Can the Resurrection of Jesus be Defended

[Tired of the Nonsense]

There are no (Christians present) in actual point of fact. None that will support the story of the death and resurrection of Jesus as a point of "logic, reason and critical thinking." Unless there happens to be a Christian newbe present that I am unaware of who wishes to tackle the job. None of the Christian regulars here will defend the story of the resurrection beyond a "The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it," defense.

Not so. None is all. I would defend it gladly. Logic and reason reveals what is most evident and what the Bible reveals is absolutely most evident. Start the thread up if you dare. Bring your best arguments.

[SelectThis!]

[Replying to post 1 by Tired of the Nonsense]

To prove anything, we must first try to disprove it. I'll leave that up to others as this is a task I have already failed to accomplish. My ambition will not be to prove anything, but to simply show that probability is on the side of Christ existing and his message as being true. If you apply any logic or reasoning on one end of the argument, it must also be applied to the opposite end of the argument equally. If you use logic and reason to disprove by supposed evidence, you must also use the same logic and reasoning for evidence that suggests a supporting view of the life of Christ.

Anything that reaches out beyond the bell curve of probability must be confirmed with extra emphasis for or against the argument. For instance, prophecy that can be shown to meet the requirements of historical context must be seen as bonus weight toward the argument. This historical context must also prove to be accurate to the message of the one delivering it. If there is a failure in context or message as related to the prediction, then probability can be seen to sway the argument one way or another. Equally, if a prophecy predicted can be show as a paradox to history, then this will show more weight for the argument that Christ never existed. If context can show a higher axiom, then the evidence that resolves paradox must be used as what is most evident. For instance, if a prophecy seems to have failed, but another part of scripture shows a different way to read the same words, then the refinement to the context must be considered by related associations. Higher truth always resolves paradox if it applies by context.

I will give a real world example to this. Say a train engineer and a friend argue that the train whistle changes pitch. The engineer, riding with the whistle, hears no pitch change. The friend in the fixed position hears the whistle change pitch as the train pass. In this case, the contradiction they argue about is simply resolved by knowing the higher axiom. The Doppler Effect is responsible and resolves the contradiction. It IS possible for two sides of an argument to be true at the same time. Knowing the excluded middle allows for us to resolve the evidence toward or away from what is claimed.

Here is the issue with the evidence for Christ. It's not as easy as asking, "Did Christ live on Earth as a man?" The question must be answered by more than witnesses in this case. Christ is a unique paradox beyond simply living on Earth. He had a message and claimed to be the resolution to our problems as living beings. If we are asking if Abraham Lincoln lived, none of us have direct evidence for this apart from pictures, textbooks and letters or signatures. We can trace the man down easily, but do not need to use any connecting evidence past what is obvious. The fact he was for or against slavery does not produce evidence toward the existence of the man. If we are speaking of Plato, we only have his words and a few words from others at the time. The farther we go back, the less likely it is we have real evidence for a character from history.

With Christ, we have other dimensions and levels of evidence that must be considered. Aside form simply seeking witnesses and testimony, we have something far better. With Christ, we have a claim that He has the power of God at his disposal for knowing the future, controlling nations, undoing evil and placing leaders in positions of power. We have the claim that miracles occur and can be verified, even to this day. We have the claim that he knew future conditions in the world and would tie those into economic and political realities. Some of this evidence only provides partial weight to the probability he existed and is who he claims to be. No ONE single evidence provides a definitive answer, but taken as a whole, there is no denial of the evidence confirming Christ as what he claimed.

This first post sets up my thinking. As I engage you with evidence, I don't just have evidence from the New Testament. I can also dig into the Old for help for added dimensions to the same artifacts that present weight from the standpoint of probability. The more I can show that it is probable he existed, the more evident the claim becomes. On the other side of this, the more improbable the claim become, the less we can weigh probability as confirming the claims. Christ is a rare case in all of this. There are more words, books and theological examinations of this one man than any other figure of divinity we know. Here is an example.

Although this is nowhere near the evidence I will present, I show this as a partial bit of weight to the scales of our probability box. The 15th Edition to the Encyclopedia Britannica has 20,000 words dedicated to Christ. In all of those words, there are no hints that he never existed. There are more words in the Encyclopedia Britannica about Christ than any person within the book.

Speaking of books that mention Christ, the Bible cannot be disconnected in any way from the factors we will consider within the realm of probability. For Christ to be true to what is claimed, we must examine every avenue to this story, both past, present and even future. Now that you have my outline and platform for logically discussing this with rational evidence and reasoning, I can begin with my own perspective. I would like to offer one more bit of logic to add to the pot.

The scribes that encoded truth, science, future events, prophecy and parables into the Bible, used seven rules to Hermetically seal this information into the Word of God. Current day Hermeneutics is the process derived from these seven rules. I will use these seven rules to ensure that what is divided as truth from the Word is also divided rightly from OT to NT. Most times, these associations will be obviously assumed.

http://www.yashanet.com/studies/revstudy/hillel.htm

1. Kal Vahomer (Light and heavy)

The Kal vahomer rule says that what applies in a less important case will certainly apply in a more important case. A kal vahomer argument is often, but not always, signaled by a phrase like "how much more..."

