Can the Resurrection of Jesus be Defended

[Tired of the Nonsense]

There are no (Christians present) in actual point of fact. None that will support the story of the death and resurrection of Jesus as a point of "logic, reason and critical thinking." Unless there happens to be a Christian newbe present that I am unaware of who wishes to tackle the job. None of the Christian regulars here will defend the story of the resurrection beyond a "The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it," defense.

Not so. None is all. I would defend it gladly. Logic and reason reveals what is most evident and what the Bible reveals is absolutely most evident. Start the thread up if you dare. Bring your best arguments.

[neptune1bond]

I understand your point, but I think you fail to distinguish between ideas and reality. The 'idea' of flight has been around a long time. The reality of human, powered flight a little over a Century. This does not compare to 2000 years to accept a false 'reality' of a 'resurrection.'

No, I understand the difference, I just misunderstood your point. But, nonetheless, the Wright brothers were still not the first to contemplate the "reality" of flying either. See the following wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_flyi ... 29_by_date

According to this the claims to the first unmanned flying machine goes as far back as 428-347 BC and the first claims to a piloted flight is in the 9th century. It would also probably be safe to assume that people were contemplating it and attempting it LONG before this, but even if we just go by the dates shown, it is still older than Jesus' resurrection, nonetheless.

[neptune1bond]

I understand your point, but I think you fail to distinguish between ideas and reality. The 'idea' of flight has been around a long time. The reality of human, powered flight a little over a Century. This does not compare to 2000 years to accept a false 'reality' of a 'resurrection.'

No, I understand the difference, I just misunderstood your point. But, nonetheless, the Wright brothers were still not the first to contemplate the "reality" of flying either. See the following wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_flyi ... ing_machin...

According to this the claims to the first unmanned flying machine goes as far back as 428-347 BC and the first claims to a piloted flight is in the 9th century. It would also probably be safe to assume that people were contemplating it and attempting it LONG before this, but even if we just go by the dates shown, it is still older than Jesus' resurrection, nonetheless.

[assisigirl]

TOTN,


assisigirl: You do try hard, I'll give you that, TOTN, but I am still not seeing it in any way??


At what time in the narrative does the 'cunning plan' get formed. You are hardly suggesting that the whole thing was a military operation so therefore you are left with disciples responding to rapidly changing circumstances so here. This is what I do not get with you TOTN.

A disciple, whoever, suddenly gets a eureka moment and says.


''Instead of entombing the body, why don't we hide it, say that Jesus is Risen and we will be on to a good thing''.

I'd sooner believe in a flying Jesus than this. Explain it to me if you can TOTN

[hERICtic]

TOTN,


assisigirl: You do try hard, I'll give you that, TOTN, but I am still not seeing it in any way??


At what time in the narrative does the 'cunning plan' get formed. You are hardly suggesting that the whole thing was a military operation so therefore you are left with disciples responding to rapidly changing circumstances so here. This is what I do not get with you TOTN.

A disciple, whoever, suddenly gets a eureka moment and says.


''Instead of entombing the body, why don't we hide it, say that Jesus is Risen and we will be on to a good thing''.

I'd sooner believe in a flying Jesus than this. Explain it to me if you can TOTN

The story was embellished over time. Jesus died, was placed in the tomb then eventually moved to Gallilee. No ulterior motives. Over time the story became more outlandish, w Jesus returning from the dead. Seems quite plausible. Heck of a lot more plausible then being resurrected.

[hERICtic]

TOTN,


assisigirl: You do try hard, I'll give you that, TOTN, but I am still not seeing it in any way??


At what time in the narrative does the 'cunning plan' get formed. You are hardly suggesting that the whole thing was a military operation so therefore you are left with disciples responding to rapidly changing circumstances so here. This is what I do not get with you TOTN.

A disciple, whoever, suddenly gets a eureka moment and says.


''Instead of entombing the body, why don't we hide it, say that Jesus is Risen and we will be on to a good thing''.

I'd sooner believe in a flying Jesus than this. Explain it to me if you can TOTN

The story was embellished over time. Jesus died, was placed in the tomb then eventually moved to Gallilee. No ulterior motives. Over time the story became more outlandish, w Jesus returning from the dead. Seems quite plausible. Heck of a lot more plausible then being resurrected.

[hERICtic]

TOTN,


assisigirl: You do try hard, I'll give you that, TOTN, but I am still not seeing it in any way??


At what time in the narrative does the 'cunning plan' get formed. You are hardly suggesting that the whole thing was a military operation so therefore you are left with disciples responding to rapidly changing circumstances so here. This is what I do not get with you TOTN.

A disciple, whoever, suddenly gets a eureka moment and says.


''Instead of entombing the body, why don't we hide it, say that Jesus is Risen and we will be on to a good thing''.

I'd sooner believe in a flying Jesus than this. Explain it to me if you can TOTN

The story was embellished over time. Jesus died, was placed in the tomb then eventually moved to Gallilee. No ulterior motives. Over time the story became more outlandish, w Jesus returning from the dead. Seems quite plausible. Heck of a lot more plausible then being resurrected.

[Danmark]

I understand your point, but I think you fail to distinguish between ideas and reality. The 'idea' of flight has been around a long time. The reality of human, powered flight a little over a Century. This does not compare to 2000 years to accept a false 'reality' of a 'resurrection.'

