Can the Resurrection of Jesus be Defended

[Tired of the Nonsense]

There are no (Christians present) in actual point of fact. None that will support the story of the death and resurrection of Jesus as a point of "logic, reason and critical thinking." Unless there happens to be a Christian newbe present that I am unaware of who wishes to tackle the job. None of the Christian regulars here will defend the story of the resurrection beyond a "The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it," defense.

Not so. None is all. I would defend it gladly. Logic and reason reveals what is most evident and what the Bible reveals is absolutely most evident. Start the thread up if you dare. Bring your best arguments.

[Mithrae]

Given that my previous post had zero impact on Mithraes views [in common with practically all our previous encounters] I viewed the whole exercise as a monumental waste of time, so it was a case of bugger that for a game of cowboys.

Before your post, in this very thread I had already commented on two examples in which your views had inclined me towards views closer to your own: The possible wholesale forgery of the TF, and the possibility that Jesus' body was never entombed by his supporters. There are also other things we've discussed on which your arguments have not persuaded me, such as Josephus' reference to the death of James, and a mid-2nd century date for gJohn. I have rarely (if ever) found any problems with your facts, but we often disagree significantly on interpretation of the data, with you generally favouring the non-traditional and later-dating views.

My reason for maintaining that Clement was referring to Peter and Paul's deaths was not because your comments had "zero impact," though I'll acknowledge that I often don't simply take others' word for it when they make a claim, even if they are better educated than I. (In fact though the point is now moot, my very first question/concern - Did martus come to mean dying for one's faith for Greek speakers generally, or was it merely a Christian euphemism - still remains unanswered.) But my reason for maintaining that Clement was referring to Peter and Paul's deaths was because quite apart from the word you disputed the original and the alternative translations I checked still clearly said that these "pillars of the Church were persecuted, and contended even unto death," as I posted and referenced.

You then disputed the reliability of all translations from before the late 19th century. Fair enough. However the groundless insults did not add any weight to your views.

But as I say, the point is entirely moot. With or without Clement, Tired does not believe that John's appendix's comment about Peter being carried to a death by which he would glorify God is a reference to martyrdom.

[Danmark]

There are several scholarly works* charting the gradual change in meaning of martus from witness to martyr, however most [if not all] are not available in electronic format. Consequently I would have to retrieve the documents, translate them [many of the most influential are only in print in German] and then transcribe their contents [ocr only goes so far!]. Given that my previous post had zero impact on Mithraes views [in common with practically all our previous encounters] I viewed the whole exercise as a monumental waste of time, so it was a case of bugger that for a game of cowboys.

... [citations redacted]....
Trites is particularly helpful as she charts [using diachronistic semantics] the semantic change over five stages whereby the word came to mean martyr by the end of the second century:
1. Originally, meant a witness in a court of law with no expectation of death.
2. Then it came to mean a man who testified to his faith in a lawcourt and suffered death as the penalty for his witness.
3. Next, death is regarded as part of the witness.
4. becomes equivalent to martyr. Here the idea of death is uppermost, though the idea of witness is not entirely lacking.
5. The idea of witness disappears, and the words , , and are used absolutely to refer to martyrdom.

[emphasis applied]
Thank you. That certainly makes sense to me etymologically.

I don't blame you for not wanting to go thru the hassle you describe for sources not available electronically. As you say, OCR is problematic enough, let alone what would be likely to happen in German. Particularly if the font is the Blackletter German publishers favored even as late as the 20th Century. As Norwegian Americans say, "Uff da!"

