Did God Create Sin?

[ViperaRex]

Okay, Christians will usually say, "no, God did not create sin, it was Adam & Eve/ the Serpent, who created sin. They say; "God created the conditions through which sin might be born, but he himself did not create sin". This argument might make sense if God couldn't see the future, but according to the bible, he can, rendering this argument absolutely ridiculous, let me give you an analogy:

I Am a scientist,one day I become bored, I decide to create an experiment for my amusement, however, I know that conducting this particular experiment will release a toxic gas that will spread and kill everything within a 5 mile radius, This isn't the main point of the experiment, but it is a byproduct I know will occur. I strap on a gas mask, shrug, and do it anyway. Sure enough, the gas is released, and thousands of of people die. Surely I would be blamed for it, as I knew it would happen but did it anyway, would you defend me and say; "Hey, he didn't create the gas, he simply created the conditions in which that gas might be created, but he didn't make it". Of course you wouldn't, that makes no sense.

God didn't say, "Let there be sin", but he created it by creating the right conditions and allowing it to happen.

And thus, how can he be angry at us for sinning, when it is not really our fault that we sin, if he had not created the conditions for sin, it would not exist.

So, my question is, did God create sin?, if you believe "no", please justify it in light of all this

[dianaiad]

God created us knowing that we would sin.

When He gave us the ability to make decisions, He opened up the potential for sin, but didn't create sin. When Adam and Eve sinned, they brought sin into the world.

There's a lot of literature on this, and I wouldn't expect the people on a forum like this to have the most insightful comments. But think about this: sin only exists through an agent. It isn't something that is "created." It's something that we do.

So , since God is so perfect, why did he create us so we would sin?

Being able to make decisions doesn't mean we have the potential for sin. That claim is just plain silly.

Goat, your claiming that it is 'silly' does not make it so.

I am told being able to sin is because of 'Free Will.' WHy did God create free will?>

So that we could make choices and learn from them; so that we could, when we deal with ourselves, others and Him, deal in honesty; because we are who we are, not some artificial construct with no ability to grow, learn, or think critically.

Being able to choose CREATES evil...in that, between any two (or more) choices, only one can be 'the best' choice. All the others are 'not the best,' and thus evil in some sense of the word. Perhaps only a tiny bit evil, but evil, nonetheless.

this is the nature of choice. The only way one can remove evil is to remove choice, completely. Everybody does everything the 'best' way...and that is, the way everybody else does it.

All programs that do precisely the same tasks in precisely the same way, with precisely the same results; interchangeable, replaceable, like mass produced toothpicks.

The idea is that we LEARN from our choices; which are good ones, which are bad...and which are simply 'less good.' Without that, why bother?

[southern cross]

[Replying to post 58 by Rkrause]

Yes evil existed before God created the Tree of the knowldge of Good and Evil, just as imperfection existed before perfection. Dark existed before light etc...

The difference is that God didn't create imperfection only humans are willing to do that through our knowledge of evil. God won't create imperfection nor did He.

You guys get tied up in knots when you "pretzelytise".
God is perfection
Imperfection existed before perfection.
Humans create imperfection.
Conclusion
Humans existed before god.
Are you sure you want to run with this?

[southern cross]

[Replying to post 60 by dianaiad]

Ahh I see you taken my side of the debate now, welcome aboard.

The only way one can remove evil is to remove choice, completely

Just what I've been saying.

[dianaiad]

[Replying to post 60 by dianaiad]

Ahh I see you taken my side of the debate now, welcome aboard.

The only way one can remove evil is to remove choice, completely

Just what I've been saying.

No.

What you have been saying is that all this is somehow God's fault, that this makes Him 'evil'....or nonexistent. Certainly you have been ridiculing and mocking the beliefs of theists....and specifically, mine.

So no. I am not on your side. OR taking your argument.

Remember...free will means 'the ability to choose.' That means the ability to choose WELL as much as it does the ability to choose poorly. How is it GOD'S fault, if WE choose evil?

I'll tell you what I think: I thank God every day that I have the ability to choose evil...because that means, when I choose good, it is ME doing the choosing. I am the one learning. I am the one caring, and I am the one growing in character.

If I depend upon Him to guide me in that choice...it's still me choosing. If I hold to His love, it's me doing the holding. If I submit to Him...I'm still making the choice.

In the NT there is a metaphor: behold, I stand at the door and knock. Whether I open the door or not is MY choice.

As to why God would do this...that is, fix His children so that they can choose evil and harm one another?

I think it is because He would rather have children with Him who want to be there. Not because HE has made them want it, but because THEY want it.

I believe that our eventual, eternal purposes are so full of promise, so...BIG...that it is rather important that we can be trusted, OURSELVES, to choose well when the 'universe changing' choices are placed in front of us.

.......and I don't particularly care whether you agree with me or not. That's my belief. We are here, in this world, for schooling and for testing...to see what we are 'made of.'

It's...boot camp.
Or college.
Or grade school.
Or SAT tests.
Or the GRE.

Whatever metaphor you like, this life was meant for us to LEARN from, and grow from. We can't do that if we can't screw up.

[Rkrause]

[Replying to post 58 by Rkrause]

Yes evil existed before God created the Tree of the knowldge of Good and Evil, just as imperfection existed before perfection. Dark existed before light etc...

