Can the Resurrection of Jesus be Defended

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Tired of the Nonsense
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Can the Resurrection of Jesus be Defended

Post #1

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

Tired of the Nonsense wrote: There are no (Christians present) in actual point of fact. None that will support the story of the death and resurrection of Jesus as a point of "logic, reason and critical thinking." Unless there happens to be a Christian newbe present that I am unaware of who wishes to tackle the job. None of the Christian regulars here will defend the story of the resurrection beyond a "The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it," defense.
SelectThis! wrote:
Not so. None is all. I would defend it gladly. Logic and reason reveals what is most evident and what the Bible reveals is absolutely most evident. Start the thread up if you dare. Bring your best arguments.

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Post #151

Post by historia »

SelectThis! wrote:
historia wrote:
SelectThis! wrote:
The Shem Tob Matthew is in Hebrew and predates the translations.
I assume you mean the 14th Century Hebrew translation of the Gospel of Matthew. What do you mean that it "predates the translations"?
All manuscripts are copies, but the Shem Tov was a copy from an earlier Hebrew copy using YHWH instead of a substitute. This is a strong clue that the use of the tetragrammaton was due to the original copy it came from rather than the other languages we have come to know as the origin of the document.
Okay. But what does that show exactly? That the Gospel of Matthew was originally written in Hebrew? Why would the use of the tetragrammaton in a 14th Century Hebrew translation of Matthew give us any clues as to the gospel's original language?

Let's cut to the chase here: The Shem Tov Matthew has been studied by a number of scholars. William Petersen of Penn State has shown conclusively that this Hebrew translation is ultimately dependent on a Latin version of Matthew that dates no earlier than 1100 AD. Other scholars, including William Horbury of Cambridge, have shown influences of the Toledoth Jeshu on the text.

Even George Howard, the University of Georgia Hebraist who (tentatively) proposed in the late 1980s that Shem Tov may reflect an ancient Hebrew version of Matthew, has since backed away from those claims. I'm not sure where you are getting your information, but it no doubt relies on Howard's early (erroneous) analysis.

In other words, this is a thoroughly Medieval text. It tells us nothing about the original language of the Gospel of Matthew. Let's now put it aside.

There are other copies of Hebrew Matthews as well.
Yes, but they are all translations into Hebrew from earlier Greek and Latin texts. Again, this tells us nothing about the original language of Matthew.

My comments were to show that we have more evidence for a Hebrew origin of the language and a much older writing of the document itself.
I'm afraid your comments didn't quite show that, as they reference a medieval manuscript that has nothing to do with the question at hand.

There are some interesting (albeit somewhat confused) comments among the Early Church Fathers that the apostle Matthew originally wrote a gospel in Hebrew. The Gospel of Matthew that we posses today, however, was clearly and unquestionably written in Greek, as it relies on texts (Mark and Q) that were themselves written in Greek.

It matters because the original assertion that the gospels did not originate early in the first century is an assumption.
I don't believe anyone here claimed that "the gospels" did not originate in the first century. I certainly believe that they did, although not "early" (Jesus wasn't crucified until about 30 AD after all), but more likely "late" in the first century.

I made the observation that scholars date the Gospel of the Hebrews -- a Jewish Christian text apparently unrelated to the canonical Gospel of Matthew -- to the early 2nd Century. That is based on citations in the Early Church Fathers, not "assumptions."

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Post #152

Post by Mithrae »

Tired of the Nonsense wrote:Your tenacious insistence on holding on to the idea of a Roman guard is an excellent example of the power and strength of both your lifetime of religious indoctrination and Christian mythology in action. . . . .


You would like to move on, but you don't want to give an inch in the process. Because you have always assumed that the commonly portrayed Christian mythological story of the tomb being guarded by Roman soldiers is true and you would prefer not to give it up. The more you fight for it however, the more it exposes to one and all the fact the that your religious views are based on groundless assumptions and unfounded assertions. And so I have been content to be patient and have allowed you to make my case for me. I am now content that I have fully established my point. But continue on if you wish. It's your look of desperation and you can do as you want.
Is this why you asked me to "go and find your OWN Christian to play with, and stay out of my discussions"? So you can claim other people's opinions as being against what 'your' Christian is saying and hope no-one will notice your duplicity?

The priests requested security of the tomb from Pilate.
The guards feared punishment for failure from Pilate.

Your ongoing ad hominems against Aglassdarkly, your insinuations about his family and his 'indoctrination,' are frankly demeaning to you more than anything else. Matthew saw a loophole in Mark's story so he closed it: According to Matthew, the priests ensured that the body was not taken from the tomb by the disciples. Once again, you're bending over backwards trying to suggest that they surely didn't actually bother looking into the tomb - what a foolish idea that would've been! - and to do that you have to insist that the guards weren't Roman, that Matthew intended for them to be Jewish. But it's obvious that he did not. Why would he? Because it would be implausible? :lol:

Whether you're imputing extreme stupidity to Matthew in subtly conveying to his readers that the priests had Jewish guards and didn't even bother checking the body was still there, or whether you're imputing extreme stupidity to the story's priests themselves in not getting someone (anyone!) to check, your theory again strays into the far green fields of conspiracy-theory land. If the story were fact, the priests almost certainly could not have been that stupid. If the story were fiction, Matthew himself surely wasn't that stupid (nor so reserved in his story-telling!). Matthew doesn't explicitly say that they checked inside the tomb on the Saturday, but he does explicitly say that Joseph left the body there on the Friday and wrote the whole story to explicitly close any body-moving loopholes.

It's not a careful logical reading of the text which discovers that he failed miserably: It's a very selective and improbable reading which somehow manages to impute such ineptitude to either the author or his characters :roll:



For your... ahem... interpretation to work we must suppose:
> That Joseph/the disciples who'd been given custody of the body by Pilate were still paranoid of the priests' interference, but instead of moving the body 20 minutes down the road to prepare and hide over the Sabbath they moved the body to a nearby unused tomb, opened it and spent a few hours preparing it there before closing it and moving it 20 minutes down the road

> That Jesus' own mother did not know it was somewhere other than that tomb when she went their Sunday morning (unlikely), or that Mark and Matthew were writing about some different Mary with sons named James and Josephs (very unlikely)

> And if we take Matthew's story of the guard seriously, that they were Jewish soldiers (possible, but not the obvious way of reading it) and that the priests didn't bother finding anyone else to check the body was actually in the tomb they were going to such lengths to guard (again improbable)

The argument "They might've lied, and corpses just don't come back to life dude" is more reasonable, and much simpler than all of that ;)

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Re: Can the Resurrection of Jesus be Defended

Post #153

Post by Filthy Tugboat »

SelectThis! wrote: [Replying to post 117 by Filthy Tugboat]
Why should anyone bother responding to your evidence. Even if it is all true, it still has no bearing on the topic. I have asked four times now. Provide a concise argument that shows how your "facts," if true, support the conclusion that a man named Jesus resurrected from the dead. Four times. And you are yet to comply. Which leaves me the opinion that your "facts" simply do not relate to the topic at hand.

Given your "facts" are off topic, nobody needs to acknowledge them. Nobody needs to evaluate them. They can be safely ignored because even if they are true, it doesn't mean anything other than that, they are true. Jesus still didn't resurrect from the dead.

So here's a fifth challenge. Provide a concise argument that shows how your evidence and "facts" support the conclusion that a man named Jesus resurrected from the dead. Emphasis on the word concise. Do it in list format, just title the premises and the conclusion, you can further explain the premises and the conclusion after you're provided the dot point version of the argument. I just want something, as yet you've not been able or bothered to show how what you say relates to the OP.
Premise and Conclusion - I followed the rules and revealed what is most evident, one rule at a time. You made assumptions based on breaking the rules.

The argument against Jesus raising from the dead rests on assumptions and misplaced concreteness. I can make this claim since you are using a reasoning framework that has no foundation from particularization and context. Let's use the seven rules to see which of our versions make the cut. If you use the word of God to make assumptions on your own reasoning, you need to use the WHOLE word. See rule 7....

...That is as concise as it gets. Truth is not simple. Faith does not make things easy, it makes them possible. Again, evidence.
Ok, clearly you don't understand what an argument that consists of premises & conclusions means, or the word "concise" for that matter. I'll get you started.

1. The word has power.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6. Jesus resurrected from the dead.

Please fill in the gaps (adding or subtracting premises as you see fit). If the Bible has all of the prophetic powers you say it does, how does that support the claim that Jesus resurrected from the dead? I'm willing to grant for the purpose of this argument that The Bible correctly prophesized all of the events you think it does except the one prophecy regarding the resurrection(assuming there was such a prophecy). How does this work as evidence that Jesus was resurrected from the grave?

Just to be clear, I don't care what support the premises have at the moment, we can get to that later. I just want to see the abbreviated argument, the titles of your supporting evidence. That's all. No paragraphs. Just a list.
Religion feels to me a little like a Nigerian Prince scam. The "offer" is illegitimate, the "request" is unreasonable and the source is dubious, in fact, Nigeria doesn't even have a royal family.

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Post #154

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

historia wrote:
As I understand it, the majority scholarly opinion on the Gospel of the Hebrews is that it was likely an early or mid-second century work originally written in Greek. It was almost certainly not written by the apostle Matthew.

http://hebrewgospel.com/Gospel%20of%20Hebrews.php
Matthews Hebrew Gospel and the Gospel of the Hebrews

The historical literary evidence shows that the Gospel of the Hebrews was a middle second century document written in Aramaic based on the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew and filled with additions, deletions, and changes to the text to reflect Jewish and Gnostic beliefs. It was probably created by the Ebionites, a Jewish Gnostic sect.

