Did God Create Sin?

[ViperaRex]

Okay, Christians will usually say, "no, God did not create sin, it was Adam & Eve/ the Serpent, who created sin. They say; "God created the conditions through which sin might be born, but he himself did not create sin". This argument might make sense if God couldn't see the future, but according to the bible, he can, rendering this argument absolutely ridiculous, let me give you an analogy:

I Am a scientist,one day I become bored, I decide to create an experiment for my amusement, however, I know that conducting this particular experiment will release a toxic gas that will spread and kill everything within a 5 mile radius, This isn't the main point of the experiment, but it is a byproduct I know will occur. I strap on a gas mask, shrug, and do it anyway. Sure enough, the gas is released, and thousands of of people die. Surely I would be blamed for it, as I knew it would happen but did it anyway, would you defend me and say; "Hey, he didn't create the gas, he simply created the conditions in which that gas might be created, but he didn't make it". Of course you wouldn't, that makes no sense.

God didn't say, "Let there be sin", but he created it by creating the right conditions and allowing it to happen.

And thus, how can he be angry at us for sinning, when it is not really our fault that we sin, if he had not created the conditions for sin, it would not exist.

So, my question is, did God create sin?, if you believe "no", please justify it in light of all this

[Rkrause]

[Replying to post 17 by Rkrause]

God didn't create sin. Sin is imperfection of Gods perfection so by Gods very nature sin wasn't created by Him.

So god didn't create humans because by their imperfect nature they could not have been created by a perfect god.
You win the cupie doll.

So if you take apart a new car that worked perfectly and you put it back imperfectly that means the car manufacturer never created the car. I think you might want the cupie doll back?

[Student]

Clearly in Monotheism, an Omnipotent, Omniscient God is ultimately responsible for everything. This God creates the pre-conditions for sinning as well as the capacity to commit sin. The very concept of sin, what is and isnt sin is determined by this God.

God creates the tree, and places it slap bang in the middle of the garden of Eden. He then draws attention to the tree by telling the man, who at the time is innocent of the knowledge of what is good and what is evil: 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God subsequently creates woman; there is no evidence regarding who tells her of the prohibition regarding the tree but clearly she is aware of a different version from that which God told the man. i.e. 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Notice here the additional prohibition and threat, that even touching the fruit will cause death.

The woman, who also at the time is innocent of the knowledge of what is good and what is evil, is tempted, by of all things, a talking serpent, a creature more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.

The woman succumbs to the suggestion of Gods agent provocateur, and upon finding that touching the fruit doesnt cause death proceeds to eat it, giving some to the man, who also eats.

So, who is responsible for the Man & the Woman sinning?

If God didnt want Man and Woman to succumb to temptation why did He:
a. create the tree in the first place?
b. plant it in the middle of the garden?
c. place the Man and Woman in close proximity to the tree?
d. make sure the Man and Woman were aware of the trees existence and exact location?
e. lie about the consequences of touching/eating the fruit?
f. create the agent of temptation?
g. equip this agent with the necessary facilities and faculties to succeed in his task?
h. allow this agent of temptation free and easy access to the garden knowing that the victims were innocent of the knowledge of good and evil; more so knowing they had been created as they were, so that they would fail the test?

Clearly the omnipotent, omniscient God created the source of temptation, as well ensuring that all the right conditions were in place for the woman and man to succumb to temptation.

Under UK law any case against the Man and Woman would be dismissed on the grounds of entrapment and abuse of process.

Culpability for original sin and its consequences i.e. death would be attributed to the author of the trap.

[southern cross]

[Replying to post 17 by Rkrause]

God didn't create sin. Sin is imperfection of Gods perfection so by Gods very nature sin wasn't created by Him.

So god didn't create humans because by their imperfect nature they could not have been created by a perfect god.
You win the cupie doll.

So if you take apart a new car that worked perfectly and you put it back imperfectly that means the car manufacturer never created the car. I think you might want the cupie doll back?

So god's car factory, as pictured by ciko, didn't create the car it just took the car apart and put it back together? Keep the the cupie......you deserve it. We give them out when you miss every target in three or more goes. Really the cost of the cupie is well worth the laughter we get.
ciko's factory is getting a lot of publicity, I must say.

[Rkrause]

[Replying to post 17 by Rkrause]

God didn't create sin. Sin is imperfection of Gods perfection so by Gods very nature sin wasn't created by Him.

So god didn't create humans because by their imperfect nature they could not have been created by a perfect god.
You win the cupie doll.

So if you take apart a new car that worked perfectly and you put it back imperfectly that means the car manufacturer never created the car. I think you might want the cupie doll back?

So god's car factory, as pictured by ciko, didn't create the car it just took the car apart and put it back together? Keep the the cupie......you deserve it. We give them out when you miss every target in three or more goes. Really the cost of the cupie is well worth the laughter we get.
ciko's factory is getting a lot of publicity, I must say.

A little cranky today SC?