2. G'zerah Shavah (Equivalence of expresions)

An analogy is made between two separate texts on the basis of a similar phrase, word or root " i.e., where the same words are applied to two separate cases, it follows that the same considerations apply to both.

3. Binyan ab mikathub echad (Building up a "family" from a single text)

A principle is found in several passages: A consideration found in one of them applies to all.

4. Binyab ab mishene kethubim (Building up a "family" from two or more texts)

A principle is established by relating two texts together: The principle can then be applied to other passages.

5. Kelal uferat (The general and the particular)

A general principle may be restricted by a particularization of it in another verse " or, conversely, a particular rule may be extended into a general principle.

6. Kayotze bo mimekom akhar (Analogy made from another passage)

Two passages may seem to conflict until compared with a third, which has points of general though not necessarily verbal similarity.

7. Davar hilmad me'anino (Explanation obtained from context)

The total context, not just the isolated statement must be considered for an accurate exegesis.

For much of the evidence I will present, I will use the knowledge of Paul as presented in the word of God. Paul is a unique witness because he was connected to Hillel himself and spans both the knowledge of the OT and the new covenant of the NT.

At this point, you will say that scripture does not prove anything. Right you are, except for one point. Our current context in history is the evidence that I can easily use for weight toward probability. If I can show a direct connection between what is happening in our world, the connections we can easily see to the ancient past and the coming future, I will have shown his message to be more valid than less. A valid message from God can then be used to show probability that aids in our view of what is most evident.

Proof is the highest axiom possible. The highest axiom shows the lower axioms as unified. If this is possible for the life of Christ, then the question is a moot point. The one possessing the highest axiom confirms the story. With the life of Christ, we are not simply confirming his life lived, we are confirming the symbolism of that life as applied to future events. Not only will I show the probability of his life lived to be an artifact-out-of-place, but I will show how this artifact defines our past, present and future experiences. The true story originates not in the first century, but before time began. The true story of Christ is the one that engaged all of us into this reality and universe.

If you will to participate, please avoid a short post that says, "No, that's not true." Instead, provided loads of context, logic, reason and above all, demonstrate probability in favor of or denying the assertions posted.

Bias is not a valid reply. Speak to the subject and don't step on the object.



.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Let's settle this one first.

Here's the full quote:

The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate. Sir, they said, we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said, After three days I will rise again. So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day. Otherwise, his disciples may come and steal the body and tell the people that he has been raised from the dead. This last deception will be worse than the first. Take a guard, Pilate answered. Go, make the tomb as secure as you know how. So they went and made the tomb secure by putting a seal on the stone and posting the guard.

So the fragment you quoted was being said by people who were concerned that the disciples might try to steal the body of Jesus. It wasn't describing something that had happened. It was describing a concern. So Pilate sent guards to secure the tomb. And they did. They sealed the closed tomb.

This passage verifies that the tomb was closed and sealed and guarded before the resurrection. It does not verify, as you claimed, that the disciples stole the body or that they spread a "rumor" that Jesus rose from the dead.

It's all right there.

I fully agree. It's all right there. Matt. 27:62-66 is one of the most important passages in the NT. I actually know it by heart. The "fragment" I quoted was chosen to make a specific point about the disciples and their intention to promote a hoax by taking the body of Jesus. But let's address the entire four verses.

First however, allow me to place a simple hypothetical situation before you. It's a simple test designed to test your ability to reason, and frankly, your personal honesty. Assuming you have both, which I have no current reason to doubt, the test couldn't be more simple.

You leave home to run errands .After an hour or so you realize that you have forgotten to lock your front door. So you return home and lock the door without entering, and then leave again. Later, errands finished, you return home to your still locked house. Upon entering you discover that your TV is missing. Would your immediate conclusion be that (A.) SOMEONE took your TV prior to the door being locked? Or would you conclude that (B) your TV got up and left of it's own volition AFTER the door was locked? Which is the more logical conclusion, (A) or (B)?.

Now let's consider Matthew 27:62-66 point by point.

When was Jesus executed? ON THE DAY OF PREPARATION. In other words, on Friday, the day before the Sabbath which was also Passover that year. And when did the priests take possession of the tomb? "The next day, the one after Preparation Day." Sometime THE NEXT DAY, on Saturday.

John 19:
[42] There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.

And so after receiving permission from Pilate to take possession of the body of Jesus the disciples took the body to Joseph's brand new tomb, because it was "nigh at hand," as a convenient out-of-sight place to prepare the body in accordance with the requirement that all bodies had to be out of sight on the holy day. And they prepared it well, according to John 19:39-40. Joseph's personal tomb was never intended to be the final resting place of Jesus.

Matt. 27:
[62] Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
[63] Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
[64] Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.
[65] Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make it as sure as ye can.
[66] So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch.

When did the priests go to Pilate and request a guard at the tomb? Sometime THE NEXT DAY. That would be on Saturday, the holy day. And so the priests went out to the closed tomb, sealed it with seals consisting of cords and wax or clay embossed with an official seal, and then set a guard. But they did not open it to inspect it for the body of Jesus, due to the nature of the day and the prohibition of their own laws. Their actions according to Matthew 27:66 tell us SPECIFICALLY that they were uncertain if the body was still inside. If the priests had known for a certainty that the body was still in the tomb, no seals would have been needed. Posting the guard would have been enough to ensure that the body remained inside until after the holy day had passed. Being uncertain if the body was inside necessitated the placement of official seals, to protect the honor of the guards. Without knowing if the body was actually inside, there was no way of knowing if the guards had done their duty, should the tomb subsequently prove to be empty. WHICH IT DID! So the priests placed the seals precisely because they were uncertain if the body was actually inside. And what do we discover on Sunday morning. THE TOMB IS EMPTY!

