Can the Resurrection of Jesus be Defended

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Tired of the Nonsense
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Can the Resurrection of Jesus be Defended

Post #1

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

Tired of the Nonsense wrote: There are no (Christians present) in actual point of fact. None that will support the story of the death and resurrection of Jesus as a point of "logic, reason and critical thinking." Unless there happens to be a Christian newbe present that I am unaware of who wishes to tackle the job. None of the Christian regulars here will defend the story of the resurrection beyond a "The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it," defense.
SelectThis! wrote:
Not so. None is all. I would defend it gladly. Logic and reason reveals what is most evident and what the Bible reveals is absolutely most evident. Start the thread up if you dare. Bring your best arguments.

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Post #521

Post by aglassdarkly »

aglassdarkly wrote: We have several accounts of people who say they saw Jesus after He died. Are they somehow less credible than the people who say they knew Socrates?
http://christianity.about.com/od/easter ... ection.htm

Paul, the people recorded in 1 Corinthians 15, James, the women, the apostles.

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Post #522

Post by Goat »

aglassdarkly wrote:
aglassdarkly wrote: We have several accounts of people who say they saw Jesus after He died. Are they somehow less credible than the people who say they knew Socrates?
http://christianity.about.com/od/easter ... ection.htm

Paul, the people recorded in 1 Corinthians 15, James, the women, the apostles.
Paul said he saw Jesus in a vision. Sounds like sleep paralysis to me. As for the rest, we don't have THEIR story , now do we. We have claims for them..but nothing from them.

We also have a lot of people claiming to have seen Elvis after he died. Are their reports reliable?
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Post #523

Post by aglassdarkly »

Goat wrote:
aglassdarkly wrote:
aglassdarkly wrote: We have several accounts of people who say they saw Jesus after He died. Are they somehow less credible than the people who say they knew Socrates?
http://christianity.about.com/od/easter ... ection.htm

Paul, the people recorded in 1 Corinthians 15, James, the women, the apostles.
Paul said he saw Jesus in a vision. Sounds like sleep paralysis to me. As for the rest, we don't have THEIR story , now do we. We have claims for them..but nothing from them.

We also have a lot of people claiming to have seen Elvis after he died. Are their reports reliable?
Why don't you check your facts and then get back to me. Really. Check out what you've said. Verify that it makes sense. Do some critical thinking to make sure you're not generalizing or taking the easy answer at the expense of the truth... then try again.

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Post #524

Post by assisigirl »

aglassdarkly asks:We have several accounts of people who say they saw Jesus after He died. Are they somehow less credible than the people who say they knew Socrates?


assisigirl reply: I would thing so, would you not? :-s


The christian link you provided with 7 proofs to the resurrection is a joke on you.
An empty tomb,(nope), women(nope) 500 witnesses(nope) nope nope nope nope!

The gospel of 'love' is what survived Calvary and it is what you choose to trade off for an argument that you cannot win, about divine baloney.

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Post #525

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

aglassdarkly wrote: We have several accounts of people who say they saw Jesus after He died. Are they somehow less credible than the people who say they knew Socrates?

http://christianity.about.com/od/easter ... ection.htm

Paul, the people recorded in 1 Corinthians 15, James, the women, the apostles.
Goat wrote: Paul said he saw Jesus in a vision. Sounds like sleep paralysis to me. As for the rest, we don't have THEIR story , now do we. We have claims for them..but nothing from them.

We also have a lot of people claiming to have seen Elvis after he died. Are their reports reliable?
aglassdarkly wrote: Why don't you check your facts and then get back to me. Really. Check out what you've said. Verify that it makes sense. Do some critical thinking to make sure you're not generalizing or taking the easy answer at the expense of the truth... then try again.
Well I'm pretty good with facts too.