I really get sick and tired of people blaming God for our actions. We are responsible for our own actions. Even worse is when an atheist blames God for anything yet not not blame mankind.

[southern cross]

[Replying to post 17 by Rkrause]

God didn't create sin. Sin is imperfection of Gods perfection so by Gods very nature sin wasn't created by Him.

So god didn't create humans because by their imperfect nature they could not have been created by a perfect god.
You win the cupie doll.

So if you take apart a new car that worked perfectly and you put it back imperfectly that means the car manufacturer never created the car. I think you might want the cupie doll back?

So god's car factory, as pictured by ciko, didn't create the car it just took the car apart and put it back together? Keep the the cupie......you deserve it. We give them out when you miss every target in three or more goes. Really the cost of the cupie is well worth the laughter we get.
ciko's factory is getting a lot of publicity, I must say.

A little cranky today SC?

I really get sick and tired of people blaming God for our actions. We are responsible for our own actions. Even worse is when an atheist blames God for anything yet not not blame mankind.

Not cranky at all mate. I'm merely pointing out the errors in what you believe and what you claim to believe and what you claim the bible says you should believe.
Atheists don't blame god for anything. OK?
As an atheist, if I am debating with you regarding your god, what am I supposed to use as a reference to his behaviour if not the book you use for that purpose?
If I use "war and peace" as my reference to your arguments from the bible, would that make any sense to either of us?
I get really sick of theists claiming that we believe in their delusions simply because we use their delusions to refute their delusions.

[Rkrause]

[Replying to post 17 by Rkrause]

God didn't create sin. Sin is imperfection of Gods perfection so by Gods very nature sin wasn't created by Him.

So god didn't create humans because by their imperfect nature they could not have been created by a perfect god.
You win the cupie doll.

So if you take apart a new car that worked perfectly and you put it back imperfectly that means the car manufacturer never created the car. I think you might want the cupie doll back?

So god's car factory, as pictured by ciko, didn't create the car it just took the car apart and put it back together? Keep the the cupie......you deserve it. We give them out when you miss every target in three or more goes. Really the cost of the cupie is well worth the laughter we get.
ciko's factory is getting a lot of publicity, I must say.

A little cranky today SC?

I really get sick and tired of people blaming God for our actions. We are responsible for our own actions. Even worse is when an atheist blames God for anything yet not not blame mankind.

Not cranky at all mate. I'm merely pointing out the errors in what you believe and what you claim to believe and what you claim the bible says you should believe.
Atheists don't blame god for anything. OK?
As an atheist, if I am debating with you regarding your god, what am I supposed to use as a reference to his behaviour if not the book you use for that purpose?
If I use "war and peace" as my reference to your arguments from the bible, would that make any sense to either of us?
I get really sick of theists claiming that we believe in their delusions simply because we use their delusions to refute their delusions.

So what was wrong with my car manufacturing analogy and who caused the imperfection? (all analogies break down so this should be easy). Who's fault was it that caused the imperfections? The car manufacturer or the owner who took it apart and put it back togather incorrectly?

[southern cross]

[Replying to post 17 by Rkrause]

God didn't create sin. Sin is imperfection of Gods perfection so by Gods very nature sin wasn't created by Him.

So god didn't create humans because by their imperfect nature they could not have been created by a perfect god.
You win the cupie doll.

So if you take apart a new car that worked perfectly and you put it back imperfectly that means the car manufacturer never created the car. I think you might want the cupie doll back?

So god's car factory, as pictured by ciko, didn't create the car it just took the car apart and put it back together? Keep the the cupie......you deserve it. We give them out when you miss every target in three or more goes. Really the cost of the cupie is well worth the laughter we get.
ciko's factory is getting a lot of publicity, I must say.

A little cranky today SC?

I really get sick and tired of people blaming God for our actions. We are responsible for our own actions. Even worse is when an atheist blames God for anything yet not not blame mankind.

Not cranky at all mate. I'm merely pointing out the errors in what you believe and what you claim to believe and what you claim the bible says you should believe.
Atheists don't blame god for anything. OK?
As an atheist, if I am debating with you regarding your god, what am I supposed to use as a reference to his behaviour if not the book you use for that purpose?
If I use "war and peace" as my reference to your arguments from the bible, would that make any sense to either of us?
I get really sick of theists claiming that we believe in their delusions simply because we use their delusions to refute their delusions.

So what was wrong with my car manufacturing analogy and who caused the imperfection? (all analogies break down so this should be easy). Who's fault was it that caused the imperfections? The car manufacturer or the owner who took it apart and put it back togather incorrectly?

Oh now I see.
You claim that Adam or maybe Eve dissambled mankind and rebuilt him with those leftover bits that always seem to happen? Yes?
Someone/thing rebuilt the car that god made?
I am amused by the theistic analogies. But nevermind that.