The difference is that God didn't create imperfection only humans are willing to do that through our knowledge of evil. God won't create imperfection nor did He.

You guys get tied up in knots when you "pretzelytise".
God is perfection
Imperfection existed before perfection.
Humans create imperfection.
Conclusion
Humans existed before god.
Are you sure you want to run with this?

When did I say humans created imperfection? I stated that humans are the cause of imperfection of Gods perfection but not that they created it.

[southern cross]

[Replying to post 58 by Rkrause]

Yes evil existed before God created the Tree of the knowldge of Good and Evil, just as imperfection existed before perfection. Dark existed before light etc...

The difference is that God didn't create imperfection only humans are willing to do that through our knowledge of evil. God won't create imperfection nor did He.

You guys get tied up in knots when you "pretzelytise".
God is perfection
Imperfection existed before perfection.
Humans create imperfection.
Conclusion
Humans existed before god.
Are you sure you want to run with this?

When did I say humans created imperfection? I stated that humans are the cause of imperfection of Gods perfection but not that they created it.

That's what you got? Seriously? So funny.
Try the "Imperfection existed before Perfection."
Oh and your eternal god is perfection.
There's a bit there you were to afraid to read. C'mon.......grow something.

[Rkrause]

[Replying to post 58 by Rkrause]

Yes evil existed before God created the Tree of the knowldge of Good and Evil, just as imperfection existed before perfection. Dark existed before light etc...

The difference is that God didn't create imperfection only humans are willing to do that through our knowledge of evil. God won't create imperfection nor did He.

You guys get tied up in knots when you "pretzelytise".
God is perfection
Imperfection existed before perfection.
Humans create imperfection.
Conclusion
Humans existed before god.
Are you sure you want to run with this?

When did I say humans created imperfection? I stated that humans are the cause of imperfection of Gods perfection but not that they created it.

That's what you got? Seriously? So funny.
Try the "Imperfection existed before Perfection."
Oh and your eternal god is perfection.
There's a bit there you were to afraid to read. C'mon.......grow something.

Ok let me reword this for you. Imperfection is an abstract concept, perfection is an abstract concept and they both existed at the same time but not on the same concete concept at the same moment.

God only creates perfect concete objects and mankind will alter those objects which cause the concrete objects to have imperfect flaws.

trolling?

[southern cross]

[Replying to post 58 by Rkrause]

Yes evil existed before God created the Tree of the knowldge of Good and Evil, just as imperfection existed before perfection. Dark existed before light etc...

The difference is that God didn't create imperfection only humans are willing to do that through our knowledge of evil. God won't create imperfection nor did He.

You guys get tied up in knots when you "pretzelytise".
God is perfection
Imperfection existed before perfection.
Humans create imperfection.
Conclusion
Humans existed before god.
Are you sure you want to run with this?

When did I say humans created imperfection? I stated that humans are the cause of imperfection of Gods perfection but not that they created it.

That's what you got? Seriously? So funny.
Try the "Imperfection existed before Perfection."
Oh and your eternal god is perfection.
There's a bit there you were to afraid to read. C'mon.......grow something.

Ok let me reword this for you. Imperfection is an abstract concept, perfection is an abstract concept and they both existed at the same time but not on the same concete concept at the same moment.

God only creates perfect concete objects and mankind will alter those objects which cause the concrete objects to have imperfect flaws.

trolling?

Oh no, is this the best you've got? Seriously?
So to correct your mistake, you now wish to claim that perfection and imperfection exist simultaneously, without recanting your previous claim.
I'm not sure, but do you understand what a lie is? I know but don't consider it a sin. But I would think that you do consider what you have posted is a sin.
But please don't stop digging now.

[Rkrause]

[Replying to post 58 by Rkrause]

Yes evil existed before God created the Tree of the knowldge of Good and Evil, just as imperfection existed before perfection. Dark existed before light etc...

The difference is that God didn't create imperfection only humans are willing to do that through our knowledge of evil. God won't create imperfection nor did He.

You guys get tied up in knots when you "pretzelytise".
God is perfection
Imperfection existed before perfection.
Humans create imperfection.
Conclusion
Humans existed before god.
Are you sure you want to run with this?

When did I say humans created imperfection? I stated that humans are the cause of imperfection of Gods perfection but not that they created it.

That's what you got? Seriously? So funny.
Try the "Imperfection existed before Perfection."
Oh and your eternal god is perfection.
There's a bit there you were to afraid to read. C'mon.......grow something.

Ok let me reword this for you. Imperfection is an abstract concept, perfection is an abstract concept and they both existed at the same time but not on the same concete concept at the same moment.

God only creates perfect concete objects and mankind will alter those objects which cause the concrete objects to have imperfect flaws.

trolling?

Oh no, is this the best you've got? Seriously?
So to correct your mistake, you now wish to claim that perfection and imperfection exist simultaneously, without recanting your previous claim.
I'm not sure, but do you understand what a lie is? I know but don't consider it a sin. But I would think that you do consider what you have posted is a sin.
But please don't stop digging now.

Ok, you win I can't get through to you...

[southern cross]

[Replying to post 68 by Rkrause]

On the contrary. You got through to me. You wish me to accept your lies in order that your beliefs can be believed. When someone deliberately lies to me, I am unlikely to believe them concerning anything.
So you got through to me, unfortunately for you, it was your absolute dishonesty that came through.
praise your god.