Are Christians "willfully ignorant"?

[Lotan]

"Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord." 1 Co. 15:58

Is there any difference between the Christian doctrine of "steadfastness" and "willfull ignorance"?

[Cephus]

I don't think there's any question that Christians, and in fact all theists, are ignorant in the sense that they don't know the facts, but ignorance is curable.
What I do not think, however, is that it's willfull. They'd have to be aware of their ignorance in that case and choosing to remain so. I can't imagine that most Christians really think there is no God but believe anyhow.

Instead, I think that most Christians are being decieved, both by their own religious beliefs and wishful thinking, and by the religion that indoctrinates them into "believe but don't question" thinking patterns. Most of them simply cannot conceive of the possibility that they are wrong or that what they've been spoon-fed could be the slightest bit in error. Their entire lives and personal identifications have been built around the belief that somewhere out there is a deity that's going to swoop in and save the day. Every thought and action they take is based on that faulty belief and to reject it, or even question it, subducts their entire personalty, thought and belief structure.

They do it because it feels good, they keep believing because they don't know any better and I think subconsciously, at some level, they insist they can't be wrong because they are terrified that maybe, just maybe, they are and the whole house of cards is poised to come tumbling down.

[melikio]

I don't think there's any question that Christians, and in fact all theists, are ignorant in the sense that they don't know the facts, but ignorance is curable.

True, it is curable; but with human beings there is no guarantee that the "cure" is acceptable (despite the ailment).

What I do not think, however, is that it's willfull.

I wouldn't assume that, not with too much conviction. There are MANY who intend to "know", but either do not find the correct answers or proper motivation to pursue the knowledge.

There are many who start off seeking, but in the end... settle for that which they either know or understand best. That's human, and unless we become something completely different, it will always be a factor in defining what is important or real.

They'd have to be aware of their ignorance in that case and choosing to remain so. I can't imagine that most Christians really think there is no God but believe anyhow.

Many Christians are logical enough to realize there is no tangible proof (which they can personally gather and submit to others). On the other hand, they experience things which science either has zero or poor explanantions for. And we cannot blame people (myself included) for wanting a "better" answer; one which the individual can accept and relate to.

We all have heard exclamation admonishing what "God" or "science" has said "X". And it is worth noting that many question BOTH with equal fervency. (Religion has not always been good and right, neither has science.)

Instead, I think that most Christians are being decieved, both by their own religious beliefs and wishful thinking, and by the religion that indoctrinates them into "believe but don't question" thinking patterns.

In some cases that may be true. But we have to be reasonable, and understand that even some of the most brilliant scientific minds of this age, are possessed by people of "faith". I see scientific explanations of reality as merely ONE common place for knowledge, ideas and values to be referenced (not as THE ONLY reference). Religion does address some things which science is woefully inadequate to address; people need more than pure knowledge.

Most of them simply cannot conceive of the possibility that they are wrong or that what they've been spoon-fed could be the slightest bit in error. Their entire lives and personal identifications have been built around the belief that somewhere out there is a deity that's going to swoop in and save the day.

I've had absolutely delightful discussions with people who were raised as atheists, who for some reason/s saw fit to examine/explore religion (Christianity). I used to be amazed by it, now I somewhat assured by that phenomenon. That is, I KNOW there are people like myself, who despite being raised with a particular view, eventually saw their minds expanded to a more well-rounded view of reality. Without a doubt: The most reasonable and balanced people I've met, are those who migrated to the "middle" of most arguments, discussions or mindsets. To me, it is synonymous with a mental enviroment that is "fertile" soil for learning.

And I think that (openess) is what many fear (rightly so); there are BOTH secular and relgious ideas, which lead to terrible outcomes. And it does little good to try painting one mindset or the other as the "enemy"; by doing hat people usually end up leaning toward extremes and shutting the door to new ideas/knowledge.

Every thought and action they take is based on that faulty belief and to reject it, or even question it, subducts their entire personalty, thought and belief structure.