So let's start with 1 Corinthians 15:
[5] And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
[6] After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
[7] After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
[8] And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

This is one account, not the account of hundreds. It was written by a man a quarter of a century after the event it claims occurred, for an event the author was not personally present to witness. The author WAS NOT a personal witness to the living Jesus, but a witness "born of due time," who came to believe that he had an encounter with Jesus some years after Jesus was executed, and during a period when he, the author, was very ill. Is there reason to believe the account? The author SEEMS to have believed it himself. Is there any reason to doubt the account? Well the account only violates all common experience with the dead. The comparison to stories that Elvis is still alive are completely appropriate.

James:
Epistle of James
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Epistle of James (Ancient Greek: Iakobos), usually referred to simply as James, is a Letter in the New Testament. The author identifies himself as "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ." The earliest extant manuscripts of James usually date to the mid-to-late third century.[1]

There are four views concerning the Epistle of James, that:

the letter was written by James before Paul's letters,
the letter was written by James after Paul's letters,
the letter is pseudonymous,
the letter comprises material originally from James but reworked by a later editor.

Authorship
The writer calls himself simply James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.[Jas 1:1] Jesus had two apostles named James, but it is unlikely that either of these wrote the letter. One apostle, James, the son of Zebedee, was martyred about 44 AD.[6] This would be very early for him to have been the writer. The other apostle James, the son of Alphaeus, is not prominent in the Scriptural record, and very little is known about him.

Rather, evidence points to James the brother or half-brother of Jesus, to whom the resurrected Jesus evidently had made a special appearance, and who was prominent among the disciples.[7][8] The writer of the letter of James identifies himself as a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, in much the same way as did Jude, who introduced the letter of Jude by calling himself a slave of Jesus Christ, but a brother of James. (Jas 1:1; Jude 1) Furthermore, the salutation of James letter includes the term Greetings! in the same way as did the letter concerning circumcision that was sent to the congregations. In this latter instance it was apparently Jesus brother James who spoke prominently in the assembly of the apostles and the older men at Jerusalem."Adam Clarke,1821, commentary on 5:13, 22, 23.

From the middle of the 3rd century, patristic authors cited the Epistle as written by James the Just, a relation of Jesus and first Bishop of Jerusalem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_of_James
The origin of the Epistle of James can only be traced back as far as the 3rd century. Christians of course proclaim that it was written by James the brother of Jesus. This is however, like most Christian claims, based on no direct evidence. Regardless of that, nowhere does the epistle testify to the resurrection of Jesus.

The women:

None of the women left any accounts at all. Unless of course you wish to proclaim the truth of the Apocrypha, which even the most ardent Christian theologians acknowledge to be bogus. By which I mean people made them up. They lied and falsified.

The apostles:



Of the apostles, both Gospel Matthew and Gospel John are attributed to the apostles Matthew and John according to Christian tradition. Both Gospels were in fact written anonymously however, and the authenticity of their authorship has already been discussed and dismissed.

1Peter mentions the resurrected Jesus, but gives no details.

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Post #526

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

FROM THE WEBSITE OFFERED BY AGLASSDARKLY AS PROOF OF THE RESURRECTION

http://christianity.about.com/od/easter ... ection.htm

7 Proofs of the Resurrection
Evidence the Resurrection of Jesus Christ Happened
The Resurrection Proof #1: The Empty Tomb of Jesus
The empty tomb may be the strongest proof Jesus Christ rose from the dead. Two major theories have been advanced by unbelievers: someone stole Jesus' body or the women and disciples went to the wrong tomb. The Jews and Romans had no motive to steal the body. Christ's apostles were too cowardly and would have had to overcome the Roman guards.
Notice how none of this actually matches the facts as given in the Gospels. Matthew 27:64 specifically says that the Jewish priests believed that the disciples had the motive to steal the body. The apostles are condemned as cowardly for disappearing from sight, which is to say there is no account of their activities. And Jesus had more followers then just the apostles. Matthew mentions no Roman guards at the tomb, and the guard that is described took possession of a closed tomb. The last individuals to be clearly in possession of the body of Jesus are specifically described as his disciples.

John 19:
[31] The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
[32] Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
[33] But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

When was Jesus executed? ON THE DAY OF PREPARATION. In other words, on Friday, the day before the Sabbath which was also Passover that year.

