. But, this one particular post by an 'old timer' and very popular with the other religious zealots made the claim: "The Lord finds homosexuality/gay marriage to be reprehensible." I just couldn't let that lie pass without some kind of recourse. So, I asked of the poster to either present the scripture that states that Jesus finds homosexuality/gay marriage to be reprehensible or retract the statement. I also said that I'd respect him for retracting the statement which would be the right thing for him to do since such a scripture does not exist and that I'd raise the issue no more. Well, all hell has broken loose by the poster in question and his band of like-minded forum buddies. I'm a stone's throw away from being banned (not that I really want to stick around anyway) simply because I asked for scripture to back the claim or a withdrawal of the statement. Obviously, I have the guy backed into a corner ...I know it and he knows it.

Question/s: Why would such a reasonable question from me cause such a furore among professed Christians on a Christian Forum? I wanted scripture or retraction. The insults that have been hurled at me are SO unreasonable that they border on frothing-at-the-mouth hysteria. Have any of you experienced anything similar from such a band of merry men who tend to follow the leader and will resort to and continue to perpetuate lies rather than be seen to be backing down? Why is it SO important for some Christians on Christian sites to hurl their hate message at homosexual people (or those they consider to be 'their supporters') that they refuse to even CONSIDER other alternatives or interpretations of the scriptures that they use to do so? What kind of mentality is taking place among Christians when the term 'debate' is seen to be a threat?

Obviously, I have my own theories but I'd be interested in input from the rest of you as I'm always anxious to learn something new.

Welcome to religious fundamentalism. This is what it's all about. And, you can extend your understanding of how these people deal criticisms to that the early Church Fathers, and heretics that followed, who were killed for believing the wrong interpretation. Killed by Christians. For example, Calvin having Servetus killed for heresy.

Look in the Bible, it equates heretics with Satan. There is a black or white understanding of how to address people who don't have the "proper" view of Christianity. It's why there is so much animosity between the Catholics and Prots, etc..

It's because of people like the guy you are referencing, and there seem to be thousands of those extremists.

I find it appalling that Man can get so worked up over religion and hypothetical beliefs. But, there it is.

There are evil people out there and they are willing to escalate the conversation into a argument and then a war. All over a little book.

[Rkrause]

For a few weeks I've been 'lurking' on another Christian Forum wondering whether or not to sign up. Since I generally choose my battles to fight - those that I have an interest/knowledge in or, indeed, those that I may be quite passionate about - I DO have a habit of coming on pretty strong from the get-go. This, quite naturally, irks the 'oldies' of the forum somewhat that someone no one knows dares to jump in and rock the boat with barely a 'how-do-you-do'. I may very well feel the same about a new kid in town questioning something that we 'old timers' have already pretty well established. But, I hope not.

While I don't know if I should, or even that I'm allowed to, mention the forum by name, I DID sign up to it so that I could respond to a specific post that really annoyed me. The thread is about homosexuality/gay marriage (naturally) and is, as usual, a hot topic. I should have known better than to put in my nickel's worth because most of the posts on the 41 pages of debate (well, it's hardly a debate) are hostile to homosexuality because 'God sez that it's an abomination' and that's that! It was just like the lamb among the wolves scenerio and, as said, I should have known better. But, this one particular post by an 'old timer' and very popular with the other religious zealots made the claim: "The Lord finds homosexuality/gay marriage to be reprehensible." I just couldn't let that lie pass without some kind of recourse. So, I asked of the poster to either present the scripture that states that Jesus finds homosexuality/gay marriage to be reprehensible or retract the statement. I also said that I'd respect him for retracting the statement which would be the right thing for him to do since such a scripture does not exist and that I'd raise the issue no more. Well, all hell has broken loose by the poster in question and his band of like-minded forum buddies. I'm a stone's throw away from being banned (not that I really want to stick around anyway) simply because I asked for scripture to back the claim or a withdrawal of the statement. Obviously, I have the guy backed into a corner ...I know it and he knows it.