So who had ACTUALLY taken the body of Jesus? Well, WHO WERE THE LAST ONES TO BE CLEARLY IN POSSESSION OF IT?

John 19:
[38] And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
[39] And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.

And the answer would be that HIS DISCIPLES got permission from the Roman governor to take possession of the body of Jesus and were therefore the last ones to be clearly in control of it. They didn't have to steal it, it had been GIVEN TO THEM the previous day by the Roman governor to do with as they saw fit.

John 19:
[42] There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.

So the body of Jesus was taken to the brand new private crypt of Joseph because it was a convenient and private place to prepare it. To HEAVILY prepare the body in fact, with a hundred pounds of sweet smelling herbs and ointments mixed into the wrappings. The sort of heavy preparation which could only serve one viable purpose; to cover the smell of decay for an extended period. And only necessary if the intention was to transport the body elsewhere on a trip of many days. Joseph's brand new and expensive family crypt was never intended to be the final resting place for the body of Jesus. As soon as the preparation was completed the body of Jesus began it's journey to it's final resting place. We know this perfectly well because the tomb proved to be empty on Sunday morning.

And where would the final resting place likely have been? Well the NT doesn't tell us that specifically. Or does it? Where is the most obvious final destination for the transportation of a corpse? Usually that would be HOME, back to the family. Which in the case of Jesus would have been Galilee. Where did the apostles go immediately after the execution of Jesus?

Matt. 28:16 "Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them."

THAT WOULD BE GALILEE! A journey of a week or so. Presumably the mountain in question would have been Mt. Tabor on the plain of Galilee which is traditionally believed to have been the site of Jesus' Transfiguration. Mountain caves were also commonly used as burial sites.

And so sometime Saturday the priests went out and took possession of Joseph's closed tomb. Because it was a holy day they were unable to open it and search for the body of Jesus. So they did the obvious thing. They placed seals on the tomb and waited for the holy day to pass. The earliest and most discreet opportunity to open and search the tomb for the body of Jesus would have been during the early morning hours of Sunday. Low and behold, the women discovered that the tomb is open and empty at the crack of dawn Sunday morning. Now, as a test of reason and logic, not to mention your personal honesty, which is the more obvious conclusion here? (A) That the tomb was already empty when the priests took possession of it? Or (B) that the corpse came back to life and left of it's own volition, ultimately flying off, up into the clouds?

[hERICtic]

Let's settle this one first.

Here's the full quote:

The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate. Sir, they said, we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said, After three days I will rise again. So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day. Otherwise, his disciples may come and steal the body and tell the people that he has been raised from the dead. This last deception will be worse than the first. Take a guard, Pilate answered. Go, make the tomb as secure as you know how. So they went and made the tomb secure by putting a seal on the stone and posting the guard.

So the fragment you quoted was being said by people who were concerned that the disciples might try to steal the body of Jesus. It wasn't describing something that had happened. It was describing a concern. So Pilate sent guards to secure the tomb. And they did. They sealed the closed tomb.

This passage verifies that the tomb was closed and sealed and guarded before the resurrection. It does not verify, as you claimed, that the disciples stole the body or that they spread a "rumor" that Jesus rose from the dead.

It's all right there.

I fully agree. It's all right there. Matt. 27:62-66 is one of the most important passages in the NT. I actually know it by heart. The "fragment" I quoted was chosen to make a specific point about the disciples and their intention to promote a hoax by taking the body of Jesus. But let's address the entire four verses.

First however, allow me to place a simple hypothetical situation before you. It's a simple test designed to test your ability to reason, and frankly, your personal honesty. Assuming you have both, which I have no current reason to doubt, the test couldn't be more simple.

You leave home to run errands .After an hour or so you realize that you have forgotten to lock your front door. So you return home and lock the door without entering, and then leave again. Later, errands finished, you return home to your still locked house. Upon entering you discover that your TV is missing. Would your immediate conclusion be that (A.) SOMEONE took your TV prior to the door being locked? Or would you conclude that (B) your TV got up and left of it's own volition AFTER the door was locked? Which is the more logical conclusion, (A) or (B)?.

Now let's consider Matthew 27:62-66 point by point.

When was Jesus executed? ON THE DAY OF PREPARATION. In other words, on Friday, the day before the Sabbath which was also Passover that year. And when did the priests take possession of the tomb? "The next day, the one after Preparation Day." Sometime THE NEXT DAY, on Saturday.

John 19:
[42] There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.

And so after receiving permission from Pilate to take possession of the body of Jesus the disciples took the body to Joseph's brand new tomb, because it was "nigh at hand," as a convenient out-of-sight place to prepare the body in accordance with the requirement that all bodies had to be out of sight on the holy day. And they prepared it well, according to John 19:39-40. Joseph's personal tomb was never intended to be the final resting place of Jesus.