Basically true, but only some religious people are that way. There are people whose foundation is one of "faith", but are not necessarily apt to shut down ALL other ideas or concepts because of their religion. Really, it's just a matter of from which vantage point they are observing reality itself. And from what I've learned, a few heads are better than one (despite the risks and pitfalls).

They do it because it feels good, they keep believing because they don't know any better and I think subconsciously, at some level, they insist they can't be wrong because they are terrified that maybe, just maybe, they are and the whole house of cards is poised to come tumbling down.

Now, this brings me back to my "smoker" analogy.
I know people where I work, who at one moment are criticizing, being busy-bodies and calling others "lazy" (just because they aren't type "A" personalities); they are usually smart and competent people.

Then the IRONY of it. They are so often the people who are idiotically-insane, without a "smoke-break". Now I ask, HOW SMART IS THAT?! They have all this logic, knowledge and energy going for them, but they SMOKE anyway, knowing it will most likely send them to an early grave; to this day it baffles me that they don't turn that "type A" B.S. upon themselves (thus doing nearly every co-worker a favor). I mean, I don't take "STANDING-breaks" (at least not as OFTEN as the people who take those 5-10 minute smoke/talk breaks). And here is the best part: THEY rarely ever get questioned for that "wasted" time, while if I stood doing nothing for 3 mimutes, 4 times a day... I'd be questioned directly.

So, what I'm saying with all of that, is that people need more than pure knowledge or logic to have the best/optimal view of reality. People (individuals) do different things with the chunks of reality they possess in their minds; and some do better (are more practical) with their intellectual acumen than others. Those who are "marginal" (in some way/s) will always be with us; in fact, there are times when any of us are just common folk, seeking the best way/s to get through this life.

-Mel-

[Cephus]

True, it is curable; but with human beings there is no guarantee that the "cure" is acceptable (despite the ailment).

The same can be said for all diseases. If you don't treat the illness, you're not going to get cured and unfortunately, most theists adamantly refuse the treatment.

I wouldn't assume that, not with too much conviction. There are MANY who intend to "know", but either do not find the correct answers or proper motivation to pursue the knowledge.

Like you said, that's simply being human. Far too many people get lost along the way with quick and easy answers and claims that appeal to their personal comfort. That's why religion survives, it works for people on an emotional level, even though it's totally irrational.

Many Christians are logical enough to realize there is no tangible proof (which they can personally gather and submit to others). On the other hand, they experience things which science either has zero or poor explanantions for. And we cannot blame people (myself included) for wanting a "better" answer; one which the individual can accept and relate to.

But there's a difference between knowing there's no tangible proof and knowing that the object of their worship is false, yet believing anyhow. In the end, as I said before, a lot of these people are looking for personal comfort, not demonstrable fact. If it makes them feel good about themselves, they have no problem believing things that are not true because truth, for most people, just isn't all that important when it comes right down to it.

In some cases that may be true. But we have to be reasonable, and understand that even some of the most brilliant scientific minds of this age, are possessed by people of "faith". I see scientific explanations of reality as merely ONE common place for knowledge, ideas and values to be referenced (not as THE ONLY reference). Religion does address some things which science is woefully inadequate to address; people need more than pure knowledge.

But people should not throw away knowledge because it disagrees with their religious convictions. In just about every case where a religious individual has made advances in the field of science, it's been in spite of those religious convictions, not because of them. They seek out to explain an observation or solve a problem, but more often than not run into problems reconciling their former religious beliefs with their new discoveries.

I've had absolutely delightful discussions with people who were raised as atheists, who for some reason/s saw fit to examine/explore religion (Christianity). I used to be amazed by it, now I somewhat assured by that phenomenon. That is, I KNOW there are people like myself, who despite being raised with a particular view, eventually saw their minds expanded to a more well-rounded view of reality. Without a doubt: The most reasonable and balanced people I've met, are those who migrated to the "middle" of most arguments, discussions or mindsets. To me, it is synonymous with a mental enviroment that is "fertile" soil for learning.

