The Gay Denomination?

[99percentatheism]

The Gay Denomination.

For those people that desire same gender sexual behavior or thoughts, AND that claim to be a Christian and claim that their beliefs and theology can fit the New Testament witness, instead of waging an endless, fruitless and vicious war on other Christians - that will NEVER accept their gay doctrines and dogmas . . ., - why won't they just declare a new and alternative denomination, just like Watch Tower theological adherants and Mormons?

Why the need to join forces with anti-Christian and secularist movements to attack "Bible believing" Christians?

Afterall, in referencing the New Testament, there is no justifiable comparison of sex acts to being a slave (slavery), or the charge of bigotry and hatefulness in holding that marriage is a man and a woman.

Why not just start an "Out and Proud" Gay Denomination?

[marketandchurch]

....The Left doesn't think they are destroying Christianity, they think they are saving Christians from themselves, and saving the world from Christianity.

....
If you are a conservative... then don't make the leftist naive assumption of "We'll be the exception in history." Never say Never. Who thought that Christianity would largely die out on the European continent? Being wiped off the earth is not what I'm talking about. If Europeans were at one point 90% Christian, and are now 25% Christian, it is safe to say that they are not only dying out, but have died out enough to be irrelevant in shaping society, and the world, which is all that really matters in the final analysis.

....
You appear to have a habit of making blanket statements about what you call 'the left.' The fallacy of such statements is easily demonstrated by the existence of liberal Christianity. Try googling 'liberal Christianity' or even 'left wing Christian.'

The reason for the decline in Christianity in Europe is because of an increase in education. The same trend can be seen in the U. S., tho' it is not as dramatic, it has the same cause. Conservative, fundamentalist religion, whether Christian or Islamic, is undermined by education. The same force, education, is the engine that has resulted in a majority of Americans accepting gay marriage. This is a huge shift in American politics and was recently discussed in a TIME cover story.

Not at all.

I'll relate as a Jew. Humanistic Judaism is nothing more then secular humanism(a leftist religious expression), with Jews in attendance. Likewise, the 92StreetY and Jstreet is nothing more then a Leftist organization, with Jews as its organizers and members. Equally so, Reform Judaism, which I am a member of, is nothing more then the Democratic Party Platform, with a little Hebrew sprinkled in to make it Jewish.

Christian Leftists are Leftists first, Christians second. Christianity is just their vehicle to spirituality, and a connection to God. But where Christianity and Leftism diverge, Christianity folds, and Leftism is lived out.

Take Joe Biden for example. During the vice presidential debates, he was asked how his faith inspires him. And he replied that his faith inspires him to fight on behalf of the poor (through the vehicle of the state), to rectify justice. When asked about abortion and gay marriage, he backed up and said that he does not support pushing his faith onto anyone. So in other words, where Christianity and Leftism agree, it is okay to use the government to push your views onto society. But where Christianity and Leftism disagree, it is not okay to use the government to push your view onto society... do you see the hypocrisy?

The only constant in all of this is Leftism. You can't serve two masters.

[marketandchurch]

...

The reason for the decline in Christianity in Europe is because of an increase in education. The same trend can be seen in the U. S., tho' it is not as dramatic, it has the same cause. Conservative, fundamentalist religion, whether Christian or Islamic, is undermined by education. The same force, education, is the engine that has resulted in a majority of Americans accepting gay marriage. This is a huge shift in American politics and was recently discussed in a TIME cover story.

That is the leftist assumption. This is also why Liberals do not think that we conservatives actually believe in our ideals, since their version of objectivity states that all that has gone wrong throughout history owes its roots to conservatism, & so they couldn't possibly imagine someone taking those "conservative" ideas seriously.

So they categorize us Conservatives into one of several possibilities:

• 1.) He/She doesn't know any better, is mentally inept, stupid.
  2.) He/She could know better, but is misinformed.
  3.) He/She knows better, but has bad motivations.

