Christian Forums ...Why?

[KCKID]

For a few weeks I've been 'lurking' on another Christian Forum wondering whether or not to sign up. Since I generally choose my battles to fight - those that I have an interest/knowledge in or, indeed, those that I may be quite passionate about - I DO have a habit of coming on pretty strong from the get-go. This, quite naturally, irks the 'oldies' of the forum somewhat that someone no one knows dares to jump in and rock the boat with barely a 'how-do-you-do'. I may very well feel the same about a new kid in town questioning something that we 'old timers' have already pretty well established. But, I hope not.

While I don't know if I should, or even that I'm allowed to, mention the forum by name, I DID sign up to it so that I could respond to a specific post that really annoyed me. The thread is about homosexuality/gay marriage (naturally) and is, as usual, a hot topic. I should have known better than to put in my nickel's worth because most of the posts on the 41 pages of debate (well, it's hardly a debate) are hostile to homosexuality because 'God sez that it's an abomination' and that's that! It was just like the lamb among the wolves scenerio and, as said, I should have known better. But, this one particular post by an 'old timer' and very popular with the other religious zealots made the claim: "The Lord finds homosexuality/gay marriage to be reprehensible." I just couldn't let that lie pass without some kind of recourse. So, I asked of the poster to either present the scripture that states that Jesus finds homosexuality/gay marriage to be reprehensible or retract the statement. I also said that I'd respect him for retracting the statement which would be the right thing for him to do since such a scripture does not exist and that I'd raise the issue no more. Well, all hell has broken loose by the poster in question and his band of like-minded forum buddies. I'm a stone's throw away from being banned (not that I really want to stick around anyway) simply because I asked for scripture to back the claim or a withdrawal of the statement. Obviously, I have the guy backed into a corner ...I know it and he knows it.

Question/s: Why would such a reasonable question from me cause such a furore among professed Christians on a Christian Forum? I wanted scripture or retraction. The insults that have been hurled at me are SO unreasonable that they border on frothing-at-the-mouth hysteria. Have any of you experienced anything similar from such a band of merry men who tend to follow the leader and will resort to and continue to perpetuate lies rather than be seen to be backing down? Why is it SO important for some Christians on Christian sites to hurl their hate message at homosexual people (or those they consider to be 'their supporters') that they refuse to even CONSIDER other alternatives or interpretations of the scriptures that they use to do so? What kind of mentality is taking place among Christians when the term 'debate' is seen to be a threat?

Obviously, I have my own theories but I'd be interested in input from the rest of you as I'm always anxious to learn something new.

[charles_hamm]

Christians are in a difficult situation if they know enough about the words suppose to be quoted by Jesus and how it relates to the old testament........

Christ makes it very clear that the law of the old testament will not be tampered with and will remain intact..........he claims to fullfill that law.............he makes reference to both the garden and the flood as actual events..............he also reference to slavery without ever condeming it.

If a person of faith has read the whole Bible they would see that the clash of old the new testament is completely and culturally lost in dealing with social issues today.

I don't see how this is a difficult situation. The Bible addresses issues that happen today. In my opinion, the fact that some groups don't like or accept the way the Bible addresses these issue doesn't put Christians in a difficult situation at all. The Bible is not a book that is meant to be updated every so many years to reflect the current issues. If you read it carefully it addressed them when it was first written and those principles still stand today.

Principles still stand today?..................owning slaves and the right to beat them until near death?........................stoning children to death for cursing their parents? .......I could go one but you can read it for yourself.......

and Christ saying this about those laws from Moses?........Mathew 5:18?

The verses on slaves actually tell Jews how to treat them (and it's not to beat them to death). Also some of those verses deal with Canaanites slaves and no others. There is not a single recorded case of a Jewish child being stoned to death so the threat of violence was very effective and in the end the act of violence has never had to be used.

[PghPanther]

Christians are in a difficult situation if they know enough about the words suppose to be quoted by Jesus and how it relates to the old testament........

