Non-Circular reasons for believing in the Bible.

[help3434]

I often see people quote Bible verses about scripture when asked why they believe in the Bible. Of course arguing that the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true is circular. Are there any non-circular reasons for believing in the Bible?

[TheTruth101]

Anybody else willing to share their reasons for believing in the Bible?

Sure. In no particular order:
> It seems true to me on a purely intuitive, subjective level. That is, the truth of it speaks to me with authority and therefore I accept it on faith. Most of us believe in lots of other basic ideas – e.g., the validity of logic, the reliability or our senses to accurately perceive the external world, the intelligibility of the universe, or the existence of other minds – for similar reasons. As Gödel took some pains to demonstrate, truth ultimately transcends proof.

I am glad that you admit that this reason is subjective. You will forgive those of us who do not share your subjective opinion. Does it really make intuitive sense that the all-knowing creator of the universe would create intelligent beings, set the punishment for disobedience to eternal torment, knowing that obedience would be impossible to achieve. Then to rectify this gross injustice, become a human himself, so that the other humans could kill him thus paying the price for humanity's sin. And then this sacrifice would be only effective to the minority who believe this story? Really?

> I believe the authors to be relatively intelligent men recording their experiences in good faith. Conversely I see no good reason to think the Bible's various authors a host of dolts or knaves setting out to convert or deceive the rest of us for as-yet unexplained reasons.

I see no reason to presume this. Yes the writers were intelligent and male. But there is no reason to presume good faith. The writers of the Gospels, for example, were writing with the express purpose of convincing their readers that Jesus of Nazareth who died decades prior to their writing, was the Messiah promised by the Jewish prophets. They ripped passages of scripture out of context and distorted their meanings in order to make their case. Paul, who claims authority because of a vision and not having actually met Jesus alive, disagrees publicly with Jesus' own followers and apostles, teaching contrary to Jesus that the law had been set aside for Christians.

> Three of the most significant miracle claims in the Bible remain unaffected (and arguably even bolstered) by the accumulation of knowledge bearing on the claims:

[mrow]Miracle Claim [mcol]In the Bible [mcol]Accumulated knowledge [row]the creation of the universe [col]Earth and water existed prior to light A world-wide flood[col]Light, billions of years, Earth then water A series of partial ice ages, completely neglected by the Biblical writers[row]the creation of life [col]seed and fruit bearing plants then aquatic animals and birds then cattle and other land animals [col]microbial life, plants and animals evolving in parallel, land animals prior to birds [row]the resurrection of Jesus Christ [col]Which day? The earthquake and zombies in Jerusalem The empty tomb The ascension into the clouds [col]It is difficult to reconcile the Easter narrative to the prophesy of three days AND three nights No contemporary evidence of the events which allegedly happened when Jesus died No historical reason to believe that such a tomb existed or that the Romans would have allowed Jesus to be buried. No historical evidence to the existence of Joseph of Aramethea. Jesus ascended into heaven in the clouds. We have been above the clouds since.

In response to the microsoft Word or Excel work.


The first column. You are forgetting it is said in the Bible there was HEAVENS, then the Earth.
The "light" can be trasnalted to "heavens".


Second column.

Microbial life = "Spirit" (life) of God was hovering over the water.
"Then there was plants that bear seeds according to their various kinds, and trees that bear fruit according to their various kinds."


Still second column.

Land animals before the Birds. = And it is said the "Spirit" of God was hovering over the waters before the sky,animals. Thus Christianity and Bible represents God the Father, Jesus the begotten Son, and the Holy Spirit as ONE. (Spirit/ God)

And it just happens so the Holy Spirit is a bird and God, invisible yet existed before the land animals.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 264 by help3434]

And of course math is also a good reason to reject the Noah's Arc story. All of those animals wouldn't have been able to fit on the ark, much less live on it.

I haven't followed the thread that closely - did you post the math anywhere?

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 264 by help3434]

And of course math is also a good reason to reject the Noah's Arc story. All of those animals wouldn't have been able to fit on the ark, much less live on it.

I haven't followed the thread that closely - did you post the math anywhere?

I guess some people have tried to do the math. http://www.skepdic.com/noahsark.html
But what's the point? There's always the miracle factor to contend with.