The Gospel of the Hebrews was quoted by several church fathers, but was not well-known among the churches and was never accepted as the authentic Hebrew Gospel of Matthew or equal in authority to the four New Testament Gospels because of its late date and all its corruptions.

This article explores the historical literary evidence for the nature of the Gospel of the Hebrews and its relation to the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew.

Note: There has been much scholarly speculation about the Gospel to the Hebrews and a wide variety of opinion.

The evidence for the Gospel of the Hebrews or the Gospel According to the Hebrews is not like the evidence for the Gospel of Thomas or the Gospel of Peter. Those gospels were found intact, but the Gospel According to the Hebrews is found only in quotes from various church fathers. The quotes are often very brief with little context given and prefaced by or followed by brief statements about the gospel itself. It has also been associated with two groups, the Nazareans (also spelled Nazarenes) who attempted to combine Judaism and orthodox Christianity and the Ebionites who attempted to combine Judaism and Gnostic Christianity.

This has caused much speculation among scholars about this gospel with little consensus. There are basically three views regarding Jewish Christian gospels. The first and older one is that there was one Jewish Christian Gospel, which is the Gospel of the Hebrews used by the Nazareans and the Ebionites. The second view is that there were two Jewish Christian gospels, one used by the Nazareans and one used by the Ebionites. The third view is that there were three Jewish Christian gospels, one used by the Nazareans, one used by the Ebionites, and the Gospel of the Hebrews.

The author of this article takes a view similar to the first and older view that there was one Gospel of the Hebrews, which was most probably created by the Ebionites and possibly used by the Nazareans later in their history. This proposition is based primarily on the evidence of Epiphanius with corroborating testimony from Clement, Origen, and Jerome.

Although this view is not popular among present scholars, the other two views are based on identifying passages which various church fathers state are from the Gospel of the Hebrews and identifying them as coming not from the Gospel of the Hebrews, but coming from a supposed Gospel of the Nazareans or Gospel of the Ebionites. The author finds this difficult to accept. The testimony of the church fathers concerning the source of a quote should not be set aside unless there is a seriously strong reason to do so. The authors view, which is the traditional view, is the only view based on the actual testimony of the church fathers as to its origin. That testimony combined with the consistent picture that emerges from the evidence of a Jewish Gnostic document matching the Ebionites belief system forms a solid historical basis for this view.

The literary evidence presented below will focus on the testimony of Epiphanius, a church father who quoted extensively from the Gospel of the Ebionites, whom he says they called the Hebrew Gospel or the Gospel of the Hebrews.

This article will also focus on the quotes from Epiphanius and the other church fathers that clearly name or refer to the Gospel of the Hebrews.

Unless otherwise noted, all quotations except Epiphanius are from The Early Church Fathers, ed. Philip Schaff, William B. Eerdmans Publishing, Reprint 2001 at CCEL Internet Library

Unless otherwise noted, Epiphanius quotes are from The Panarion of Epiphanius of Salamis, Tr. Frank Williams, BRILL, Boston, Mass. 1987

For a list of the early church fathers, who they were and when they lived, mentioned in this article, click here.

The Problem of the Jewish-Christian Gospel(s)
Philipp Vielhauer and Georg Strecker write about the tremendous difficulties faced by scholars in understanding the patristic evidence for the Jewish-Christian Gospels,
In the second edition of this work H. Waitz rightly described the problem of the Jewish-Christian Gospels as one of the most difficult which the apocryphal literature presents, difficult because of the scantiness and indefiniteness of the patristic testimonies, difficult also because the results of scientific investigation are often self-contradictory. There are preserved, mostly as citations in the Church Fathers, only small fragments from which conclusions as to the character of the whole book are difficult to draw, and also accounts which are in themselves often very vague and in their entirety make possible a whole kaleidoscope of interpretations.1

Johann Michaelis mentions the reason for the scarcity of information about this gospel. He states,
Very few ecclesiastical writers have taken notice of this Gospel at which we have no reason to be surprised as few of them understood Hebrew, and no translation of it had been made before that of Jerome. Besides, the copies of it were very scarce even in Palestine, for Jerome mentions it as an unusual book, which he found in the library of Caesarea. However its name and character were not unknown; though it is difficult to determine, what the majority of Christians in the three first centuries thought of it, because Eusebius has expressed himself in ambiguous terms. In the fifth century most persons believed it to be the original of St. Matthew's Gospel: but whether they knew that it was interpolated, and distinguished the genuine text from its additions, we are not informed.2

There is one statement that has scholarly consensus, which is that the Gospel of the Hebrews was NOT the original Hebrew Gospel of Matthew in a pure form. However, many some scholars agree that it is likely a severely corrupted version of that text as Epiphanius so testifies.

M.R. James writes about the Gospel of the Hebrews,
What may be regarded as established is that it existed in either Hebrew or Aramaic, and was used by a Jewish-Christian sect who were known as Nazareans (Nazarenes), and that it resembled our Matthew closely enough to have been regarded as the original Hebrew of that gospel. I believe, few if any, would now contend that it was that original.3

Johann Michaelis summarizes the views of some scholars toward the Gospel of the Hebrews,
We must likewise distinguish the Gospel of the Nazarenes in the state, in which it was known to the Fathers of the third and fourth centuries, from the original state of this Gospel: for in its original state it may have been the work of St. Matthew, and yet have been afterwards so interpolated and corrupted, as to be no longer the same Gospel.4

Even though there is no scholarly consensus, I believe that some simple facts about the Gospel can be presented which are based on the actual passages from the text quoted by the church father, Epiphanius, and other church fathers.

Epiphanius, the Bishop of Salamis

Epiphanius was the bishop (the church leader of the churches of a city) of Salamis, a city on the island of Cyprus. He lived between 310 and 403 A.D. He wrote a book in several volumes called the Panarion where he outlined some eighty heresies and heretical groups. Two of those groups were the Nazareans and the Ebionites.
Epiphanius was familiar with the Ebionites, their views, and the Gospel of the Hebrews, which he says they called their gospel. He quotes directly from the Gospel of the Hebrews. Epiphanius gives clear testimony to the nature of the Gospel of the Hebrews by the passages he quotes and the comments he makes. Other church fathers also give evidence of the Gospel of the Hebrews that is in agreement with Epiphanius testimony. The author has used Epiphanius testimony as a basis of the nature of the Gospel of the Hebrews believing it to be the clearest testimony to it.


The Nature of the Gospel of the Hebrews
1. The Gospel of the Hebrews was a severely corrupted version of Matthews Hebrew Gospel created by the Ebionites
According to Epiphanius, the Ebionites used a gospel in the Hebrew language, which they claimed was the Gospel of Matthew, which they referred to as the Gospel according to (or of) the Hebrews or the Hebrew Gospel, which was a severely mutilated version of the Gospel of Matthew in Hebrew.

The Ebionites were a Christian sect of the second century that held some Gnostic beliefs with a Jewish emphasis and a commitment to vegetarianism. The Gospel of Thomas reflects the same kind of views of this group.

1) The Ebionites used the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, but called it the Gospel of the Hebrews.
Epiphanius writes of the Ebionites and their use of the Gospel of the Hebrews and states,

Epiphanius 30.3.7
They too accept the Gospel according to Matthew. Like the Cerinthians and Merinthians, they too use it alone. They call it, According to the Hebrews, and it is true to say that only Matthew put the setting forth and the preaching of the Gospel into the New Testament in the Hebrew language and alphabet.

In this passage, Epiphanius tells us that the Ebionites used the Gospel of Matthew exclusively, but they called it by another name, the Gospel according to the Hebrews. Later he will reveal that they had changed it. He further tells us that it was written in the Hebrew language and alphabet. When the church fathers referred to the Hebrew language and alphabet they meant the Aramaic language, which was the language of the Jews in Israel at the time of Christ and the centuries that followed.

2) The Ebionites changed the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew into the Gospel of the Hebrews, a corrupted Matthew.
In another passage, Epiphanius relates that the Gospel of the Hebrews was not the pure Gospel of Matthew in Hebrew, but a severely changed and corrupted version of it. He states,

Epiphanius 30.13.2
In the Gospel that is in general use amongst them [Ebionites], which is called according to Matthew, which however is not whole (and) complete but forged and mutilated - they call it the Hebrew Gospel - it is reported (Quote from New Testament Apocrypha, Vol. 1 Gospels and Related Writings, Ed. Wilhelm Schneemelcher, Trans. R. McL. Wilson, Westminster John Knox Press 1990, 170)

In the first passage, Epiphanius writes that the Ebionites were using Matthews gospel, but they called it, The Gospel according to the Hebrews. In this passage he says that they had mutilated the gospel of Matthew and called it by a slightly different name, the Hebrew Gospel. They most likely referred to it by both names.

According to Epiphanius, the Gospel of the Hebrews was filled with additions, deletions, and changes to the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew to reflect the beliefs of the Ebionites, a Jewish Gnostic sect committed to vegetarianism. This will be evidenced in point 2. and 3. below.

3) Eusebius also states that the Ebionites used the Gospel of the Hebrews.
Eusebius describes the basic beliefs of the Ebionites and states that they used the Gospel of the Hebrews.