Matt. 27:
[62] Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
[63] Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
[64] Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.
[65] Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make it as sure as ye can.
[66] So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch.

When did the priests go to Pilate and request a guard at the tomb? Sometime THE NEXT DAY. That would be on Saturday, the holy day. And so the priests went out to the closed tomb, sealed it with seals consisting of cords and wax or clay embossed with an official seal, and then set a guard. But they did not open it to inspect it for the body of Jesus, due to the nature of the day and the prohibition of their own laws. Their actions according to Matthew 27:66 tell us SPECIFICALLY that they were uncertain if the body was still inside. If the priests had known for a certainty that the body was still in the tomb, no seals would have been needed. Posting the guard would have been enough to ensure that the body remained inside until after the holy day had passed. Being uncertain if the body was inside necessitated the placement of official seals, to protect the honor of the guards. Without knowing if the body was actually inside, there was no way of knowing if the guards had done their duty, should the tomb subsequently prove to be empty. WHICH IT DID! So the priests placed the seals precisely because they were uncertain if the body was actually inside. And what do we discover on Sunday morning. THE TOMB IS EMPTY!

So who had ACTUALLY taken the body of Jesus? Well, WHO WERE THE LAST ONES TO BE CLEARLY IN POSSESSION OF IT?

John 19:
[38] And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
[39] And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.

And the answer would be that HIS DISCIPLES got permission from the Roman governor to take possession of the body of Jesus and were therefore the last ones to be clearly in control of it. They didn't have to steal it, it had been GIVEN TO THEM the previous day by the Roman governor to do with as they saw fit.

John 19:
[42] There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.

So the body of Jesus was taken to the brand new private crypt of Joseph because it was a convenient and private place to prepare it. To HEAVILY prepare the body in fact, with a hundred pounds of sweet smelling herbs and ointments mixed into the wrappings. The sort of heavy preparation which could only serve one viable purpose; to cover the smell of decay for an extended period. And only necessary if the intention was to transport the body elsewhere on a trip of many days. Joseph's brand new and expensive family crypt was never intended to be the final resting place for the body of Jesus. As soon as the preparation was completed the body of Jesus began it's journey to it's final resting place. We know this perfectly well because the tomb proved to be empty on Sunday morning.

And where would the final resting place likely have been? Well the NT doesn't tell us that specifically. Or does it? Where is the most obvious final destination for the transportation of a corpse? Usually that would be HOME, back to the family. Which in the case of Jesus would have been Galilee. Where did the apostles go immediately after the execution of Jesus?

Matt. 28:16 "Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them."

THAT WOULD BE GALILEE! A journey of a week or so. Presumably the mountain in question would have been Mt. Tabor on the plain of Galilee which is traditionally believed to have been the site of Jesus' Transfiguration. Mountain caves were also commonly used as burial sites.

And so sometime Saturday the priests went out and took possession of Joseph's closed tomb. Because it was a holy day they were unable to open it and search for the body of Jesus. So they did the obvious thing. They placed seals on the tomb and waited for the holy day to pass. The earliest and most discreet opportunity to open and search the tomb for the body of Jesus would have been during the early morning hours of Sunday. Low and behold, the women discovered that the tomb is open and empty at the crack of dawn Sunday morning. Now, as a test of reason and logic, not to mention your personal honesty, which is the more obvious conclusion here? (A) That the tomb was already empty when the priests took possession of it? Or (B) that the corpse came back to life and left of it's own volition, ultimately flying off, up into the clouds?

Its obvious what had transpired. The body was never placed in the tomb. But here is the issue I have.

Why would the author give all the clues as to what actually happened to the body....then write about how Jesus came back to life? Do you believe the author of Matthew was playing a joke on his reading audience? Do you believe the author truly believed Jesus walked around after death?

[SelectThis!]

[Replying to post 1 by Tired of the Nonsense]

Evidence One.

There is power in the word. If there is no power in the word, then nothing attributed to the man called Jesus will be shown to be true. Not only did he live as a man, he made the claim to be THE man that rendered particle, wave and consciousness into our hologram (Image / Gen. 1:27) of reality. The power in that word will allow me to show evidence for his life.

If Christ lived, then his words must outlive the man with divine implications to the future he claimed would exist. John 1 makes this claim.

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

The claim is that Creation and Time are generated by the word of the Son of God. Since Christ claimed to be the Son of God, we must assume that his words can speak existence into time and reality. If this fails, we do not have evidence of anything. I will show many examples as this thread progresses, but here to start is my favorite. By itself, it proves nothing of any merit. In relation to the overall message I can easily show how the bigger picture reveals the truth behind the man and his words.

Here is a good (my favorite) example:

Matthew 21

12 Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13 It is written, he said to them, My house will be called a house of prayer,[e] but you are making it a den of robbers.

Using the seven rules of Hillel, we must see more than this passage for it to be true today, but also in relation to the overall testament of God. We must look ahead and behind to the context it shows--and predicts for the future--by associations to the past. We must connect what is said to the overall picture of yesterday, today and tomorrow. If Christ was the fullness of the power of God in one man, the message will demonstrate the man from beginning to end in detail. It will also describe your life and mine in detail. By implication, the probability of this will keep us from denying the message it speaks and the one who spoke it. We deny ignorance by seeing what is most evident as true, but only by higher axioms that resolve paradox.

