Once saved, always saved?

[juliod]

A friend of mine asserted that "most" chrsitians believe in "once saved, always saved". I suggested he was just projecting his own doctrine, since I don't get the feeling from the debate forums that this doctrine in very widespread.

So the question is, for you christian types, do you adhere to "once saved, always saved", and if so, doesn't that imply that once saved you can go out and commit as many sins as you want?

DanZ

[ENIGMA]

From what I've seen, most are Once Saved Always Saved, but the ideas behind it vary:

1) Eternal Security: Once you are Saved, you are guaranteed a spot in Heaven regardless of your acts.

2) Eternal Insecurity: If, after you are alledgedly Saved, you do bad things then you weren't Saved to begin with, so you're screwed.

I'm thinking that the message varies based on audience and theology.

[juliod]

Let me get this straight. None of the christians here have an opinion on this issue?

Should I post a related question: "Do christians either know or care about their own doctrine?"

DanZ

[HughDP]

A Christian friend of mine referred me to John 10:24-30, which states:


24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

For which he risked a stoning (Jesus, not my Christian friend).

And John 3:16


16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


My friend certainly sees it as 'once saved always saved', but points out that only God can know if someone believes enough in their heart and is 'truly' saved. As one can never proclaim themselves saved without God's say-so, one has to keep up the good work throughout life just to be sure.

[harvey1]

A friend of mine asserted that "most" chrsitians believe in "once saved, always saved". I suggested he was just projecting his own doctrine, since I don't get the feeling from the debate forums that this doctrine in very widespread. So the question is, for you christian types, do you adhere to "once saved, always saved", and if so, doesn't that imply that once saved you can go out and commit as many sins as you want?

There is an ontic response and an epistemic response to this question:

Ontic response: Once we are saved it means literally that God looks into the future and sees that person as being in the Kingdom of God at the end of time. The future cannot change, and this person is and always will be saved throughout their physical life as a Christian.

Epistemic response: We do not have God's omniscience, so we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling realizing that we could be one of those who turns back and who will not fulfill the promises the day we let Christ in our life.

[redstang281]

A friend of mine asserted that "most" chrsitians believe in "once saved, always saved". I suggested he was just projecting his own doctrine, since I don't get the feeling from the debate forums that this doctrine in very widespread.

It seems to be to me the only logical conclusion. According to the Bible our salvation has to do with what Christ did and not ourselves. Our salvation is not based on the specific actions of our lives. The faith that we have in Jesus sacrifice is converted into the righteousness that God requires that we are unable to do ourselves.

Because the value of Jesus is so precious, the sacrifice he gave is also precious. To imply that someone who is cleansed by his sacrifice can do something to forfeit that cleansing is to imply that Jesus's blood is less powerful then sin.

Romans 4:5 - But to him not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

So the question is, for you christian types, do you adhere to "once saved, always saved", and if so, doesn't that imply that once saved you can go out and commit as many sins as you want?

Being forgiven is not the only thing that happens to you when you accept Jesus. Understand that the act of being saved also implies you have given yourself to God and given him permission to change you. That being said, the result of being saved is also an increasing desire not to sin.

Romans 6:22 - But now, being made free from sin, and having become slaves to God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end everlasting life.

2 Corinthians 5:17 - So that if any one is in Christ, that one is a new creature; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

[McCulloch]

According to the Bible our salvation has to do with what Christ did and not ourselves. Our salvation is not based on the specific actions of our lives. The faith that we have in Jesus sacrifice is converted into the righteousness that God requires that we are unable to do ourselves.
Because the value of Jesus is so precious, the sacrifice he gave is also precious. To imply that someone who is cleansed by his sacrifice can do something to forfeit that cleansing is to imply that Jesus's blood is less powerful then sin.

Then it looks as if he has done a poor job. Didn't Jesus himself predict that the majority would be lost?

Being forgiven is not the only thing that happens to you when you accept Jesus. Understand that the act of being saved also implies you have given yourself to God and given him permission to change you. That being said, the result of being saved is also an increasing desire not to sin.

Isn't the act of giving yourself to God something that is an action of your own life? Therefore, by your own reasoning, it cannot be the basis for salvation. Do you agree, then with those who teach that those who have fallen away were never truly saved in the first place?