Conservatives are routinely thrown into the 3rd category. Our variety of folk is to Leftism, what satan worshipers is to Christianity. We know the light, but choose to be on a corporations payroll. We could simply offer up 90% of our income to feed and cloth the have-not's, but our greed has blinded us from love.

It is why we on the Right are Demons, whereas a muslim or Hindu who also opposes Gay Marriage are not necessarily looked down upon. The Left put them in the second category, as being misinformed, and are therefore excused by their "innocence." If they are extremists who go about lynching homosexuals, they may be of the first or second variety, but are still granted innocence if they are non-white, because minorities cannot be corrupt, because they don't have "power." The Left makes excuses for the "powerless," and they think their primitive ways can all be solved by smart, intellectual, evolved, and nuanced Leftist Education.

Education is therefore, there raison d'etat, and the key, in their view, to destroying ignorance, and bringing people over to leftism. Especially the type of "ignorance" that Leftists often cite Fox News as perpetuating, in what it sees as a war to "misinform" the populace, by creating ideological right-wing drones who don't know any better then the ideological drivel they've been brainwashed into regurgitating.

That's why you attach "Smart" to things like growth, and car, and democracy. To denote that you are more morally evolved and intellectually seasoned, then your conservative counterparts, because they have been "educated" in a more enlightening views then their suburban living SUV driving fascist Americans on the Right. Education is overvalued, and utterly worthless in 90% of US colleges. They don't teach you how to think, but what to think about. They are leftists seminary, meant to instruct incoming students, in how to be Leftists.

• It is not a matter of Education, but a matter of Values, that divides the Left and the Right. And that divide is unbridgeable, not because of education, but because these values we hold are antithetical to each other. You worship Diversity(Multiculturalism), and we worship E Pluribus Unum... utter opposites.

[Danmark]

...

The reason for the decline in Christianity in Europe is because of an increase in education. The same trend can be seen in the U. S., tho' it is not as dramatic, it has the same cause. Conservative, fundamentalist religion, whether Christian or Islamic, is undermined by education. The same force, education, is the engine that has resulted in a majority of Americans accepting gay marriage. This is a huge shift in American politics and was recently discussed in a TIME cover story.

That is the leftist assumption. This is also why Liberals do not think that we conservatives actually believe in our ideals, since their version of objectivity states that all that has gone wrong throughout history owes its roots to conservatism, & so they couldn't possibly imagine someone taking those "conservative" ideas seriously.

So they categorize us Conservatives into one of several possibilities:

• 1.) He/She doesn't know any better, is mentally inept, stupid.
  2.) He/She could know better, but is misinformed.
  3.) He/She knows better, but has bad motivations.

Conservatives are routinely thrown into the 3rd category. Our variety of folk is to Leftism, what satan worshipers is to Christianity. We know the light, but choose to be on a corporations payroll. We could simply offer up 90% of our income to feed and cloth the have-not's, but our greed has blinded us from love.

It is why we on the Right are Demons, whereas a muslim or Hindu who also opposes Gay Marriage are not necessarily looked down upon. The Left put them in the second category, as being misinformed, and are therefore excused by their "innocence." If they are extremists who go about lynching homosexuals, they may be of the first or second variety, but are still granted innocence if they are non-white, because minorities cannot be corrupt, because they don't have "power." The Left makes excuses for the "powerless," and they think their primitive ways can all be solved by smart, intellectual, evolved, and nuanced Leftist Education.

Education is therefore, there raison d'etat, and the key, in their view, to destroying ignorance, and bringing people over to leftism. Especially the type of "ignorance" that Leftists often cite Fox News as perpetuating, in what it sees as a war to "misinform" the populace, by creating ideological right-wing drones who don't know any better then the ideological drivel they've been brainwashed into regurgitating.