I make a bold statement: What I show will resolve paradox. What you use to argue my evidence will create paradox and contradiction. Let's see what happens.

--A table of a money-changer is a financial instrument today. In the past, it was a foundation to keep the money in the market of the temple in one place. A financial table shows debt and surplus today and the market table is the same foundation in the bank. We call it the Federal Reserve and Central Bank today. The moneychangers of today are easy to spot, as are the peacemakers.

--A bench is a place of rest.

--A dove denotes peace.

--A den of robbers is what we have today. Can you deny it?

Today, are the financial tables of the money-changers flipped to debt? Do the peacemakers have any rest today? What do they use to buy peace? The money they give away (AID) becomes debt for the people to inherit as slavery. Is it a den of robbers? Yes.

Christ condemned four groups:

1 Money Changers
2 Experts in the Law
3 Builders who reject the Chief Cornerstone (Masons)
4 False Priests (Peter)

I will eventually cover all four groups as connected to Christ's judgment of Babylon. When captivity is ended, judgment begins (1947).

Did the Bible predict that Babylon (World commerce system) would be overthrown, the mark of a beast arise and the cause of sorrow for the masses in relation? Did Christ promise to raise the temple in three days (3000 years) if they destroyed it (His body and reign on Earth)? Did he say he would revive the temple in two days and raise it in three. A day is 1000 years. I will show this as true later when I use it as evidence.

Hosea 6

After two days he will revive us (Last Generation / Israel);
on the third day he will restore us (Raise the Temple again),
that we may live in his presence.

Two of the days as a sign of Jonah to the experts in the law have passed. Again, I will show this later by relation to the overall picture. What happens after is the "Day of the Lord" (Final 1000 yerars).

Epistle of Barnabas 15:4

Give heed, children, what this meaneth; He ended in six days. He meaneth this, that in six thousand years the Lord shall bring all things to an end; for the day with Him signifyeth a thousand years; and this He himself beareth me witness, saying; Behold, the day of the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six days, that is in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end."

2 Days -Adam to Abraham 2000 Years of Age 1 (FATHER)
2 Days -Abraham to Jesus 2000 Years of Age 2 (SON)
2 Days -Jesus to Today 2000 Years of Age 3 (HOLY SPIRIT)
1 Day -Day of Rest (Day of the Lord) 1000 years (SALVATION)
-------
7 Days (7000 years - Approximately 6000 have passed)

How much context to this do we posses today? Do the money changers of today identify to 666 with a commerce system? How does that commerce system affect the financial tables? Did the number cause the debt?

Carbon has 6 protons, 6 neutrons and 6 electrons. Carbon is the mark of mankind and all life on Earth. It is the main aspect of our fruit of knowledge. What grows from knowledge? What you can produce from it. What is man's fruit? Technology (Graven Images).

Revelation 13

18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man.[e-or of mankind] That number is 666.

In Genesis, we were told to keep our hands from the fruit of knowledge. What is the fruit of knowledge? Obviously what grows from it (TECHNOLOGY). What does man use to generate the energy to manipulate God's perfect fruit (Carbon)? We use the carbon itself to transmute God's gift to us in the center of the garden. The Bible said this to us:

You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.

What has our manipulation of Carbon done to our world? Further, what did Revelation then say about our final use of Carbon? What does Carbon kill? The breath. 7 protons, 7 electrons and 7 neutrons is Nitrogen. 888 is Oxygen. The breath we possess is what Carbon has the potential to kill. Commerce and greed is selfishness and the error of mankind.

Revelation 13

15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

Do we have evidence that this reality is approaching? Of course we do. It's in your face. Although we cannot say that this system is here completely today, we do see calls for its implementation approaching rapidly. Do we see tyranny approaching as a result of the financial tables being turned? Yes. Christ is entering the temple and running out the moneychangers. There is power in that word.

What caused our present problems? Greed for one. The hallmark of any thief is that they leave debt behind for the people they steal from. In the 70's, the Carter Administration put together the ponzi scheme known as the Petrol Dollar. They exchanged aid packages and protection for oil producing nations if dollars were used for oil (Carbon) purchases. All those dollars flowed into the federal reserve and allowed one nation to engage a world economy and buy its own gas for free. We can simply print money against the infinite flow as it comes in. They took the money from the reserve to sent aid packages to all nations as types of bribes to keep peace and wield influence. Today, that system is falling apart and we are left with flipped tables in the richest nation on earth.

What do the words in that short passage from Matthew echo in relation to the larger picture of the NT? Do those words have great power that is demonstrated?

This is easy to spot. The mark of any beast is selfishness:

2 Timothy 3

3 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God" 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

There are 18 items above. MARK THIS! (6+6+6).

Does this fit the context? Yes. Did Christ give a prophecy that connects all points in between? Yes. Do we have probability that is beginning to mount toward confirmation? Of course.

This is not evidence Jesus lived as a man yet. It is evidence that what he said defies probability. It is evidence that implies he lived in a way that no other human can show from a life lived. We are living the future he spoke. If God sent a Son for this purpose, humanity can thank him later when the job is complete. Right now, it's faith for the faithful. Faith cannot be fact and here is why:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBu_Jw61UZE&

Is there more? YES.

