Give one reason or argument that God doesnt exist

[austin12345]

Try and give one reason philosophically or scientifically that God doesnt exist, but not one emotionally.

[100%atheist]

Because if entropy can be reset we must reject the second law of thermodynamics.

"Resetting" entropy can meen one of two things:
1) the system is not isolated
2) we don't konw thermodynamics of the universe.

You cannot 'reject' a working physics law. If new evidence is found that cannot be described by the law then new theory is needed that would describe new phenomena AND all phenomena that is it will include the existing lawa as a special case.

[olavisjo]

Two comments:
1) The entropy does not necessarily increase indefinetely. It can reach some maximum corresponding to the equilibrium. This is what is called the heat death of the universe. Note that the entropy is NOT infinite at equilibrium.

I agree, the scale is backwards. It should start as large number that represents ability for heat to flow and approach zero where heat can no longer flow.

2) The universe expansion creates new space and new entropy, there are black holes and other interesting objecst around. The universe as a thermodynamic system has never been at equilibrium and its entropy is generally unknown.

What does the universe expand into?

Black holes will all evaporate by Hawking radiation, given enough time.

[100%atheist]

[Replying to post 42 by olavisjo]

Sorry, I really don't understand what you are saying.
What should start as a large number?
Why should the universe expand into anything?
Why black holes 'evaporate'? Why couldn't they reach thermal equilibrium with the rest of the universe?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

So using a common definition - the capacity to do work - it seems obvious that any hypothetical god would have abundant energy. Thus energy is not created in a theistic system, it simply changes form, as we know it does.

Abundant energy to reform energy? Well hypothetically perhaps. But not to create energy. What is your definition of a God? Because humans have the ability to reform energy. But we're not Gods. What you are theorizing is simply a higher form of technology then ours. We have a higher form of technology then the ancient Sumerians. But we're still not Gods. Only more knowledgeable then they were.

Genesis 1
[1] "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

If energy cannot be created then there are no discrete beginnings. Only a never ending series of ever receding cause and effect.

***

Energy
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In physics, energy is an indirectly observed quantity which comes in many forms, such as kinetic energy, potential energy, radiant energy, and many others; which are listed in this summary article. This is a major topic in science and technology and this article gives an overview of its major aspects, and provides links to the many specific articles about energy in its different forms and contexts.

The question "what is energy?" is difficult to answer in a simple, intuitive way, although energy can be rigorously defined in theoretical physics. In the words of Richard Feynman, "It is important to realize that in physics today, we have no knowledge what energy is. We do not have a picture that energy comes in little blobs of a definite amount.".

However, it is clear that energy is always an indispensable prerequisite for performing mechanical work, and the concept has great importance in natural science. The natural basic units in which energy is measured are those used for mechanical work; they always are equivalent to a unit of force multiplied by a unit of length. Other equivalent units for energy are mass units multiplied by velocity units squared.

Energy exists in many forms:

Heat, a form of energy, is partly potential energy and partly kinetic energy.
In the context of physical sciences, several forms of energy have been defined. These include:

Thermal energy
Chemical energy
Electric energy
Radiant energy, the energy of electromagnetic radiation
Nuclear energy
Magnetic energy
Elastic energy
Sound energy
Mechanical energy
Luminous energy
Mass (E=mc²)

These forms of energy may be divided into two main groups; kinetic energy and potential energy. Other familiar types of energy are a varying mix of both potential and kinetic energy.

Energy may be transformed between different forms at various efficiencies. Items that transform between these forms are called transducers.

The above list of the known possible forms of energy is not necessarily complete. Whenever physical scientists discover that a certain phenomenon appears to violate the law of energy conservation, new forms may be added, as is the case with dark energy, a hypothetical form of energy that permeates all of space and tends to increase the rate of expansion of the universe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy

[olavisjo]

[Replying to post 42 by olavisjo]

Sorry, I really don't understand what you are saying.
What should start as a large number?

We should use enthalpy rather than entropy.

Why should the universe expand into anything?

When you expand a balloon, the balloon expands into the space around it. When the universe expands there is no space around it to expand into since space is itself a part of the universe. So the universe must be expanding into nothing if it is indeed expanding at all.

Why black holes 'evaporate'? Why couldn't they reach thermal equilibrium with the rest of the universe?

Black holes have a relatively low level of entropy, so they will evaporate to a higher level of entropy over time.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of an isolated
system never decreases, because isolated systems spontaneously evolve
towards thermodynamic equilibrium—the state of maximum entropy.

If energy had existed eternally, as Tired of the Nonsense alluded to, then entropy would be infinite. The universe would have experienced "heat death" in the infinite past, and we would not be having this conversation.

So, either the second law of thermodynamics is wrong or energy has not existed eternally.

