Okay, Christians will usually say, "no, God did not create sin, it was Adam & Eve/ the Serpent, who created sin. They say; "God created the conditions through which sin might be born, but he himself did not create sin". This argument might make sense if God couldn't see the future, but according to the bible, he can, rendering this argument absolutely ridiculous, let me give you an analogy:
I Am a scientist,one day I become bored, I decide to create an experiment for my amusement, however, I know that conducting this particular experiment will release a toxic gas that will spread and kill everything within a 5 mile radius, This isn't the main point of the experiment, but it is a byproduct I know will occur. I strap on a gas mask, shrug, and do it anyway. Sure enough, the gas is released, and thousands of of people die. Surely I would be blamed for it, as I knew it would happen but did it anyway, would you defend me and say; "Hey, he didn't create the gas, he simply created the conditions in which that gas might be created, but he didn't make it". Of course you wouldn't, that makes no sense.
God didn't say, "Let there be sin", but he created it by creating the right conditions and allowing it to happen.
And thus, how can he be angry at us for sinning, when it is not really our fault that we sin, if he had not created the conditions for sin, it would not exist.
So, my question is, did God create sin?, if you believe "no", please justify it in light of all this
Did God Create Sin?
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Re: Did God Create Sin?
Post #41Concerning your free will argument (first time I really disagree with you). If I understand correctly you don't believe God knows the future actions of humans because if He did we wouldn't have true free will?dianaiad wrote:Begging the question. God does NOT know with 100% certainty that we will sin, or to what extent, or who will commit what sin. He can't...not and have free will any part of the equation. If we cannot make the choice, then it's not free will. If He knows what each individual choice will be, it's not free will.ViperaRex wrote:God did not "Take a chance", God CANNOT take a chance because God knows everything, God knew with absolute 100% certainty that we would sin. What do you mean "any mistakes he had made"?, are implying God has sinned?Tex wrote:ViperaRex wrote: Okay, Christians will usually say, "no, God did not create sin, it was Adam & Eve/ the Serpent, who created sin. They say; "God created the conditions through which sin might be born, but he himself did not create sin". This argument might make sense if God couldn't see the future, but according to the bible, he can, rendering this argument absolutely ridiculous, let me give you an analogy:
I Am a scientist,one day I become bored, I decide to create an experiment for my amusement, however, I know that conducting this particular experiment will release a toxic gas that will spread and kill everything within a 5 mile radius, This isn't the main point of the experiment, but it is a byproduct I know will occur. I strap on a gas mask, shrug, and do it anyway. Sure enough, the gas is released, and thousands of of people die. Surely I would be blamed for it, as I knew it would happen but did it anyway, would you defend me and say; "Hey, he didn't create the gas, he simply created the conditions in which that gas might be created, but he didn't make it". Of course you wouldn't, that makes no sense.
God didn't say, "Let there be sin", but he created it by creating the right conditions and allowing it to happen.
And thus, how can he be angry at us for sinning, when it is not really our fault that we sin, if he had not created the conditions for sin, it would not exist.
So, my question is, did God create sin?, if you believe "no", please justify it in light of all this
If you want to look at it that way....Yes,in a way, by creating us God took a chance that we may sin. Odds being that we would sin.
But I'm sure God would of hoped that we didn't fail. Just like any Father doesn't want his children to make mistake that maybe he had made.
But He is omniscient...He can know everything. He's also omnipotent...He can do anything.
This does not mean that He MUST know everything and that He MUST do everything; that concept is indeed self contradictory. If God has given us the freedom to choose our actions (free will) then PART of that 'gift' would be...He not know what that choice will be. He may know that someone will choose to do thus and so...but not which one of us.
....and if being omnipotent means that He can't choose NOT to do something, it's not omnipotence, is it?
God did not 'create sin.' He gave us choice. OUR choices, when they are done for self serving reasons that cause harm to ourselves and others, are sinful. "Sin" isn't a 'thing.' It's an attitude; a category; a judgment call. Very few actions are sinful in and of themselves. The reasons behind those actions are what makes them sin...or not.