Matthew 24

24 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 Do you see all these things? he asked. Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. Tell us, they said, when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?

Aside from predicting a coming economic system that we are now living with, we can also look to signs of the times to see if the two passages confirm a connection to today. The Temple he was referring to was Rome falling in 70 AD. Many of these things have been happening for all of history, but never to the degree we see them today. As you will see, the foreshadowing of the first century will happen today, just as the events of Joseph show the same story in a cycle of the same.

7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

The word nations here is better stated ethnicity.

9 Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

No other day can claim these things paired with the gospel reaching the WHOLE world.

15 So when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation,[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel"let the reader understand"

This is a future prediction. For now, this is not nearly as high on the probability scale as it will be when it happens. Admittedly, if this happens in an obvious way tomorrow, the likelihood of Christ living in the past and speaking these words increases exponentially. You can say, "This already happened in our past." You would be somewhat right, although my next post will show that it cannot be the last day until the Babylonian captivity ended in 1947. I will give another view from this in the next posts.

22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

With the BP oil spill, Fukushima and the mass die-offs of our ocean life, we can confirm today that this is more probable than ever. By itself, it's simply a statement. Combined with the above commerce system based on Carbon, we can see that we are polluting the Earth to the point of extinction. Again, it's an overall context to the words of a man some say never existed. What is the probability on this? We starting to add up.

A logical answer shows what is most evident.

24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

29 Immediately after the distress of those days

the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

What is the probability anyone living today or in our past could make such exacting predictions? Was there sufficient scientific knowledge available in that day to see such things from a common man perspective? Nobility maybe, but from such a man as this? Logic is closely related to probability.

Again, what will this provide to our provability when it occurs? Right now, it's insignificant. Then, it confirms the words of the man. Could he speak apart from the body to say the words? It's a question we ask.

30 Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

In relation to the earlier statements of common happenings on Earth, the middle of this chapter tips to future events that have not yet happened. Again, only half the chapter applies to our probability box.

32 Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Now here we have something to hang our hats on. I will pick this up in the next post to show that Israel is the fig tree and the final generation is the procession of the Earth divided by 360. One generation of the pole is 72 years. I will also show this connected to Enoch and fallen beings as they connect to the Mayans. I will further connect this to the Mayan Long Count Calendar and a timeline that we can verify as accurate based on Genesis 6. From there, I will then show a relation to current context and the ancient sites found across the Earth. Why is this important? Because we can verify it today as related to the words of the NT. You cannot separate the words of the NT or OT from the life of Christ. They are one item.

Where are we so far? Commerce system as confirmed by the words of the Bible. Christ acting as the judge of the thieves. One thief is on the right and repents and the other is on the left and is denied salvation. Both were thieves. Can we deny our current economic system is a mirror of the Word of God? What else might be true from this word?

There's power in the word!


.

[no evidence no belief]

[Replying to post 1 by Tired of the Nonsense]
Christians believe in the resurrection because we have faith, not because we have demonstrable evidence. Also because it holds our worldview together, explains our religious experiences, and makes sense of how we perceive the world. Oh yeah, and it makes sense.

If Jesus died and stayed dead, that means someone lied. Somehow that lie got spread around and some people believed it. How could that happen? Let's say the 11 apostles decided to make up the story. They go around telling everyone that Jesus rose from the grave... let's even say they stole the body so it would seem true. People are like "Oh yeah, he's alive? Where?" And Peter says "Well, he appeared to a bunch of people in the next town over, but he's not here anymore." And one guy says "Oh yeah? I'm going to go visit a friend there tomorrow, I'll ask about it because I'd like to know if it's true." No one can find anyone from the crowds that saw Jesus after the resurrection. No one can find anyone who saw Jesus ascend into heaven. No one can find any verification for the stuff the 11 apostles are saying. Everyone knows they're lying because their story is easily falsifiable.

But that's not what happened. So why did so many people believe the story?

We can even stipulate that the story was really clever and they paid a bunch of "witnesses" to give false testimony and somehow a bunch of people were gullible enough to believe the story. But why would the 11 apostles give up their lives for a lie, get tortured for a lie... without ever admitting that they made it up? And why would Paul join them?

It only makes sense if they genuinely believed.

If you believe the resurrection was made up, you have to explain human behavior during the 1st and 2nd centuries after his death.

This is your argument: "A bunch of people believe it so it must be true".

That's patently absurd.

Hitler was able to convince a lot of people that it was a good idea to exterminate the Jews. Doesn't mean it's true, does it?

You can take the same argument you're making for Christianity, and use it for Islam, Scientology, and the belief that Britney Spears is a singer.


Besides, you do realize that they didn't start making up the story of Jesus raising from the dead until after every person who was alive at the time and could give testimony was already dead. You're aware of the timeline of Christianity, right?

The Bible you read today is a translation of a document written in 350 AD, by some anonymous scribe in a land thousands of miles away from Jerusalem.

[aglassdarkly]

Joseph's personal tomb was never intended to be the final resting place of Jesus.

Support that claim, please.

When did the priests go to Pilate and request a guard at the tomb? Sometime THE NEXT DAY. That would be on Saturday, the holy day. And so the priests went out to the closed tomb, sealed it with seals consisting of cords and wax or clay embossed with an official seal, and then set a guard. But they did not open it to inspect it for the body of Jesus, due to the nature of the day and the prohibition of their own laws. Their actions according to Matthew 27:66 tell us SPECIFICALLY that they were uncertain if the body was still inside.