That's why you attach "Smart" to things like growth, and car, and democracy. To denote that you are more morally evolved and intellectually seasoned, then your conservative counterparts, because they have been "educated" in a more enlightening views then their suburban living SUV driving fascist Americans on the Right. Education is overvalued, and utterly worthless in 90% of US colleges. They don't teach you how to think, but what to think about. They are leftists seminary, meant to instruct incoming students, in how to be Leftists.

• It is not a matter of Education, but a matter of Values, that divides the Left and the Right. And that divide is unbridgeable, not because of education, but because these values we hold are antithetical to each other. You worship Diversity(Multiculturalism), and we worship E Pluribus Unum... utter opposites.

This whole post is a great example of the kind of 'blanketism' that dominates some among the right. Perhaps we should refer to 'Rightism.' It is more validation for the themes in Mooney's The Republican Brain. Everything in Rightism is fit into a couple of ideological categories that make it virtually impossible to analyze facts independently.

Some conservatives, perhaps a majority, seem to see things along one or two dimensions instead of actually engaging in a more complete analysis. http://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2 is one example that shows things are more complex. But complexity itself is foreign to the thinking of these folks.

Perhaps this is why for many right wing politics is wedded to fundamentalist religion. Both adherents think in terms of simplistic ideology rather than independent analysis.

But you have sidestepped the main point, which is your claim, '...The Left doesn't think they are destroying Christianity, they think they are saving Christians from themselves, and saving the world from Christianity. ' Both you and 99% engage in this assumption that there is no such thing as Liberal or Progressive Christianity. These folks are both Christian and against gay bashing. They embrace the homosexual community as fellow Christians and are willing to fight for their rights.

The negative correlations between education and both fundamentalist religion and voting Republican have been clearly established.

[marketandchurch]

The negative correlations between education and both fundamentalist religion and voting Republican have been clearly established.

It is not a negative attitude against education. It is a negative attitude towards a Leftist reframing of the world. Republicans do not have antipathy against the hard sciences. It is the social sciences, which is not science at all, but rather, a collection of focuses that are reinterpreted through a leftist view of the world.

You cannot argue for the intellectual legitimacy of:

the chicano studies
the queer studies
the women studies
the black studies
the jewish studies

Even legitimate branches of the social sciences, such as psychology, history, anthropology, linguistics, and law, have all been severely perverted to advance the cause of Leftism. Nothing within the academics has been spared leftist revision.

[marketandchurch]

But you have sidestepped the main point, which is your claim, '...The Left doesn't think they are destroying Christianity, they think they are saving Christians from themselves, and saving the world from Christianity. ' Both you and 99% engage in this assumption that there is no such thing as Liberal or Progressive Christianity. These folks are both Christian and against gay bashing. They embrace the homosexual community as fellow Christians and are willing to fight for their rights.

One can be a conservative christian, and be opposed to gay bashing, and even support gay marriage.

My argument that progressive Christians don't exist is not predicated on any particular issue, but rather, the sum totality of one's positions.

And just about every Leftist Christian is Leftist in their religious outlook. Look at the leadership of most American protestant denominations. They are all very left-of-center, and certainly far left of their own congregants. And they have had the nerve to make it a church position, to vocalize opposition to the unjust occupation of Palestine, by Israeli's? The selective nature of Progressive Christianity means that their Christian identity is, if not irrelevant, totally non-existent.

There is no instance wherein Christian Leftists differs with Leftism, even though the gulf is quite wide... a Christian on the Left never tells the Left where they are wrong(in accordance to their Christianity). They instead make things work, by folding to the demands of Leftism. Every. Single. Time.

Justice demands you don't favor the poor. Social justice demands you do. And Christian Leftists are Leftists first and foremost, so they don't champion justice, but rather, social justice.

[marketandchurch]

This whole post is a great example of the kind of 'blanketism' that dominates some among the right. Perhaps we should refer to 'Rightism.' It is more validation for the themes in Mooney's The Republican Brain. Everything in Rightism is fit into a couple of ideological categories that make it virtually impossible to analyze facts independently.