Matthew 27:
[46] And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
[47] Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.
[48] And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.
[49] The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
[50] Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

What time did Jesus die? Sometime in the NINTH HOUR, on the day of preparation. Nine hours after sunrise. Roughly 3:00 PM. And so after receiving permission from Pilate to take possession of the body of Jesus the disciples took the body to Joseph's brand new tomb, because it was "nigh at hand," as a convenient out-of-sight place to prepare the body in accordance with the requirement that all bodies had to be out of sight on the holy day. And they prepared it well, according to John 19:39-40. Joseph's personal tomb was never intended to be the final resting place of Jesus.

Matt. 27:
[62] Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,

When did the priests go to Pilate and request a guard at the tomb? Sometime THE NEXT DAY. That would be on Saturday, the holy day. And so the priests went out to the closed tomb, sealed it with official seals, and set a guard. But they did not open it to inspect it for the body of Jesus, due to the prohibition of their own laws. They were forced to wait until the holy day had passed away. And the next day the tomb was discovered TO BE EMPTY. The obvious conclusion is that the tomb was empty when the priests secured it, and NOT that the corpse came back to life and wandered off.

So who had taken the body of Jesus? Well, WHO WERE THE LAST ONES WITH IT? And that would be HIS DISCIPLES. We last read of the body of Jesus, in the tomb, being prepared by his followers. Heavily wrapped with ONE HUNDRED POUNDS of aromatic spices sprinkled into the wrappings. If they had been intending to take the body on a journey of many days, they could hardly have prepared it any better.

And where DID the followers of Jesus journey following his execution? Matthew 28:16 "Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them." They went to the dead man's home region, Galilee.


The entire story of the resurrection hinges on 2,000 years of misdirection by the Christian church. Because the followers of Jesus are the obvious suspects in the relocation of the corpse of Jesus, and were at the time. As long as a natural explanation is the obvious answer, the supernatural explanation, by which a corpse comes back to life and flies away, has no viability or rational chance of being true.
The Resurrection Proof #2: The Holy Women Eyewitnesses
The holy women eyewitnesses are further proof that the Gospels are accurate historical records. If the accounts had been made up, no ancient author would have used women for witnesses to Christ's resurrection. Women were second class citizens in Bible times; their testimony was not even allowed in court. Yet the Bible says the risen Christ first appeared to Mary Magdalene and other holy women. Even the apostles did not believe Mary when she told them the tomb was empty. Jesus, who always had special respect for these women, honored them as the first eyewitnesses to his resurrection. The male Gospel writers had no choice but to report this embarrassing act of God's favor, because that was how it happened.
While it is true that the testimony of "mere" women was not allowed in court, we have no testimony of any "mere" woman to consult, because they left none.
The Resurrection Proof #3: Jesus' Apostles' New-Found Courage
After the crucifixion, Jesus' apostles hid behind locked doors, terrified they would be executed next. But something changed them from cowards to bold preachers. Anyone who understands human character knows people do not change that much without some major influence. That influence was seeing their Master, bodily risen from the dead. Christ appeared to them in the locked room, on the shore of the Sea of Galilee, and on the Mount of Olives. After seeing Jesus alive, Peter and the others left the locked room and preached the risen Christ, unafraid of what would happen to them. They quit hiding because they knew the truth. They finally understood that Jesus is God incarnate, who saves people from sin.
After a period of some six weeks, the apostles continued on much as they had before, telling stories and living off of the largess of their audiences, largely unmolested by the authorities for a number of years. .
The Resurrection Proof #4: Changed Lives of James and Others
Changed lives are yet another proof of the resurrection. James, the brother of Jesus, was openly skeptical that Jesus was the Messiah. Later James became a courageous leader of the Jerusalem church, even being stoned to death for his faith. Why? The Bible says the risen Christ appeared to him. What a shock to see your own brother, alive again, after you knew he was dead. James and the apostles were effective missionaries because people could tell these men had touched and seen the risen Christ. With such zealous eyewitnesses, the early church exploded in growth, spreading west from Jerusalem to Rome and beyond. For 2,000 years, encounters with the resurrected Jesus have changed lives.
James the brother of Jesus who knew Jesus intimately his entire life, much like the rest of Jesus' family and neighbors in Galilee, was unimpressed with Jesus during Jesus' lifetime. Only after his brother was wrongly accused on trumped up charges and executed in the most ignominious fashion in Jewish society, did James take up the cause of his fallen brother.
The Resurrection Proof #5: Large Crowd of Eyewitnesses
A large crowd of more than 500 eyewitnesses saw the risen Jesus Christ at the same time. The Apostle Paul records this event in 1 Corinthians 15:6. He states that most of these men and women were still alive when he wrote this letter, about 55 A.D. Undoubtedly they told others about this miracle. Today, psychologists say it would be impossible for a large crowd of people to have had the same hallucination at once. Smaller groups also saw the risen Christ, such as the apostles, and Cleopas and his companion. They all saw the same thing, and in the case of the apostles, they touched Jesus and watched him eat food. The hallucination theory is further debunked because after the ascension of Jesus into heaven, sightings of him stopped.
A single story of large crowds witnessing an event provided by an individual who was not personally present and which defies all common experience and common sense is hardly the same as actual crowds of eyewitnesses. Provide the testimonies of these 500 and then we can talk.
The Resurrection Proof #6: Conversion of Paul
The conversion of Paul records the most drastically changed life in the Bible. As Saul of Tarsus, he was an aggressive persecutor of the early church. When the risen Christ appeared to Paul on the Damascus Road, Paul became Christianity's most determined missionary. He endured five floggings, three beatings, three shipwrecks, a stoning, poverty, and years of ridicule. Finally the Roman emperor Nero had Paul beheaded because the apostle refused to deny his faith in Jesus. What could make a person willingly accept"even welcome"such hardships? Christians believe the conversion of Paul came about because he encountered Jesus Christ who had risen from the dead.
"The hallucination theory is further debunked because after the ascension of Jesus into heaven, sightings of him stopped."Well which is it? Did the sightings of Jesus continue, or did they stop! This is rather like stating that Abe Lincoln was born in a log cabin he helped his parents to build. It's trying to have it both ways.