[redstang281]

According to the Bible our salvation has to do with what Christ did and not ourselves. Our salvation is not based on the specific actions of our lives. The faith that we have in Jesus sacrifice is converted into the righteousness that God requires that we are unable to do ourselves.
Because the value of Jesus is so precious, the sacrifice he gave is also precious. To imply that someone who is cleansed by his sacrifice can do something to forfeit that cleansing is to imply that Jesus's blood is less powerful then sin.

Then it looks as if he has done a poor job. Didn't Jesus himself predict that the majority would be lost?

You're not automatically cleansed. Only those who accept Jesus as their savior will be cleansed. So the prediction Jesus made is accurate.

Being forgiven is not the only thing that happens to you when you accept Jesus. Understand that the act of being saved also implies you have given yourself to God and given him permission to change you. That being said, the result of being saved is also an increasing desire not to sin.

Isn't the act of giving yourself to God something that is an action of your own life? [/quote]

Yes, it is. But it is natural result of first possessing faith in Christ as Lord and savior.

Therefore, by your own reasoning, it cannot be the basis for salvation. Do you agree, then with those who teach that those who have fallen away were never truly saved in the first place?

If you mean apostate then yes I agree.

[McCulloch]

Being forgiven is not the only thing that happens to you when you accept Jesus. Understand that the act of being saved also implies you have given yourself to God and given him permission to change you. That being said, the result of being saved is also an increasing desire not to sin.

Isn't the act of giving yourself to God something that is an action of your own life?

Yes, it is. But it is natural result of first possessing faith in Christ as Lord and savior.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

In this quote, the it in "it is the gift of God", does that refer to grace, salvation or faith? Is Paul saying, "Grace is a gift from God"; "Faith is a gift from God" or "Salvation is a gift from God"? If faith is a gift from God, and salvation is entirely dependent on God, then logically you must hold the Calvinist position that God, arbitrarily chooses the elect for salvation and condemns the damned, even though he could have saved them by giving them faith. If you reject Calvinism, then salvation is dependant on the individual's decision, that of "giving oneself to God".

Therefore, by your own reasoning, it cannot be the basis for salvation. Do you agree, then with those who teach that those who have fallen away were never truly saved in the first place?

If you mean apostate then yes I agree.

Thank you for clarifying that. Yes, I did mean someone who has heard the gospel, apparently accepted it and appeared to be a Christian for a significant period of time and subsequently denied Christ. Your position is that such a person could not have had genuine faith.

[redstang281]

Being forgiven is not the only thing that happens to you when you accept Jesus. Understand that the act of being saved also implies you have given yourself to God and given him permission to change you. That being said, the result of being saved is also an increasing desire not to sin.

Isn't the act of giving yourself to God something that is an action of your own life?

Yes, it is. But it is natural result of first possessing faith in Christ as Lord and savior.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

In this quote, the it in "it is the gift of God", does that refer to grace, salvation or faith? Is Paul saying, "Grace is a gift from God"; "Faith is a gift from God" or "Salvation is a gift from God"? If faith is a gift from God, and salvation is entirely dependent on God, then logically you must hold the Calvinist position that God, arbitrarily chooses the elect for salvation and condemns the damned, even though he could have saved them by giving them faith. If you reject Calvinism, then salvation is dependant on the individual's decision, that of "giving oneself to God".

I believe all three are the gift. For Eph 2:8 I'm not sure which one it specifically is referring to as the gift, but I would suspect it is salvation as a whole. However, if it is just faith, either way the net result is the same.

Grace is the force of God that saves us and faith is how he applies it to us. The analogy I think of is an electric cord being plugged into a wall outlet. God is the outlet, faith is the cord, and grace is the electricity.

I agree with some aspects of calvinism, but not necessarily all.

I'd like to point out that what may seem arbitrary from our perspective is not that way from God's.

Therefore, by your own reasoning, it cannot be the basis for salvation. Do you agree, then with those who teach that those who have fallen away were never truly saved in the first place?

If you mean apostate then yes I agree.

Thank you for clarifying that. Yes, I did mean someone who has heard the gospel, apparently accepted it and appeared to be a Christian for a significant period of time and subsequently denied Christ. Your position is that such a person could not have had genuine faith.

Correct, they were just a professing Christian but not a true Christian.