The Problem with Christian and Muslim Fundamentalists

[jessehove]

Here is the similar problem with Christian and Muslim Fundamentalists as I see it:

http://mercyandmessiah.blogspot.ca/2013 ... lists.html

P.S. Notice I am using a specific definition of what Fundamentalism from a historical modern definition in Christianity and Islam respectively.

[kayky]

As I said if we were to show you all the evidence in the world you would come up with many excuses, you need to prove what I say is wrong, if indeed what I say is wrong then it shouldn't be that hard to disprove. The fact is you have nothing! You could say this about anything I show you as evidence. Ignoring what I call evidence does not make you correct refuting it will, so have a go.

This is merely an excuse for not offering actual evidence. What you call evidence is not evidence at all. Insisting that it is changes nothing. I am not going to "have a go" at doing your job in this debate. If the world is really full of evidence, as you claim, why not put it forth here. If I discredit it, it will be because it is not credible--not because I am not open-minded.

Kayky: No it isn't. All you did was make claims about the Koran that prove nothing.

I have given you evidence from our sources, that prove what I say, again saying that you have provided nothing which is not true, does not make you correct.

One thing I know that I am correct about is that you do not understand the concepts of debate, evidence, nor logic.

Kayky: You can doubt it if you like, but it is quite easily done. If an editor did check it, he would simply smile and say, "No errors here!" And I am no genius.

I will stick with what I said. There is no way that a person can write a book without any errors otherwise according to your logic this would be idolization because you are placing your own perfection above that of God.

I addressed this issue in my previous post. This claim that it cannot be done is quite silly. Simply because I went to school and learned to write without error does not mean I'm putting myself above God. I can assure you that I am quite imperfect in many other areas.

Kayky: What you are admitting here is that you have no evidence at all. I don't have to disprove a circular argument (the Koran is true because it says so).

I don't think so!! The Quran is true due to what is contains, If I can prove Christianity is wrong from your very sources then you should be able to do the same with mine, but you cannot.

I think you are confusing the Bible with the actual practice of true Christianity. The Bible has 66 separate books, and some of those have multiple contributors. So finding contradictions and actual errors is to be expected. The Koran was written by a single man. This made it a much easier task to maintain consistency. So I am not impressed by this at all.

Another error you are making is thinking that Christianity is one thing and that all Christians believe the same things. You might prove that fundamentalist Christianity is wrong; but I also think it is wrong. This does not prove to me that Islam is correct. Can you prove that Progressive Christianity is false? Now there's a challenge for you. Since we do not make idols of our "sources" as Muslums do, I think you would be hard-pressed to do so!

[HaLi8993]

Iam

I supplied a couple of them in the thread http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=20973. But there are so many more.
Who does the quran say is the first believer in Allah and how many first believers does it claim, given the FACT that there can be only one FIRST?

But I have a second question: Did Allah ever supply revelations to muhammad directly, ie not through gabriel?

Can you point them out to me then, let's see how hard you have studied.

Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the first Muslim among his people. Muhammad (peace be upon him) was not the first Muslim on the planet.
Adam (peace be upon him) was indeed the first Muslim, the first Muslim among mankind.

As for the revelations, what do you mean by directly??

[HaLi8993]

Kayky

I think you did imply that this experience is unique to Muslums. Why does God use this method to lead different people to different religions?

Every Muslim is guided to Islam differently, God does not guide people to other "religions", as Islam is the only religion of truth.

Yes. I am very active in my church.

So why do you go against what your church teaches of hell??

I think I can give you more than one. But it really depends on how we define "perfect." If we are talking about "consistency," certain mathematical systems could be said to be "perfect." If we are talking about "complete," a Shakespearean sonnet could be said to be "perfect." If we are talking about "ideal," certain architectural models could be said to be "perfect."

It would have to be all of the above, can you give me an example.

I don't know if it is a "teaching" of Islam or not, but it is certainly evident in the behavior of many Muslums in their violent reactions to what they perceive as showing disrespect to copies of the Koran.