Eusebius, Church History, 3.27.1, 2, and 4
The evil demon, however, being unable to tear certain others from their allegiance to the Christ of God, yet found them susceptible in a different direction, and so brought them over to his own purposes. The ancients quite properly called these men Ebionites, because they held poor and mean opinions concerning Christ. For they considered him a plain and common man, who was justified only because of his superior virtue, and who was the fruit of the intercourse of a man with Mary. In their opinion the observance of the ceremonial law was altogether necessary, on the ground that they could not be saved by faith in Christ alone and by a corresponding lifeThese men, moreover, thought that it was necessary to reject all the epistles of the apostle, whom they called an apostate from the law; and they used only the so-called Gospel according to the Hebrews and made small account of the rest.

Summary:
Before the time of Jerome, the Gospel of the Hebrews is only associated with the Ebionites. At the time of Jerome, the Gospel of the Hebrews is associated with the Nazareans and the Ebionites.
2. The Gospel of the Hebrews reflected Gnostic doctrine including vegetarianism.
Epiphanius clearly indicates that the Ebionites mutilated the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew to reflect their Gnostic views.

1) The Ebionites removed the first two chapters of Matthews Gospel to eliminate the virgin birth.
The Ebionites believed that there was a difference between the human Jesus and the Christ spirit. They believed that Jesus was born as a human being to human parents, Joseph and Mary. Therefore, they did not believe in the virgin birth. They believed the Christ spirit descended in the form of a dove at his baptism and came into the human Jesus. These are Gnostic beliefs. Gnosticism was a heresy prevalent in the second century.

Epiphanius explains this in the following passage from the Panarion as he speaks of the Ebionites.

Epiphanius 30.14.4
This is because they mean that Jesus is really a man, as I said, but that Christ, who descended in the form of a dove, has entered him - as we have found already in other sects and been united with him. Christ himself is from God on high, but Jesus is the product of a man's seed and a woman.

Because of these beliefs, Epiphanius says in the following passages that they falsified Matthews genealogy by eliminating the first two chapters of Matthews Gospel and beginning with John the Baptist in chapter three.

Epiphanius 30.13.6
But their Gospel begins: It came to pass in the days of Herod, king of Judaea, in the high priesthood of Caiaphas, that a certain man, John by name, came baptizing with the baptism of repentance in the river Jordan, and he was said to be of the lineage of Aaron the priest, the son of Zacharias and Elisabeth; and all went out to him.

Epiphanius 30.14.3
But these people have something else in mind. They falsify the genealogical tables in Matthew, and start its opening as I said with the words, It came to pass in the days of Herod, king of Judaea, in the high priesthood of Caiaphas, that a certain man, John by name, came baptizing with the baptism of repentance in the river Jordan and so on.

2) The Ebionites made an addition to the baptism of Jesus to prove a Gnostic origin for Jesus.
In the following passage from the Gospel of the Hebrews, added to what the voice from heaven said are the words, I have this day begotten thee.

Epiphanius 30.13.7
And after saying a number of things, it adds, When the people had been baptised, Jesus came also and was baptised of John. And as he came up out of the water, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove, which descended and entered into him. And (there came) a voice saying, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. And again: This day have I begotten thee. And straightway a great light shone round about the place. Seeing this, it says, John said unto him, Who art thou, Lord? And again (there came) a voice from heaven, This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.

Klauck explains the Gnostic perspective, which this addition implies,
The dynamite in this version of the baptism narrative is the fact that the heavenly voice is not content to quote only the first half of the verse from Ps.2 ("You are My Son"), but employs a transitional formula to add the second half: "This day I have begotten you."

This edition, Today I have begotten you, makes possible an adoptionist or even a docetic interpretation of the baptismal scene. The former would say that it is only at his baptism that God adopts and publicly acclaims the man Jesus of Nazareth as his Son; the docetic reading would emphasize the fusion with the Spirit and say that it is only at his baptism that a heavenly spiritual being enters the man Jesus. It is obvious that the rigidly orthodox Epiphanius must reject this Christology as defective.5

Johann Michaelis agrees,
By none of the Evangelists are the words This day have I begotten thee said to have been uttered at the baptism of Christ. They are an interpolation in the Ebionite Gospel, and are derived from the false notion, which prevailed in the first century, that Christ was a mere man till the time of his baptism, and that he then became the Son of God, and filled with the Holy Ghost.6

3) The Ebionites changed the diet of John the Baptist to reflect their vegetarian views.
In his book, Is God a Vegetarian? Christianity, Vegetarianism, and Animal Rights, Richard Young, writes of the vegetarian views of the Ebionites and other Gnostic groups,

Gnostic groups of the first several centuries regularly forbade both marriage and meat eatingIronic as it may seem, the devaluing of animals by the Gnostics led to a very strict vegetarianism, whereas today the devaluing of animals leads to an unrestrained eating of meat. The early church responded by condemning Gnostic vegetarianism.7

Young later adds,
In addition, the early church fathers fought against a heretical form of vegetarianism that sprang from Gnostic dualism. The Gnostic belief that the physical realm was evil turned meat eating and marriage into works of the devil. Since the fathers believed the world was good, they could not condemn meat eating. The willingness to eat meat was for them a certification of orthodoxy.8

Epiphanius quoted from the Gospel of the Hebrews explaining that the Ebionites had changed the text of Matthews Gospel, which originally stated that John ate locusts, which violated their vegetarian beliefs. The locusts were deleted and the words manna as a cake in oil was added.

Epiphanius 30.13.4-5
And John came baptizing, and there went out unto him Pharisees and they were baptized, and all Jerusalem. And John had a garment of camel's hair and a girdle of skin about his loins, and his meat, it says, was wild honey, whose taste was the taste of manna, as a cake in oil. This, if you please, to turn the speech of the truth into falsehood, and substitute a cake in honey for locusts.

Commenting on this change, Hans-Josef Klauck writes,
An even more decisive reason for the replacement of the roasted locusts with honey cakes in the Gospel of the Ebionites was the strict vegetarianism of the Ebionites, who could not accept even the hint that John or Jesus ate meat9

4) The Ebionites also changed the words of Jesus concerning his role toward the O.T. sacrifices to reflect their vegetarian views.
Not only did the Gnostic vegetarian views of the Ebionites cause them to reject the eating of animal flesh, it also caused them to reject the sacrifice of animal flesh as was done in the Old Testament. That animal flesh could be acceptable to God for any reason was simply out of the question. Therefore, in their minds Jesus could not have come to fulfill the Mosaic Law and thus its sacrifices, having become the ultimate sacrifice for sin as the orthodox Christians taught. Rather he must have come to abolish animal sacrifices because they were wrong.

Epiphanius 30.16.4-5
But they [Ebionites] say that he [Christ] is not begotten of God the Father, but was created as one of the archangels, and that he is ruler of both angels and of all creatures of the Almighty; and he came and instructed us to abolish the sacrifices. As their so-called Gospel says, I came to abolish the sacrifices, and if ye cease not from sacrifice, wrath will not cease from you. These and certain similar things are their crafty devices.

Epiphanius adds further that their vegetarian views also resulted in a change in the text which reveals Jesus attitudes and actions toward the Passover lamb. In the text of Matthews Gospel Jesus instructs his disciples where to go to prepare the meal (involving the Passover Lamb) they will eat together. However, in the Gospel of the Hebrews, Jesus is shown rejecting the eating of the Passover lamb with his disciples because it is animal flesh. He questions why they would think he desires to eat meat (animal flesh) with them.

Epiphanius 30.22.4
But of their own will these people have lost sight of the consequence of the truth, and have altered the wording " which is evident to everyone from the sayings associated with it " and made the disciples say, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the Passover? And the Lord, if you please, says, Have I desired meat with desire, to eat this Passover with you?

This rejection by Jesus is in direct contradiction to Luke 22:15 where Jesus says, And he said to them, With desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.

Klauck comments on this passage,
Jesus has words at Lk.22:15 expanded to specify that the meat of the Paschal lamb is consumed at the Passover meal, and the negation of the entire sentence [by Jesus in the Gospel of the Hebrews] offers a strong argument against eating meat and in favor of vegetarianism.10

Clement of Alexandria " a Quote from the Gospel of the Hebrews Reflecting a Gnostic View of Salvation
The Gospel of the Hebrews contains an addition to Jesus words to describe the steps of the Gnostic view of salvation.

The very first quotes from the Gospel of the Hebrews come from Clement of Alexandria (c.150AD-215AD) and are filled with Gnostic terms and ideas. This is very significant and shows that from the very beginning of its creation the Gospel was Gnostic in some of its text.

The Gnostics taught that salvation was all about gaining a special knowledge about spiritual realities and it involved steps. These steps followed a sequence of discovery until one reached the goal, salvation rest.

Clement of Alexandria quoted the Gospel of the Hebrews as indicating some of these steps to greater knowledge of Gnosticism.

Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 2.9
So also in the Gospel to the Hebrews it is written, He that wonders shall reign, and he that has reigned shall rest.

Vielhauer and Strecker, in their book, NT Apocrypha evaluates this saying from the Gospel in terms of its Gnostic perspective. Our saying describes the steps of the revelation of salvation and of the way of salvation. This description is characteristic of the Hermetic gnosis, as Dibelius has pointed out; here also "to marvel" is found as a step and the rest as eschatological salvation.11

There is also an expanded version of this saying in the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas, which reads,

Gospel of Thomas, 2
Jesus said, Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the all. (Quote from The Nag Hammadi Library, James M. Robinson, ed., Revised Edition. HarperCollins, San Francisco, 1990)

A Coptic Discourse Attributed to Cyril " a Quote from the Gospel of the Hebrews Reflecting a Gnostic view of Christ and Mary.
Some Gnostics such as the Ebionites taught that the Holy Spirit was the mother of Jesus, the spirit being who embodied itself as Mary in order to come to earth and birth Jesus.

