Let's say that a God does exist

[Zetesis Apistia]

This is not an argument for the existence of God. This is not a trick to say gotcha. Just curious as to your response. No levity please. Here is the scenario......

You die and all of the sudden you find your self still consciously aware in a spiritual dimension that is foreign to the world in which we live. You are suddenly apprehended by an angelic host and carted off to a courtroom of sorts....You are then seated before a judge (God). God then asks you to plead your case before he makes his decision on your eternal destiny. What would be your response?

[Iam]

[Replying to post 100 by Zetesis Apistia]

There is so much to disagree with here, but you're limping after shooting yourself in the foot with this one:

Knowing what choices you will make in advance of you making them does not force you to choose. The powers that be predicted that Louisville would win the NCAA basketball championship and they did. But they didn't pull strings to make it happen.

Here is a very simple question.
Can you choose something different and thus prove god's omniscience false?
Here is another simple question.
Has god known what your choice would be from before creation?
And another.
Do the choices you make have any affect on your afterlife?
And just one more.
Did God create you?

[Bust Nak]

This stands out, a lot.

Suppose a guy wants to get a virgin in bed but shes resistant. He proceeds to get her drunk and all of the sudden her inhibitions are removed and she becomes a sex crazed lunatic. The next morning she awakes and is upset with herself because of her actions.

1) Did he force her to sleep with him?
2) How then did he get her to do something that she didn't want to do?

1) Yes.
2) By getting her drunk obviously.

Anything but putting the whole blame solely on the guy is victim blaming. It's the kind of thinking that enable rapists.

[Zetesis Apistia]

This stands out, a lot.

Suppose a guy wants to get a virgin in bed but shes resistant. He proceeds to get her drunk and all of the sudden her inhibitions are removed and she becomes a sex crazed lunatic. The next morning she awakes and is upset with herself because of her actions.

1) Did he force her to sleep with him?
2) How then did he get her to do something that she didn't want to do?

1) Yes.
2) By getting her drunk obviously.

Anything but putting the whole blame solely on the guy is victim blaming. It's the kind of thinking that enable rapists.

My point was that she was controlled thru passion and not the will since she was consenting. I am not justifying his actions any more than I would justify satans when he does the same.

[Zetesis Apistia]

[Replying to post 100 by Zetesis Apistia]

There is so much to disagree with here, but you're limping after shooting yourself in the foot with this one:

Knowing what choices you will make in advance of you making them does not force you to choose. The powers that be predicted that Louisville would win the NCAA basketball championship and they did. But they didn't pull strings to make it happen.

Here is a very simple question.
Can you choose something different and thus prove god's omniscience false?

No because he knows the passion that will influence your decision therefore he can predict the decision.

Here is another simple question.
Has god known what your choice would be from before creation?

Yes

And another.
Do the choices you make have any affect on your afterlife?

Yes
And just one more.

Did God create you?

Yes

[Iam]

[Replying to post 100 by Zetesis Apistia]

There is so much to disagree with here, but you're limping after shooting yourself in the foot with this one:

Knowing what choices you will make in advance of you making them does not force you to choose. The powers that be predicted that Louisville would win the NCAA basketball championship and they did. But they didn't pull strings to make it happen.

Here is a very simple question.
Can you choose something different and thus prove god's omniscience false?

No because he knows the passion that will influence your decision therefore he can predict the decision.

Here is another simple question.
Has god known what your choice would be from before creation?

Yes

And another.
Do the choices you make have any affect on your afterlife?

Yes
And just one more.

Did God create you?

Yes

So lets work backwards shall we?
God created you.
The choices you make determine your afterlife.
God knew before he created you that you would end up in heaven or hell from before he created you.
God knew, without any doubt that your choices would send you to hell, because you couldn't change those choices or else your god's omniscience would be shattered.
Here then is another simple question
If god knows that you are destined to go to hell from before he created anything, why did he create YOU?
And another
Was it just sadistic pleasure?

[McCulloch]

If god knows that you are destined to go to hell from before he created anything, why did he create YOU?
And another
Was it just sadistic pleasure?

[font=Georgia]
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.[/font]

Apparently, according to the apostle Paul, God is sending many to eternal torment in order to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, thus also making known the riches of His glory to those few who do receive grace. Does this logic seem twisted to anyone other than just me?

[dianaiad]

This stands out, a lot.