Then how can you make such an assertion based on stereotypical generalization, if it is not a teaching of Islam and considered one of the major sins to idolize an object in association with God, then why would any Muslim do such a thing? What you see from Muslims is the pride we as Muslims feel in our religion. To claim that burning the Quran is not disrespectful is turning a blind eye and adding falseness of their claim with which they have filled the world, namely the peace that the civilizations call for is based on respect for others and not transgressing against them. What kind of peace can such people stand for and want?! What respect do they claim to show? They want us to respect them and honour them, and even to bow and prostrate to them, but all they do is make fun of us and mock us and wrong us even more. The reality as is witnesses by the some American people is that they do not want peace. So it would be unfair to point the finger at the ones that are self defending rather you should be pointing the finger at the perpetrator.

The ancient Israelites invented Judaism. The followers of Jesus invented Christianity. Muhammad invented Islam. Siddhartha invented Buddhism. John Smith invented Mormonism. L. Ron Howard invented Scientology. Etc. Etc. Etc.

That these men started these religions cannot be denied. But you want to add the claim that God "gave" Islam to Muhammad. This is your claim to prove.

Yes I would agree with all except Islam, you haven't proved this yet. As I have said the original Torah, Gospel and Quran were all from God, however what the Jews and Christians are following today is not what God has instructed. They have changed their scriptures and gone against the teachings of God. Islam has not been changed and it will remain unchanged till the end of time.

If someone is willing to kill another human being for burning a Koran, that is definitely an "immoderate attachment or devotion" to a mere object. That is idolatry.

It is not simply burning the Quran, it is what comes along with this for example causing hatred and enmity towards Muslims, mocking our Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) who is the best man who ever walked on this earth, and he is the leader of the earlier and later generations, may the blessings and peace of my Lord be upon him. This insolence is nothing strange on the part of those that hate and envy the Muslims, rather it is to be expected of them. Moreover such crimes such as mockery of the Prophet (peace be upon him) will not be tolerated and we as Muslims are prepared to sacrifice our lives in defence of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Therefore you can call this what you wish the bottom line is we are those that stand up for justice.

Because other religions also point to the beauty and wonder of nature as proof of their God.

Yes, but what we need to examine is what evidence can they provide in support of what they say being considered from God.

How is it a "contradiction" to disagree with fundamentalist Christians? They do not have a monopoly on the religion. You solve this problem in Islam simply by saying that Muslims who believe differently from you aren't true Muslums at all. That may be convenient, but it is also illogical.

It's not the disagreement of Christians it's the disagreement with their scripture and it's teachings, and the idea that Christianity is the word of God. It's not illogical at all, because God makes it very clear who is Muslim and who is not, this is not something that is coming from our own judgement. We are full aware of our duties as Muslims, anything that goes against the teachings of Islam without any supported evidence for an action or belief could not be regarded as Islamic.

The foundation of the Christian path is death and resurrection as revealed in Jesus Christ. To "resurrect" our true nature, which is of God and, therefore, is love, all that is false and hides that true nature must die. Meditation on these truths and practicing other Christian rituals (such as the Eucharist) lead to a direct experience of God and a direct experience of the true self as love and in perfect unity with God.

How does the Eucharist give you a direct experience with God?? Where does Jesus (peace be upon him) instruct you to do this in the bible??

Since quoting from the Koran cannot prove that the Koran is from God, you have "proved" nothing. This is simple logic, and I don't know why you cannot grasp it. No matter how respectful you are (and it is appreciated), it is breaking the rules of this forum to come here only to proselytize. Insisting that you have already proven something when you obviously have not is not engaging in debate. Repeating it over and over again will not make it so.

Quoting from the Quran is proof enough seeing as we are discussing that the Quran is the word of God. Our proof is our sources you would need to find faults in them if you are to prove it otherwise. As I can find contradictions and errors in your scriptures. Denial and refusal to believe the truth does not make you correct. Refuting the evidence will.

I don't understand why you cannot see that this is a logical fallacy known as circular reasoning. Have you studied logic at all? I'm sure there are sites online that would be helpful to you in this matter.

Logically, you cannot simply say that the Koran is true because the Koran says so. This is proof of nothing. No matter how many times this is explained to you, you keep going back to this as if it actually were evidence of something. I don't understand why you cannot grasp this.

We are saying the Quran is true because of it's content and information it contains, we are saying it is true because of all the evidence I have stated earlier, we are saying it is true as it contains no contradictions and errors in it, we are saying it is true due to the signs of the universe, we are saying it is true due to the Prophets and Messengers that have come to mankind with their miracles that were witnessed by many, we are saying it is true due to the Quran being the same unaltered Quran from day one. We are saying it's true because God has preserved it. To prove all this what do we provide as evidence, obviously what God says not what we say, hence the Quran and Sunnah. Our sources not man made sources.