In a Coptic translation of a discourse ascribed to Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386AD), which probably did not reflect what Cyril actually wrote, but which definitely reflects a Gnostic view of the Holy Spirit and the human Jesus in the Gospel of the Hebrews.

Coptic Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386AD)
It is written in the Gospel of the Hebrews: When Christ wished to come upon the earth to men, the good Father summoned a mighty power in heaven, which was called Michael, and entrusted Christ to the care thereof. And the power came into the world and it was called Mary, and Christ was in her womb seven months. (From the Coptic translation of a discourse ascribed to Cyril of Jerusalem ed. E.A.W. Budge, Texts, Coptic p.60, English p. 637 quoted in the New Testament Apocrypha, Vol. 1 Gospels and Related Writings, Ed. Wilhelm Schneemelcher, Trans. R. McL. Wilson, Westminster John Knox Press 1990, 177)

Origen " a Quote from the Gospel of the Hebrews Reflecting a Gnostic view of the Holy Spirit
Origen quotes a passage from the Gospel of the Hebrews, which sets forth the Gnostic doctrine that the Holy Spirit was the mother of Jesus.

Origen, Commentary on John, 2.6
If any one should lend credence to the Gospel according to the Hebrews, where the Saviour Himself says, My mother, the Holy Spirit took me just now by one of my hairs and carried me off to the great Mount Tabor.

However, Origen attempts to interpret this passage in a way that reflects orthodox Christian doctrine rather than Gnostic doctrine by attempting to interpret the passage from the Gospel of Hebrews symbolically. He uses the passage from the Gospel of Matthew where Jesus says that the one who does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother. In spite of Origens attempt, the passage cannot be reconciled with orthodox Christian doctrine. It clearly reflects Gnostic doctrine.

A parallel example of this doctrine can be seen in a passage from the Gnostic Gospel of Philip. It says,
Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit? They are in error. They do not know what they are saying. When did a woman ever conceive by a woman? Mary is the virgin whom no power defiled. She is a great anathema to the Hebrews, who are the apostles and the apostolic men. This virgin whom no power defiled (Quote from The Nag Hammadi Library, James M. Robinson, ed., Revised Edition, HarperCollins, San Francisco, 1990)

In speaking of this passage in Origen, Vielhauer and Stricker state,
This Jewish Christianity however contains syncretistic-gnostic elements. The account of the carrying away of Jesus shows a strong mythological trait, the Holy Ghost being designated the mother of Jesusthe Coptic Cyril fragment belongs to the Gospel of the Hebrews, then the Holy Spirit is to be identified with the mighty power in heaven and Mary to be understood as the incarnation of the heavenly power. Not merely for Jesus but also for his mother the pre-existence and incarnation myth may have been assumed. That the mighty power in heaven was called Michael is not surprising, in view of his importance in Egyptian magical texts and in the Pistis Sophia [a Gnostic text] and in the last analysis is no decisive objection to the identification of the mighty power with the Holy Spirit. In the Coptic Epistle of James of the Cod. Jung, Jesus describes himself as son of the Holy Spirit.12

The passage above is quoted by Origen twice and Jerome three times. One of Jeromes quotes comes in his commentary on Isaiah. In this quote, Jerome mentions the Gospel of the Hebrews, gives this exact quote Origen gave, and, like Origen, attempts to explain its teaching symbolically.

Jerome " a Quote from the Gospel of the Hebrews Reflecting a Gnostic view of the Holy Spirit
Jerome, Commentary on Isaiah, 11. 9
In the Gospel of the Hebrews that the Nazarenes read it says, Just now my mother, the Holy Spirit, took me. Now no one should be offended by this, because spirit in Hebrew is feminine, while in our language [Latin] it is masculine and in Greek it is neuter. In divinity, however, there is no gender.

This quote demonstrates that Origen (c.185"254 AD) and Jerome (c.342-.420 AD) both used the same Gospel of the Hebrews which contained Gnostic doctrine. In fact, in the passage below, Jerome himself says that Origen used the Gospel of the Hebrews which he was quoting.

Jerome, Illustrious Men 2
The Gospel also which is called the Gospel according to the Hebrews, and which I have recently translated into Greek and Latin and which also Origen often makes use of, after the account of the resurrection of the Saviour

Jerome mentions another addition to the text of Matthews gospel where the Holy Spirit is described as the mother of Jesus.

Jerome, Commentary on Isaiah, 4 (on Isa. 11:2)
According to the Gospel written in the Hebrew speech, which the Nazareans read, the whole fount of the Holy Spirit shall descend upon him ... Further in the Gospel which we have just mentioned we find the following written: And it came to pass when the Lord was come up out of the water, the whole fount of the Holy Spirit descended upon him and rested on him and said to him: My Son, in all the prophets was I waiting for thee that thou shouldest come and I might rest in thee. For thou art my rest; thou art my first-begotten Son that reignest for ever. (Quote from New Testament Apocrypha, Vol. 1 Gospels and Related Writings, Ed. Wilhelm Schneemelcher, Trans. R. McL. Wilson, Westminster John Knox Press 1990, 177)

Leonard Swidler, writes in his book, Biblical Affirmations of Women, concerning this reference to the Holy Spirit as mother,
Another motherly image of the Holy Spirit is found in the apocryphal Gospel to the Hebrews, written around 150AD, And it came to pass when the Lord [Jesus at his baptism in the Jordan River] came up out of the water, the whole fount of the Holy Spirit descended upon him and rested on him and said to him, My sonthou art my first-begotten Son that reignest for ever. If there be any doubt that the Holy Spirit was depicted in the Gospel of the Hebrews as Jesus mother, the following quotation will lay it to rest. Even so did my mother, the Holy Spirit, take me by one of my hairs and carry me away onto the great mountain Tabor.13

3. The Gospel of the Hebrews reflected a Jewish emphasis.
Epiphanius indicates that the Ebionites mutilated the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew to reflect their Jewish emphasis.

1) The Ebionites changed the order in Matthews Gospel giving prominence to the Pharisees, an important sect of leaders in Israel.
Epiphanius quotes a passage where the order of the text has been changed to give more prominence to the Pharisees, a very important sect of leaders in Israel.

Matthews Greek Gospel text reads, In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea and saying, Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at handAnd the same John had his garment of camel's hair and a leather belt around his waist and his food was locusts and wild honey. Then, Jerusalem went out to him, and all Judea and all the region around the Jordan. And they were being baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said to them, Oh generation of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Epiphanius quotes the parallel passage in the Gospel of the Hebrews as follows:

Epiphanius 30.13.4
And John came baptizing, and there went out unto him Pharisees and they were baptised, and all Jerusalem. And John had a garment of camel's hair and a girdle of skin about his loins, and his meat, it says, was wild honey, whose taste was the taste of manna, as a cake in oil.

In Matthews Greek text, the Pharisees are mentioned after all the people in the area and in the context of a rebuke. In the Gospel of the Hebrews the Pharisees are mentioned first demonstrating their desire to be baptized before all the people.

Johann Michaelis explains this Jewish perspective on the prominence of the Pharisees,
Here the Pharisees are mentioned first, and then the inhabitants of Jerusalem in general, as if the Pharisees had set the example: whereas in our Gospels the Pharisees are mentioned last, which shows that they only followed the multitude. If Epiphanius has adhered closely to his original, this inversion in the Gospel of the Ebionites may have been owing to their respect for the Pharisees.14

Jerome " a Quote from the Gospel of the Hebrews Giving James, a greatly admired Jewish-Christian Leader, Prominence
Jerome mentions a story added to the text of Matthews Gospel that gives prominence to James, the brother of the Lord, a highly esteemed leader by Jewish-Christians.

Jerome Lives Illustrious Men, 2
The Gospel also which is called the Gospel according to the Hebrews, and which I have recently translated into Greek and Latin and which also Origen often makes use of, after the account of the resurrection of the Saviour says, but the Lord, after he had given his grave clothes to the servant of the priest, appeared to James (for James had sworn that he would not eat bread from that hour in which he drank the cup of the Lord until he should see him rising again from among those that sleep) and again, a little later, it says Bring a table and bread, said the Lord. And immediately it is added, He brought bread and blessed and brake and gave to James the Just and said to him, my brother eat thy bread, for the son of man is risen from among those that sleep.

