Non-Circular reasons for believing in the Bible.

[help3434]

I often see people quote Bible verses about scripture when asked why they believe in the Bible. Of course arguing that the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true is circular. Are there any non-circular reasons for believing in the Bible?

[Jacob Simonsky]

Light cannot exist without a source. What was the source of light before God created the sun and the stars?

Light, when used in Genesis, does not mean visible light. Rather it is an arcane reference to intelligent mind (of God).

[Justin108]

Light, when used in Genesis, does not mean visible light. Rather it is an arcane reference to intelligent mind (of God).

Can you provide a source to confirm your interpretation of the meaning of Light in Genesis?

Your interpretation makes no sense in context...
Genesis 1:3-5 "3 And God said, “Let there be light,� and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,� and the darkness he called “night.� And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day."

So according to you, a day is an intelligent mind...? And what exactly did God separate "intelligent mind" from? Stupidity? So... on day 1, God created intelligence and stupidity? Please explain

[Justin108]

I don't... Religions require that some things be taken on faith. This is such an instance. Christians will often attempt to convince others of their truths by citing various passages in the Bible. I do not do this. The only things in the Bible that can be proved are references to geographical areas of the world and a few other things.

Religions, all religions, exist outside the realm of objectivity.

Thanks...

Well that kind of makes this discussion pointless, doesn't it? The purpose of a religious debate is to argue that your god objectively exists. Essentially your argument rests on "well I think he does because I have faith"

[help3434]

The writers of Genesis thought that the sky was a solid dome.

Where does the Bible say that sky was solid dome? I think that is your interpretation that has no solid ground.

I am not making this interpretation up. See: http://biologos.org/blog/the-firmament- ... -the-point
and
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted_hil ... nt-wtj.pdf

Do you think that it is correct that the earth and plants were created before the Sun and the stars?

I think it is possible and people have no real proof that it is impossible. And I think God created first seeds of the plants and they didn’t yet grow until first rain. Therefore they didn’t also need yet sun for growing.

Why do you think that it is possible? Is it because the Bible says this happened? Why do you believe the Bible?

[help3434]

[Replying to post 69 by Jacob Simonsky]

Faith has to be based on something. What is your faith based on?

[Jacob Simonsky]

Light, when used in Genesis, does not mean visible light. Rather it is an arcane reference to intelligent mind (of God).

Can you provide a source to confirm your interpretation of the meaning of Light in Genesis?

Your interpretation makes no sense in context...
Genesis 1:3-5 "3 And God said, “Let there be light,� and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,� and the darkness he called “night.� And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day."

So according to you, a day is an intelligent mind...? And what exactly did God separate "intelligent mind" from? Stupidity? So... on day 1, God created intelligence and stupidity? Please explain

Please keep in mind that I am not a Christian. I value all of the world's religious scriptures. I don't care which religion they come from. I take them all seriously because I believe that they all come, one way or another, from God. Everything that is comes to us from God. Everything! There is only ONE source. There are no evil spirits or demons that are capable of competing with the Father. We only think there are out of fear.

No. Light does not mean a day. Light and darkness, in the Genesis context, teach us that here on earth, unlike in the spirit world, we may separated from or be near to God (the Light or put another way, the Mind of God). The ideas of duality apply. The man who is in communion with God is said to be in the light and he who strays from God is in darkness. Those two words appear in Genesis to remind us that we will be living in darkness at first and that we must eventually move back to the light.

I will provide a quote here which supports the idea of light and darkness. The Father and I are one.... Jesus. The superficial meaning of this statement is expressed by those who claim this means Jesus is God. The higher meaning is that Jesus is saying that He is fully in the Light of God's mind, that He understands God's purpose and consciously cooperates with it.

In an effort to give to each according to his/her ability to comprehend God layers information. We see this in the NT through the common use of parables. This is a most efficient method. For the man who could never understand lofty considerations God provides an easier to discover meaning in scripture. So what happens? We argue scripture all the time.

In Genesis we see that God is creating the earth and the heavens. Light is day and darkness is night. That's true but it's the superficial meaning. The higher meaning is this. God is establishing a place (earth) where souls may have the opportunity to be separated from Him (darkness) but that they may also learn through mistakes and return to God (return to the Light).

The whole concept of hell is no more than an extension of this premise. The extreme separation from God is the darkest pit of darkness. It is called hell by many religions. We are admonished to avoid going there. The higher admonishment is that we should avoid moving towards separation from God (darkness) and strive to the Light.

The idea of original sin is this exact same thing. The superficial meaning is that Adam and Eve disobeyed and ate the fruit. The higher meaning is that Adam and Eve willfully moved away from the Light and towards the darkness. The subsequent life of toil that was their reward simply was the high way of saying that they now would have to fight their way back to God, and that it would take a lifetime.

These things I allude to are the essential reason God gives of scripture in the first place. He sent us all to earth where we would have to fight every day towards reunion with Him. Did God intend we should experience darkness and fight to return? Yes. God's purpose is that his children grow to eventual wisdom. This can never happen simply by obeying. Wisdom is the child of experience.

Sin and punishment. Being born again. Being saved. Redemption. All these are first spoken of in Genesis. They all refer to the darkness of the earth and tell of moving back to the light.