I am not a fundamentalist Christian so I don't believe the Bible is the word of God. I also don't believe in fortunetelling. I apply this as much to the Koran as I do to the Bible. I just don't think God and the universe work like that. So getting into a "proof text" debate with me would be pretty pointless.

I don't understand why you would call yourself a practicing Christian if you do not follow your own scripture?? One thing that defrintiates Islam to man made religions, is the fact that God has given us details explanations about what is to come in the future and we have narrations that deal with matters of the unseen both past and present. Some of these things we have experienced in our lifetime. How would any of this be known 1400 years ago?

That is the only communication I have received from God.

How do you communicate with God?? I'm trying to understand this, please have patience with me. So what your saying, correct me if I am wrong is that you ignore what God expects of you and you wait to experience life and decide according to your own logic what God wants from you, and then just leave it at love??

You're confusing me. Please be more specific.

Sorry about that I was referring to all the points of proof I provided regarding Islam being the true religion.

I've already clearly established that quoting from the Koran is not evidence. These people who claim to have been affected by jinn, how do they know this to be the case?

Quoting from the Quran and Sunnah is the only evidence, as this is the truth.

Some do some don't, worst case scenarios suffer from the effects of Jinn as there are signs that are present in the one that is effected.

Now you're being illogical again. It is your claim. Therefore, it is up to you to prove it, not the other way around. The Koran is NOT evidence in and of itself, no matter how much you believe it to be so. You want to change the rules of debate and logic. All you are proving here is that you do not understand the concepts of debate and logic

Do you ever stop and question that you might be wrong and I am right?? If I am right which I claim then what argument can you present to me other than proving what I say is wrong to make what you are saying correct?

Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary

Nope, not really - the fact that Merriam Webster's dictionary is the 11th edition of the Collegiate Dictionary explains it all, furthermore this dictionary is always being revised and expanded with corrections and improvements and the use of additional words. This cannot be considered free from any errors at all.

Once again, you prove that you do not understand debate nor logic. I have tried with patience to instruct you, but you simply ignore it.

A continual use of this excuse won't get you very far.

Read any of the Old Testament prophets. Read the Revelation of John in the New Testament. I don't actually believe that either the Bible or the Koran can predict the future. My point is that both books make these empty claims.

I want verses from the bible, please

God does give us details of what is to come in the future some of which have past some we are facing today and some major signs we are waiting to happen. All of what the Quran and Sunnah have evidence of this has happened and are yet to happen. There is no way that any person could of known any of this and there is no way that all of these things could have happened with such accuracy.

I only see the character of God criticizing other characters in the Old Testament. I can't think of a single example in the New Testament where the character of God criticizes any other character at all.

Didn't you say that:

"Characters in the Bible are also criticized and do embarrassing things. This proves nothing."

When you offer me actual evidence, I will attempt to discredit it. I'm not simply offering you advice. I'm asking you to follow the rules of this forum by supplying actual evidence, which you continue to refuse to do. Reiterating over and over again that nonevidence is evidence does nothing to either further debate or reach the "truth."

Regardless whether you believe the Quran is evidence or not, you should be able to discredit it. Anything that is based on an atoms weight of falsehood is able to be discredited. As I said the rules of debate do not specify what is considered as evidence, my evidence is the Quran even though you think otherwise, your evidence is the bible and man made speculations which I disregard as evidence so how would we ever solve this issue, by discrediting each others evidence so we can see what information is right and what is wrong. This is the line of debate and the best approach.

As I've already pointed out, you don't have to actually worship something to make an idol of it.

But you would need to go to extremes above what is not permitted in your religion for it to be considered as idolatry. Something you cannot prove.

This is a ridiculous claim. The world is full of people--both religious and nonreligious--that feel just as strongly as Muslums about injustice and oppression. As an example, why did America come into being in the first place?

Nope it's not ridiculous at all. A true religion a religion based on truth is fighting for the right reasons. When the ideas that people follow are all produced by human beings and the systems and laws that control their lives are all made up by human beings, then they are fighting for the wrong things. But when there is a divine system and law, you are fighting for injustice and oppression as stated by God and not man.