Christ makes it very clear that the law of the old testament will not be tampered with and will remain intact..........he claims to fullfill that law.............he makes reference to both the garden and the flood as actual events..............he also reference to slavery without ever condeming it.

If a person of faith has read the whole Bible they would see that the clash of old the new testament is completely and culturally lost in dealing with social issues today.

I don't see how this is a difficult situation. The Bible addresses issues that happen today. In my opinion, the fact that some groups don't like or accept the way the Bible addresses these issue doesn't put Christians in a difficult situation at all. The Bible is not a book that is meant to be updated every so many years to reflect the current issues. If you read it carefully it addressed them when it was first written and those principles still stand today.

Principles still stand today?..................owning slaves and the right to beat them until near death?........................stoning children to death for cursing their parents? .......I could go one but you can read it for yourself.......

and Christ saying this about those laws from Moses?........Mathew 5:18?

The verses on slaves actually tell Jews how to treat them (and it's not to beat them to death). Also some of those verses deal with Canaanites slaves and no others. There is not a single recorded case of a Jewish child being stoned to death so the threat of violence was very effective and in the end the act of violence has never had to be used.

The verse points out that a slave (non Jewish) if was beaten and didn't die within one to two days that their master would not be liable for any crime.........

There are over 600 laws in the old testament beyond the ten commandments which have numerous issues with morality in todays society...........the belief that sickness was caused by unclean spirits and how to deal with them....and women held as property and in some cases pointed out to have less value than cattle.......

Its just an awful text to consider holy.........and reeks of limited cultural human knowledge, especially those scirptures as quotes from God ... rather than being the word of a supernatural deity.....

[AdHoc]

But most Christians will probably never concede that homosexuality is 'okay'. I doubt that this animosity toward homosexuality is driven by anything the Bible may or may not say about the subject anyway. Most Christians simply use the Bible to support their own 'unease' about homosexuality. Using the Bible/God/Jesus to condemn homosexuality is just a smoke screen and is deception big time! People have been using the Bible for such purposes pretty well forever. As I've said many times on this forum, if Christians were REALLY concerned about 'what God sez' they would be just as zealously opposed to divorce and remarriage as they are toward homosexuality ...actually much more so since the former is FAR MORE rampant within the Church. That they don't seem to bat an eye over this speaks volumes as to their REAL intent toward homosexuality which is nothing to do with the Bible but purely personal.

That's actually a really good point, there is no scriptural support for remarriage after divorce but that hasn't stopped some people from asserting there is

I have just been informed in this very thread that the "age of homophobe bashing is about to begin".

These are just words and probably little more. I wouldn't take it too seriously. But then again, if a person IS actually a homophobe and continually shows their backside in making life unpleasnt for the homosexual then perhaps, yes, their butt needs to be kicked.

Let's hope at this point they do not escalate the conflict but decide instead to turn the other cheek.
(insert collective groan here)

This shouldn't concern me personally because I have nothing against homosexuals and I do not consider myself a homophobe... Problem is other people probably do because I disagree with homosexuality.

The only ones that I would call homophobes would be those who, as said above, go out of their way to make life unpleasant for the homosexual. That said, I don't think that it's a matter of agreeing with or not agreeing with homosexuality. It's a matter of acknowledging that homosexuals are real people with real needs and leave it at that. I hate rap music with a passion and so I don't listen to it. Likewise, for those who are not tuned into homosexuality, then don't participate in it.

Whoa... Whoa... Whoa... Why you all hatin' on rap music?
It's da bomb KC
Peace out

Actually there are at least four verses I know of that deal with divorce and remarriage.

Matthew 5:32
But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

This is the exception claus for sexual immorality.

1 Corinthians 7:15
But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace.

This usually considered another exception since it pertains to unequally yoked relationships. I doesn't directly say a believer can but it is from my experience taught this way.

Romans 7:2,3
A married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives. This means that if she is married to another man while her first husband is alive, she is guilty of adultery. She is free to remarry without guilt only if her husband is dead.

The final exception is death. Marriage is a covenant during life but if the spouse dies the husband/wife is free to remarry.