Grant, Freedman, and Scheodel, point out the Jewish emphasis in this story,
And the concern of this gospel for Jewish Christian tradition and authority is reflected in its story of the resurrection. Here it is James, the Lords brother who is the earliest witness - not Peter. In this story, the author of Hebrews has managed to include several highly biased notions. First, he has made James the Just (a second century title for the Lords brother) a guest at the Lords Supper. Second, he has made James take an oath there like that which Jesus himself took. Third, he has introduced the high priests slave (Jn.18:10) into the resurrection story, though his reason for doing so is not clear. Fourth, Jesus appears in a Eucharistic setting strongly reminiscent of Luke 24:30, though James, not Cleopas and another is the witness to it. In general, the sole purpose of this story is to strengthen the claims of the Church of Jerusalem at the expense of the gentile Christians.15

Klauck adds his comments to this theme of the importance of James,
These two logia form a good introduction to a narrative in which James, the Lord's brother (not the Apostle James from the circle of the twelve), plays a key role alongside Jesus. The scene takes place after Easter, but also refers back to the pre-Easter situation of the Last SupperThe central concern of the text is to elaborate 1 Cor.15:7 by attributing the first appearance of the risen Lord to his brother James, thus legitimating him as head of the post-Easter community. James was the great hero of Jewish Christianity, where he was called "the just" (as in this text). So popular was this tradition among Jewish Christians that we have six attestations of itThe narrative retrospect intends to assert that James, the Lord's brother, was present at the last supper where he drank from the chalice of the LordJames takes a vow, analogous to Jesus' vow at Mk.14:24, not to read again unless Jesus rises from the dead. Here too, an apologetic argument can be discerned: if James - the just man - deviates from his vow, the only reason can be that the resurrection has indeed taken place and the risen Lord has encouraged his brother to resume eating.16

Vielhauer and Strecker also bring out the significance of this emphasis on James,
The Jewish-Christian character of the Gospel of the Hebrews is indicated not merely by the title but above all by the emphasis on James the brother of the Lord, who according to the reports of the NT (Gal. 2; Acts 15; 21:18f.) and of Hegesippus (Eusebius, H.E. 1123.4-18) was the champion of a strict Jewish Christianity and leader of the early Jerusalem Church. Since contrary to the historical facts he is distinguished as a participant of Jesus' last supper and as the first witness and consequently the most important guarantor of the resurrection, it is clear that for the Gospel of the Hebrews he is the highest authority in the circle of Jesus' acquaintances. This trait also has a striking parallel in the Coptic Gospel of Thomas.17

The Gospel of Thomas, another Gnostic-Jewish gospel also gives prominence to James.
Gospel of Thomas 12
The disciples said to Jesus, We know that you will depart from us. Who is to be our leader? Jesus said to them, Wherever you are, you are to go to James the righteous, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being. (Quote from The Nag Hammadi Library, James M. Robinson, ed., The Nag Hammadi Library, Revised Edition, HarperCollins, San Francisco, 1990.)



The Errors in the Gospel of the Hebrews
The Gospel of the Hebrews has two major errors in it, which are not in Matthews Gospel or the other New Testament Gospels.

1. A Historical Error Concerning the Time of John the Baptists Ministry
The Gospel of the Hebrews states that John the Baptist began his ministry at the time of King Herod of Judea who actually was king at the birth of Christ some thirty years earlier not during the time of John the Baptists ministry. This demonstrates that the Gospel of the Hebrews must have been written by an author(s) far removed from the actual time of the events. A contemporary author to the events would never have made such a serious historical mistake.

The following passage from the Gospel of Hebrews which Epiphanius quotes contains this historical error which is not in Matthews Greek Gospel.

Epiphanius 30.13.6
But their Gospel begins: It came to pass in the days of Herod, king of Judaea, in the high priesthood of Caiaphas, that a certain man, John by name, came baptizing with the baptism of repentance in the river Jordan, and he was said to be of the lineage of Aaron the priest, the son of Zacharias and Elisabeth; and all went out to him.

Johann Michaelis points out this historical error,
This strange historical blunder, which makes John the Baptist preach in the time of Herod king of Judaea, who had been dead nearly thirty years, when John began to preach, is a very sufficient proof that St. Matthew was not the author of this passage: for no man who was a contemporary with John could have imagined that Herod was then king of Judaea.18

This demonstrates that the author(s) of Gospel of the Hebrews was far removed from the time of the actual events of Jesus and the apostles.

2. A Chronological Error Concerning the Calling of Matthew by Jesus
The Gospel of the Hebrews states that Matthew appeared with Jesus before he was called as an apostle by Jesus as he is in the other gospels.

This chronological error appears in the following passage from the Gospel of the Hebrews given by Epiphanius.

Epiphanius 30.13.2-3
Now in what they call a Gospel according to Matthew, though it is not entirely complete, but is corrupt and mutilated - and they call this thing Hebrew! - the following passage occurs, There was a certain man named Jesus, and he was about thirty years of age, who chose us. And coming to Capernaum, he entered the house of Simon surnamed Peter, and opened his mouth and said, Passing by the Sea of Tiberias I chose John and James, the sons of Zebedee, and Simon and Andrew and [Philip and Bartholomew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Thomas], Thaddeus, Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot. Thee likewise Matthew, seated at the receipt of custom, did I call, and thou dist follow me. I will, then. That ye be twelve apostles as a testimony to Israel.

Johann Michaelis comments on this error,
This history is not the same as that which is given Matt. 8:14 where it is related that Jesus went into the house of Peter, but no mention is made of any speech to the Apostles. It is one of the additions to this Gospel, and might possibly be true, if St. Matthew's name had not been mentioned, who was not called to be an apostle, till after this visit in the house of Peter.19

3. An Error of Contradiction Concerning James the Just and the Last Supper
Jerome, as seen in an earlier point, quotes a passage from the Gospel of the Hebrews, which portrays James the Just, the brother of the Lord, at the Last Supper. However, Matthew and the other gospels clearly indicate that only the twelve were at the Last Supper and James the brother of the Lord, was not one of the twelve. This contradicts what the canonical gospels clearly state, including Greek Matthew. It was inserted to give James, the brother of the Lord, greater prominence. It also demonstrates that the Gospel of the Hebrews was written in the second century since the title James the Just was not used until then.

Jerome Lives Illustrious Men, 2
The Gospel also which is called the Gospel according to the Hebrews, and which I have recently translated into Greek and Latin and which also Origen often makes use of, after the account of the resurrection of the Saviour says, but the Lord, after he had given his grave clothes to the servant of the priest, appeared to James (for James had sworn that he would not eat bread from that hour in which he drank the cup of the Lord until he should see him rising again from among those that sleep) and again, a little later, it says Bring a table and bread, said the Lord. And immediately it is added, He brought bread and blessed and brake and gave to James the Just and said to him, my brother eat thy bread, for the son of man is risen from among those that sleep.

Grant, Freedman, and Scheodel, point out this error,
In this story, the author of Hebrews has managed to include several highly biased notions. First, he has made James the Just (a second century title for the Lords brother) a guest at the Lords Supper.20



The Language of the Gospel of the Hebrews
1. Epiphanius indicates that the Gospel of the Hebrews used by the Ebionites was in the Hebrew (Aramaic) language.
Epiphanius 30.3.7
They too accept the Gospel according to Matthew. Like the Cerinthians and Merinthians, they too use it alone. They call it, According to the Hebrews, and it is true to say that only Matthew put the setting forth and the preaching of the Gospel into the New Testament in the Hebrew language and alphabet.

The statement about Matthews writing in Hebrew implies that the Gospel of Matthew which the Ebionites called According to the Hebrews was written in Hebrew (Aramaic).

2. Jerome said that the Gospel of the Hebrews which was read by the Nazareans and Ebionites was in Hebrew which he had translated into Greek and Latin.
1) In his Dialogue Against Pelagius, Jerome stated that the Gospel according to the Hebrews was written in the Chaldean and Syriac language, but written in Hebrew letters.
The Aramaic language (Syro-Chaldaic) could be written in either Aramaic letters or Hebrew letters.

Jerome Dialogue against Pelagius, 3.2
In the Gospel according to the Hebrews, which is written in the Chaldee and Syriac language, but in Hebrew characters, and is used by the Nazarenes to this day

2) In his commentary on Matthew, Jerome stated that he translated the Gospel according to the Hebrews into Greek and Latin from the Hebrew (Aramaic).
Jerome On Matt. 12.13
In the Gospel which the Nazarenes and Ebionites use (which I have lately translated into Greek from the Hebrew, and which is called by many (or most) people the original of Matthew)
(Quote from M.R. James, The Apocryphal New Testament, The Apocryphile Press, 2004, 4-5)

3) In his commentary on Matthew, Jerome also demonstrates that the Gospel of the Hebrews was written in Hebrew (Aramaic) by giving a Hebrew word (mahar) that occurs in its text.
The Greek Matthew had epiousion for which Jerome translates essential to existence. However, the Gospel of the Hebrews had the Hebrew word mahar which means of tomorrow.

Jerome Commentary on Matthew 6:11
In the so-called Gospel according to the Hebrews instead of essential to existence I found mahar which means of tomorrow so that the sense is: Our bread of tomorrow - that is, of the future - give us this day."
(Quote from New Testament Apocrypha, Vol. 1 Gospels and Related Writings, Ed. Wilhelm Schneemelcher, Trans. R. McL. Wilson, Westminster John Knox Press 1990, 160)



The Date of the Gospel of the Hebrews
The Gospel of the Hebrews was most likely written in the middle to late second century. The earliest references to the Gospel of the Hebrews come from the latter part of the second century. There is no mention of it before that time.

Ron Cameron summarizes the evidence for the dating the Gospel of the Hebrews when he writes,
Hegesippus (late in the second century) and Eusebius (early in the fourth century) attest to the existence of this gospel, but do not quote from it. Fragments are preserved in the writings of Clement of Alexandria (late in the second century), Origen (early in the third century), and Cyril (Bishop of Jerusalem, ca. 350 C.E.). Jerome (ca. 400 C.E.) also preserves several fragments, all of which he probably reproduced from the writings of Origen.21

1. The first mention of the Gospel of the Hebrews does not come before the late second century.
Eusebius states that Hegesippus who wrote c.185 AD quoted from the Gospel of the Hebrews.

Eusebius Church History 4.22
He [Hegisippus] wrote much else, some of which I have already quoted, and cites the Gospel of the Hebrews, the Syriac Gospel, and especially works of Hebrew language and oral tradition, showing that he was a Hebrew convert. (Quote from Eusebius, Church History, tr. Paul L. Maier, Kregel Publications, 1999, 158)

Clement of Alexandria (c.150AD-215AD) quotes from the Gospel of the Hebrews.

Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 2.9
So also in the Gospel to the Hebrews it is written, He that wonders shall reign, and he that has reigned shall rest.

2. The Ebionites whom Epiphanius says mutilated the Gospel of Matthew and called it the Gospel According to the Hebrews emerged in the late second century as a heretical group.
Epiphanius indicated that the Ebionites forged and mutilated the Gospel of Matthew (as seen earlier) and called it the Gospel of the Hebrews. This coincides with the first mention of the Ebionites which was by Irenaeus in the late second century.

Irenaeus, who wrote in the latter part of the second century, is the first writer to mention the Ebionites. Their origin coincides in time with the origin of the Gospel of the Hebrews, which is consistent with the proposition that the Ebionites created the Gospel of the Hebrews.

Irenaeus, however, does not mention the Gospel of the Hebrews when he refers to the Ebionites. He says that they used the Gospel of Matthew.

Irenaeus 1.26.2
Those who are called Ebionites agree that the world was made by God; but their opinions with respect to the Lord are similar to those of Cerinthus and Carpocrates. They use the Gospel according to Matthew only, and repudiate the Apostle Paul, maintaining that he was an apostate from the law. As to the prophetical writings, they endeavour to expound them in a somewhat singular manner: they practise circumcision, persevere in the observance of those customs which are enjoined by the law, and are so Judaic in their style of life, that they even adore Jerusalem as if it were the house of God.

Irenaeus 3.11.7
For the Ebionites, who use Matthews Gospel are confuted out of this very same, making false suppositions with regard to the Lord.

This is evidence of Epiphanius assertion that the Ebionites mutilated the Gospel of Matthew and referred to it as the Gospel According to the Hebrews.

Epiphanius tells us of two major groups claiming a Jewish-Christian gospel, the Nazareans and the Ebionites. The Nazareans were not Gnostic. They tried to combine the Jewish law with the Christian gospel. The Ebionites were a far more radical group that came out of the Nazareans. They combined the Jewish law, the Christian gospel, and Gnosticism.

Epiphanius 30.1.1
Following these [Nazareans] and holding the same views, Ebion, the Ebionites founder, emerged in his turn - a monstrosity with many shapes, who practically formed the snake-like shape of the mythical many headed hydra in himself. He was of the Nazorean's school, but preached and taught differently from them.

Epiphanius 30.2.1
For Ebion was contemporary with the Nazoraeans, since he was their ally, was derived from them.

The Ebionites and Nazareans most likely originally used the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew earlier in their history around middle of the second century, then the Ebionites began changing it to coincide with their Jewish Gnostic views. Irenaeus who had not seen their Gospel assumed that the Ebionites used the pure form of the Gospel of Matthew because this is what they originally did. Even after they had corrupted it, they still claimed it was the Gospel of Matthew, which they also referred to as the Gospel of the Hebrews. Irenaeus lived as the Gospel of the Hebrews first emerged and was probably not familiar with it. Eventually, by the time of Jerome, the Nazareans had adopted the Gospel of the Hebrews as well.

Philip Schaff explains why Irenaeus may not have mentioned the use of the Gospel of the Hebrews by the Ebionites and how that fits into the history of the Gospel of the Hebrews when he writes,
Eusebius is the first to tell us that the Ebionites used the Gospel according to the Hebrews. Irenaeus says that they used the Gospel of Matthew, and the fact that he mentions no difference between it and the canonical Matthew shows that, so far as he knew, they were the same. But according to Eusebius, Jerome, and Epiphanius the Gospel according to the Hebrews was used by the Ebionites, andthis Gospel cannot have been identical with the canonical Matthew. Either, therefore, the Gospel used by the Ebionites in the time of Irenaeus, and called by him simply the Gospel of Matthew, was something different from the canonical Matthew, or else the Ebionites had given up the Gospel of Matthew for another and a different gospel...

The former is much more probable, and the difficulty may be most simply explained by supposing that the Gospel according to the Hebrews is identical with the so-called Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, or at least that it passed among the earliest Jewish Christians under Matthews name, and that Irenaeus, who was not personally acquainted with the sect, simply hearing that they used a Gospel of Matthew, naturally supposed it to be identical with the canonical Gospel. In the time of Jerome a Hebrew Gospel according to the Hebrews was used by the Nazarenes and Ebionites as the Gospel of Matthew. Jerome refrains from expressing his own judgment as to its authorship, but that he did not consider it in its existing form identical with the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew is clear from his words in de vir. ill. [Illustrious Men] chap. 3, taken in connection with the fact that he himself translated it into Greek and Latin, as he states in chap. 2...

But none of these facts militate against the assumption that the Gospel of the Hebrews in its original form was identical with the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, or at least passed originally under this name among Jewish ChristiansMoreover, it is quite conceivable that, in the course of time, the original Gospel according to the Hebrews underwent alterations, especially since it was in the hands of a sect which was growing constantly more heretical, and that, therefore, its resemblance to the canonical Matthew may have been even less in the time of Eusebius and Jerome than at the beginning.22

3. Epiphanius quotes a passage from the Gospel of the Hebrews that has incorporated parts of the synoptic gospels which evidences a date well into the second century.
Epiphanius 30.13.7
And after saying a number of things, it adds, When the people had been baptized, Jesus came also and was baptized by John. And as he came up out of the water, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove which descended and entered into him. And (there came) a voice saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I am well pleased. And again: This day have I begotten thee. And straightway a great light shone round about the place. Seeing this, it says, John said unto him, Who art thou, Lord? And again (there came) a voice from heaven, This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.

This passage from the Gospel of the Hebrews seeks to harmonize the different words of the voice coming from heaven in the synoptic gospels.

Matt.3:17 says,
And a voice came from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Mk.1:11 and Lu.3:22 says,
And a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

4. Jerome mentions a passage that calls James, the brother of the Lord, the Just which is a second century title for James.
The use of this title demonstrates that the Gospel of the Hebrews had to have been written after the use of this title became popular. Therefore, the Gospel of the Hebrews was written in the second century or beyond.

Jerome Lives Illustrious Men, 2
The Gospel also which is called the Gospel according to the Hebrews, and which I have recently translated into Greek and Latin and which also Origen often makes use of, after the account of the resurrection of the Saviour says, but the Lord, after he had given his grave clothes to the servant of the priest, appeared to James (for James had sworn that he would not eat bread from that hour in which he drank the cup of the Lord until he should see him rising again from among those that sleep) and again, a little later, it says Bring a table and bread, said the Lord. And immediately it is added, He brought bread and blessed and brake and gave to James the Just and said to him, my brother eat thy bread, for the son of man is risen from among those that sleep.

Grant, Freedman, and Scheodel, shares the age of this epithet,
In this story, the author of Hebrews has managed to include several highly biased notions. First, he has made James the Just (a second century title for the Lords brother) a guest at the Lords Supper.23



Orthodox Christians Views of the Gospel of the Hebrews
1. The Gospel of the Hebrews was not perceived as a heretical work at the time of Clement, Origen and Eusebius.
Clement and Origen quote the Gospel of the Hebrews to support their points as seen in the quotes above, but they do not give it the same authority or credibility as the canonical gospels. However, they do not call it heretical either.

In regard to Origens view of the Gospel of the Hebrews, Johann Michaelis writes,
It is more certain that Origen was acquainted with this Gospel, for he has sometimes quoted it in his Commentary on St. Matthew: but he did not receive it as the genuine work of an Apostle.24

2. Eusebius says that the Gospel of the Hebrews was considered part of the disputed books, but Hebrew Christians used it.
Eusebius 3.25.3-5
At this point it may be appropriate to list the New Testament writings already referred to. The holy quartet of the Gospels are first, followed by the Acts of the Apostles. Next are Paul's epistles, 1 John, and 1 Peter. The Revelation of John may be added, the arguments regarding which I shall discuss at the proper time. These are the recognized books. Those that are disputed yet known to most are the epistles called James, Jude, 2 Peter, and the so-named 2 and 3 John, the work of the Evangelist or of someone else with the same name.

Among the spurious books are the Acts of Paul, the Shepherd [of Hermas], the Revelation of Peter, the alleged epistle of Barnabas, the so-called Teachings of the Apostles [Didache], as well as the Revelation of John, if appropriate here: some reject it, others accept it, as stated before. In addition, some have included the Gospel of the Hebrews in the list, for which those Hebrews who have accepted Christ have a special fondness. These would all be classified with the disputed books, those not canonical yet familiar to most church writers, which I have listed separately in order to distinguish them from those writings that are true, genuine, and accepted in the tradition of the church.

Writings published by heretics under the names of the apostles, such as the Gospels of Peter, Thomas, Matthias, and others, or the Acts of Andrew, John, and other apostles have never been cited by any in the succession of church writers. The type of phraseology used contrasts with apostolic style, and the opinions and thrusts of their contents are so dissonant from true orthodoxy that they show themselves to be forgeries of heretics. Accordingly, they ought not be reckoned even among the spurious books but discarded as impious and absurd.
(Quote from Eusebius, Church History, Trans. Paul Maier, Kregel Publications, Grand Rapids, MI, 1999, 115)

Notice that Eusebius does not classify the Gospel of the Hebrews under the heretics writings such as the Gospels of Peter or Thomas. He classifies it as part of the disputed books.

3. Epiphanius says that the Gospel of the Hebrews was heretical, a corrupted and mutilated version of the Gospel of Matthew.
Epiphanius, in his Panarion, called the Gospel of the Hebrews a forged and mutilated Gospel of Matthew, thus heretical. He gave evidence of its heretical nature by sharing passages taken from the Gospel of the Hebrews. Some of these passages have been already seen in the section of this article detailing the Gnostic teachings of the gospel.