Matthe 27:66 says "So they went and made the tomb secure, sealing the stone, and setting the guard."

There's not even an implication that they suspected the tomb might be empty. The passage certainly doesn't tell us SPECIFICALLY of any uncertainty when the tomb was sealed. In fact, how do you know that part of securing the tomb didn't include checking it first?

If the priests had known for a certainty that the body was still in the tomb, no seals would have been needed. Posting the guard would have been enough to ensure that the body remained inside until after the holy day had passed. Being uncertain if the body was inside necessitated the placement of official seals, to protect the honor of the guards.

It's like locking the front door and setting the alarm. You do it to make doubly sure that no one will get inside. If they suspected that the body was gone already, there'd be no need for guards or a seal.

And what do we discover on Sunday morning. THE TOMB IS EMPTY!

And how did they discover that? Did the priests and guards break the seal and open the tomb to discover... SHOOT! THEY NEVER PUT THE BODY IN THERE!... ???

Nope.

To HEAVILY prepare the body in fact, with a hundred pounds of sweet smelling herbs and ointments mixed into the wrappings. The sort of heavy preparation which could only serve one viable purpose; to cover the smell of decay for an extended period.

Really? You can't think of any other purposes for the herbs and ointments?

None?

Really?

As soon as the preparation was completed the body of Jesus began it's journey to it's final resting place.

... and no one noticed?

-I'll be gone for a couple days?
-Where will you be, sweety?
-None yo bizzness woman!

-Where are you taking all those expensive smelly things, hun?
-Wherever I want, k?

We know this perfectly well because the tomb proved to be empty on Sunday morning.

You're assuming.

And where would the final resting place likely have been? Well the NT doesn't tell us that specifically. Or does it? Where is the most obvious final destination for the transportation of a corpse? Usually that would be HOME, back to the family. Which in the case of Jesus would have been Galilee. Where did the apostles go immediately after the execution of Jesus?

Matt. 28:16 "Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them."

THAT WOULD BE GALILEE! A journey of a week or so.

So you think the apostles pretended to put Jesus' body in the tomb, but they secretly covered it in ointments and spent a week taking the body to Galilee... and while they were gone Jesus appeared to the women and the other disciples in Jerusalem and to the apostles in Galilee? Like a very convincing puppet show (in Galilee) and a hallucination (in Jerusalem)? Or they all decided to lie about it?

Now, as a test of reason and logic, not to mention your personal honesty, which is the more obvious conclusion here? (A) That the tomb was already empty when the priests took possession of it? Or (B) that the corpse came back to life and left of it's own volition, ultimately flying off, up into the clouds?

The obvious conclusion isn't always right. And before we even consider what's obvious, we need to take into account the whole picture, not this one issue.

What's obvious to me is that Matthew 27:64 does not verify, as you claimed, that the disciples stole the body or that they spread a "rumor" that Jesus rose from the dead. Like hERICtic said, it wouldn't make sense for the biblical authors to explain how they fooled everyone... if they were still trying to fool people. It would be like a magician revealing his trick mid-illusion. What makes more sense, using your reason and logic: your interpretation stretches the truth into conspiracy-theory-land OR no one associated with the story believed it to be anything other than the truth?

Additionally, if you're right about the priests suspecting that Jesus' body wasn't in the tomb, why did the priests bribe the guards (who reported that an angel appeared and opened the tomb on the third day) to keep their mouths shut? Why didn't the priests say "SHOOT! THE TOMB WAS EMPTY THE WHOLE TIME!" ??? Your theory doesn't match the account.

[aglassdarkly]

This is your argument: "A bunch of people believe it so it must be true".

That's patently absurd.

That's not my argument.

[TheTruth101]

[Replying to post 24 by SelectThis!]



Hello SelectThis!, Just wanted to mention a few things here.

First, I just wanted to say that I'm glad there is another Theist out there who came to a similar conclusion as me on certain respects of the Bible.

Your quote here goes along with what I have been interpreting the Bible as in the end of days. And of the Holy Spirit. this is your quote here,

Give heed, children, what this meaneth; He ended in six days. He meaneth this, that in six thousand years the Lord shall bring all things to an end; for the day with Him signifyeth a thousand years; and this He himself beareth me witness, saying; Behold, the day of the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six days, that is in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end."

2 Days -Adam to Abraham 2000 Years of Age 1 (FATHER)
2 Days -Abraham to Jesus 2000 Years of Age 2 (SON)
2 Days -Jesus to Today 2000 Years of Age 3 (HOLY SPIRIT)
1 Day -Day of Rest (Day of the Lord) 1000 years (SALVATION)
-------
7 Days (7000 years - Approximately 6000 have passed)

On another thread I have started a thread and said this.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 84&start=0

It is another possiblity that there infact can be 2 "Messiahs", one that will rid of sins, and the other that will actually can humanity into heavens.

You must remember that just because one is rid of sins, it does not neccesaarilly mean one is accepted in heavens, within the scriptures, it can be very well established that if one is rid of sins, one is saved from hell, however, one can simply just perish, or know "nothing".