As for the homophobe bashing statement (from another poster), that is taking things a bit too far.

None of those verses make any provision for remarriage except in the case of death. Divorce is not the same thing as divorce and remarriage... You mentioned 4 verses what's the fourth?

[southern cross]

Christians are in a difficult situation if they know enough about the words suppose to be quoted by Jesus and how it relates to the old testament........

Christ makes it very clear that the law of the old testament will not be tampered with and will remain intact..........he claims to fullfill that law.............he makes reference to both the garden and the flood as actual events..............he also reference to slavery without ever condeming it.

If a person of faith has read the whole Bible they would see that the clash of old the new testament is completely and culturally lost in dealing with social issues today.

I don't see how this is a difficult situation. The Bible addresses issues that happen today. In my opinion, the fact that some groups don't like or accept the way the Bible addresses these issue doesn't put Christians in a difficult situation at all. The Bible is not a book that is meant to be updated every so many years to reflect the current issues. If you read it carefully it addressed them when it was first written and those principles still stand today.

Rape and genocide and the slaughter of innocents is always appropriate. Now I get it.

Please provide specific examples and I'll address them. Otherwise I don't see where you are going here.

The slaughter of the first born in Egypt.
The slaughter of babies and the unborn in the flood. (we won't even start on every living thing)
The slaughter of babies and the unborn in the Sodom and Gomorrah.

[Goat]

Christians are in a difficult situation if they know enough about the words suppose to be quoted by Jesus and how it relates to the old testament........

Christ makes it very clear that the law of the old testament will not be tampered with and will remain intact..........he claims to fullfill that law.............he makes reference to both the garden and the flood as actual events..............he also reference to slavery without ever condeming it.

If a person of faith has read the whole Bible they would see that the clash of old the new testament is completely and culturally lost in dealing with social issues today.

Jesus also praises men like Moses and Samson, the Hitler and Suicide bombers of their day.

Please provide proof Moses was like Hitler and Samson was a suicide bomber or please retract your statement.

Well, let's look at Samson.. and let's look how the story had him die.

16:30 And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life.

Isn't that exactly what the suicide bombers are doing, for what they think are 'reasons of righteousness'??

As for Moses and the Exodus.. well, look at all those innocent first Born that were killed because of Moses being in a snit...

[charles_hamm]

But most Christians will probably never concede that homosexuality is 'okay'. I doubt that this animosity toward homosexuality is driven by anything the Bible may or may not say about the subject anyway. Most Christians simply use the Bible to support their own 'unease' about homosexuality. Using the Bible/God/Jesus to condemn homosexuality is just a smoke screen and is deception big time! People have been using the Bible for such purposes pretty well forever. As I've said many times on this forum, if Christians were REALLY concerned about 'what God sez' they would be just as zealously opposed to divorce and remarriage as they are toward homosexuality ...actually much more so since the former is FAR MORE rampant within the Church. That they don't seem to bat an eye over this speaks volumes as to their REAL intent toward homosexuality which is nothing to do with the Bible but purely personal.

That's actually a really good point, there is no scriptural support for remarriage after divorce but that hasn't stopped some people from asserting there is

I have just been informed in this very thread that the "age of homophobe bashing is about to begin".

These are just words and probably little more. I wouldn't take it too seriously. But then again, if a person IS actually a homophobe and continually shows their backside in making life unpleasnt for the homosexual then perhaps, yes, their butt needs to be kicked.

Let's hope at this point they do not escalate the conflict but decide instead to turn the other cheek.
(insert collective groan here)

This shouldn't concern me personally because I have nothing against homosexuals and I do not consider myself a homophobe... Problem is other people probably do because I disagree with homosexuality.

The only ones that I would call homophobes would be those who, as said above, go out of their way to make life unpleasant for the homosexual. That said, I don't think that it's a matter of agreeing with or not agreeing with homosexuality. It's a matter of acknowledging that homosexuals are real people with real needs and leave it at that. I hate rap music with a passion and so I don't listen to it. Likewise, for those who are not tuned into homosexuality, then don't participate in it.