All those animals (not sure if it was two of each or 7.

Genesis 6:19-21:

And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.

Genesis 7:2-3:

Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

And all that food. What did the predators eat?

But as I say, it doesn't matter because miracles take up the slack whenever the math looks problematical.

But, really. Why the ark at all? God supposedly created the Earth, if not the entire universe, in just six days. The animals only took... what? A day or two?

So, it's easy. Just flood the whole world, killing all the animals and all the people except Noah and the boys, then recreate the animals when the water settles. No ark necessary.

Or... the more plausible: "Hello! Anybody home? It's a MYTH."

[TheTruth101]

Anybody else willing to share their reasons for believing in the Bible?

Sure. In no particular order:
> It seems true to me on a purely intuitive, subjective level. That is, the truth of it speaks to me with authority and therefore I accept it on faith. Most of us believe in lots of other basic ideas – e.g., the validity of logic, the reliability or our senses to accurately perceive the external world, the intelligibility of the universe, or the existence of other minds – for similar reasons. As Gödel took some pains to demonstrate, truth ultimately transcends proof.

I am glad that you admit that this reason is subjective. You will forgive those of us who do not share your subjective opinion. Does it really make intuitive sense that the all-knowing creator of the universe would create intelligent beings, set the punishment for disobedience to eternal torment, knowing that obedience would be impossible to achieve. Then to rectify this gross injustice, become a human himself, so that the other humans could kill him thus paying the price for humanity's sin. And then this sacrifice would be only effective to the minority who believe this story? Really?

> I believe the authors to be relatively intelligent men recording their experiences in good faith. Conversely I see no good reason to think the Bible's various authors a host of dolts or knaves setting out to convert or deceive the rest of us for as-yet unexplained reasons.

I see no reason to presume this. Yes the writers were intelligent and male. But there is no reason to presume good faith. The writers of the Gospels, for example, were writing with the express purpose of convincing their readers that Jesus of Nazareth who died decades prior to their writing, was the Messiah promised by the Jewish prophets. They ripped passages of scripture out of context and distorted their meanings in order to make their case. Paul, who claims authority because of a vision and not having actually met Jesus alive, disagrees publicly with Jesus' own followers and apostles, teaching contrary to Jesus that the law had been set aside for Christians.

> Three of the most significant miracle claims in the Bible remain unaffected (and arguably even bolstered) by the accumulation of knowledge bearing on the claims:

[mrow]Miracle Claim [mcol]In the Bible [mcol]Accumulated knowledge [row]the creation of the universe [col]Earth and water existed prior to light A world-wide flood[col]Light, billions of years, Earth then water A series of partial ice ages, completely neglected by the Biblical writers[row]the creation of life [col]seed and fruit bearing plants then aquatic animals and birds then cattle and other land animals [col]microbial life, plants and animals evolving in parallel, land animals prior to birds [row]the resurrection of Jesus Christ [col]Which day? The earthquake and zombies in Jerusalem The empty tomb The ascension into the clouds [col]It is difficult to reconcile the Easter narrative to the prophesy of three days AND three nights No contemporary evidence of the events which allegedly happened when Jesus died No historical reason to believe that such a tomb existed or that the Romans would have allowed Jesus to be buried. No historical evidence to the existence of Joseph of Aramethea. Jesus ascended into heaven in the clouds. We have been above the clouds since.

In response to the microsoft Word or Excel work.


The first column. You are forgetting it is said in the Bible there was HEAVENS, then the Earth.
The "light" can be trasnalted to "heavens".


Second column.

Microbial life = "Spirit" (life) of God was hovering over the water.
"Then there was plants that bear seeds according to their various kinds, and trees that bear fruit according to their various kinds."


Still second column.

Land animals before the Birds. = And it is said the "Spirit" of God was hovering over the waters before the sky,animals. Thus Christianity and Bible represents God the Father, Jesus the begotten Son, and the Holy Spirit as ONE. (Spirit/ God)

And it just happens so the Holy Spirit is a bird and God, invisible yet existed before the land animals.

Still second column.


Genesis

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.� 21


So its clearly seen here that living creatures on earth "land animals" were created before the birds ...

So im kind of lost, what was your point of dissaproving the Bible again?