I believe it is perspective. God knows what we will do but in our perspective we always have free will to do whatever we want. God doesn't control our free will (in most cases) and His foreknowledge of what we will do doesn't change our free will options (in our perspective).
Your thoughts?
Post #42
I don't believe in the Devil.McCulloch wrote:If you believe that there really is a Devil, who created the Devil? Who allows the Devil to continue to operate in the universe? If the Devil could spread so much evil and sin, why would a good God, a powerful God and a wise God, allow him free rein?antonenus wrote: Sounds like the devil gets named as the source of all sin. Which makes sense as he is the opposer of God.
This negligence however doesn't mean God created sin, just allowed it. That is why I said I think he would be responsible for it in a previous post, but not technically the creator.
Post #43
Yes, I know.McCulloch wrote:
When you read mythology literally, you end up with absurdities. Do you think that Satan is really that utterly foolish and stupid? No one with a lick of sense would oppose the will of an all-powerful creator of the universe. Open rebellion of Satan and the demons against God himself! Preposterous!
[strike]There are members on here like ttruscott who believe in pre conception theology*Not sure if that's the right name or if these are the correct details, but I think they would say Satan chose (with free will) to rebel before he knew who God actually was, as rebelling against the all powerful God is ridiculous and it would not be free will if he had fully known who God was.
I think this is just assertion to try and make sense of a story which doesn't make sense, but that's just my opinion. If Ted sees this he might be able to clear it up.[/strike]
Just saw Ted's post.
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Post #45
From the OP:
That said, I don't care what a god thinks about sin. I live my life according to my principles, not those principles of a god that just can't find it in himself to tell me what he expects. As relates to Christian accounts of a god's opinion, I see nothing there that leads me to the conclusion that Christians turn out superior in regards to 'sin', than any random collection of human beings one might assemble.
Conclusion?
Tales of gods getting upset about the doings of humans are more reliably considered to be the opinions of those who are incapable of showing their god has an opinion on 'sin'. It is, I contend, an attempt, subtle or otherwise, to induce in others thought or action the believer seeks to encourage (or discourage). In the final analysis, it's nothing more'n the ragged attempt by those incapable of showing they speak truth regarding the wants and wishes of a god they can't even show exists.
I'm unware of any reliable data that should lead one to the conclusion a god gives a hootin' dang about the doings of humans. The only data I'm aware of that reports to state the opinion of a god on such a matter is, best I can tell, fraught with human fears and prejudices.Did God Create Sin?
That said, I don't care what a god thinks about sin. I live my life according to my principles, not those principles of a god that just can't find it in himself to tell me what he expects. As relates to Christian accounts of a god's opinion, I see nothing there that leads me to the conclusion that Christians turn out superior in regards to 'sin', than any random collection of human beings one might assemble.
Conclusion?
Tales of gods getting upset about the doings of humans are more reliably considered to be the opinions of those who are incapable of showing their god has an opinion on 'sin'. It is, I contend, an attempt, subtle or otherwise, to induce in others thought or action the believer seeks to encourage (or discourage). In the final analysis, it's nothing more'n the ragged attempt by those incapable of showing they speak truth regarding the wants and wishes of a god they can't even show exists.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: Did God Create Sin?
Post #46My thoughts....hmmn. I believe that if it is not possible to surprise Him, it's not free will.Rkrause wrote:
Concerning your free will argument (first time I really disagree with you). If I understand correctly you don't believe God knows the future actions of humans because if He did we wouldn't have true free will?
I believe it is perspective. God knows what we will do but in our perspective we always have free will to do whatever we want. God doesn't control our free will (in most cases) and His foreknowledge of what we will do doesn't change our free will options (in our perspective).
Your thoughts?
I believe that He might know what we will, in all probability, do...because He knows us (like I KNEW that my son Adam would sneak into the cookies, and find them no matter where I hid them), but we have to be able to surprise Him and do something else, instead. I believe that each choice we make alters the probabilities/ possibilities, so that His knowledge changes according to that.
Some people believe that there are an infinity of universes, and that a new one appears with every possible decision. It could be like that...and what gives us free will is that WE...our conscious selves, get to pick which one we influence.
Whatever the truth is on this, it's not a matter of perspective here; either we have free will (and the possibility of doing something God didn't 'see' coming) or we don't. That possibility might be very small...but it must be possible!