Whoa... Whoa... Whoa... Why you all hatin' on rap music?
It's da bomb KC
Peace out

Actually there are at least four verses I know of that deal with divorce and remarriage.

Matthew 5:32
But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

This is the exception claus for sexual immorality.

1 Corinthians 7:15
But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace.

This usually considered another exception since it pertains to unequally yoked relationships. I doesn't directly say a believer can but it is from my experience taught this way.

Romans 7:2,3
A married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives. This means that if she is married to another man while her first husband is alive, she is guilty of adultery. She is free to remarry without guilt only if her husband is dead.

The final exception is death. Marriage is a covenant during life but if the spouse dies the husband/wife is free to remarry.

As for the homophobe bashing statement (from another poster), that is taking things a bit too far.

None of those verses make any provision for remarriage except in the case of death. Divorce is not the same thing as divorce and remarriage... You mentioned 4 verses what's the fourth?

Matthew 5:32 says that it is not adultery to marry a divorced person IF that person divorced their spouse for committing adultery. This verse gives the grounds on which a divorced person can get remarried.

1 Corinthians 7:15 shows grounds for a divorce from a non believer by a believer. I thought I made it clear that it doesn't directly mention remarriage but in my experience remarriage has been allowed under this verse. If I didn't make that clear, I apologize.

Romans 7:2-3 Allows for remarriage of a widow.

I was considering Romans 7:2 and Romans 7:3 as two verses. Sorry for any confusion there.

[charles_hamm]

Christians are in a difficult situation if they know enough about the words suppose to be quoted by Jesus and how it relates to the old testament........

Christ makes it very clear that the law of the old testament will not be tampered with and will remain intact..........he claims to fullfill that law.............he makes reference to both the garden and the flood as actual events..............he also reference to slavery without ever condeming it.

If a person of faith has read the whole Bible they would see that the clash of old the new testament is completely and culturally lost in dealing with social issues today.

I don't see how this is a difficult situation. The Bible addresses issues that happen today. In my opinion, the fact that some groups don't like or accept the way the Bible addresses these issue doesn't put Christians in a difficult situation at all. The Bible is not a book that is meant to be updated every so many years to reflect the current issues. If you read it carefully it addressed them when it was first written and those principles still stand today.

Rape and genocide and the slaughter of innocents is always appropriate. Now I get it.

Please provide specific examples and I'll address them. Otherwise I don't see where you are going here.

The slaughter of the first born in Egypt.

This was the last of the ten plagues placed upon Egypt. Moses asked then told Pharaoh to let the Jews go free. The plagues got worse with each time Pharaoh refused to release the Jews from slavery. All Pharaoh had to do was release slaves from captivity. He brought the death of the first borns upon his kingdom by not releasing the Jews from their slavery. I would say that considering he had multiple opportunities to release the Jewish slaves God's judgement, and the mercy that preceded it, was appropriate.

The slaughter of babies and the unborn in the flood. (we won't even start on every living thing)

You mean when God wiped out an unbelieving world. You might want to read the scripture on this. Noah tried and tried to tell the people that the flood was coming and they chose not to listen. They were given chance after chance and they refused to change. God passed judgement on them for this. That is appropriate.

The slaughter of babies and the unborn in the Sodom and Gomorrah.

You used two cities that were considered the wickedest of the wicked. Abraham plead to the Lord to spare them if he could find ten righteous people. He couldn't. That should tell you all you need to know.

[charles_hamm]

Christians are in a difficult situation if they know enough about the words suppose to be quoted by Jesus and how it relates to the old testament........

Christ makes it very clear that the law of the old testament will not be tampered with and will remain intact..........he claims to fullfill that law.............he makes reference to both the garden and the flood as actual events..............he also reference to slavery without ever condeming it.

If a person of faith has read the whole Bible they would see that the clash of old the new testament is completely and culturally lost in dealing with social issues today.