[HaLi8993]

Kayky

This is merely an excuse for not offering actual evidence. What you call evidence is not evidence at all. Insisting that it is changes nothing. I am not going to "have a go" at doing your job in this debate. If the world is really full of evidence, as you claim, why not put it forth here. If I discredit it, it will be because it is not credible--not because I am not open-minded.

If you fail to acknowledge evidence I cannot do much for you here and you should reframe from asking for evidence. My job is to discredit what you consider as evidence and your job is to do the same, refusing to do so means what I say is the truth cause you fail to discredit it.

One thing I know that I am correct about is that you do not understand the concepts of debate, evidence, nor logic.

That is your opinion!

I addressed this issue in my previous post. This claim that it cannot be done is quite silly. Simply because I went to school and learned to write without error does not mean I'm putting myself above God. I can assure you that I am quite imperfect in many other areas.

Nobody can write a book free of error because you are not perfect. The thought that you can is placing yourself above God, because you are claiming that you are perfect in this regard, when it is only God that is perfect in His attributes.

I think you are confusing the Bible with the actual practice of true Christianity. The Bible has 66 separate books, and some of those have multiple contributors. So finding contradictions and actual errors is to be expected. The Koran was written by a single man. This made it a much easier task to maintain consistency. So I am not impressed by this at all.

Another error you are making is thinking that Christianity is one thing and that all Christians believe the same things. You might prove that fundamentalist Christianity is wrong; but I also think it is wrong. This does not prove to me that Islam is correct. Can you prove that Progressive Christianity is false? Now there's a challenge for you. Since we do not make idols of our "sources" as Muslums do, I think you would be hard-pressed to do so!

I don't think you understand the Quran, it was not written by man it was revealed to man by God. So too was the original Gospel although it did not meet consistency because man deviated from what God had instructed and deemed it fit to change the words of God and make an "ideal" religion for themselves. The only problem is God's religion cannot be changed and it is for all times and places.

I can prove that all sects of Christianity is wrong, unless they are Muslim they are not following what God has commanded of them to follow. Nor can they prove that the acts of worship they perform or believe are compliant with their own scriptures and teachings. If Christianity is wrong then you have to move on. The fact that you cannot prove that what you believe is from God is proof enough. Progressive Christians are a new idea, a group of people that see it necessary to offer a justification for their actions and beliefs that go against what God commands.

[kayky]

Every Muslim is guided to Islam differently, God does not guide people to other "religions", as Islam is the only religion of truth.

And many Christians believe that Christianity is the "only religion of truth" and that God leads people to Christianity. Your claim is no more valid than theirs. Both sides are suffering from the same delusion.

So why do you go against what your church teaches of hell??

I am an Episcopalian. We practice progressive Christianity. Most Episcopalians do not believe in hell.

It would have to be all of the above, can you give me an example.

That would be a matter of opinion. I love Shakespeare and think many of his sonnets fit the bill. But "perfect" in most cases is a subjective concept.

Then how can you make such an assertion based on stereotypical generalization, if it is not a teaching of Islam and considered one of the major sins to idolize an object in association with God, then why would any Muslim do such a thing? What you see from Muslims is the pride we as Muslims feel in our religion. To claim that burning the Quran is not disrespectful is turning a blind eye and adding falseness of their claim with which they have filled the world, namely the peace that the civilizations call for is based on respect for others and not transgressing against them. What kind of peace can such people stand for and want?! What respect do they claim to show? They want us to respect them and honour them, and even to bow and prostrate to them, but all they do is make fun of us and mock us and wrong us even more. The reality as is witnesses by the some American people is that they do not want peace. So it would be unfair to point the finger at the ones that are self defending rather you should be pointing the finger at the perpetrator.

I think Islamic countries have brought trouble to their own door. They are at the core of most of the problems the world now faces. It seems as though Islam does not teach how to live in an enlightened, civilized world.

That these men started these religions cannot be denied. But you want to add the claim that God "gave" Islam to Muhammad. This is your claim to prove.

You are the one who claims that God gave Islam to Muhammad, not I. It is your claim to prove. It is obvious that Muhammad wrote the Koran. That does not have to proven. Can you prove that God told him what to write?

Yes I would agree with all except Islam, you haven't proved this yet. As I have said the original Torah, Gospel and Quran were all from God, however what the Jews and Christians are following today is not what God has instructed. They have changed their scriptures and gone against the teachings of God. Islam has not been changed and it will remain unchanged till the end of time.