[Truely Free]

[Replying to post 1 by ViperaRex]

Hey, great question. One I had myself for a long time.
Correct Biblical teaching is that sin is a neutral (not morally), while righteousness is the presence of God. Sin, evil exc are the absence of God. Words used to describe the nature of it are "death" for sin and "life" for righteousness. Death is the absence of life. Or "dark" for sin and "light" for righteousness. Darkness is the absence of light. Other words, things like "empty" and "full", "hungry" and righteous acts and laws described as food. exc.
It would also explain works has very little to do with righteousness. Sinful acts come out of a heart without God, while hearts that fill themselves with his presence naturally act out righteousness.
In the garden of Eden we separated ourselves from God. Our Natural state apart from God is sin, sorrow, pain, and evil. The only reason we have the ability to even look at ourselves and realize there is something that has gone wrong with the world is because God created us for Himself, for something better.
C.S. Lewis describes it as a fish out of water. When the fish is in water, it doesn't realize there is anything special there, it's in its natural element. However, it's dreadfully aware of it's absence. C.S. Lewis, once an atheist, testified that the realization that he wouldn't long for something better and find pain so unnatural if he wasn't made for something more (God and Heaven). If I fish was made to live in the absence of water, it wouldn't notice it when the water was taken away.
Thus God is glorified even in the "problem" of Pain.

(1 John 1:5, Deuteronomy 30:19, Psalm 19:10, Matthew 5:6, The entire book of Ecclesiastes, which is written from a secular viewpoint to explain life without God)

[southern cross]

[Replying to post 1 by ViperaRex]

Hey, great question. One I had myself for a long time.
Correct Biblical teaching is that sin is a neutral (not morally), while righteousness is the presence of God. Sin, evil exc are the absence of God. Words used to describe the nature of it are "death" for sin and "life" for righteousness. Death is the absence of life. Or "dark" for sin and "light" for righteousness. Darkness is the absence of light. Other words, things like "empty" and "full", "hungry" and righteous acts and laws described as food. exc.
It would also explain works has very little to do with righteousness. Sinful acts come out of a heart without God, while hearts that fill themselves with his presence naturally act out righteousness.
In the garden of Eden we separated ourselves from God. Our Natural state apart from God is sin, sorrow, pain, and evil. The only reason we have the ability to even look at ourselves and realize there is something that has gone wrong with the world is because God created us for Himself, for something better.
C.S. Lewis describes it as a fish out of water. When the fish is in water, it doesn't realize there is anything special there, it's in its natural element. However, it's dreadfully aware of it's absence. C.S. Lewis, once an atheist, testified that the realization that he wouldn't long for something better and find pain so unnatural if he wasn't made for something more (God and Heaven). If I fish was made to live in the absence of water, it wouldn't notice it when the water was taken away.
Thus God is glorified even in the "problem" of Pain.

(1 John 1:5, Deuteronomy 30:19, Psalm 19:10, Matthew 5:6, The entire book of Ecclesiastes, which is written from a secular viewpoint to explain life without God)

Here's the $64 question.
Should we tear out our hearts for telling us the wrong/right things?

[Rkrause]

[Replying to post 17 by Rkrause]

God didn't create sin. Sin is imperfection of Gods perfection so by Gods very nature sin wasn't created by Him.

So god didn't create humans because by their imperfect nature they could not have been created by a perfect god.
You win the cupie doll.

So if you take apart a new car that worked perfectly and you put it back imperfectly that means the car manufacturer never created the car. I think you might want the cupie doll back?

So god's car factory, as pictured by ciko, didn't create the car it just took the car apart and put it back together? Keep the the cupie......you deserve it. We give them out when you miss every target in three or more goes. Really the cost of the cupie is well worth the laughter we get.
ciko's factory is getting a lot of publicity, I must say.

A little cranky today SC?

I really get sick and tired of people blaming God for our actions. We are responsible for our own actions. Even worse is when an atheist blames God for anything yet not not blame mankind.

Not cranky at all mate. I'm merely pointing out the errors in what you believe and what you claim to believe and what you claim the bible says you should believe.
Atheists don't blame god for anything. OK?
As an atheist, if I am debating with you regarding your god, what am I supposed to use as a reference to his behaviour if not the book you use for that purpose?
If I use "war and peace" as my reference to your arguments from the bible, would that make any sense to either of us?
I get really sick of theists claiming that we believe in their delusions simply because we use their delusions to refute their delusions.

So what was wrong with my car manufacturing analogy and who caused the imperfection? (all analogies break down so this should be easy). Who's fault was it that caused the imperfections? The car manufacturer or the owner who took it apart and put it back togather incorrectly?

Oh now I see.
You claim that Adam or maybe Eve dissambled mankind and rebuilt him with those leftover bits that always seem to happen? Yes?
Someone/thing rebuilt the car that god made?
I am amused by the theistic analogies. But nevermind that.

No, what I am saying is mankind allowed imperfection (sin) come into a perfect creation. That imperfection isn't Gods fault but mankinds. God didn't create imperfection only allowed it so we could grow as beings.