Some conservatives, perhaps a majority, seem to see things along one or two dimensions instead of actually engaging in a more complete analysis. http://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2 is one example that shows things are more complex. But complexity itself is foreign to the thinking of these folks.

Perhaps this is why for many right wing politics is wedded to fundamentalist religion. Both adherents think in terms of simplistic ideology rather than independent analysis.

So my analysis isn't independent? Your arguments and thinking is complex? LOL.

Are you afraid to take on things I bring up? If you aren't dismissing me with "blanketism," you are describing my personhood. But never once do you engage my statements in the realm of ideas. I can take your ideas seriously. I would kind of like the same in the other direction.

The Left doesn't like labels, that is a fact. You also don't think of yourself as an ideology, which is even more bizarre, considering how ideological all of your positions are. You instead divide the world not by but different ideological ways of viewing the world, but by smart versus not smart, educated versus uneducated, informed versus uninformed, which is a division that does not accurately clarify the Left-Right divide.

I don't know why you see my calling of leftism, a religion, as an attack. It should be viewed as either true, or untrue, and if untrue, you are more then welcome to debate your side of things. Which you haven't... other then to dismiss me and my arguments, every step of the way.

I don't mind rhetoric when it is accompanied with substance. I need a little more substance Danmark... and for you to deal with the issues I raise, otherwise I'll assume you have no intention of meaningful dialogue. But to dismiss people who challenge your faith in leftism.

[Danmark]

....
I don't know why you see my calling of leftism, a religion, as an attack. It should be viewed as either true, or untrue, and if untrue, you are more then welcome to debate your side of things. Which you haven't... other then to dismiss me and my arguments, every step of the way.

I don't mind rhetoric when it is accompanied with substance. I need a little more substance Danmark... and for you to deal with the issues I raise, otherwise I'll assume you have no intention of meaningful dialogue. But to dismiss people who challenge your faith in leftism.

Where to start, when you cobble together so many inaccurate statements and projections? So let's just take an obvious one. Your calling 'Leftism' a religion is just an inaccurate use of language. You even admitted you were wrong to claim it was. I guess you are now back to your original position that some political position you think exists is somehow a religion. Fine. But you are projecting when you claim I see it as an attack. I was merely correcting your poor use of words and labels as a substitute for analysis.

Then you whine about substance and that your arguments are not taken seriously. The simplistic marriage of religious fundamentalism with the politics of the right combined with denial of the reality of science and the discipline of economics is just that: too simplistic and a way to avoid actually analyzing facts. It results in the American Taliban. And no, it is does not merit being taken seriously, except as a threat to the freedom and prosperity of us all.

The classic example of this is when the Tea Party wing of the GOP successfully bullied Congress to delay raising the debt ceiling until the financial markets lost faith and down graded U.S. debt instruments. Whether it is economics or religion, the American Taliban has simple ideological solutions to everything and those solutions are not just wrong, they make things worse.

[Danmark]

But you have sidestepped the main point, which is your claim, '...The Left doesn't think they are destroying Christianity, they think they are saving Christians from themselves, and saving the world from Christianity. ' Both you and 99% engage in this assumption that there is no such thing as Liberal or Progressive Christianity. These folks are both Christian and against gay bashing. They embrace the homosexual community as fellow Christians and are willing to fight for their rights.

One can be a conservative christian, and be opposed to gay bashing, and even support gay marriage.

My argument that progressive Christians don't exist is not predicated on any particular issue, but rather, the sum totality of one's positions.

And just about every Leftist Christian is Leftist in their religious outlook. Look at the leadership of most American protestant denominations. They are all very left-of-center, and certainly far left of their own congregants. And they have had the nerve to make it a church position, to vocalize opposition to the unjust occupation of Palestine, by Israeli's? The selective nature of Progressive Christianity means that their Christian identity is, if not irrelevant, totally non-existent.