It is pointless to debate with you as long as you think it is your opponent's job to disprove your claims instead of the other way around! Does it not embarrass you to come to a debate board without understanding the rules of debate and continue to do so even after this has been pointed out to you many times?

It is not simply burning the Quran, it is what comes along with this for example causing hatred and enmity towards Muslims, mocking our Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) who is the best man who ever walked on this earth, and he is the leader of the earlier and later generations, may the blessings and peace of my Lord be upon him. This insolence is nothing strange on the part of those that hate and envy the Muslims, rather it is to be expected of them. Moreover such crimes such as mockery of the Prophet (peace be upon him) will not be tolerated and we as Muslims are prepared to sacrifice our lives in defence of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Therefore you can call this what you wish the bottom line is we are those that stand up for justice.

What you are demonstrating to me is that Islam is a religion for the immature mind and the uncivilized society.

Yes, but what we need to examine is what evidence can they provide in support of what they say being considered from God.

We can't examine your evidence either because you have offered none.

It's not the disagreement of Christians it's the disagreement with their scripture and it's teachings, and the idea that Christianity is the word of God. It's not illogical at all, because God makes it very clear who is Muslim and who is not, this is not something that is coming from our own judgement. We are full aware of our duties as Muslims, anything that goes against the teachings of Islam without any supported evidence for an action or belief could not be regarded as Islamic.

You have been enslaved by a book and criticize me for refusing to be a slave!

How does the Eucharist give you a direct experience with God?? Where does Jesus (peace be upon him) instruct you to do this in the bible??

Along with baptism, it is the earliest of Christian rituals and is based on the words of Jesus at his last Passover meal. It is the symbolic idea of "consuming" the body and blood of Christ that opens the mind and heart to a direct experience of God.

Quoting from the Quran is proof enough seeing as we are discussing that the Quran is the word of God. Our proof is our sources you would need to find faults in them if you are to prove it otherwise. As I can find contradictions and errors in your scriptures. Denial and refusal to believe the truth does not make you correct. Refuting the evidence will.

It may be enough evidence for you, but it is meaningless in a debate. Since you refuse to offer real evidence, I do not see how I can continue to debate with you.

We are saying the Quran is true because of it's content and information it contains, we are saying it is true because of all the evidence I have stated earlier, we are saying it is true as it contains no contradictions and errors in it, we are saying it is true due to the signs of the universe, we are saying it is true due to the Prophets and Messengers that have come to mankind with their miracles that were witnessed by many, we are saying it is true due to the Quran being the same unaltered Quran from day one. We are saying it's true because God has preserved it. To prove all this what do we provide as evidence, obviously what God says not what we say, hence the Quran and Sunnah. Our sources not man made sources.

This is all meaningless as I have pointed out to you many times. You do not understand even the most basic rules of logic.

I don't understand why you would call yourself a practicing Christian if you do not follow your own scripture?? One thing that defrintiates Islam to man made religions, is the fact that God has given us details explanations about what is to come in the future and we have narrations that deal with matters of the unseen both past and present. Some of these things we have experienced in our lifetime. How would any of this be known 1400 years ago?

I do not expect you to understand me. Even your understanding of religion in general seems shallow and lacking in wisdom.

How do you communicate with God?? I'm trying to understand this, please have patience with me. So what your saying, correct me if I am wrong is that you ignore what God expects of you and you wait to experience life and decide according to your own logic what God wants from you, and then just leave it at love??

When I become still and open my mind and heart to God, we commune with each other. It is an experience of all-encompassing love and union. There are never any expectations nor demands. Just as Jesus taught, love is the basis of true morality.

Sorry about that I was referring to all the points of proof I provided regarding Islam being the true religion.

Maybe in the make-believe world in which you have chosen to live, but not here.

Quoting from the Quran and Sunnah is the only evidence, as this is the truth.

Some do some don't, worst case scenarios suffer from the effects of Jinn as there are signs that are present in the one that is effected.

This is primitive superstition.

Do you ever stop and question that you might be wrong and I am right?? If I am right which I claim then what argument can you present to me other than proving what I say is wrong to make what you are saying correct?

Once again. This is pointless. You just keep repeating the same non-evidence over and over. And nope. It has never entered my mind that you are correct. A Muslum is the last thing I would ever want to be.