Epiphanius 30.13.2
In the Gospel that is in general use amongst them, which is called according to Matthew, which however is not whole (and) complete but forged and mutilated - they call it the Hebrew Gospel - it is reported
(Quote from New Testament Apocrypha, Vol. 1 Gospels and Related Writings, Ed. Wilhelm Schneemelcher, Trans. R. McL. Wilson, Westminster John Knox Press 1990, 170)

4. Jerome quotes from the Gospel of the Hebrews and says it is thought to be the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, but he never uses it in an authoritative way.
Jerome never used the Gospel of the Hebrews in his interpretation of the Gospel of Matthew and never chose one of its texts as a superior reading over the Greek Matthew.

When Jerome found two different readings between the Gospel of the Hebrews in Hebrew and the Gospel of Matthew in Greek, he did not use the reading from the Gospel of the Hebrews although he mentioned it.

In the Greek Gospel of Matthew, the text in a sentence in the Lords prayer which says, Give us this day our daily bread, the Greek word translated daily is epiousion. The Gospel of the Hebrews had the Hebrew word mahar which means of tomorrow. Jerome chose the Greek Gospel reading in translating his Latin text.

Johann Michaelis mentions this choice by Jerome,
Jerome used the reading from the Greek Matthew over the reading from the Gospel of the Hebrews in regards to epiousion.25

Michaelis gives another example of Jerome not using the Gospel of the Hebrews to settle translation issues, This answer applies with still greater force to another example quoted by Mill from Matthew 24:36. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. On this passage Jerome observes, that in some copies the words, 'nor the Son,' were added: but he does not appeal to the Hebrew Gospel to determine whether they were genuine. Now suppose he had found these words in the Hebrew Gospel, the question to be asked is: ought he, as a critic, to have used this as an argument in favour of their authenticity? Certainly not. For since many of the Nazarenes denied the divinity of Christ, and this very reading has been used as an argument against the divinity, Jerome must necessarily have suspected that it was one of the many additions, which had been made to the Hebrew Gospel.26

Michaelis shows by these two examples, that although Jerome seems to give some credibility to the Gospel of the Hebrews, he never gave it the same authenticity and authority of the Greek Gospel of Matthew.

The Lack of Consensus

This lack of consensus of the orthodox church regarding the Gospel of the Hebrews may have been due to the following reasons:
1) The language of Hebrew (Aramaic) in which it was written was not well known in the Mediterranean world and therefore it would only be read by a small group of Hebrew Christians. Many church leaders did not have an opinion about it because they never read it.

2) Its Gnostic parts are spread throughout the book and are given in a far more subtle form than the more obvious Gnostic Gospels such as the Gospel of Peter or Judas. Origen and Jerome tried to interpret its Gnostic statements to align with orthodox Christian doctrine.

3) The Nazareans and Ebionites were not as well-known in Irenaeus and Eusebius time as they were in the time of Epiphanius and Jerome. Many Christian leaders in the second century such as Irenaeus may have taken the Ebionites at their word, that they were using the Gospel of Matthew in Hebrew and not realized it had been changed.

4) It is only when the Ebionites became more and more radical in their Gnostic beliefs and a Christian leader such as Epiphanius investigated them and their Gospel of the Hebrews that its true nature became known. Then it was condemned as heretical.

For more scholarly support for the concept of the Gospel of the Hebrews as a severely corrupted version of the original Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, please see The Disappearance of Matthew's Hebrew Gospel.

******


http://hebrewgospel.com/Disappearance%2 ... Gospel.php
The Disappearance of Matthew's Original Hebrew Gospel

The historical literary evidence demonstrates that Matthews original Hebrew Gospel was not widely used because few in the Christian world could read Hebrew (Aramaic) and the Greek Gospel of Matthew was more suitable for both Jewish and Gentile Christians who lived across the Roman Empire. The Greek Matthew was the Gospel circulated with the other three New Testament Gospels, which were in the Greek language.

The Hebrew Matthew in its original form eventually passed away from disuse. However, it is also likely that it was taken by the Ebionites and textually corrupted in the late second century with many additions, deletions, and changes and called by them the Gospel of the Hebrews.

Matthews Hebrew Gospel was not used by the churches at large.
It is a held by virtually all scholars that the early church fathers had only the Greek Gospel of Matthew. Hence, all statements made by the church fathers about the prominence and widespread use of the Gospels always refer to the Greek Gospel of Matthew.
There were references to the existence of a Hebrew Matthew, but no church father actually possessed it and used it. Only Origen and later Jerome even understood Hebrew and could have used it. Jerome is the only one who said he had seen it and even translated it, but he later changed his statements about it.

For a discussion of Jerome and his view, see Jeromes scholarly speculation.



This lack of possession of the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew is a commonly accepted position among Biblical scholars based on the following historical literary evidence:
1. No early church father quotes from a Hebrew Gospel of Matthew or claims to have seen or used it.
When the early church fathers quote from the gospel of Matthew, it is always from the Greek Gospel of Matthew. When the early church fathers compare gospel passages from each of the gospels, it is always using the Greek text of Matthew. No reference is ever made to what a Hebrew text of the Gospel of Matthew actually said. Augustine mentions the possibility that there might have been a Hebrew text, but he implies that he did not have it and he had never seen it.

William Smith, noted English lexicogra

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Post #155

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

historia wrote:
I don't think of the "Catholic" church as "forming" in the fourth century. And copies of the Gospel of the Hebrews were apparently still known as late as the 9th Century. But, those issues aside, I see no reason to invent a conspiracy here.
Catholics like to claim that the linage of their faith stretches back to Jesus himself. The Evangelicals make the same claim. In fact virtually all Christian denominations claim to be the direct descendents of the one true church. The problem here is that the facts get in the way. Christianity and Christians were widely persecuted by the Romans during the second and third centuries. As a result Christians practiced their faith largely in secret for two centuries. There was no unified church during the second and third centuries. There were literally no physical structures or mighty temples to be found. No unified church hierarchy, no single established dogma or doctrine, and no unified acceptance of any set written documents as authoritative. That all changed in the forth century when Constantine made the religion of Christianity legal throughout the Roman empire.

Constantine had seen the Christianity as a unifying force for the empire, and was hugely dismayed at the vicious and deadly fighting that broke out all over the empire between competing Christian groups over the very lack of a unified Christian doctrine, or exactly which written documents were authoritative and which were not. As a result Constantine called together the leaders of the major Christian congregations throughout the empire and ordered them to come to a unified agreement. This first gathering of Christian leaders was known as the First Council of Nicaea in 325 AD.

"First Council of Nicaea
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
First Council of Nicaea
Date 325 AD

"The First Council of Nicaea was a council of Christian bishops convened in Nicaea in Bithynia (present-day Iznik in Turkey) by the Roman Emperor Constantine I in AD 325. This first ecumenical council was the first effort to attain consensus in the church through an assembly representing all of Christendom"

"Its main accomplishments were settlement of the Christological issue of the nature of The Son and his relationship to God the Father,[3] the construction of the first part of the Creed of Nicaea, settling the calculation of the date of Easter,[2] and promulgation of early canon law."

This was the beginning of the Catholic (Universal) church. Prior to this there was no single unified church. Only competing Christian communities spread through the Mediterranean region.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

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Post #156

Post by assisigirl »

TOTN, wants to go to the 4th, Century to talk about Resurrection.???
I want to go back to the Stone Age. I think that my search might be more productive, ie what makes people of a Judaic background conceptualize a resurrection scenario. I keep trying ..... this story is from and oral tradition within the bushmen of Africa that is at least 20,000 years old. How old do you think your precious Genesis is or have you any idea where it came from. It came from stuff like this. It came from the religion of the trees.

The Baboons

At a time long ago the baboons were little people like the Bushmen, but they were very mischievous. They loved making trouble. On a day Cagn sent his con Cogaz to go and look for sticks they could use in making bows. When the little people saw him they started dancing around the boy shouting: "Your father thinks he is clever and wants to make
bows to kill us, now we will kill you!" They did as they said and Cogaz's body was hung in a tree. The little people danced again and sang: "Cagn thinks he is clever!"
Then Cagn awoke from his sleep. He had a feeling that something was wrong so he asked his wife Coti to bring him his charms. He thought and thought. Then it came to him. He realized what the little people did to his son. He immediately went in search of his son. When the little people saw him coming they started singing an other song. A little girl sitting nearby told Cagn that they were singing something else before he came. He ordered them to sing what the girl heard before. When he heard this he ordered them to stay where they are until he returns. He returned with a basket full of pegs. As they danced he drove a peg in each of their backsides. They fled to the mountains because they now had tails and they started living with animals. Cagn then climbed into the tree and used his magic to
resurrect his son.


If a Christian is going to regard Isaiah as prophetic with regard to Jesus then surely they must regard this fireside yarn as same.

Send a Son
Kill a Son
Mock a Son
Hang a Son
Get into trouble with the Big Man
Resurrect a Son

They even used a wooden gibbet, and prophecy the cross if you want to. This is not prophecy, this is copying ie The Baboons came first. Sing a new song on to the Lord if you like!

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Re: Can the Resurrection of Jesus be Defended

Post #157

Post by SelectThis! »

[Replying to post 153 by Filthy Tugboat]
Please fill in the gaps (adding or subtracting premises as you see fit). If the Bible has all of the prophetic powers you say it does, how does that support the claim that Jesus resurrected from the dead? I'm willing to grant for the purpose of this argument that The Bible correctly prophesized all of the events you think it does except the one prophecy regarding the resurrection(assuming there was such a prophecy). How does this work as evidence that Jesus was resurrected from the grave?