Did physicists create a second law for the purpose of violating the first law? That would seem a silly thing to do, would it not? The second law is widely misunderstood, and widely misused, typically by theists. What you are referring to is the "flat universe" model, one possible model by which the universe expands eternally. There is a law which governs this possibility however. It's called gravity. The second law of thermodynamics states that a maximum entropy exists in a closed system. It makes no statement at all of a theoretical open system. Since, clearly, the universe is not experiencing "heat death" now, it has not experienced "heat death" in the infinite past. And since we ARE having this conversation, then just as clearly it does not occur. Energy constantly reforms itself. Consider a black hole, which is an example of matter reorganizing itself into a high state of energy.

Second law of thermodynamics
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of an isolated system never decreases, because isolated systems spontaneously evolve towards thermodynamic equilibrium—the state of maximum entropy.

[Divine Insight]

The OP of this thread is not explicitly advocating Islam, or Christianity, or Judaism or Hinduism - it's simply asking for good reasons or arguments to believe that a God does not exist. Claiming that one specific view of God should be obvious to all people (when that is not the case across the board of either social or scientific views) is not a reason to believe that a God does not exist. At most, it's a reason to believe that particular view of God is incorrect.

That's baloney. This thread is in the category of Christianity and Apologetics.

Moreover, without defining a God what sense does it even make to ask whether or not a God exists?

Almost everyone is willing to accept that Zeus has been proven to be a false mythology. Therefore "God" had been proven to not exist in that case.

Unless they want to accept that Zeus has every bit as much credibility as any other God. In which case they'd need to confess that Greek Mythology is on precisely equal footing with Hebrew mythology, and ever other God myth you can point to.

So I disagree that this was the OP's intent. This is in Christianity and Apologetic and people tend to be narrow-minded because of all the atheists versus theists debates, that they tend to think solely in terms of either the Abrahamic picture being true, or atheism being true with most other religions already considered to be "out of the running".

As far as I'm concerned it's just as easy to disprove the Hebrew Abrahamic God as it was to disprove the Greek Zeus. So if they are going to ask for proofs that a "God" does not exist, they need to define what they mean by "God".

[Divine Insight]

On Physics and God

Just as a comment on the conversations about energy and entropy.

I think those kinds of arguments against the existence of a "God in general" are totally futile.

The science of physics can't really say anything beyond describing what we experience.

Some religions hold that all of reality is but a dream in the mind of a God. If that's true, the physics is nothing more than observations about the dream. Physics can never say anything about what is actually creating the dream.

So how could physics ever hope to disprove the existence of anything "supernatural" ever? It can't. It's simply not in a position to do that.

If reality is a dream and we are restricted to only be able to experience the dream than all physics can ever do is make direct statements about what the dream appear to be about.

In fact, the science of physics has already indicated to us that there are things going on "behind the scenes" that we can never know.

In other words, the science of physics has already shown us that there is more to reality than we can ever hope to perceive. Quantum Mechanics, the Heisenberg Uncertain Principle, and the observation of Complementarity show us that we can never know the true nature of what's causing the dream of life that we are experiencing.

So any attempt to rule out the existence of anything "Supernatural" via arguments of the conservation of energy or the laws of entropy are entirely futile. Such physical laws would be laws of the dream. NOT the laws of the dreamer.

In other words, it's foolish to attempt to extend our "Laws of Physics" onto a supernatural creator that might be behind the scenes of reality.

So we can never hope to rule out a "God" using physics.

But clearly we do "rule out Gods" based on how absurd their myths are. Almost everyone will agree that the Greek God of Zeus has been "ruled out" for all practical purposes simply because the myths are so unrealistic.

What truly surprises me is why they aren't ruling out the Hebrew myths of the God of Abraham for precisely the same reasons.

The myth alone can be used to dismiss the Biblical God as being absurd. There's no need to even bring science into the picture.

[PhiloKGB]

The universe is all that exists, if the universe has any surroundings then it is not the universe. The universe is a closed system because energy can't enter or exit the system.

No. The universe, in the sense that it is a thermodynamic system at all, is an isolated system.

If the second law of thermodynamics does not apply to the universe then the law is wrong.

Your middle name had better be DeGrasse before you go about making such sweeping statements. My guess is you're working substantially on intuition right now, and intuition is largely the absolute wrong way to go about determining the thermodynamic status of the universe.

[100%atheist]

[Replying to post 42 by olavisjo]

Sorry, I really don't understand what you are saying.
What should start as a large number?

We should use enthalpy rather than entropy.

Why enthalpy? And what should it be used for?

Why should the universe expand into anything?

When you expand a balloon, the balloon expands into the space around it. When the universe expands there is no space around it to expand into since space is itself a part of the universe. So the universe must be expanding into nothing if it is indeed expanding at all.

Other than difficulty of imagination, what is a problem with exanding into nothing?

Why black holes 'evaporate'? Why couldn't they reach thermal equilibrium with the rest of the universe?

Black holes have a relatively low level of entropy, so they will evaporate to a higher level of entropy over time.

What is level of entropy? If a black hole emits radiation it it can't be considered as a closed system. This means that who cares about the entropy of an isolated black hole? Also, the power coming out of a black hole is so small, that it is not hard to see how the black hole can come to equilibrium with the universe.