Suppose a guy wants to get a virgin in bed but shes resistant. He proceeds to get her drunk and all of the sudden her inhibitions are removed and she becomes a sex crazed lunatic. The next morning she awakes and is upset with herself because of her actions.

1) Did he force her to sleep with him?
2) How then did he get her to do something that she didn't want to do?

1) Yes.
2) By getting her drunk obviously.

Anything but putting the whole blame solely on the guy is victim blaming. It's the kind of thinking that enable rapists.

My point was that she was controlled thru passion and not the will since she was consenting.

What part of 'resistant' weren't you reading while you were writing it?

If God excused Lot for having sex with his daughters because they got HIM drunk and so blamed the daughters, what the heck is your double standard here about blaming the virgin for having sex because her date got HER drunk?

She might well feel guilt for giving in to drinking too much...but the rape (and it was rape) is all on the guy who got her to do it.

....and y'know what? The court would say the same if she went to the police.

[Bust Nak]

This stands out, a lot.

Suppose a guy wants to get a virgin in bed but shes resistant. He proceeds to get her drunk and all of the sudden her inhibitions are removed and she becomes a sex crazed lunatic. The next morning she awakes and is upset with herself because of her actions.

1) Did he force her to sleep with him?
2) How then did he get her to do something that she didn't want to do?

1) Yes.
2) By getting her drunk obviously.

Anything but putting the whole blame solely on the guy is victim blaming. It's the kind of thinking that enable rapists.

My point was that she was controlled thru passion and not the will since she was consenting. I am not justifying his actions any more than I would justify satans when he does the same.

Your point may well be fine but the example chosen to illustrate your point isn't. Getting someone drunk to the point they agree to sex where previously they were resistant is not consenting.

[Zetesis Apistia]

Here then is another simple question
If god knows that you are destined to go to hell from before he created anything, why did he create YOU?
And another
Was it just sadistic pleasure?

I will refer you to Paul's writing on this matter.....
Romans9:13 The words of Scripture are-'I loved Jacob, but I hated Esau.'
14 What are we to say, then? Is God guilty of injustice? Heaven forbid!
15 For his words to Moses are-'I will take pity on whom I take pity, and be merciful to whom I am merciful.'
16 So, then, all depends, not on human wishes or human efforts, but on God's mercy.
17 In Scripture, again, it is said to Pharaoh-'It was for this very purpose that I raised thee to the throne, to show my power by my dealings with thee, and to make my name known throughout the world.'
18 So, then, where God wills, he takes pity, and where he wills, he hardens the heart.
19 Perhaps you will say to me-'How can any one still be blamed? For who withstands his purpose?'
20 I might rather ask 'Who are you who are arguing with God?' Does a thing which a man has molded say to him who has molded it 'Why did you make me like this?'
21 Has not the potter absolute power over his clay, so that out of the same lump he makes one thing for better, and another for common, use?
22 And what if God, intending to reveal his displeasure and make his power known, bore most patiently with the objects of his displeasure, though they were fit only to be destroyed,
23 So as to make known his surpassing glory in dealing with the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared beforehand for glory,TCNT

[Zetesis Apistia]

This stands out, a lot.

Suppose a guy wants to get a virgin in bed but shes resistant. He proceeds to get her drunk and all of the sudden her inhibitions are removed and she becomes a sex crazed lunatic. The next morning she awakes and is upset with herself because of her actions.

1) Did he force her to sleep with him?
2) How then did he get her to do something that she didn't want to do?

1) Yes.
2) By getting her drunk obviously.

Anything but putting the whole blame solely on the guy is victim blaming. It's the kind of thinking that enable rapists.

My point was that she was controlled thru passion and not the will since she was consenting.

What part of 'resistant' weren't you reading while you were writing it?

If God excused Lot for having sex with his daughters because they got HIM drunk and so blamed the daughters, what the heck is your double standard here about blaming the virgin for having sex because her date got HER drunk?

She might well feel guilt for giving in to drinking too much...but the rape (and it was rape) is all on the guy who got her to do it.

....and y'know what? The court would say the same if she went to the police.

Our conversation had nothing to do with the topic of justice or injustice. And you will have to show me where I laid "blame" on the virgin. I was merely saying that people can be manipulated thru their passions without interfering with their free will. Sure the guy in the story was a scumbag. But that was not the subject at hand.