I do not copy from others. We all have the exact same access to truth. It is called intuition and it is the voice of our souls.

God Bless us all...

[Justin108]

I value all of the world's religious scriptures. I don't care which religion they come from. I take them all seriously because I believe that they all come, one way or another, from God. Everything that is comes to us from God. Everything! There is only ONE source.

Judaism says there is one god. Hinduism says there are many. Who is right? Who is wrong?

No. Light does not mean a day. Light and darkness, in the Genesis context, teach us that here on earth, unlike in the spirit world, we may separated from or be near to God (the Light or put another way, the Mind of God).

Genesis 1:5 God called the light “day,� and the darkness he called “night.�

Doesn't get much clearer than that.

I will provide a quote here which supports the idea of light and darkness. The Father and I are one.... Jesus. The superficial meaning of this statement is expressed by those who claim this means Jesus is God. The higher meaning is that Jesus is saying that He is fully in the Light of God's mind, that He understands God's purpose and consciously cooperates with it.

In an effort to give to each according to his/her ability to comprehend God layers information. We see this in the NT through the common use of parables. This is a most efficient method. For the man who could never understand lofty considerations God provides an easier to discover meaning in scripture. So what happens? We argue scripture all the time.

In Genesis we see that God is creating the earth and the heavens. Light is day and darkness is night. That's true but it's the superficial meaning. The higher meaning is this. God is establishing a place (earth) where souls may have the opportunity to be separated from Him (darkness) but that they may also learn through mistakes and return to God (return to the Light).

The whole concept of hell is no more than an extension of this premise. The extreme separation from God is the darkest pit of darkness. It is called hell by many religions. We are admonished to avoid going there. The higher admonishment is that we should avoid moving towards separation from God (darkness) and strive to the Light.

The idea of original sin is this exact same thing. The superficial meaning is that Adam and Eve disobeyed and ate the fruit. The higher meaning is that Adam and Eve willfully moved away from the Light and towards the darkness. The subsequent life of toil that was their reward simply was the high way of saying that they now would have to fight their way back to God, and that it would take a lifetime.

These things I allude to are the essential reason God gives of scripture in the first place. He sent us all to earth where we would have to fight every day towards reunion with Him. Did God intend we should experience darkness and fight to return? Yes. God's purpose is that his children grow to eventual wisdom. This can never happen simply by obeying. Wisdom is the child of experience.

Sin and punishment. Being born again. Being saved. Redemption. All these are first spoken of in Genesis. They all refer to the darkness of the earth and tell of moving back to the light.

I'll ask again; how do you know your interpretation is correct?

I do not copy from others. We all have the exact same access to truth. It is called intuition and it is the voice of our souls.

Funny how we all have the exact same access, yet everyone tells me a different "truth". Is there something wrong with the access point?

[Jacob Simonsky]

I value all of the world's religious scriptures. I don't care which religion they come from. I take them all seriously because I believe that they all come, one way or another, from God. Everything that is comes to us from God. Everything! There is only ONE source.

Judaism says there is one god. Hinduism says there are many. Who is right? Who is wrong?

No. Light does not mean a day. Light and darkness, in the Genesis context, teach us that here on earth, unlike in the spirit world, we may separated from or be near to God (the Light or put another way, the Mind of God).

Genesis 1:5 God called the light “day,� and the darkness he called “night.�

Doesn't get much clearer than that.


It is very clear and those who cannot look within must accept it...

Sin and punishment. Being born again. Being saved. Redemption. All these are first spoken of in Genesis. They all refer to the darkness of the earth and tell of moving back to the light.

I'll ask again; how do you know your interpretation is correct?

I don't but my interpretation suits my correlation with Occam's Razor

I do not copy from others. We all have the exact same access to truth. It is called intuition and it is the voice of our souls.

Funny how we all have the exact same access, yet everyone tells me a different "truth". Is there something wrong with the access point?[/quote]


Access is dependent upon he who seeks to access. We are all different.

Finally I want to say that when you hear someone speaking in absolute terms beware. You are listening to a novice. The higher we look the more we discover that the truths of yesterday dissolve away to be replaced by new ones.

We evolve spiritually during our lifetimes. If we refuse to see the changeable nature of truth we stop evolving.

[Justin108]

I don't but my interpretation suits my correlation with Occam's Razor

Oh hell no. Your interpretation is needlessly complex, appealing to deep metaphorical nonsense. Occam's Razor would say Moses was simply wrong about Genesis. Much simpler.



Also you missed a question I asked regarding your claim to all religions holding the truth... but I'll ask again;

Judaism says there is one god. Hinduism says there are many. Who is right? Who is wrong?

[Jacob Simonsky]

I don't but my interpretation suits my correlation with Occam's Razor

Oh hell no. Your interpretation is needlessly complex, appealing to deep metaphorical nonsense. Occam's Razor would say Moses was simply wrong about Genesis. Much simpler.



Also you missed a question I asked regarding your claim to all religions holding the truth... but I'll ask again;

Judaism says there is one god. Hinduism says there are many. Who is right? Who is wrong?

Believe as you will...