Jesus also praises men like Moses and Samson, the Hitler and Suicide bombers of their day.

Please provide proof Moses was like Hitler and Samson was a suicide bomber or please retract your statement.

Well, let's look at Samson.. and let's look how the story had him die.

16:30 And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life.

Isn't that exactly what the suicide bombers are doing, for what they think are 'reasons of righteousness'??

Not even close. Samson was a prisoner of the Philistines. He had been tortured (his eyes were gouged out) and was being paraded in front of the Philistines during one of their religious festivals. Suicide bombers are not prisoners of anyone. They inflict damage and death unprovoked (yes I know they feel they have reasons of righteousness). Samson killed his captures after they wounded him. He was provoked. Also please look at the fact he was blind. He could not have been sure what they were doing to him.

As for Moses and the Exodus.. well, look at all those innocent first Born that were killed because of Moses being in a snit...

Let's see. God gave Pharaoh multiple chances to release the Jewish slaves. Pharaoh refused. The death of the first born was not the first plague. It was the last. God did not just walk in and kill all the innocent first borns. They were killed because their Pharaoh refused to release his slaves. Moses only warned Pharaoh of what would happen if he didn't let them go.

[Bust Nak]

This was the last of the ten plagues placed upon Egypt. Moses asked then told Pharaoh to let the Jews go free. The plagues got worse with each time Pharaoh refused to release the Jews from slavery. All Pharaoh had to do was release slaves from captivity. He brought the death of the first borns upon his kingdom by not releasing the Jews from their slavery. I would say that considering he had multiple opportunities to release the Jewish slaves God's judgement, and the mercy that preceded it, was appropriate.

You mean when God wiped out an unbelieving world. You might want to read the scripture on this. Noah tried and tried to tell the people that the flood was coming and they chose not to listen. They were given chance after chance and they refused to change. God passed judgement on them for this. That is appropriate.

You used two cities that were considered the wickedest of the wicked. Abraham plead to the Lord to spare them if he could find ten righteous people. He couldn't. That should tell you all you need to know.

Your explaination doesn't make these stories sound any more appropriate or any less murderious. Try and look at these stories from the point of view of someone who doesn't treat everything that God does as just a priori. God killed people for not obeying his prophets.

[Goat]

Christians are in a difficult situation if they know enough about the words suppose to be quoted by Jesus and how it relates to the old testament........

Christ makes it very clear that the law of the old testament will not be tampered with and will remain intact..........he claims to fullfill that law.............he makes reference to both the garden and the flood as actual events..............he also reference to slavery without ever condeming it.

If a person of faith has read the whole Bible they would see that the clash of old the new testament is completely and culturally lost in dealing with social issues today.

Jesus also praises men like Moses and Samson, the Hitler and Suicide bombers of their day.

Please provide proof Moses was like Hitler and Samson was a suicide bomber or please retract your statement.

Well, let's look at Samson.. and let's look how the story had him die.

16:30 And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life.

Isn't that exactly what the suicide bombers are doing, for what they think are 'reasons of righteousness'??

Not even close. Samson was a prisoner of the Philistines. He had been tortured (his eyes were gouged out) and was being paraded in front of the Philistines during one of their religious festivals. Suicide bombers are not prisoners of anyone. They inflict damage and death unprovoked (yes I know they feel they have reasons of righteousness). Samson killed his captures after they wounded him. He was provoked. Also please look at the fact he was blind. He could not have been sure what they were doing to him.

As for Moses and the Exodus.. well, look at all those innocent first Born that were killed because of Moses being in a snit...

Let's see. God gave Pharaoh multiple chances to release the Jewish slaves. Pharaoh refused. The death of the first born was not the first plague. It was the last. God did not just walk in and kill all the innocent first borns. They were killed because their Pharaoh refused to release his slaves. Moses only warned Pharaoh of what would happen if he didn't let them go.

Ah yes... excuses .. But.. as far as I can see, excuses are excuses. I am sure the suicide bombers had excuses for their actions too.

And killing innocents are killing innocents.. Excuses don't matter.