Theism has a certain appeal, it provides comfort for those things that may otherwise be uncomfortable. While I've met plenty of people who became theist, I've yet to meet any who did so from an intellectual standpoint. It's always in response to a tragedy or a personal crisis, never because they researched Christianity and found it to be factually true.

Basically true, but only some religious people are that way. There are people whose foundation is one of "faith", but are not necessarily apt to shut down ALL other ideas or concepts because of their religion. Really, it's just a matter of from which vantage point they are observing reality itself. And from what I've learned, a few heads are better than one (despite the risks and pitfalls).

I would say that only the most liberal theologies can survive without that kind of "all or nothing" thinking. It isn't necessarily that they shut down all other ideas, but that they approach all ideas from the position of faith-first-everything-else-second. Their entire worldview is colored by the existence of their faith, all new ideas and concepts are examined from that perspective. They simply are not capable of evaluating an idea without the immediate thought of "how did God do this?"

So, what I'm saying with all of that, is that people need more than pure knowledge or logic to have the best/optimal view of reality. People (individuals) do different things with the chunks of reality they possess in their minds; and some do better (are more practical) with their intellectual acumen than others. Those who are "marginal" (in some way/s) will always be with us; in fact, there are times when any of us are just common folk, seeking the best way/s to get through this life.

But far too many go the other way, with no knowledge and no logic, just pure, blind, unexamined belief. I really don't think that you need blind faith in your life, I follow the maxim that as an unexamined life is not worth living, an unexamined belief is not worth holding. Unfortunately, far too few are really willing to get down to basics and examine their most heartfelt belief systems, testing them to see if they hold up to scrutiny.

The ones I know who are willing to do that, like myself, are usually the ones who give up religion, at least organized religion, because in the end, it's all smoke and mirrors, and smoke and mirrors can only make you feel better about yourself so long as you don't know what they really are.

[Nick Hallandale]

Essentially, Fred is making a circular argument that the Bible is the ultimate authority on everything. But is "God's Holy Bible" really that great? You bet!

"We Christians believe the Bible to be the Word of God and the eternal source of truth we live by. How do we know the Bible is the Word of God? Can we actually prove that the Bible is truly the Word of God? The answer is yes.

So tell me....don't keep me in suspense......I want to know
How ""can we actually prove that the Bible is truly the Word of God?"""

You have my attention.
TELL ME

Nick Hallandale
enterprisestrategy@earthlink.net

[melikio]

But far too many go the other way, with no knowledge and no logic, just pure, blind, unexamined belief.

I'm not sure I agree with this. For while there are those who really don't think any more deeply than the skin of the ideas they are familiar with; I really do believe it has a LOT more to do with the "individual" (what will or will not come from the mindsets they embrace).

Really, I've seen terrible atheists and terrible Christians. That is, many are negative and hurtful people, who strap on anything they can out of desperation, hatred confusion or other negative aspects of humanity. I've noticed that people tend to choose what they will or will not believe; they find both logical and illogical ways to support who/what they are. People are just difficult to explain period.

I really don't think that you need blind faith in your life, I follow the maxim that as an unexamined life is not worth living, an unexamined belief is not worth holding.

I can relate to that, in a VERY fluid way. I don't have "strict" rules for ALL things in my life; and some things I'm NOT going to dig very deeply into; others, I'll dig so deep that I'm the KING of GEEKS. People are into DIFFERENT things, not all the same... it may be troublesome and disturbing, but it is very obvious and clearly something we all must deal with. There are people who love NASCAR and others who enjoy GOLF. Not every religious person will relate the exact same logic, reasons or experiences when asked to explain their faith; it is reasonable and natural for people to approach reality differently. Sure, we all see a certain amount of common ground (if we are basically reasonable, and care about other people), but there is not escaping that we are truly all very unique in certain ways. Walk up to any magazine stand; look at the "variety" of topics covered by the publications, and I think it illustrates well, just how many different things people are DEEPLY into.

Unfortunately, far too few are really willing to get down to basics and examine their most heartfelt belief systems, testing them to see if they hold up to scrutiny.