There is no instance wherein Christian Leftists differs with Leftism, even though the gulf is quite wide... a Christian on the Left never tells the Left where they are wrong(in accordance to their Christianity). They instead make things work, by folding to the demands of Leftism. Every. Single. Time.

Justice demands you don't favor the poor. Social justice demands you do. And Christian Leftists are Leftists first and foremost, so they don't champion justice, but rather, social justice.

First you admit you are arguing progressive Christians don't exist, then you complain about this 'non existent' group of Christians because they somehow don't care about the poor or in 'justice' in the way you approve of or in the way you want to define terms. You should try rereading some of the stuff you write. Better yet, reread it before you post it. Your frequent self contradictions should help you understand the lack of clarity in your thinking.

You also argue against 'social justice,' claiming it is not justice. That is a defensible position for a robber baron capitalist. But do you honestly think it conforms to what Jesus said about caring for the poor? Does it fit with the Biblical admonition to not pick the fields clean, but leave the gleanings for the poor?

Why is the American Taliban, that claims to be Christian, so opposed to helping the poor and so eager to grant farm subsidies to giant agra businesses and tax breaks for the wealthy and for corporations? How did this version of Christianity somehow get on the side of the rich and powerful and whine and complain about the poor and the helpless?

[marketandchurch]

But you have sidestepped the main point, which is your claim, '...The Left doesn't think they are destroying Christianity, they think they are saving Christians from themselves, and saving the world from Christianity. ' Both you and 99% engage in this assumption that there is no such thing as Liberal or Progressive Christianity. These folks are both Christian and against gay bashing. They embrace the homosexual community as fellow Christians and are willing to fight for their rights.

One can be a conservative christian, and be opposed to gay bashing, and even support gay marriage.

My argument that progressive Christians don't exist is not predicated on any particular issue, but rather, the sum totality of one's positions.

And just about every Leftist Christian is Leftist in their religious outlook. Look at the leadership of most American protestant denominations. They are all very left-of-center, and certainly far left of their own congregants. And they have had the nerve to make it a church position, to vocalize opposition to the unjust occupation of Palestine, by Israeli's? The selective nature of Progressive Christianity means that their Christian identity is, if not irrelevant, totally non-existent.

There is no instance wherein Christian Leftists differs with Leftism, even though the gulf is quite wide... a Christian on the Left never tells the Left where they are wrong(in accordance to their Christianity). They instead make things work, by folding to the demands of Leftism. Every. Single. Time.

Justice demands you don't favor the poor. Social justice demands you do. And Christian Leftists are Leftists first and foremost, so they don't champion justice, but rather, social justice.

First you admit you are arguing progressive Christians don't exist, then you complain about this 'non existent' group of Christians because they somehow don't care about the poor or in 'justice' in the way you approve of or in the way you want to define terms. You should try rereading some of the stuff you write. Better yet, reread it before you post it. Your frequent self contradictions should help you understand the lack of clarity in your thinking.

You also argue against 'social justice,' claiming it is not justice. That is a defensible position for a robber baron capitalist. But do you honestly think it conforms to what Jesus said about caring for the poor? Does it fit with the Biblical admonition to not pick the fields clean, but leave the gleanings for the poor?

Why is the American Taliban, that claims to be Christian, so opposed to helping the poor and so eager to grant farm subsidies to giant agra businesses and tax breaks for the wealthy and for corporations? How did this version of Christianity somehow get on the side of the rich and powerful and whine and complain about the poor and the helpless?

Our original point of difference was whether or not Leftism is a religion.

Christians on the Left still identify as Christian, but the point of their Christianity is not a religion in the traditional sense. Their Christianity is nothing but a connection to Spirituality and God. Their theology, however, is Leftism. The entire old-testament has either been reinterpreted through the prism of Leftism, or dumped entirely. Religions make moral demands on its believers. The demands that Leftism makes are the demands that a Christian Leftist follows.