I have a remaining question. Do we have any idea when Justin acquired the 'Martyr' surname?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

TOTN asserts:Because compared to most of human history, we have it incredibly good. Our bellies, at least in this country, are much to full. Modern medical science alleviates our ills, and soothes our pains. Give me an electric blanket to get me through the winter and an air conditioner to get me through the summer over a mud hut any time.

assisigirl reply: This is not the description of a human life and it suggests a longing for an old peoples home. It is too sad to be funny but it does show the incredible difficulty in floating a 'resurrection' concept by you, TOTN. It also explains your bog standard conspiracy theory that should be in an episode of 'Murder She Wrote', another care home classic

I am pretty old, admittedly. I just got back from doing a quick 20 miles on my new hybrid bicycle though, and I'm not ready for an old folks home just yet. I've never watched "Murder She Wrote" and in fact I'm not much of a fan of popular TV programing. My daughter recently brought over the first two seasons of Downton Abbey, which I admit I enjoyed. I am happily retired and according to the actuarial tables I have another eighteen years or so coming to me, and I intend to enjoy them to the fullest. I don't plan on dying with any regrets, and I don't expect any sensations one way or the other after I am dead. I do tend to luxuriate in a nice warm electric blanket on a cold winter's night though, admittedly. But there's no one to tell me I can't, and I don't feel at all guilty about it.

But I think the subject at hand was your statement that "The world is going downhill." I'm sorry you feel that way. I can only suppose that it sucks to be you, and I have no idea of why, nor do I carry any responsibility for it. It's great to be me though! I have always enjoyed my life. But perhaps that is because I have always seen my sentient existence as an incredible gift despite astronomical odds, and I would really hate to waste the only existence I know by spending it yearning to begin the existence I imagine awaits me in the land of make believe after I die.

Listen to someone with a brain!.

Matthew 6:25

"Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?"

Gospel Matthew also depicts hordes of the dead raising from their graves and wandering the streets of Jerusalem. As you recently pointed out, the author of Luke also said: "Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.".

If Jesus was not physically resurrected from the dead then there is no hand of God to be seen anywhere in the story. No hand of God, no hordes of dead people and nothing but an empty offer of an imaginary kingdom. In which case the authors of Matthew and Luke were just two more in a long line of religious crack pots spouting metaphysical drivel. I am not much impressed with metaphysical drivel, as you can probably tell. The ruminations of ancient ignorant superstitious peoples are very interesting from an anthropological perspective. It helps us to understand their perspective on reality and how it impacted where we are now. But the whole purpose of attaining knowledge is putting ignorance behind us. Christians have been insisting that the kingdom of God is at hand now, for the last 2,000 years. Does a 100% failure rate, 0 for 2,000 years, fail to make an impression of you at all?

Your depiction of a non-Jesus mindset has been a revelation to me? You depict a 'fear' of life and we are told that a coward dies one hundred times.

I have not the slightest clue where you got the idea that I depict a fear of life. I have always embraced life, and lived life fully. In fact it is the religious who seem to be terrified of this life. Terrified of their make believe terrors, such as ghosts and spirits and devils and demonic possession. I have noticed that to be plagued by such terrors requires that one must first fully believe in such terrors. I have no such beliefs and as a consequence I have never been plagued by any make believe terrors. No atheist I know has ever seen a ghost, or been plagued by demons or demonic possession. I use to be an avid backpacker however, and have had numerous experiences with bears over the years. I must admit, bears worry me a little.

This is a mindset usually present in the religious consciousness. Alot of people enjoyed their lives in the past, alot of people were brave and lived lives of exhiliration. You cannot measure a life in days.

You know, I have dreams when I am sleeping. But then I wake up. You seem to live in a world where make believe and reality all run together.

Which would be more traumatic, death in the World War trenches or a catastrophic car wreck with your family on a day out. Danger has not gone away and has nothing to do with anyones beliefs.

And yet we continue to get out of bed each morning in full knowledge that each day is potentially our last. For me at the age of 64 that reality is a good deal more close at hand. But then, I have had my life, so really the older I get the less I have to lose. The truth of the matter is as a younger man I felt indestructible and I was fearless. I could break through walls and win face-to-face confrontations with bears. At this age though, I prefer to go around walls and bears.

[assisigirl]

Hi TOTN, I enjoyed your post and assure you that any sabre rattling on my part is with the intent of pushing a debate point. I do not want to be directly disrespectful

You are missing the point of life, TOTN .