Re: Did God Create Sin?
Post #47[Replying to post 1 by ViperaRex]
viper, the main point is that god wanted us to be free willed beings in his image and likeness, with great gifts and virtues. he didnt want a world of robots programmed only for basic operations. so in giving us free will by definition we have the ability to reject him. rejecting god is sin. god no more created sin than he created darkness. darkness is just the absence of light. god created light. had adam and eve not blatantly defied him there would be no death or suffering.
viper, the main point is that god wanted us to be free willed beings in his image and likeness, with great gifts and virtues. he didnt want a world of robots programmed only for basic operations. so in giving us free will by definition we have the ability to reject him. rejecting god is sin. god no more created sin than he created darkness. darkness is just the absence of light. god created light. had adam and eve not blatantly defied him there would be no death or suffering.
Re: Did God Create Sin?
Post #48[Replying to post 1 by ViperaRex]
viper, the main point is that god wanted us to be free willed beings in his image and likeness, with great gifts and virtues. he didnt want a world of robots programmed only for basic operations. so in giving us free will by definition we have the ability to reject him. rejecting god is sin. god no more created sin than he created darkness. darkness is just the absence of light. god created light. had adam and eve not blatantly defied him there would be no death or suffering.
your scientist story is a bit of a strawman. its more like when a scientist dreams up an experiment where he builds a huge ant farm. and he gives the ants enough sugar and water every day to live forever but some of the ants just gorge themselves on too much and die. some are good and store extra food for later and even share. this scientist knows some will be gluttonous but he loves the ants so much he continues to feed them every day . he doesnt force feed each one the right exact amount. its up to them to learn and grow strong and healthy, because he loves them. he could have cloned the perfect ant that always ate the right amount and was never prone to eating the other ants but he didnt see the joy inthat. he wanted them to decide.
viper, the main point is that god wanted us to be free willed beings in his image and likeness, with great gifts and virtues. he didnt want a world of robots programmed only for basic operations. so in giving us free will by definition we have the ability to reject him. rejecting god is sin. god no more created sin than he created darkness. darkness is just the absence of light. god created light. had adam and eve not blatantly defied him there would be no death or suffering.
your scientist story is a bit of a strawman. its more like when a scientist dreams up an experiment where he builds a huge ant farm. and he gives the ants enough sugar and water every day to live forever but some of the ants just gorge themselves on too much and die. some are good and store extra food for later and even share. this scientist knows some will be gluttonous but he loves the ants so much he continues to feed them every day . he doesnt force feed each one the right exact amount. its up to them to learn and grow strong and healthy, because he loves them. he could have cloned the perfect ant that always ate the right amount and was never prone to eating the other ants but he didnt see the joy inthat. he wanted them to decide.
Re: Did God Create Sin?
Post #50Thanks but I will have to disagree with you on this concept. IMO it doesn't matter if God knows our future or not. Free will is ours within our perspective because we can't see the future or the impact of our decisions before they are made.dianaiad wrote:My thoughts....hmmn. I believe that if it is not possible to surprise Him, it's not free will.Rkrause wrote:
Concerning your free will argument (first time I really disagree with you). If I understand correctly you don't believe God knows the future actions of humans because if He did we wouldn't have true free will?
I believe it is perspective. God knows what we will do but in our perspective we always have free will to do whatever we want. God doesn't control our free will (in most cases) and His foreknowledge of what we will do doesn't change our free will options (in our perspective).
Your thoughts?
I believe that He might know what we will, in all probability, do...because He knows us (like I KNEW that my son Adam would sneak into the cookies, and find them no matter where I hid them), but we have to be able to surprise Him and do something else, instead. I believe that each choice we make alters the probabilities/ possibilities, so that His knowledge changes according to that.
Some people believe that there are an infinity of universes, and that a new one appears with every possible decision. It could be like that...and what gives us free will is that WE...our conscious selves, get to pick which one we influence.
Whatever the truth is on this, it's not a matter of perspective here; either we have free will (and the possibility of doing something God didn't 'see' coming) or we don't. That possibility might be very small...but it must be possible!