Question/s: Why would such a reasonable question from me cause such a furore among professed Christians on a Christian Forum? I wanted scripture or retraction. The insults that have been hurled at me are SO unreasonable that they border on frothing-at-the-mouth hysteria. Have any of you experienced anything similar from such a band of merry men who tend to follow the leader and will resort to and continue to perpetuate lies rather than be seen to be backing down? Why is it SO important for some Christians on Christian sites to hurl their hate message at homosexual people (or those they consider to be 'their supporters') that they refuse to even CONSIDER other alternatives or interpretations of the scriptures that they use to do so? What kind of mentality is taking place among Christians when the term 'debate' is seen to be a threat?

Obviously, I have my own theories but I'd be interested in input from the rest of you as I'm always anxious to learn something new.

To answer your question about gay marriage. Jesus never stated anything about gay marriage which is true. However, Jesus only spoke about marriage being between a man and a women. In all the passages of Jesus talking about marriage it is always between a man and a women.

Also when you study the jewish culture you will find that homosexual marriage wasn't a topic at all because the OT clearly states that the acts of homosexuality are sinful.

[KCKID]

For a few weeks I've been 'lurking' on another Christian Forum wondering whether or not to sign up. Since I generally choose my battles to fight - those that I have an interest/knowledge in or, indeed, those that I may be quite passionate about - I DO have a habit of coming on pretty strong from the get-go. This, quite naturally, irks the 'oldies' of the forum somewhat that someone no one knows dares to jump in and rock the boat with barely a 'how-do-you-do'. I may very well feel the same about a new kid in town questioning something that we 'old timers' have already pretty well established. But, I hope not.

While I don't know if I should, or even that I'm allowed to, mention the forum by name, I DID sign up to it so that I could respond to a specific post that really annoyed me. The thread is about homosexuality/gay marriage (naturally) and is, as usual, a hot topic. I should have known better than to put in my nickel's worth because most of the posts on the 41 pages of debate (well, it's hardly a debate) are hostile to homosexuality because 'God sez that it's an abomination' and that's that! It was just like the lamb among the wolves scenerio and, as said, I should have known better. But, this one particular post by an 'old timer' and very popular with the other religious zealots made the claim: "The Lord finds homosexuality/gay marriage to be reprehensible." I just couldn't let that lie pass without some kind of recourse. So, I asked of the poster to either present the scripture that states that Jesus finds homosexuality/gay marriage to be reprehensible or retract the statement. I also said that I'd respect him for retracting the statement which would be the right thing for him to do since such a scripture does not exist and that I'd raise the issue no more. Well, all hell has broken loose by the poster in question and his band of like-minded forum buddies. I'm a stone's throw away from being banned (not that I really want to stick around anyway) simply because I asked for scripture to back the claim or a withdrawal of the statement. Obviously, I have the guy backed into a corner ...I know it and he knows it.

Question/s: Why would such a reasonable question from me cause such a furore among professed Christians on a Christian Forum? I wanted scripture or retraction. The insults that have been hurled at me are SO unreasonable that they border on frothing-at-the-mouth hysteria. Have any of you experienced anything similar from such a band of merry men who tend to follow the leader and will resort to and continue to perpetuate lies rather than be seen to be backing down? Why is it SO important for some Christians on Christian sites to hurl their hate message at homosexual people (or those they consider to be 'their supporters') that they refuse to even CONSIDER other alternatives or interpretations of the scriptures that they use to do so? What kind of mentality is taking place among Christians when the term 'debate' is seen to be a threat?

Obviously, I have my own theories but I'd be interested in input from the rest of you as I'm always anxious to learn something new.

To answer your question about gay marriage. Jesus never stated anything about gay marriage which is true.

Yes, of course I know that and I didn't ask that question per se. I challenged someone else to present a scripture that he claimed existed (but doesn't) or to otherwise withdraw his statement and admit that it was fallacious.

However, Jesus only spoke about marriage being between a man and a women. In all the passages of Jesus talking about marriage it is always between a man and a women.

Yes, of course but I don't know about 'all' or 'always'. Isn't there just 'one' passage when Jesus responds to a question about divorce where He actually references the 'man and woman' part from the Old Testament? It wasn't a 'command' for a man and woman to marry (either in the OT or by Jesus) but more so a 'norm'. Remember, men and women were intended to come together to procreate. As someone already mentioned, no sex for pleasure allowed!

Also when you study the jewish culture you will find that homosexual marriage wasn't a topic at all because the OT clearly states that the acts of homosexuality are sinful.