Your immortality lies within your species, ie mankind. You have an affinity with the past and the future and you should be a selfless worker for all. The ant will never assimilate the complexity of the ant nest but its efforts are a component of same. Transport yourself into the future by participation in something wonderful today. Now imagine Jesus's 'kingdom of love' in which all people are actively engaged in making the future as wonderful as possible for our descendents, Imagine taking the war chest (chess,even,nest/chest,losing it) of the US and attempting to restore almost extinct eco-systems to their former pristine glory. Imagine planting trees, removing ugliness and symbols of oppression and horror, ie the great wall of China, the Tower of London,etc etc. Imagine a charter for the rights of each individual born on earth, ie that they are entitled to 2litres of clean water each day etc. Imagine if it was globally accepted that the tenents of such a declaration were non negotiable. Imagine removing slums and placing our best minds on the boards of urban planning. Imagine TOTN , imagine!

[Clownboat]

Hi TOTN, I enjoyed your post and assure you that any sabre rattling on my part is with the intent of pushing a debate point. I do not want to be directly disrespectful

You are missing the point of life, TOTN .

Your immortality lies within your species, ie mankind. You have an affinity with the past and the future and you should be a selfless worker for all. The ant will never assimilate the complexity of the ant nest but its efforts are a component of same. Transport yourself into the future by participation in something wonderful today. Now imagine Jesus's 'kingdom of love' in which all people are actively engaged in making the future as wonderful as possible for our descendents, Imagine taking the war chest (chess,even,nest/chest,losing it) of the US and attempting to restore almost extinct eco-systems to their former pristine glory. Imagine planting trees, removing ugliness and symbols of oppression and horror, ie the great wall of China, the Tower of London,etc etc. Imagine a charter for the rights of each individual born on earth, ie that they are entitled to 2litres of clean water each day etc. Imagine if it was globally accepted that the tenents of such a declaration were non negotiable. Imagine removing slums and placing our best minds on the boards of urban planning. Imagine TOTN , imagine!

You accused Tired of fearing death. He responded to your claim. I'm curious now if possibly you were just projecting your own fear, because he clearly does not seem to have this fear you accuse him of.

I then tried to imagine the things above that you suggested he should imagine. It did not help me to understand your claim of "you are missing the point to life". So I'm now also curious to know if this is just more projection on your part.

Thanks.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

You are missing the point of life, TOTN .

Your immortality lies within your species, ie mankind. You have an affinity with the past and the future and you should be a selfless worker for all. The ant will never assimilate the complexity of the ant nest but its efforts are a component of same. Transport yourself into the future by participation in something wonderful today. Now imagine Jesus's 'kingdom of love' in which all people are actively engaged in making the future as wonderful as possible for our descendents, Imagine taking the war chest (chess,even,nest/chest,losing it) of the US and attempting to restore almost extinct eco-systems to their former pristine glory. Imagine planting trees, removing ugliness and symbols of oppression and horror, ie the great wall of China, the Tower of London,etc etc. Imagine a charter for the rights of each individual born on earth, ie that they are entitled to 2litres of clean water each day etc. Imagine if it was globally accepted that the tenents of such a declaration were non negotiable. Imagine removing slums and placing our best minds on the boards of urban planning. Imagine TOTN , imagine!

I will imagine if you will.

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace.

You, you may say
I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people sharing all the world


Actually, even though I am still a huge Beatles fan and thought the world of John Lennon, I was never a big fan of this song. I liked the opening bit just fine, a statement of open atheism which was shocking back in the 1970's, but ultimately this song expresses a Utopian kind of socialism that just isn't practical. I notice that in practice Lennon lived well on all his millions. John Lennon expressed the values of love a lot in his songs, but in practice he was often quite thoughtless and cruel to the people who loved him. He was a guy with a hard candy shell and a gooey interior. John Lennon who literally told us that all we need is love was murdered by a guy who loved him to death. Sometimes the world is too ridiculous to consider. But that is what we are forced to call reality.