I sometimes feel as you do; that people are wrapped into their OWN accepted paradigms. And you likely know that it isn't necessarily as simple as what people know, but also how they wield the knowledge they may already possess.

Many scores of people KNOW what is better or good, but for reasons few can predict or explain, choose to say or do just the opposite. And I will also say that LOVE mitigates the negatives and builds "connections" to what causes people to be disconnected from one another. That is, some people won't care to examine how "right" another may be, if their sole or primary GOAL is to oppose or hate those sharing truth with them. Anger and/or hatred can cloud minds period; and knowledge isn't all it takes to overcome the negatives which human beings are capable of exuding or experiencing.

It would be excessive or extreme for one to actually believe/conclude that the majority of "Christians" are not capable of or willing to "think"; and even as a very liberal-Christian, I have to admit that those I disagree with strongly... are NOT necessarily guilty of shallow or particualrly illogical thought (nor are they willfully ignorant). Intransigence may be the actual offense of many on all sides; for some who are more "extreme", being "RIGHT" within their own mind/group, is the primary and most important goal. And that isn't necessarily good for promoting deep and open-minded thought.

-Mel-

[McCulloch]

So tell me....don't keep me in suspense......I want to know
How ""can we actually prove that the Bible is truly the Word of God?"""

You have my attention.
TELL ME

Nick Hallandale
enterprisestrategy@earthlink.net

You will not get an answer now and I did not get an answer when I asked, "Is the Bible the Word of God?"

[Cephus]

Really, I've seen terrible atheists and terrible Christians. That is, many are negative and hurtful people, who strap on anything they can out of desperation, hatred confusion or other negative aspects of humanity. I've noticed that people tend to choose what they will or will not believe; they find both logical and illogical ways to support who/what they are. People are just difficult to explain period.

People really aren't that difficult, at least in general terms. You're right, they will choose what they will or will not believe, but usually that's in terms of personal comfort. Many people will choose a religion, not because it's true, but because it makes them feel good and gives them hope to cling to. Religion is little more than a security blanket that keeps the boogey men under the bed from coming out at night. As such, it's not really a bad thing, it's a convenient lie that makes you feel better and if that helps you, that's fine. It's when you go beyond that and start imposing your beliefs on others through force, intimidation or violence that it stops being a positive thing.

Not every religious person will relate the exact same logic, reasons or experiences when asked to explain their faith; it is reasonable and natural for people to approach reality differently. Sure, we all see a certain amount of common ground (if we are basically reasonable, and care about other people), but there is not escaping that we are truly all very unique in certain ways. Walk up to any magazine stand; look at the "variety" of topics covered by the publications, and I think it illustrates well, just how many different things people are DEEPLY into.

As far as I'm concerned though, shouldn't the belief in an all-encompassing deity be at the top of everyone's list? I mean, if you're trusting this entity with your eternal soul, isn't it important to find out if you've picked the right one? If you're wrong, you're headed straight to hell after you die, according to most Western theologies, but most people never bother to give the factuality of their beliefs more than a passing glance.

That means that either people just don't care, which is sad, or aren't bright enough to consider the ramifications, which is frightening.

I sometimes feel as you do; that people are wrapped into their OWN accepted paradigms. And you likely know that it isn't necessarily as simple as what people know, but also how they wield the knowledge they may already possess.

But they don't wield any knowledge, that's the problem. They've been sold a load of fish oil and because they're terrified to admit that they might be wrong, they sit atop the fish oil cans declaring it to be caviar.

It would be excessive or extreme for one to actually believe/conclude that the majority of "Christians" are not capable of or willing to "think"; and even as a very liberal-Christian, I have to admit that those I disagree with strongly... are NOT necessarily guilty of shallow or particualrly illogical thought (nor are they willfully ignorant). Intransigence may be the actual offense of many on all sides; for some who are more "extreme", being "RIGHT" within their own mind/group, is the primary and most important goal. And that isn't necessarily good for promoting deep and open-minded thought.