During a period when Paul was violently ill and while being tended to and prayed over by a Christian man, Paul believed that he had had a vision of the years dead Jesus, and became a confirmed Christian. That Paul was beheaded under Nero is a tradition with no factual support.

The Resurrection Proof #7: They Died for Jesus
Countless people have died for Jesus, absolutely certain that the resurrection of Christ is an historical fact. Tradition says ten of the original apostles died as martyrs for Christ, as did the Apostle Paul. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of early Christians died in the Roman arena and in prisons for their faith. Down through the centuries, thousands more have died for Jesus because they believed the resurrection is true. Even today, people suffer persecution because they have faith that Christ rose from the dead. An isolated group may give up their lives for a cult leader, but Christian martyrs have died in many lands, for nearly 2,000 years, believing Jesus conquered death to give them eternal life.
It certainly is true that "tradition says" that the apostles died martyrs death. None of it however, with the exception of James the brother of John, is documented in scripture. All of the "tradition" is the result of stories told by Christians in later centuries, much of it detailed in the apocrypha which even Christians acknowledge are made up lies and falsehoods.

Christianity is built entirely on a foundation of unfounded assertions, sheer made up assumptions, and baseless traditions. A look behind all of the smoke and mirrors establishes no actual undeniable foundation of fact whatsoever.

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Socrates

Post #527

Post by Danmark »

Re: the comparison of the historicity of Socrates with Jesus, there are glaring differences. One of the most striking is that with Socrates there is no claim that he was god or performed miracles or had other supernatural powers.

