Can we really go to heaven?

Mr. Splib · Post by **Mr. Splib** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:10 am

This is my first post. A friend suddenly passed away and at his funeral service the pastor's message turned on a light for me. He described heaven and God as "pure." Only those who accepted Jesus as their savior could have their sins wiped away by his sacrifice and enter heaven as pure. But here is where I saw what can only be described as a "flaw" in this logic.

Most people envision a version of themselves entering heaven. Whether its with wings, with a halo, or whatever, I believe they see themselves entering heaven as the person they are now. If heaven is pure, then it is impossible for us to enter as ourselves. It is our thoughts, emotions, and desires as people that make us impure. We cannot be allowed to enter as we are. All humans are sinners. Letting us into heaven as we are makes heaven impure. What we are has to be wiped away upon going into heaven. Wiping away our emotions makes us cease to exist as the unique individuals we are now. What are we then in heaven?

My point is that we have to become completely different in heaven. The people we love and care about during our earthly lives won't be any more special to us in heaven than every other soul we meet since all of our uniqueness has to be washed away.

Mr. Splib

wotsupdoc · Post by **wotsupdoc** » Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:10 pm

[Replying to post 30 by Tired of the Nonsense]

A fable is a story which is not founded on fact. Can you enlighten us as to where even the Bible makes any such claim? And if it's not even in the Bible, doesn't that mean that you have simply assumed it into existence?

You have called it a fable so you must have some evidence for this. If you don't you are lying and I don't have to provide evidence for something based on a lie.

Tired of the Nonsense · Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:55 am

wotsupdoc wrote: You have called it a fable so you must have some evidence for this. If you don't you are lying and I don't have to provide evidence for something based on a lie.

I simply asked what your source was for the story of Lucifer and the fallen angels. If the story is not founded on any sort of a factual account, then is is a fable. So, what is the source of the story?

wotsupdoc · Post by **wotsupdoc** » Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:08 pm

[Replying to post 32 by Tired of the Nonsense]

I simply asked what your source was for the story of Lucifer and the fallen angels. If the story is not founded on any sort of a factual account, then is is a fable. So, what is the source of the story?

Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle. You made the claim it was a fable so prove it.

Tired of the Nonsense · Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:06 pm

Tired of the Nonsense wrote:
I simply asked what your source was for the story of Lucifer and the fallen angels. If the story is not founded on any sort of a factual account, then is a fable. So, what is the source of the story?

wotsupdoc wrote: Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle. You made the claim it was a fable so prove it.

faÂ·ble [fey-buhl] verb, faÂ·bled, faÂ·bling. noun
1. a short tale to teach a moral lesson, often with animals or inanimate objects as characters.
2. a story not founded on fact.
3. a story about supernatural or extraordinary persons or incidents; legend: the fables of gods and heroes.
4. legends or myths collectively: the heroes of Greek fable.
5. an untruth; falsehood: This boast of a cure is a medical fable.

If you propose the truth of a story but will not provide the source of the story or evidence to support the story, then there is every reason to suppose that the story is not founded on fact or that it is an untruth and a falsehood. Especially when the claims deal with supernatural or extraordinary characters or events. A fable in this case. Something you simply declared to be true. And you have been called on it. Which is the nature of debate. Claims which you will not defend leave you with little credibility and not much reason to pay attention to you one way or the other. The heart and soul of your religious belief is the story of the resurrection. Would you care to defend that? Or are you all show and no go?

wotsupdoc · Post by **wotsupdoc** » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:51 pm

[Replying to Tired of the Nonsense]

A fable in this case. Something you simply declared to be true.

You have called it a fable so you must have some evidence for this. If you don't you are lying and I don't have to provide evidence for something based on a lie.

Tired of the Nonsense · Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:42 pm

wotsupdoc wrote: You have called it a fable so you must have some evidence for this. If you don't you are lying and I don't have to provide evidence for something based on a lie.

Actually I simply asked you from where you derived the story of Lucifer and the fallen angels. You do seem a little shaky on the details. But of course one can't prove a negative. Because it's difficult to provide genuine evidence for something that never happened. It is possible to provide evidence for something that DID happen though. Sometimes. Can you provide enough reasonable evidence to establish the necessary truth of the resurrection? Or should we conclude that you simply do not possess the courage of your convictions and leave you alone?

wotsupdoc · Post by **wotsupdoc** » Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:21 pm

[Replying to post 36 by Tired of the Nonsense]

Actually I simply asked you from where you derived the story of Lucifer and the fallen angels

Actually you said it was a fable so prove it.

Tired of the Nonsense · Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:43 am

Tired of the Nonsense wrote:
Actually I simply asked you from where you derived the story of Lucifer and the fallen angels

wotsupdoc wrote: Actually you said it was a fable so prove it.

Here is what I first posted to you in this string:

"A fable is a story which is not founded on fact. Can you enlighten us as to where even the Bible makes any such claim? And if it's not even in the Bible, doesn't that mean that you have simply assumed it into existence?"

Apparently however you are not entirely certain of what it is you think you believe and would rather evade having to provide any answers.

wotsupdoc · Post by **wotsupdoc** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 1:17 am

[Replying to Tired of the Nonsense]

Apparently however you are not entirely certain of what it is you think you believe and would rather evade having to provide any answers.

Just following your example.
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Mark 16:6 The man said, "Don't be alarmed! You are looking for Jesus from Nazareth, who was nailed to a cross. God has raised him to life, and he isn't here. You can see the place where they put his body.

Tired of the Nonsense · Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:06 am

wotsupdoc wrote:
Mark 16:6 The man said, "Don't be alarmed! You are looking for Jesus from Nazareth, who was nailed to a cross. God has raised him to life, and he isn't here. You can see the place where they put his body.

That's interesting. Because you know what Matthew 27 has to say?

[62] Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
[63] Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
[64] Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.

And what do you think happened? The body of Jesus turned up missing and a few weeks later his disciples began spreading the rumor of his resurrection from the dead. Just as the priests predicted. Imagine that!