But, in fact, they are incapable of thought, at least at a critical level regarding their own beliefs. This incapacity increases as one becomes more "fundamentalist" in one's belief. When the demand that you're *RIGHT* becomes a matter of how strongly you believe something, then man is no better or more rational than the apes we evolved from.

Even from a Christian perspective, God supposedly gave us minds, why are so many Christians terrified to actually use them?

[melikio]

Really, I've seen terrible atheists and terrible Christians. That is, many are negative and hurtful people, who strap on anything they can out of desperation, hatred confusion or other negative aspects of humanity. I've noticed that people tend to choose what they will or will not believe; they find both logical and illogical ways to support who/what they are. People are just difficult to explain period.

People really aren't that difficult, at least in general terms. You're right, they will choose what they will or will not believe, but usually that's in terms of personal comfort. Many people will choose a religion, not because it's true, but because it makes them feel good and gives them hope to cling to. Religion is little more than a security blanket that keeps the boogey men under the bed from coming out at night. As such, it's not really a bad thing, it's a convenient lie that makes you feel better and if that helps you, that's fine. It's when you go beyond that and start imposing your beliefs on others through force, intimidation or violence that it stops being a positive thing.

I still disagree, people are quite difficult at times, and it can often be a direct result of how "diverse" we actually are (or the perceptions of that same diversity).

Religion for many people, is not just some security blanket. Now, I can't stop anyone from seeing it that way, but it is about far more than that to me. It wouldn't bee a far-stretch to say that view you have of it, is clearly one reason that you are an atheist. I have no problem with that, but I must relate that not all people view or use religion in the manner you imply. And even if they do, it has to be understood that some people DO need whatever "security blanket" they can find; they would NOT be anywhere near whole, without it. Perhaps non-religion or lack of faith suits certain people, but certainly not all. My only requirement in the whole scheme of things, is that people consider the value or importance of respecting the beliefs (unbeliefs) of others, a spreading good will where possible.

Not every religious person will relate the exact same logic, reasons or experiences when asked to explain their faith; it is reasonable and natural for people to approach reality differently. Sure, we all see a certain amount of common ground (if we are basically reasonable, and care about other people), but there is not escaping that we are truly all very unique in certain ways. Walk up to any magazine stand; look at the "variety" of topics covered by the publications, and I think it illustrates well, just how many different things people are DEEPLY into.

As far as I'm concerned though, shouldn't the belief in an all-encompassing deity be at the top of everyone's list? I mean, if you're trusting this entity with your eternal soul, isn't it important to find out if you've picked the right one? If you're wrong, you're headed straight to hell after you die, according to most Western theologies, but most people never bother to give the factuality of their beliefs more than a passing glance.

Cephus, I don't doubt that you (and nearly everyone else) has a unique view of religion's WORTH or importance. I'm used to people NOT viewing it in similar or necessarily positive ways. All I'm really emphasizing, is that you likely do yourself and others a great disservice, by over-generalizing or dumping ALL religion into the same hopper. Life is no more about "atheism" alone, than it is about "religion" or "Christianity" alone. It may be more logical or present less cognitive dissonance to compartmentalize and separate faith from other things, but that is NOT how all people approach life; and it is more than logical to understand that that will not change in human beings. Unless we evolve a lot more per lifetime than we already do... the ways people view these things will be "diverse".

That means that either people just don't care, which is sad, or aren't bright enough to consider the ramifications, which is frightening.

I stopped pitying atheists years ago; nor do I relegate them to condemnation. I realize that they either cannot, do not or will not believe as I do; I stopped expecting or demanding they "explain" themselves.

After I went through a MASSIVE shift in my faith and overall worldview, I learned to respect how and why people embrace the mindsets they do. I wasn't far from being agnositc or atheist myself. But I never found a perfect reason to dismiss faith and/or unbelief completely.

I sometimes feel as you do; that people are wrapped into their OWN accepted paradigms. And you likely know that it isn't necessarily as simple as what people know, but also how they wield the knowledge they may already possess.

But they don't wield any knowledge, that's the problem. They've been sold a load of fish oil and because they're terrified to admit that they might be wrong, they sit atop the fish oil cans declaring it to be caviar.