Nope, not really - the fact that Merriam Webster's dictionary is the 11th edition of the Collegiate Dictionary explains it all, furthermore this dictionary is always being revised and expanded with corrections and improvements and the use of additional words. This cannot be considered free from any errors at all.

This is just plain silly. The only reason the dictionary is "revised" is because language is constantly evolving.

Kayky: Once again, you prove that you do not understand debate nor logic. I have tried with patience to instruct you, but you simply ignore it.

A continual use of this excuse won't get you very far.

It is clear to me that you do not know how to debate and never intend to learn any better. Therefore, I see no point in continuing this debate with you.

lKayky: Read any of the Old Testament prophets. Read the Revelation of John in the New Testament. I don't actually believe that either the Bible or the Koran can predict the future. My point is that both books make these empty claims.

I want verses from the bible, please

God does give us details of what is to come in the future some of which have past some we are facing today and some major signs we are waiting to happen. All of what the Quran and Sunnah have evidence of this has happened and are yet to happen. There is no way that any person could of known any of this and there is no way that all of these things could have happened with such accuracy.

Quoting the Bible as evidence of anything is as pointless as your quoting of the Koran. You just don't get it.

Kayky: I only see the character of God criticizing other characters in the Old Testament. I can't think of a single example in the New Testament where the character of God criticizes any other character at all.

Didn't you say that:

"Characters in the Bible are also criticized and do embarrassing things. This proves nothing."

Umm. The Old Testament is part of the Bible.

Regardless whether you believe the Quran is evidence or not, you should be able to discredit it. Anything that is based on an atoms weight of falsehood is able to be discredited. As I said the rules of debate do not specify what is considered as evidence, my evidence is the Quran even though you think otherwise, your evidence is the bible and man made speculations which I disregard as evidence so how would we ever solve this issue, by discrediting each others evidence so we can see what information is right and what is wrong. This is the line of debate and the best approach.

You can't redefine what a debate is just to suit your own purposes.

But you would need to go to extremes above what is not permitted in your religion for it to be considered as idolatry. Something you cannot prove.

I don't even know what this means.

Nope it's not ridiculous at all. A true religion a religion based on truth is fighting for the right reasons. When the ideas that people follow are all produced by human beings and the systems and laws that control their lives are all made up by human beings, then they are fighting for the wrong things. But when there is a divine system and law, you are fighting for injustice and oppression as stated by God and not man.

This is why Islam is so dangerous and such a threat to true peace and true justice.

[kayky]

Hal, I see no point in continuing this--whatever this has been.

[Burninglight]

I have to agree with this

Muslims say the Bible is corrupted because it goes against the Quran; you see Muhammad never said it was corrupted, maybe because he couldn't read. But what many Muslim don't tell you or many don't know is that they don't have an original Quran.

Uthman who was no prophet, burned all the originals he could find and recompiled the one Muslims use today. Uthman used Hafsah's original (The help of text) to recompile the Quran after destroying the originals others had. The clincher is Marwah destroyed the original that Uthman used to recompile the Quran. There are abrogations in the Quran Muslims have now. Imagine, Uthman was Allah's editor. Moreover, Quran means recitation so the Quran wasn't put together by memory or recitation that Muslims use and recite today. It is the Quran that tries to bring corruption to the Bible, but it can't and has many issues of its own.

I believe Muhammad wouldn't have agreed with what Uthman did. So when Muslims say the Bible is corrupted, they are throwing rocks in their glass houses. It makes no logical sense to believe God could preserve His word now when He couldn't preserve the words He gave first. Muslims foolishly expect Christians to believe that man's power to corrupt was greater than God's to preserve in the past.

[HaLi8993]

Kayky

And many Christians believe that Christianity is the "only religion of truth" and that God leads people to Christianity. Your claim is no more valid than theirs. Both sides are suffering from the same delusion.

The only difference is Kayky, is that the falseness of Christianity in terms of it's texts being changed and manipulated are evident whereas this is not the case with Islam.

I am an Episcopalian. We practice progressive Christianity. Most Episcopalians do not believe in hell.

That's the problem, Progressive Christians believe it is correct to reform God's given scripture. Toning down on personal sin. Maybe the reason they do not believe in Hell.

That would be a matter of opinion. I love Shakespeare and think many of his sonnets fit the bill. But "perfect" in most cases is a subjective concept.

Being free of contradictions and error is not a matter of opinion. There are two options in this matter, either it is words of truth or words of falsehood.