Justice is blind to things such as race, class, and gender. Social Justice demands that you favor race, class, and gender. That is why the term was renamed Social Justice, to denote a leftwing agenda. As Dennis Prager has noted: "Whenever there is an "adjective" is added to an important, value-based noun, there is an agenda. There's democracy, not people's democracy. Whenever you had people's democracy, you know you didn't have democracy." And that is quite true.

Just because someone supports capitalism, they are therefore a thief? And your the one calling me out for destroying the definitions of things? and taking someone's money and giving it to someone else isn't theft? Yes we are to help the poor. The word tithing in Hebrew means Justice. A person who does not tithe, to help the poor, is an unjust and immoral person. But there is a huge distinction between helping the poor, and favoring the poor, as Social Justice dictates.

What human institution rivals Christianity, for having fed the most hungry, clothed the most naked, housed the most homeless, healed the most sick, adopted the most parent-less, educated the most uneducated, provided the most upward mobility, and civilized the most people? There is not only no close second, the remainder of the top5 do not even combine to be within spitting distance of the institution that is Christianity. American Christians, and Christian America, have given more charity and aid, then all secular atheist countries, combined. I think your charges against evangelicals is misplaced.

If I'm unclear, I'll be more then happy to flesh things out for you, and walk you through it. But don't dismiss my ideas when you haven't been able to address any of them. All you do is use my posts as a platform to respond, not dealing with the things I write, but dismissing me entirely, and leveling charges of your own against Christianity and Conservatism.

[marketandchurch]

....
I don't know why you see my calling of leftism, a religion, as an attack. It should be viewed as either true, or untrue, and if untrue, you are more then welcome to debate your side of things. Which you haven't... other then to dismiss me and my arguments, every step of the way.

I don't mind rhetoric when it is accompanied with substance. I need a little more substance Danmark... and for you to deal with the issues I raise, otherwise I'll assume you have no intention of meaningful dialogue. But to dismiss people who challenge your faith in leftism.

Where to start, when you cobble together so many inaccurate statements and projections? So let's just take an obvious one. Your calling 'Leftism' a religion is just an inaccurate use of language. You even admitted you were wrong to claim it was. I guess you are now back to your original position that some political position you think exists is somehow a religion. Fine. But you are projecting when you claim I see it as an attack. I was merely correcting your poor use of words and labels as a substitute for analysis.

Then you whine about substance and that your arguments are not taken seriously. The simplistic marriage of religious fundamentalism with the politics of the right combined with denial of the reality of science and the discipline of economics is just that: too simplistic and a way to avoid actually analyzing facts. It results in the American Taliban. And no, it is does not merit being taken seriously, except as a threat to the freedom and prosperity of us all.

The classic example of this is when the Tea Party wing of the GOP successfully bullied Congress to delay raising the debt ceiling until the financial markets lost faith and down graded U.S. debt instruments. Whether it is economics or religion, the American Taliban has simple ideological solutions to everything and those solutions are not just wrong, they make things worse.

You prove my point that Leftists dismiss those they disagree with, instead of grappling with the things they put forward: view post here. Are you philosophically inept that you can't address the issues I bring up, head on, without retorting to some dismissal of the Right, or dismissing my personhood in some regard?

• We on the Right are to be Dismissed, and Described. But never Answered.

Rhetoric can only carry you so far. I can lower myself down to the same level and talk about how the Left is in charge of every American ghetto, and intentionally fails hispanics and blacks to keep them dependent on Leftist government officials who have failed them for generations... but I don't. Because I've put forth before you some pretty good ideas, ideas that have substance, that a true intellectual would salivate to deconstruct, and criticize.

I need depth Danmark. I need substance. Some integrity would be nice. And maybe a little intellectual honesty. And don't reframe the light in which we are to see your original comments about my defining Leftism as a religion. It wasn't just a linguistic bastardization on my part that caused your knee-jerk response.