There is something overly-general or arrogant about what you are saying here. You cannot say that atheists are necessarily smarter or more educated than people of faith; that simply isn't the truth. And I suppose that we can feel we are smarter (better or better off) than others, if we believe that we are "right" and they are not. Not all people of faith are gullible, uneducated idiots. You can believe that if that suits your view, but it isn't actually the case.

It would be excessive or extreme for one to actually believe/conclude that the majority of "Christians" are not capable of or willing to "think"; and even as a very liberal-Christian, I have to admit that those I disagree with strongly... are NOT necessarily guilty of shallow or particualrly illogical thought (nor are they willfully ignorant). Intransigence may be the actual offense of many on all sides; for some who are more "extreme", being "RIGHT" within their own mind/group, is the primary and most important goal. And that isn't necessarily good for promoting deep and open-minded thought.

But, in fact, they are incapable of thought, at least at a critical level regarding their own beliefs. This incapacity increases as one becomes more "fundamentalist" in one's belief. When the demand that you're *RIGHT* becomes a matter of how strongly you believe something, then man is no better or more rational than the apes we evolved from.

Even from a Christian perspective, God supposedly gave us minds, why are so many Christians terrified to actually use them?

For some reason (and honestly I can't fathom why), you underestimate the various positions and ranges of views people hold in this reality. You cannot expect all people to be at YOUR level (and they won't be). And I can relate to or sympathize with you where it concerns things we view as "wrong" in this existence. But there is a limit to what any one of us can control or change about these things.

This website alone, illustrates exactly what I'm pointing out; if there were no differences, most threads would likely end with everyone agreeing and be less than two pages long. To me, extremism isn't simply about the beliefs/thoughts one may hold, but also about how far one is willing to go in convincing OTHERS to adopt the same views which they themselves hold.

People typically KNOW a lot; but what they do with that "knowledge" varies in quality or usefulness, and it is most often based upon the individual wielding it. I mean, it would be great if we could all be on the same page about everything, seeing all things in exactly the SAME ways... but I don't think how that could ever be (at least, not in this reality).

-Mel-

[Nick Hallandale]

So tell me....don't keep me in suspense......I want to know
How ""can we actually prove that the Bible is truly the Word of God?"""

You have my attention.
TELL ME

Nick Hallandale
enterprisestrategy@earthlink.net

You will not get an answer now and I did not get an answer when I asked, "Is the Bible the Word of God?"

Do you think that maybe the Christians CANNOT prove that the Bible is truly the word of God?

If you Christians are out there reading this .....now is the time to put up or shut up.

[Cephus]

I still disagree, people are quite difficult at times, and it can often be a direct result of how "diverse" we actually are (or the perceptions of that same diversity).

I think that humans sometimes see unnecessary complexity where none need exist sometimes.

Religion for many people, is not just some security blanket. Now, I can't stop anyone from seeing it that way, but it is about far more than that to me. It wouldn't bee a far-stretch to say that view you have of it, is clearly one reason that you are an atheist. I have no problem with that, but I must relate that not all people view or use religion in the manner you imply. And even if they do, it has to be understood that some people DO need whatever "security blanket" they can find; they would NOT be anywhere near whole, without it. Perhaps non-religion or lack of faith suits certain people, but certainly not all. My only requirement in the whole scheme of things, is that people consider the value or importance of respecting the beliefs (unbeliefs) of others, a spreading good will where possible.

But in the end, you just showed that religion *IS* a security blanket. Heck, when I was a Christian, it was a security blanket for me, I just didn't recognize it as such at the time. You point out that people need to feel special, they need to think someone is watching out for them and their lives have meaning, etc. What better example of a security blanket can there be?

And while I agree that there is importance in respecting the beliefs of others, that's not normally a problem for atheists, but it does seem to be a major issue for a large percentage of Christians, who see atheists as "the enemy" and can't get past that point.