The point here I guess is that Utopian ideals are great, and even necessary, but reality is always going to intrude. Christianity may express Utopian ideals, but in practice ALL religions are divisive and promote superstition and ignorance. Go back to what I said about applying the golden rule. Notice how living in accordance with the golden rule really covers everything. If we all promoted the golden rule as our standard everything else would fall into place. And no religion too!

As for immortality, in 100 years people MAY still remember John Lennon, but no one will remember you and I at all. And that's the way it must be. Life is for the living, and the dead don't care.

I was just in London in January, and let's NOT remove the Tower of London. The Tower and Westminster Abbey are my two favorite sites. Many stairs in the Tower though. I was tired at the end of that day. I was talking to my son while touring Westminster Abbey, and he pointed out that I was standing on the grave of Sir Isaac Newton. That's not something that happens every day.

What I am really trying to say is that we don't need to hold on to our superstitious past to strive for a better future for our descendants. Especially if that superstitious past is holding us back. No one appreciates the past more then I do, but we should learn from the ignorant excesses of the past and not continue to embrace it. For example, did you know that during the great witch hunts of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries in Europe as many as 50,000 women and girls were tortured and murdered. A religious Jihad declared on woman in the name of God. Whole areas of France and Germany were almost completely denuded of women in the name of God and Jesus. Why? It was the natural outgrowth of an ignorant superstitious belief in Satan, Satanism and witchcraft. Because ignorance and superstitious beliefs begets ignorant superstitious responses from the self righteous who have been conditioned from birth to believe that Satan lurks behind every stone to trick and ensnare them. In other words, that's what you actually get when the world is run by a bunch of fervent religious zealots. Much as you get communism in a world run by fervent socialist zealots or fascism in a world run by fervent fascists. Am I comparing religion to communism and fascism? It seems I just did.

[assisigirl]

Clownboat enquires:You accused Tired of fearing death. He responded to your claim. I'm curious now if possibly you were just projecting your own fear, because he clearly does not seem to have this fear you accuse him of.
I then tried to imagine the things above that you suggested he should imagine. It did not help me to understand your claim of "you are missing the point to life". So I'm now also curious to know if this is just more projection on your part.

assisigirl reply: Fear takes many forms. I have no doubt that TOTN would be braver in front of a bear than I would. Life can be a death by a thousand cuts. The teachings attributed to Jesus offer a solution to introspective isolation. I have quoted some of this stuff already, here is more

Matthew 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

Clownboat, the point of life is to loose yourself in life. Again the teaching is.

Matthew 16:25
For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

TOTN, has been providing a case in point of the exact opposite of this liberating doctrine. Most people, including myself, live furtive lives hopping from one point of comfort to the next. A kingdom of love would allow us to relax this self concern that preoccupies most of our existence. This concept survived calvary and emerged in the early church of Jesus, like a resurrection. If you have something very specific I will adress it specifically. A resurrection can be real without being physical, I wanted TOTN to get this. What do you think?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

TOTN, has been providing a case in point of the exact opposite of this liberating doctrine. Most people, including myself, live furtive lives hopping from one point of comfort to the next. A kingdom of love would allow us to relax this self concern that preoccupies most of our existence. This concept survived calvary and emerged in the early church of Jesus, like a resurrection. If you have something very specific I will adress it specifically. A resurrection can be real without being physical, I wanted TOTN to get this. What do you think?

assisigirl reply: Fear takes many forms. I have no doubt that TOTN would be braver in front of a bear than I would. Life can be a death by a thousand cuts. The teachings attributed to Jesus offer a solution to introspective isolation. I have quoted some of this stuff already, here is more

Matthew 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

And what is Matthew 6:25 saying?