Can you give me an example, please.

I think Islamic countries have brought trouble to their own door. They are at the core of most of the problems the world now faces. It seems as though Islam does not teach how to live in an enlightened, civilized world.

How have they done so?? Most of the problems that the world is facing is due too countries such as America and it's allies that try and justify it's history long destructive oriented policies. Last time I checked it was America that was a lead player in starting the wars. America needs to look and combat it's own social problems that exist within it's boarders rather than imposing it's values and beliefs on others. These are the moral standards of what religion??

Islam is the best solution for all the worlds problems.

You are the one who claims that God gave Islam to Muhammad, not I. It is your claim to prove. It is obvious that Muhammad wrote the Koran. That does not have to proven. Can you prove that God told him what to write?

I have already proven this, I have given you a list of points that testify that Islam is the true religion of God, and how the Quran could not have been written by Muhammad (peace be upon him) one being that he was illiterate, two that he was criticized in the Quran by God. But again you fail to acknowledge what I show you and reject it based on your own assumptions that my proof cannot be from the very book we as Muslims believe in.

It is pointless to debate with you as long as you think it is your opponent's job to disprove your claims instead of the other way around! Does it not embarrass you to come to a debate board without understanding the rules of debate and continue to do so even after this has been pointed out to you many times?

I have already given my side in terms of what I consider as truth, it is you that has failed to deliver any truth in what you believe to be from God or any evidence of what I say to be false. I come with the truth, why would I feel embarrassed?, the ones that should feel embarrassed are the ones that have no answers and live a life based on personal biased opinions claiming what they believe is right for all.

What you are demonstrating to me is that Islam is a religion for the immature mind and the uncivilized society.

What you have demonstrated to me in your response is that you have very little knowledge of Islam and that you fail to realize the difference between justice and injustice.

We can't examine your evidence either because you have offered none.

I'm sorry if what I have provided doesn't fit your criteria as to what we as Muslims consider proof and evidence but you should still be able to disprove what I say, especially when you consider it to be false, which you haven't and cannot do.

You have been enslaved by a book and criticize me for refusing to be a slave!

Nope not at all, we as Muslims willing submit ourselves to none other than the truth as we are able to distinguish between what is right and wrong. As I have said before if you are not a slave of God you are a slave to something else.

Along with baptism, it is the earliest of Christian rituals and is based on the words of Jesus at his last Passover meal. It is the symbolic idea of "consuming" the body and blood of Christ that opens the mind and heart to a direct experience of God.

How is this a direct experience with God? Can you provide any evidence that Jesus (peace be upon him) allowed such as thing? Christianity teaches that Jesus (peace be upon him) died for the sins of mankind, the sins of the past, present and future. Every good Christian believes that their sins are forgiven by the blessed name and blood of Jesus (peace be upon him). The problem with this however is that this is contrary to not only the teachings of Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) but to the teachings of the bible itself. Even the idea put forth by the Christians that all children are born with the black stain of sin runs contrary to this event in the ministry of Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him).

It may be enough evidence for you, but it is meaningless in a debate. Since you refuse to offer real evidence, I do not see how I can continue to debate with you.

Why would this be meaningless? Are we not free to provide what we consider as evidence isn't that the whole purpose? Seeing as you cannot refute what I have presented then likewise I feel the same.

This is all meaningless as I have pointed out to you many times. You do not understand even the most basic rules of logic.

This is the ultimate logic!!

What you have pointed out to me is your reluctancy to prove that what I say is wrong.

I do not expect you to understand me. Even your understanding of religion in general seems shallow and lacking in wisdom.

Mmmmm don't think so....understanding what God wants from you is not changing his religion according to our own logic rather applying what is commanded of you from God and not man.

When I become still and open my mind and heart to God, we commune with each other. It is an experience of all-encompassing love and union. There are never any expectations nor demands. Just as Jesus taught, love is the basis of true morality.

The only thing that will be accepted by God is what He has prescribed to mankind and is justified through sound evidence of His scripture, there are no expectations and demands because you wish not to have any, this is contrary to the teachings of Jesus (peace be upon him). Jesus (peace be upon him) taught more than love. Something Progressive Christians choose to reject, ignore and change.

Maybe in the make-believe world in which you have chosen to live, but not here.

What I find to be make-believe are the living standards of those that reject the truth about reality.