Yes, but it wasn't just homosexual marriage that Jesus didn't reference. He never said anything AT ALL about homosexuality. And, since homosexuality HAS become such a hot topic within Christian circles over the past whatever amount of years one might have expected Jesus to have said something about this great sin if it was, indeed, such a great sin.

That said, EVERY human trait is seen as sinful by the God of the Old Testament. He really DOES seem to view humans as abominations!

[KCKID]

Incidentally, a little while ago I completed a response to post #20 from charles_hamm. I clicked the 'Preview' button and was told that I wasn't logged in. For some reason I'm logged out whenever I leave the site, even though I've asked to be permanently logged in. ANYWAY, I logged in and found that I couldn't return to or retrieve my response to post #20. It was gone. Needless to say, having spent about an hour constructing the post I was somewhat p----d off.

Why is there not a fail-safe device of some sort in place to prevent this kind of thing from happening? Anyway, charles_hamm, I DID try to respond to your post and, right now anyway, I don't have the patience to begin again. Maybe later.

[Rkrause]

For a few weeks I've been 'lurking' on another Christian Forum wondering whether or not to sign up. Since I generally choose my battles to fight - those that I have an interest/knowledge in or, indeed, those that I may be quite passionate about - I DO have a habit of coming on pretty strong from the get-go. This, quite naturally, irks the 'oldies' of the forum somewhat that someone no one knows dares to jump in and rock the boat with barely a 'how-do-you-do'. I may very well feel the same about a new kid in town questioning something that we 'old timers' have already pretty well established. But, I hope not.

While I don't know if I should, or even that I'm allowed to, mention the forum by name, I DID sign up to it so that I could respond to a specific post that really annoyed me. The thread is about homosexuality/gay marriage (naturally) and is, as usual, a hot topic. I should have known better than to put in my nickel's worth because most of the posts on the 41 pages of debate (well, it's hardly a debate) are hostile to homosexuality because 'God sez that it's an abomination' and that's that! It was just like the lamb among the wolves scenerio and, as said, I should have known better. But, this one particular post by an 'old timer' and very popular with the other religious zealots made the claim: "The Lord finds homosexuality/gay marriage to be reprehensible." I just couldn't let that lie pass without some kind of recourse. So, I asked of the poster to either present the scripture that states that Jesus finds homosexuality/gay marriage to be reprehensible or retract the statement. I also said that I'd respect him for retracting the statement which would be the right thing for him to do since such a scripture does not exist and that I'd raise the issue no more. Well, all hell has broken loose by the poster in question and his band of like-minded forum buddies. I'm a stone's throw away from being banned (not that I really want to stick around anyway) simply because I asked for scripture to back the claim or a withdrawal of the statement. Obviously, I have the guy backed into a corner ...I know it and he knows it.

Question/s: Why would such a reasonable question from me cause such a furore among professed Christians on a Christian Forum? I wanted scripture or retraction. The insults that have been hurled at me are SO unreasonable that they border on frothing-at-the-mouth hysteria. Have any of you experienced anything similar from such a band of merry men who tend to follow the leader and will resort to and continue to perpetuate lies rather than be seen to be backing down? Why is it SO important for some Christians on Christian sites to hurl their hate message at homosexual people (or those they consider to be 'their supporters') that they refuse to even CONSIDER other alternatives or interpretations of the scriptures that they use to do so? What kind of mentality is taking place among Christians when the term 'debate' is seen to be a threat?

Obviously, I have my own theories but I'd be interested in input from the rest of you as I'm always anxious to learn something new.

To answer your question about gay marriage. Jesus never stated anything about gay marriage which is true.

Yes, of course I know that and I didn't ask that question per se. I challenged someone else to present a scripture that he claimed existed (but doesn't) or to otherwise withdraw his statement and admit that it was fallacious.

However, Jesus only spoke about marriage being between a man and a women. In all the passages of Jesus talking about marriage it is always between a man and a women.

Yes, of course but I don't know about 'all' or 'always'. Isn't there just 'one' passage when Jesus responds to a question about divorce where He actually references the 'man and woman' part from the Old Testament? It wasn't a 'command' for a man and woman to marry (either in the OT or by Jesus) but more so a 'norm'. Remember, men and women were intended to come together to procreate. As someone already mentioned, no sex for pleasure allowed!

Also when you study the jewish culture you will find that homosexual marriage wasn't a topic at all because the OT clearly states that the acts of homosexuality are sinful.