[help3434]

Genesis

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.� 21


So its clearly seen here that living creatures on earth "land animals" were created before the birds ...

So im kind of lost, what was your point of dissaproving the Bible again?

How do you go from "Let the water teem with living creatures" to land animals?

[TheTruth101]

Genesis

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.� 21


So its clearly seen here that living creatures on earth "land animals" were created before the birds ...

So im kind of lost, what was your point of dissaproving the Bible again?

How do you go from "Let the water teem with living creatures" to land animals?

nd God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.� 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind.



Some sea animals are able to be a land animal as well. For instance, the penguins.

[help3434]

I guess some people have tried to do the math. http://www.skepdic.com/noahsark.html
But what's the point? There's always the miracle factor to contend with.

Good point, if Jesus can magically feed thousands of people with a few loaves and fish, then God can magically can make millions of animals fit on the ark. No need to worry about plausibility when you believe in miracles.

[McCulloch]

> Three of the most significant miracle claims in the Bible remain unaffected (and arguably even bolstered) by the accumulation of knowledge bearing on the claims:

[mrow]Miracle Claim [mcol]In the Bible [mcol]Accumulated knowledge [row]the creation of the universe [col]Earth and water existed prior to light A world-wide flood[col]Light, billions of years, Earth then water A series of partial ice ages, completely neglected by the Biblical writers[row]the creation of life [col]seed and fruit bearing plants then aquatic animals and birds then cattle and other land animals [col]microbial life, plants and animals evolving in parallel, land animals prior to birds [row]the resurrection of Jesus Christ [col]Which day? The earthquake and zombies in Jerusalem The empty tomb The ascension into the clouds [col]It is difficult to reconcile the Easter narrative to the prophesy of three days AND three nights No contemporary evidence of the events which allegedly happened when Jesus died No historical reason to believe that such a tomb existed or that the Romans would have allowed Jesus to be buried. No historical evidence to the existence of Joseph of Aramethea. Jesus ascended into heaven in the clouds. We have been above the clouds since.

In response to the microsoft Word or Excel work.

Actually, it is just a table.

The first column. You are forgetting it is said in the Bible there was HEAVENS, then the Earth.
The "light" can be trasnalted to "heavens".

Let's see how that works for us.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then God said, “Let there be heavens�; and there ware heavens. God saw that the heavens ware good; and God separated the heavens from the darkness.

Does that make any sense?

Second column.

Microbial life = "Spirit" (life) of God was hovering over the water.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the microbial life of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then God said, “Let there be heavens�; and there ware heavens. God saw that the heavens ware good; and God separated the heavens from the darkness.

Wonderful. This makes even less sense now.

"Then there was plants that bear seeds according to their various kinds, and trees that bear fruit according to their various kinds."


Still second column.

Land animals before the Birds. = And it is said the "Spirit" of God was hovering over the waters before the sky,animals. Thus Christianity and Bible represents God the Father, Jesus the begotten Son, and the Holy Spirit as ONE. (Spirit/ God)

And it just happens so the Holy Spirit is a bird and God, invisible yet existed before the land animals.

The Holy Spirit of God is not a bird. The Holy Spirit appeared as a bird once. The Holy Spirit also appeared as tongues of fire. The birds spoken of in Genesis 1 day five, I think are meant to be, well, birds. They are said to have been created before land animals.

[McCulloch]

Anybody else willing to share their reasons for believing in the Bible?

Because the Bible is the truth and the word.

There you have it folks. The debater known as TheTruth101 has a really good reason to believe the Bible. The Bible is the truth. He knows this because ... wait for it ... The Bible is the truth. Well, thanks for that. We can all go home now. All you need to do to successfully argue the Christian faith is to assert as true anything you are asked to prove.

[Inigo Montoya]

Thank you.

In my opinion his and a half dozen other members' posts should be grounds for banning half the time. There's no debate, there's no contribution, just complete and utter nonsensical disregard for what it means to have honestly critical dialogue.

Don't really care how that goes over either.

There's a handful of you that do the debate setting proud. The rest may as well be posting blogs to an evangelical website.

Lastly, since I'm already skirting disaster, I'd also add that while I'm glad this forum exists it sickens me somewhat that it has to.

Its 2013. Two thousand years have passed and we can't let go of this supernatural absurdity yet.