Threat or Warning? Moral or Immoral?

[A Troubled Man]

I'm not threatening you, I'm giving you some good advice. Take it or leave it.

...God created both heaven and hell. Those who put their faith in Him will go to heaven, those who reject Him will go to hell. Yes, I believe God is moral in everything He does, so that would include in creating both hell and heaven.

Is the "advice" we get from believers threats or warnings regarding Heaven and Hell?

Is it moral or immoral for believers to reiterate their "advice" to others?

Would you conclude the "advice" is reason to reject any religion that offers it?

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 9 by Philbert]

Hi Philbert - Bust Nak seems willing to engage my argument. If you do engage my argument then I'll try to reply but if it is mostly answered with Bust Nak I can't promise it.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 10 by Bust Nak]

There are alternatives, sustaining the material world as he is doing now indefinitely for example.

Sustaining evil for ever would mean God was evil.

But that is exactly what God is doing right now this very moment. Do you want to rationalise God as good?

Ultimately God will separate good and evil. For now we put up with evil so more can be saved by grace like I was.

But that is not analogous to the situration here. The accurate analogy would be "warning" someone to move, and if they don't you'll drop a piano on them.

I'm actually not sure that changes the equation. Warning people to change from their evil is what a good merciful God would do. Eventually for God to be good the 'piano' has to drop on evil. It seems like a logical statement to me.

We do this all the time in society. We arrest a juvenile and give them a lighter sentence or a warning. But if they don't change one day the law drops on them in full.

[10CC]

Warning people to change from their evil is what a good merciful God would do

And a just god would be capable of recognising the evil people from the non evil people. A just god would not consider a disbelief in it's existence as EVIL.

[A Troubled Man]

Hell seems to me a logically necessary fact of a loving God existing that creates free willed creatures and those creatures choosing not God.

So, God creates free will and then punishes those for eternity who use their free will, how is that loving?

imagine a parent who says he loves you and then knowingly lets a peadophile live with you.

That isn't the same thing at all. It's more like a parent who sets you free to live your life as you choose, but then puts a gun to your head if you don't choose to worship, serve and praise them your entire life.

i believe in hell like i believe i should warn someone when a piano is about to fall on them.

Again, that isn't even remotely the same thing. If it was, then God would have a massive warehouse of pianos in which He is dropping on everyone, right after telling them to go ahead and walk on the street.

if asking them to move is a fallacy then i submit the definition of the fallacy needs some work.

The fallacy is in the explanation and works just fine.

From the wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_baculum

An ad baculum argument is fallacious when the punishment is not meaningfully related to the conclusion being drawn. Many ad baculum arguments are not fallacies.[1] For example:
If you drive while drunk, you will be put in jail.
You want to avoid going to jail.
Therefore you should not drive while drunk.
This is called a non-fallacious ad baculum.

Then, based on your logic, using the free will your God gave us is the same as driving drunk. If God didn't want us to use free will, why did He give it to us?

[A Troubled Man]

Warning people to change from their evil is what a good merciful God would do. Eventually for God to be good the 'piano' has to drop on evil. It seems like a logical statement to me.

Using free will to live one's life as they see fit does not mean they have chosen a life of evil, they may very well live their lives doing good deeds and being upstanding citizens in society. Why should they be punished for an eternity in Hell? What did they ever do to deserve that punishment?

We do this all the time in society. We arrest a juvenile and give them a lighter sentence or a warning. But if they don't change one day the law drops on them in full.

Your analogy fails if because you equate free will to evil, yet God gave us free will and the ability to use it.

[Wootah]

Warning people to change from their evil is what a good merciful God would do

And a just god would be capable of recognising the evil people from the non evil people. A just god would not consider a disbelief in it's existence as EVIL.

We are all evil / have sinned. Easily recognisable.

[A Troubled Man]

We are all evil / have sinned. Easily recognisable.

We are not evil, we are compassionate and altruistic by nature.

If you believe you are evil, then you will begin behaving that way.

[Goat]

Warning people to change from their evil is what a good merciful God would do

And a just god would be capable of recognising the evil people from the non evil people. A just god would not consider a disbelief in it's existence as EVIL.

We are all evil / have sinned. Easily recognisable.

Now, this is one of the reasons I find much of Christianity to be highly negative. I find that attitude to be disturbing, and a manipulative technique to pull in people with poor self image.
Sorry, but at least my immediate family, and many of my friends are not evil. As for sin, it all depends on how you define it. Many definitions.. and I don't agree with most of them

[10CC]

Warning people to change from their evil is what a good merciful God would do

And a just god would be capable of recognising the evil people from the non evil people. A just god would not consider a disbelief in it's existence as EVIL.

We are all evil / have sinned. Easily recognisable.

What a terribly sad thing to say, I really do pity the people who have accepted this type of indoctrination. Of course you can't not sin so you can't not be evil no matter how hard either you or you and your god try, that's also a large part of your indoctrination. So this merciful god telling people to change from their evil ways is deliberately misleading the people he knows perfectly well can't change from their evil ways even with his help. Merciful Liar perhaps.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 14 by A Troubled Man]

So, God creates free will and then punishes those for eternity who use their free will, how is that loving?

Way too vague a statement. If you had the power to give free will to say 10 creatures and one of them started trying to kill the other 9 would you stop it?

That isn't the same thing at all. It's more like a parent who sets you free to live your life as you choose, but then puts a gun to your head if you don't choose to worship, serve and praise them your entire life.

That is your opinion but in my opinion it is not the best interpretation of the evidence. The gun to the head is the logically necessity of God being good.

Assume you are good. You see a guy try to rob someone - what do you do? Allow it or stop it. It's that simple to understand that a good God will stop evil.

Then, based on your logic, using the free will your God gave us is the same as driving drunk. If God didn't want us to use free will, why did He give it to us?

I don't understand you analogy. There is still a lot of actions that we can take.