(1.) Take no thought for your life. Life is our greatest concern for this world; All that a man has will he give for his life; yet take no thought about it. [1.] Not about the continuance of it; refer it to God to lengthen or shorten it as he pleases; my times are in thy hand, and they are in a good hand. [2.] Not about the comforts of this life; refer it to God to embitter or sweeten it as he pleases. We must not be solicitous, no not about the necessary support of this life, food and raiment; these God has promised, and therefore we may more confidently expect; say not, What shall we eat? It is the language of one at a loss, and almost despairing; whereas, though many good people have the prospect of little, yet there are few but have present support. (Matthew Henry Commentaries). http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/m ... -Matt.6.34

Care nothing for this life, because this life is unimportant. The life which is to come is what is important. But you see, this is not revealed wisdom. This is HIDEOUS DRIVEL of the worst sort. You are a collection of lifeless particles which have, against all odds, attained sentient thought. That this should have occurred at all is astounding. Yet what this horrible philosophy is telling you, is to simply wait out this horrible base and degrading existence that you have in favor of the perfect and glorious existence that awaits you over the rainbow in the land of make believe after you die. Well guess what? In actual fact and common experience we notice quite conclusively that DEAD IS DEAD! It is not only the end of experience, it is the end of any chance to experience ANYTHING! And yet here we have you, faithfully preaching this policy which suggests that we should largely ignore the only existence that we actually know about, amazing as it may be, for the PROMISE of another existence some ancient jack ass from 2,000 years ago insists that we will experience AFTER WE DIE! And yet all common experience tells us unmistakably that DEATH IS THE END OF EXPERIENCE.

And did I just call Jesus a jack ass? Well specifically I was calling the author of Gospel Matthew a jack ass. But if Jesus actually spoke the words that Matthew is putting into his mouth, then they are both jack asses. Jack asses expounding on the religious reality of their time and culture. None of us is under any obligation to revere ANY of this ancient superstitious clap trap. You keep providing me with examples of this ancient "wisdom" as if the very power of the words will overwhelm me. But you see, I first read the Bible cover to cover some forty years ago. I am certainly familiar with it, and NO it does not impress me with it's power or wisdom. I do not reject the message of peace found in the NT, but I find that the golden rule covers everything much more effectively then does this can't-wait-to-die-so-I-can-go-to-heaven nonsense.

What I am now suggesting to YOU in return for your words of wisdom to me, is that instead of blithely swallowing down someone else's empty promises and ancient drivel, you might actually try and THINK FOR YOURSELF, and begin to form your own opinions based on your own actual experiences in THIS WORLD rather than taking a promissory note of an imaginary existence based on the ruminations of ancient superstitious people.

[assisigirl]

Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?



TOTN rants:....... you might actually try and THINK FOR YOURSELF, and begin to form your own opinions based on your own actual experiences in THIS WORLD rather than taking a promissory note of an imaginary existence based on the ruminations of ancient superstitious people.

assisigirl reply: I did not mention a 'heaven' once. You assumed this. How can you see this in the red line above. I do not believe in heaven. Now you have a real problem because you will have to figure out what the benefit of following the Jesus teachings actually is. You will be back assuming another angle here, I suppose. Your posts are slowly degenerating into blathering as the thread has moved away from ' who moved what stone when'. Maybe you should go back to this, TOTN. You were good at that stuff.


This passage Acts 2, gives an insight into early 'Jesus Mania'

A Vital Church Grows

And with many other words he (Peter) testified and exhorted them, saying, Be saved from this perverse generation. Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. And they continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

assisigirl reply: I did not mention a 'heaven' once. You assumed this. How can you see this in the red line above. I do not believe in heaven. Now you have a real problem because you will have to figure out what the benefit of following the Jesus teachings actually is. You will be back assuming another angle here, I suppose. Your posts are slowly degenerating into blathering as the thread has moved away from ' who moved what stone when'. Maybe you should go back to this, TOTN. You were good at that stuff.

Well it's true I suppose. You never mentioned heaven, even though that message is implicit in the Gospels. I have been mistaking you for a Christian of some kind. My error. You find special meaning in this material which I do not. But I have been pretty upfront from the start about my atheism which puts me at something of a disadvantage, since I have no clear idea of WHAT you believe. I am shocked though to discover that you find our little bit of interpersonal repartee to be an exercise in "blathering." I was just following your lead. I thought I was doing really well with you. One person's "rant's" are another person's bluntly honest opinions of course. But you're right, this string is petering out. I have been considering taking a bit of an extended leave from the forum in fact.