This is primitive superstition.

What makes you think this?

Once again. This is pointless. You just keep repeating the same non-evidence over and over. And nope. It has never entered my mind that you are correct. A Muslum is the last thing I would ever want to be.

That is your choice, but you haven't answered my question. What evidence can you provide that what you are saying is correct?

This is just plain silly. The only reason the dictionary is "revised" is because language is constantly evolving.

This is true, however corrections and improvements are also included in this revision.

It is clear to me that you do not know how to debate and never intend to learn any better. Therefore, I see no point in continuing this debate with you.

It is clear that you will continue to repeat the same thing. Don't mean to be rude but I must admit that this is getting rather boring.

Quoting the Bible as evidence of anything is as pointless as your quoting of the Koran. You just don't get it.

I want to confirm what you say is true, why would this be pointless, we are not people that believe, follow, abide and adhere to God's laws based on blind faith.

Umm. The Old Testament is part of the Bible.

Then why are you not a follower of the old testament?

You can't redefine what a debate is just to suit your own purposes.

Nor can you!

I don't even know what this means.

This is the meaning of the definition you gave me earlier.

This is why Islam is so dangerous and such a threat to true peace and true justice.

What you consider as true peace and justice is not what God has commanded. Islam is the essence of peace and justice.

[HaLi8993]

Kayky

Hal, I see no point in continuing this--whatever this has been.

No worries Kayky, I understand, it was nice chatting with you.

[HaLi8993]

Burninglight

I have to agree with this

Muslims say the Bible is corrupted because it goes against the Quran; you see Muhammad never said it was corrupted, maybe because he couldn't read. But what many Muslim don't tell you or many don't know is that they don't have an original Quran.

Uthman who was no prophet, burned all the originals he could find and recompiled the one Muslims use today. Uthman used Hafsah's original (The help of text) to recompile the Quran after destroying the originals others had. The clincher is Marwah destroyed the original that Uthman used to recompile the Quran. There are abrogations in the Quran Muslims have now. Imagine, Uthman was Allah's editor. Moreover, Quran means recitation so the Quran wasn't put together by memory or recitation that Muslims use and recite today. It is the Quran that tries to bring corruption to the Bible, but it can't and has many issues of its own.

I believe Muhammad wouldn't have agreed with what Uthman did. So when Muslims say the Bible is corrupted, they are throwing rocks in their glass houses. It makes no logical sense to believe God could preserve His word now when He couldn't preserve the words He gave first. Muslims foolishly expect Christians to believe that man's power to corrupt was greater than God's to preserve in the past.

Hey Burninglight, do you ever get tired of repeating the same things? This is actually something that is well known to Muslims there is actually many lessons to learn by what Uthman did with the Quran. You will find in Al-Bukhaari, Hadeeth no. 4987, from Anas ibn Maalik that Uthmaan ibn Affaan (may Allaah be pleased with him) ordered Zayd ibn Thaabit, Abd-Allaah ibn al-Zubayr, Saeed ibn al-Aas and Abd al-Rahmaan ibn al-Haarith ibn Hishaam to make copies of the Mus-hafs. Uthmaan said to the three Qurashi men: If you differ with Zayd ibn Thaabit concerning anything of the Quraan, then write it in the dialect of Quraysh, for it was revealed in their tongue. They did that, then when they had copied the pages in Mus-hafs, Uthmaan returned the pages to Hafsah, and he sent to each country one of the Mus-hafs that they had copied, and he ordered that all other copies of the Quraan on pages or in books be burned.

There are no variances or missing parts in the Noble Quran. These are all false and baseless assumptions from some anti-Islamics. What Uthman did was standardize the Noble Quran with its original Quraishi dialect being essential in keeping it as a perfect Holy Book.

The entire Quran was memorized along with many of his followers. The Noble Quran during the times of our beloved Prophet (peace be upon him) was carefully preserved and protected from man's corruption. It was documented on paper and it was entirely memorized by many.

We must know that according to Islam Allah Almighty Himself is protecting the Noble Quran until the Day of Judgment from man's corruption Burninglight:

QURAN: 15:9

"We [Allah] have, without doubt, sent down the Message [The Noble Quran]; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption)"

The corruption of the bible is clear not so with the Quran, as the Quran was preserved from the beginning until the end of time, as much as you would wish it were not. Sorry Burninglight!