Yes, but it wasn't just homosexual marriage that Jesus didn't reference. He never said anything AT ALL about homosexuality. And, since homosexuality HAS become such a hot topic within Christian circles over the past whatever amount of years one might have expected Jesus to have said something about this great sin if it was, indeed, such a great sin.

That said, EVERY human trait is seen as sinful by the God of the Old Testament. He really DOES seem to view humans as abominations!

I agree the other person should have retracted his statement if there wasn't any Biblical writings to support what he claimed.

I do believe that Jesus talked about the Levitical laws because we have quotes in the Bible attributed to Jesus saying them. Also we have the passage about Jesus "teaching with authority". Hence, the acts of homosexuality would have come up within Jesus's teachings about Gods laws. I can't prove that with scripture of course but I can speculate it occured.

Paul also speaks about the acts of homosexuality as being sinful. I bring this up because Paul's ministry was to the Gentiles who didn't believe that the acts of homosexuality were sinful. Paul was a Jewish Pharisee and would have taught the same OT laws as Jesus.

Really addressing the acts of homosexuality and what is written in the Bible is from the perspective of who is being addressed. Jesus taught to the Jews who already believed the acts of homosexuality were sinful, so nothing is mentioned in the Bible. Paul and others witnessed to the Gentiles who believed the acts of homosexuality were natural (and a good thing in some cases) so the Bible addresses it.

[100%atheist]

Yes, it is considered sin. That is why, chastitiy.

Christians shouldnt have sex before marriage in the first place. That is what is told in the Bible.

Leviticus 18:22
22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

Sorry, they do have a point according to the holy scriptures.

According to the same book of Leviticus, just a few chapters before chapter 18, God supposedly tells Moses that eating certain types of anymals and fish is an abomination onto you. Unless you are the one of very few Christians, who follow every holy line in Leviticus 18 AND 11, what makes you to choose Leviticus 18 as an authoritative text informing your actions and skip Leviticus 11 as irrelevant? What is your rational for picking one part of the book and not another one?

After all:
Pinch the tail
Suck the head
Burn in Hell
http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/

[charles_hamm]

Incidentally, a little while ago I completed a response to post #20 from charles_hamm. I clicked the 'Preview' button and was told that I wasn't logged in. For some reason I'm logged out whenever I leave the site, even though I've asked to be permanently logged in. ANYWAY, I logged in and found that I couldn't return to or retrieve my response to post #20. It was gone. Needless to say, having spent about an hour constructing the post I was somewhat p----d off.

Why is there not a fail-safe device of some sort in place to prevent this kind of thing from happening? Anyway, charles_hamm, I DID try to respond to your post and, right
now anyway, I don't have the patience to begin again. Maybe later.

Not a problem. I've had the same happen to me.

[100%atheist]

For a few weeks I've been 'lurking' on another Christian Forum wondering whether or not to sign up. ....

...
Question/s: Why would such a reasonable question from me cause such a furore among professed Christians on a Christian Forum? I wanted scripture or retraction. The insults that have been hurled at me are SO unreasonable that they border on frothing-at-the-mouth hysteria. Have any of you experienced anything similar from such a band of merry men who tend to follow the leader and will resort to and continue to perpetuate lies rather than be seen to be backing down? Why is it SO important for some Christians on Christian sites to hurl their hate message at homosexual people (or those they consider to be 'their supporters') that they refuse to even CONSIDER other alternatives or interpretations of the scriptures that they use to do so? What kind of mentality is taking place among Christians when the term 'debate' is seen to be a threat?

Obviously, I have my own theories but I'd be interested in input from the rest of you as I'm always anxious to learn something new.

I had a very similar experience with a Christian forum. Perhaps I asked too many questions, or rejected an idea that I, as an atheist, should be inferior to Christians on that forum. That forum, by the way, was an evangelical forum and they considered Catholics as heretics and Catholicism as a cult... I was banned from the forum in a few days for some 20+ years. Surprisingly, they didn't ban me for ever and ever.

So, I think Christian forums are not good platforms for any sort of interreligious or religion/atheism debate, and your experience is unfortunately typical.

If a single book presumably informes actions of groups that populates Christian forums, and most of the members of the groups haven't read the book, any meaningful discussion is not likely possible.