Cephus, I don't doubt that you (and nearly everyone else) has a unique view of religion's WORTH or importance. I'm used to people NOT viewing it in similar or necessarily positive ways. All I'm really emphasizing, is that you likely do yourself and others a great disservice, by over-generalizing or dumping ALL religion into the same hopper. Life is no more about "atheism" alone, than it is about "religion" or "Christianity" alone. It may be more logical or present less cognitive dissonance to compartmentalize and separate faith from other things, but that is NOT how all people approach life; and it is more than logical to understand that that will not change in human beings. Unless we evolve a lot more per lifetime than we already do... the ways people view these things will be "diverse".

I'm not dumping anything into any hopper, I'm pointing out that, given the claims of Christianity, shouldn't your average Christian put a lot more emphasis on verifying the validity of their beliefs than they do? It seems like most take the underlying claims for granted and get fanatical about the details, which seems utterly bizarre to me. Diversity is fine, but we're talking basic logic and the views most people have about religion, regardless of their specific leanings, is anything but logical.

I stopped pitying atheists years ago; nor do I relegate them to condemnation. I realize that they either cannot, do not or will not believe as I do; I stopped expecting or demanding they "explain" themselves.

That's good, atheists don't need any pity. If Christians turn out to be right and we all go to hell, I doubt any atheists will do more than spit in the eye of the deity who sends them there. After all, he supposedly gave us a brain, any deity that punishes us for using it is a sick, sadistic bastard, utterly unworthy of anything but disdain.

You are right, however, that atheists are not going to believe as you do because there is no logical, rational reason to believe as you do. Theism, in general, is a wholly irrational belief system, based on wishful thinking and fear. We no more believe in an unseen deity than we believe in Santa Claus or monsters under the bed, nor should we.

There is something overly-general or arrogant about what you are saying here. You cannot say that atheists are necessarily smarter or more educated than people of faith; that simply isn't the truth. And I suppose that we can feel we are smarter (better or better off) than others, if we believe that we are "right" and they are not. Not all people of faith are gullible, uneducated idiots. You can believe that if that suits your view, but it isn't actually the case.

Not really. Certainly, there are intelligent Christians and stupid atheists, but if you want to go with the studies, they have shown that atheists tend to be more intelligent, do better in school, etc. There is an inverse correlation between intelligence and religiousity. As intelligence increases, religious belief wanes. That's not going to hold true for everyone, but there are dozens of studies that have been done over the years to support the conclusion.

Really, as you learn more, you figure out that you don't need a deity, that a deity makes no sense and has no evidence to support it. Without some underlying emotional anchor to religion, most people drop it.

For some reason (and honestly I can't fathom why), you underestimate the various positions and ranges of views people hold in this reality. You cannot expect all people to be at YOUR level (and they won't be). And I can relate to or sympathize with you where it concerns things we view as "wrong" in this existence. But there is a limit to what any one of us can control or change about these things.

No, I don't. You have to remember that the vast majority of so-called "Christians" in the United States are, what I term "social Christians". They claim to believe because they think it makes them look good to the neighbors. Most never step foot in a church or have any clue what the Bible says. They're Christian because that's what they think they're supposed to be, not because they understand the religion or their reasons for "believing". Those people aren't worth debating because those people are simply incapable of it. But those aren't the people who would come to a forum like this and I do expect something better from forum participants here than "it's true because the Bible says so" or somesuch nonsense.

People typically KNOW a lot; but what they do with that "knowledge" varies in quality or usefulness, and it is most often based upon the individual wielding it. I mean, it would be great if we could all be on the same page about everything, seeing all things in exactly the SAME ways... but I don't think how that could ever be (at least, not in this reality).

I really don't think most people really know much and that goes for theists and atheist alike. Human beings, in general, are a pretty stupid lot, just going through life doing the motions without having any idea why. There are very few people who ever stop to ask themselves why they believe what they believe or think what they think and even fewer who can explain rationally and intelligently why they hold their views. I'd like to think that those few of the few are the ones who would come to a forum such as this, we represent the intellectual "cream of the crop" in some ways, just because we're not the mindless sheep that do what we're told and believe, not question.