Thus the trinity represents three Gods as one. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

It is possible the Holy Spirit is the final messiah.

Just like it is said in the Bible in Revelations of the "two" prophets that can shut up the sky in the final days.

Also, The Son of Man, and One *"like" the Son of Man is mentioned in mathews as the final prophets.

It can very well mean The Son of man (ofcourse Jesus) and one "like" the Son of man is in regards to the Holy Spirit, or the final Messiah.

In all I belive that the world have not ended yet because the Holy Spirit (final messiah) have not come yet. (Should be soon though)

And this;

Within the bible,

1. Father the creater Yahweh is noted as all and everything.
1. Jesus is noted as Alpha and Omega, beggining and end.
2. Holy Spirit is noted as True and the living One.
3. It is noted Jesus is the King of Peace. (Giving peace to all nations in the final days)
4. It is noted Holy Spirit is the King of War. (Conquering all nations in the final days)


It is reasonable to believe through the scriptures that holy spirit is not born annointed, but is chosen by the Father and Jesus after being born and living as a normal human being for most of his life.
Holy spirit is pretty much a man being made into a God by the Father and Jesus.

Also,

Jesus came for the sin of mankind.
Holy Spirit will come for the end of mankind.



In the book of Daniel, we have a description of what the holy spirit looks like in his SECOND everlasting body.

1. Hair like wool
2. Cross on his breast plate
3. Carries two edged sword
4. Face full of strength as the sun. Eyes of fire.
5. Bronze feet
6. He also holds the keys of death and Hades like Jesus. (Power)

It is also noted he is "like" the "Ancient days" (who is the creator/Father) but not exactly.
It is also noted his kingdom will be uncorruptable. And all will worship him forever.


Also, it should be noted the Jews rejected the first Messiah (Jesus) within this concept and is waiting for the second Messiah as their savior ( holy spirit).

And another point, there was another thread created by a member here name Nickman calling the bible a fallacy as a whole because of the Jesus's returned date.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... &start=180

This was my rebuttel as to his OP,

1. All Apostles equated Jesus as becoming God.
2. Jesus's Apostles equated Gods time of one day equating to a thousand years with God.
3. Therefore, two days is pretty "nearing" time, but for us humans, two thousand years.

Hence all believed Apostles of God will and is God themselves, under Psalms,

Ye are Gods, saints of the most high.

It makes absolute sense this way.


You should care to look into why theists believe that earth is 6,000 to 7,000 years old, hence God made the world in 6-7 days arguably and again,

Thousand years is 1 day to the lord

(Hence human specie is 6,000 - 7,000 years old. However They don't add in the factor of 12 other species made different of their time before we were created.)

In all, I just wanted to let you know that its not easy reaching that conclusion that you have through the Bible. It takes years of hard work and hard pressed researching and ofcourse wisdom through it all. Just wanted to let you know that there is another fellaw Theist out there who came to the same conclusion as you and that you are not alone.

And also, according to your quoto and my interpretation of how I see the truth that goes along with the scripture written, I also belive that its the end of mankind real soon. I started a thread here a few weeks back here.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=22570


Anyway, good to know another member have came to the same conclusion as me through their own research.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Why would the author give all the clues as to what actually happened to the body....then write about how Jesus came back to life? Do you believe the author of Matthew was playing a joke on his reading audience? Do you believe the author truly believed Jesus walked around after death?

It seems unlikely that the author of Acts and Gospel Luke, who were the same person, as well as the authors of Gospels Mark and John were anything other than true believers themselves and were not a party to any hoax or conspiracy to deceive. The information these three individuals provided was likely based on the facts as they understood them, without concern for details which might serve to undermine the story since they believed it to be all true. Much as any modern Christian might tell the story without concern that the details might actually serve to undermine the telling. That the author of Gospel Matthew was or was not aware of any conspiracy is an open question. The story of the slaughter of the innocents which closely parallels the story of Moses' birth and which cannot be authenticated historically, his "Night of the Living Dead" tale, (Matt.27:52-53) which not only cannot be authenticated historically but represents a whopper of a lie of "Biblical" proportions, and most important to this discussion, the story of the guard at the tomb, a detail of such massive importance to the story of the risen Christ but which was strangely omitted from every other Gospel. I can hardly hazard a guess as to what anyone as loose with the truth as the author of Gospel Matthew might actually have believed personally, or who the author actually was for that matter. What is clear is that the author of Gospel Matthew went way out of his way, unsuccessfully as it turned out, to dispel the commonly held opinion at the time that the disciples of Jesus had simply moved the body elsewhere, by inventing a story of a guard at the tomb. But in doing so the author of Gospel Matthew has provided us with the obvious suspects! Even the author of Gospel Luke, who incorporated some of the material from Gospel Matthew into his narrative, refused to include the guard fable into his own Gospel for what must have been clearly recognized at the time to have been a blatant lie. With or without the guard at the tomb, the obvious answer is that someone moved the body elsewhere and not that it came back to life and flew away.

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

Can the Resurrection of Jesus be Defended as points of reason, fact, and logic?

Ask OJ.









Edit 'cause dangitall, that works best as a one liner, but I fear some ain't gonna get it, and they'll get onto me for it. I shall expound upon a request for expoundination.