There is something about the descriptions of Socrates that has the 'ring of truth,' that is, the descriptions seem very human, as if a real person was described. A key example is his appearnce:

He was not the ideal of Athenian masculinity. Short and stocky, with a snub nose and bulging eyes, Socrates always seemed to appear to be staring. However, Plato pointed out that in the eyes of his students, Socrates possessed a different kind of attractiveness, not based on a physical ideal but on his brilliant debates and penetrating thought.
http://www.biography.com/people/socrates-9488126

In comparison, Jesus, tho' he lived about 400 years later, is portrayed very superficially in regard to his appearance. He was perfect, just too perfect.

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Post #528

Post by Goat »

aglassdarkly wrote:
Goat wrote:
aglassdarkly wrote:
aglassdarkly wrote: We have several accounts of people who say they saw Jesus after He died. Are they somehow less credible than the people who say they knew Socrates?
http://christianity.about.com/od/easter ... ection.htm

Paul, the people recorded in 1 Corinthians 15, James, the women, the apostles.
Paul said he saw Jesus in a vision. Sounds like sleep paralysis to me. As for the rest, we don't have THEIR story , now do we. We have claims for them..but nothing from them.

We also have a lot of people claiming to have seen Elvis after he died. Are their reports reliable?
Why don't you check your facts and then get back to me. Really. Check out what you've said. Verify that it makes sense. Do some critical thinking to make sure you're not generalizing or taking the easy answer at the expense of the truth... then try again.
What facts do I have wrong?

What first hand accounts do we have?? Please, show what writings are from primary sources.

As for Paul.. that was a vision after being sick. That doesn't seem to reliabile to me.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Post #529

Post by East of Eden »

Goat wrote:
aglassdarkly wrote:
Goat wrote:
aglassdarkly wrote:
aglassdarkly wrote: We have several accounts of people who say they saw Jesus after He died. Are they somehow less credible than the people who say they knew Socrates?
http://christianity.about.com/od/easter ... ection.htm

Paul, the people recorded in 1 Corinthians 15, James, the women, the apostles.
Paul said he saw Jesus in a vision. Sounds like sleep paralysis to me. As for the rest, we don't have THEIR story , now do we. We have claims for them..but nothing from them.

We also have a lot of people claiming to have seen Elvis after he died. Are their reports reliable?
Why don't you check your facts and then get back to me. Really. Check out what you've said. Verify that it makes sense. Do some critical thinking to make sure you're not generalizing or taking the easy answer at the expense of the truth... then try again.
What facts do I have wrong?

What first hand accounts do we have?? Please, show what writings are from primary sources.

As for Paul.. that was a vision after being sick. That doesn't seem to reliabile to me.
You've got it backwards, the sickness came after the vision.
"We are fooling ourselves if we imagine that we can ever make the authentic Gospel popular......it is too simple in an age of rationalism; too narrow in an age of pluralism; too humiliating in an age of self-confidence; too demanding in an age of permissiveness; and too unpatriotic in an age of blind nationalism." Rev. John R.W. Stott, CBE

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Post #530

Post by Danmark »

East of Eden wrote:
Goat wrote:
aglassdarkly wrote:
Goat wrote:
aglassdarkly wrote:
aglassdarkly wrote: We have several accounts of people who say they saw Jesus after He died. Are they somehow less credible than the people who say they knew Socrates?
http://christianity.about.com/od/easter ... ection.htm

Paul, the people recorded in 1 Corinthians 15, James, the women, the apostles.
Paul said he saw Jesus in a vision. Sounds like sleep paralysis to me. As for the rest, we don't have THEIR story , now do we. We have claims for them..but nothing from them.

We also have a lot of people claiming to have seen Elvis after he died. Are their reports reliable?
Why don't you check your facts and then get back to me. Really. Check out what you've said. Verify that it makes sense. Do some critical thinking to make sure you're not generalizing or taking the easy answer at the expense of the truth... then try again.
What facts do I have wrong?

What first hand accounts do we have?? Please, show what writings are from primary sources.

As for Paul.. that was a vision after being sick. That doesn't seem to reliabile to me.
You've got it backwards, the sickness came after the vision.
The vision was REPORTED and remembered after or during the illness.

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