As I've stated in all of my posts, the probability that one is wrong, while all the rest is correct, is an unfounded assumption of Abductive reasoning. With abductive reasoning, we have a cause and effect relationship that is mathematical in nature. There could be many causes possible, including divine intervention. For all we know, the laws of quantum mechanics allows for information to be saved (like in a computer) and resurrected by the one that operates the machine from the background. We can safely narrow down the causes to one by comparing the WHOLE context and not simply isolated events that we assume are lies. When nothing else is a lie, the the truth of the rest shines forward as a statistical certainty. We only need to see a few examples to see that the words are true and related to the whole by a unified principle of love by the Creator for what is created.

Giving the words the benefit of the doubt is a better rationale than denying one claim as false when all others can be verified as true. To deny the benefit is not logical. The evidence is not simply what we assume happened, but what is stated. If those words have other cause and effect properties, we can examine the whole to see what percentage is true. When 99% appears to be engaging as stated into our history, we can then go back to the 1% and say that it has a related context to truth rather than assuming it is false. The 1% is the most important part by the way. God said we would not receive proof of this, but instead, would receive the one sign of Jonah.

Understanding that one sign then demonstrates the validity of the rest, we see that faith (Belief in what is unseen) is a test of our ability to collapse wave function of what is indeterminate to a determined state. Again, this is how creation works and belief in what is possible can only be developed and not assumed. Why is this important? Because the foundation of faith is trust. God must first develop our trust relationship before allowing us to be free from law. Why?
Galatians 3

Children of God

23 Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abrahams seed, and heirs according to the promise.
With ability comes responsIBILITY. If God entrusts himself to us, we must be trusted as well. This is Atonement (AT ONE MENT).

John 2

23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name.[d] 24 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all people. 25 He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person.

How do you develop trust? You allow room for testing, then determine what the heart reveals. Love requires a trustworthy relationship. Again, I can show you why all day. Until you trust God, there is no faithfulness possible. He gives you the evidence you need, but hands you nothing easy. Faith makes things possible, not easy.

Has mankind demonstrated that information can be saved and replicated? Yes

Has mankind demonstrated that matter and particle / wave duality is collapsed by the observer? Almost. It's implied by observations we have made.

Is this the pattern we see in nature? Do oak trees produce acorns? Do acorns produce oak trees? Is the pattern for the form of an oak tree enfolded into an acorn with information? Did that information then replicate a new oak tree? YES! Then information can be saved and resurrected. Just because Christ didn't follow the same pathway to that regeneration in no way demonstrates that He couldn't. The one controlling the laws also controls the process.

Can a programmer change the routine in a computer to do the same tasks another way? Yes. Then it is possible God collapses wave function by a different process with Christ. Just because we don't know how he did it does not imply that it cannot be done.

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Post #158

Post by SelectThis! »

[Replying to post 156 by assisigirl]
If a Christian is going to regard Isaiah as prophetic with regard to Jesus then surely they must regard this fireside yarn as same.

Send a Son
Kill a Son
Mock a Son
Hang a Son
Get into trouble with the Big Man
Resurrect a Son

They even used a wooden gibbet, and prophecy the cross if you want to. This is not prophecy, this is copying ie The Baboons came first. Sing a new song on to the Lord if you like!
I only need one proof to show that Isaiah's prophecy is accurate.
Isaiah 11:11
In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.

Here is God's judgment predicted ahead for us to clearly read.

The Prophecy ... Ezekiel 4:4-6

"Then God said to Ezekiel,
'Now lie on your left side for 390 days
to show Israel will be punished for 390 years
by captivity and doom.
Each day you lie there represents
a year of punishment ahead for Israel.
Afterwards, turn over and lay on your right side
for 40 days, to signify the years of Judah's punishment.
Each day will represent one year . . .'"
(Ezekiel 4:4-6)

390 days Judgment against the 10 northern tribes 'Israel'
+ 40 days Judgment against the 2 southern tribes 'Judah'
= 430 years Judgment against the nation of Israel

Fulfillment

430 years of judgment determined against nation Israel
- 70 years fulfilled during the Babylonian captivity
= 360 years remaining in judgment against the nation of Israel

Where are the 360 years?

"And after all this, if you do not obey Me,
then I (God) will punish you seven times more for your sins."
(Leviticus 26:18)

"Then, if you walk contrary to Me,
and are not willing to obey Me,
I (God) will bring on you seven times more plagues,
according to your sins."
(Leviticus 26:21)

"And after all this,
if you do not obey Me,
but walk contrary to Me,
then I (God) also will walk contrary to you in fury;
and I, even I will chastise you seven times for your sins.:
(Leviticus 26:27-28)

"I (God) will scatter you among the nations
and draw a sword after you;
your Land shall be desolate
and your cities waste."
(Leviticus 26:33)

This is a factor of 7 (7X)

360 Remaining years of judgment
x 7 The prophetic '7X' factor
= 2,520 Years of judgment remained against nation Israel

360 day years for prophecies, then add the appropriate 'leap months' to the schedule. So, the easiest way to unravel this prophecy is to first convert this prophecy into days ...

2,520 years
x 360 days
= 907,200 days of judgment remained against nation Israel after the Babylonian captivity

907,200 days - 365.25 days = 2,483.78 years of God's judgment remained


Now have another look.

606 B.C Israel taken into Babylonian captivity
- 70 Years for 70 years
= 536 B.C. End of first 70 years of judgment
+ 2483 Years Now add the 2,483 years remaining in this judgment
+ 1 Year Add 1 year because there is no "0" B.C. or A.D.
= 1948 AD! End of judgment against nation Israel
There is one. How about another?
Isaiah 19

19 A prophecy against Egypt:

See, the Lord rides on a swift cloud
and is coming to Egypt.
The idols of Egypt tremble before him,
and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.
2 I will stir up Egyptian against Egyptian"
brother will fight against brother,
neighbor against neighbor,
city against city,
kingdom against kingdom.
3 The Egyptians will lose heart,
and I will bring their plans to nothing;
they will consult the idols and the spirits of the dead,
the mediums and the spiritists.
4 I will hand the Egyptians over
to the power of a cruel master,
and a fierce king will rule over them,
declares the Lord, the Lord Almighty.
We know this has an end times fulfillment because of the end of the chapter. What have we seen in our day and age? Egypt is fighting brother against bother. They have recently been stirred. They are under a cruel master (Muslim Brotherhood). The Muslims consult the spirits of the dead. It's a relationship to Jinn.

Another?

Isaiah 17

17 A prophecy against Damascus:

See, Damascus will no longer be a city
but will become a heap of ruins.
2 The cities of Aroer will be deserted
and left to flocks, which will lie down,
with no one to make them afraid.
3 The fortified city will disappear from Ephraim,
and royal power from Damascus;
the remnant of Aram will be
like the glory of the Israelites,
declares the Lord Almighty.

Evidence: http://tinyurl.com/bnxn8wm

Damascus is the oldest continuously occupied city on Earth. Aroer is Jordan. We will see this happen soon. Aram is the highlands of the Armenians. Why are they safe today? Many have moved into Israel and the rest are tucked away in a part of Syria that is untouched by war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... in_Armenia

See Isaiah 53 for a perfect description of Jesus.


.

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Post #159

Post by southern cross »

[Replying to post 158 by SelectThis!]

Wooly head you don't have children, do you?

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Re: Can the Resurrection of Jesus be Defended

Post #160

Post by Filthy Tugboat »

SelectThis! wrote: [Replying to post 153 by Filthy Tugboat]
Please fill in the gaps (adding or subtracting premises as you see fit). If the Bible has all of the prophetic powers you say it does, how does that support the claim that Jesus resurrected from the dead? I'm willing to grant for the purpose of this argument that The Bible correctly prophesized all of the events you think it does except the one prophecy regarding the resurrection(assuming there was such a prophecy). How does this work as evidence that Jesus was resurrected from the grave?


As I've stated in all of my posts, the probability that one is wrong, while all the rest is correct, is an unfounded assumption of Abductive reasoning.
Ah, so the argument you are using is this:

1. If the Bible is demonstrably correct on most of it's claims/prophecies, then it must be correct on all of it's claims/prophecies.
2. The Bible is demonstrably correct on most of it's claims/prophecies.
3. The Bible is therefore correct on all of it's claims/prophecies.
4. The Bible claimed/prophesized that Jesus would resurrect from the dead.
5. The claim/prophecy of Jesus' resurrection is true according to premise 2 and the rule in premise 1.

As premise 2 is acknowledged as true for the sake of argument, I'll leave that as it is.

Premise 1 is essentially the fallacy of composition.

Your appeal to abductive reasoning is inadequate, in this case, to assume that the whole is true because some, or even most, of the parts are true. The reason for this is that the cause of these events is unknown and unknowable. There is no reason to assume that all claims in this book are true just because most of them demonstrably are. The claims are supernatural. If supernatural events are occurring, then the source is unknown, the cause is unknown, the motive is unknown. When there is so much that is not and cannot be known then there exist no reliable reason as to what other supernatural events have occurred.

Unless you believe that some of these things can be known? The book you claim is true even states that these things cannot be known, and logically speaking, nothing can be meaningfully said of the supernatural.
Religion feels to me a little like a Nigerian Prince scam. The "offer" is illegitimate, the "request" is unreasonable and the source is dubious, in fact, Nigeria doesn't even have a royal family.

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