No, I understand the difference, I just misunderstood your point. But, nonetheless, the Wright brothers were still not the first to contemplate the "reality" of flying either. See the following wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_flyi ... ing_machin...

According to this the claims to the first unmanned flying machine goes as far back as 428-347 BC and the first claims to a piloted flight is in the 9th century. It would also probably be safe to assume that people were contemplating it and attempting it LONG before this, but even if we just go by the dates shown, it is still older than Jesus' resurrection, nonetheless.

I agree that the dream of flight is as old as the first humans who looked at birds and were enthralled with their ability to soar. I just don't understand what this has to do with the acceptance of fantasy.

[assisigirl]

TOTN


In Rome, in the year 93, Josephus published his lengthy history of the Jews. While discussing the period in which the Jews of Judaea were governed by the Roman procurator Pontius Pilate, Josephus included the following account:

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.
- Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 63
(Based on the translation of Louis H. Feldman, The Loeb Classical Library.)

http://www.josephus.org/testimonium.htm


assisigirl: This is an excellent link and the same guy 'Josephus' who talks about surviving crucifixion.

[Danmark]

TOTN


In Rome, in the year 93, Josephus published his lengthy history of the Jews. While discussing the period in which the Jews of Judaea were governed by the Roman procurator Pontius Pilate, Josephus included the following account:

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.
- Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 63
(Based on the translation of Louis H. Feldman, The Loeb Classical Library.)

http://www.josephus.org/testimonium.htm

assisigirl: This is an excellent link and the same guy 'Josephus' who talks about surviving crucifixion.

assgirl my friend, this is widely, almost conclusively, considered a forgery by scholars who study this stuff.

Do I need to dig out the citations and their rationale?

I have too much respect for you to think you cannot discover this for yourself, but if you ask, you shall receive. =o)

[assisigirl]

Hi All, here is this Josephus guy again. It makes for harrowing reading!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jewish War 4: Chapter 5
Josephus reports on the Jewish custom of taking down the bodies of those crucified by the Romans during the Great Revolt and burying them, if permitted, before sundown. This was in response to the Torah Mitzvah found in Deuteronomy 21:22-23: "When someone is convictged of a crime punishable by death and is executed, and yo9u hang him on a tree, his corpse must not remain all night upon the tree; you shall bury him that same day, for anyone hung on a tree is under God's curse."
2. But the rage of the Idumeans was not satiated by these slaughters; but they now betook themselves to the city, and plundered every house, and slew every one they met; and for the other multitude, they esteemed it needless to go on with killing them, but they sought for the high priests, and the generality went with the greatest zeal against them; and as soon as they caught them they slew them, and then standing upon their dead bodies, in way of jest, upbraided Ananus with his kindness to the people, and Jesus with his speech made to them from the wall. Nay, they proceeded to that degree of impiety, as to cast away their dead bodies without burial, although the Jews used to take so much care of the burial of men, that they took down those that were condemned and crucified, and buried them before the going down of the sun. I should not mistake if I said that the death of Ananus was the beginning of the destruction of the city, and that from this very day may be dated the overthrow of her wall, and the ruin of her affairs, whereon they saw their high priest, and the procurer of their preservation, slain in the midst of their city.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
War 5: Chapter 6
Josephus reports that the Romans crucified many before the walls of Jerusalem during the siege of 70 C.E. The idea was to terrorize the population and force a surrender. The number reached 500 a day at one point until there was no wood left in the area for this purpose!
5. Now it happened at this fight that a certain Jew was taken alive, who, by Titus's order, was crucified before the wall, to see whether the rest of them would be aftrighted, and abate of their obstinacy. But after the Jews were retired, John, who was commander of the Idumeans, and was talking to a certain soldier of his acquaintance before the wall, was wounded by a dart shot at him by an Arabian, and died immediately, leaving the greatest lamentation to the Jews, and sorrow to the seditious. For he was a man of great eminence, both for his actions and his conduct also.

Chapter 11


1. So now Titus's banks were advanced a great way, notwithstanding his soldiers had been very much distressed from the wall. He then sent a party of horsemen, and ordered they should lay ambushes for those that went out into the valleys to gather food. Some of these were indeed fighting men, who were not contented with what they got by rapine; but the greater part of them were poor people, who were deterred from deserting by the concern they were under for their own relations; for they could not hope to escape away, together with their wives and children, without the knowledge of the seditious; nor could they think of leaving these relations to be slain by the robbers on their account; nay, the severity of the famine made them bold in thus going out; so nothing remained but that, when they were concealed from the robbers, they should be taken by the enemy; and when they were going to be taken, they were forced to defend themselves for fear of being punished; as after they had fought, they thought it too late to make any supplications for mercy; so they were first whipped, and then tormented with all sorts of tortures, before they died, and were then crucified before the wall of the city. This miserable procedure made Titus greatly to pity them, while they caught every day five hundred Jews; nay, some days they caught more: yet it did not appear to be safe for him to let those that were taken by force go their way, and to set a guard over so many he saw would be to make such as great deal them useless to him. The main reason why he did not forbid that cruelty was this, that he hoped the Jews might perhaps yield at that sight, out of fear lest they might themselves afterwards be liable to the same cruel treatment. So the soldiers, out of the wrath and hatred they bore the Jews, nailed those they caught, one after one way, and another after another, to the crosses, by way of jest, when their multitude was so great, that room was wanting for the crosses, and crosses wanting for the bodies.

assisigirl:Romans were not to be trifled with, crucified bodies everywhere.