A Good God would not send a decent Atheist to hell.

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marketandchurch
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A Good God would not send a decent Atheist to hell.

Post #1

Post by marketandchurch »

This was the post that got me banned on Christian Chat:
Then God doesn't care about the goodness and decency of an atheist, a buddhist, etc. And if that is the message you are telling me, then there is no point to being a good person. There is no point of fighting on behalf of the oppressed, as America did, in WWII. The only purpose of fighting the Japanese, and beating back the Nazi's should have been so that we could bring more people to christ...is that what your saying? Should America be sending food and aid to heathens in Haiti? Should America be helping out muslims in disaster relief fallowing a natural disaster, unless it is to bring them to Christ? Is a person's only value to you, there potential to become a convert? They have no humanity beyond that?

You have an old testament my_adonai, and you are to be as obsessed with its obsessions, as you are with the new testament's. And the Old Testament's preoccupation is fighting evil, championing the good, and making a more ethical existence, during this lifetime.

And unless you think Christians alone can make this lifetime a little better, a little less genocidal, with a little less starvation, a little less torture, etc, it is an unethical message to peddle, that a good God would demand goodness, unless one doesn't believe in his son. Then one's goodness is pointless. One might as well not care about not gossiping behind other people's back, destroying someone's dignity in public, sleeping with a coworker's wife, extorting an elderly couple that one was hired to help, raping a pre-pubcescent child, killing another human being because of their skin color, etc, etc, etc.

Apparently, I was challenging people's faith, and was just there to be anti-christian, in saying that a Good God would not send to hell decent people, simply because they do not believe in his Son. I got all sorts of less then appetizing replies, saying I'm screwed for eternity, if I don't accept Jesus. I feel that I am not alone, even within the Christian community, in thinking this as I've heard many catholic priests, and mainstream protestant pastors, while I was growing up, distancing themselves from such a belief. I don't know where people on this forum stand, but I'll put it up for debate:

  • Topic of Debate: A Good God would not send to hell a decent person, simply for not believing in his son.


If you agree with me, and are a Christian, please square your response with the rest of the New Testament. What I'm looking for is scriptural consistency to back up your position, and more importantly, how one will then re-read the entire message of the New Testament, if one wants to hold that position. I say this because I don't want you to drop scripture, simply because it doesn't conform to your own personal beliefs, but I am looking for how one can reinterpret the New testament, if one drops that central tenant, & for the rest of us, impediment, to everlasting life. Is there room for this? Or is the New Testament rigidly in the affirmative about Christ being the only way to heaven? Which is fine. That's their theology, but let's see where this goes.

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Re: A Good God would not send a decent Atheist to hell.

Post #241

Post by Nickman »

Theodore A. Jones wrote: [Replying to post 233 by pokeegeorge]

I don't think I've said to you that you are guilty of the Lord's murder have I? Re read the post. The sin you are guilty of, however, is the refusal to confess directly to God that you are truly sorry his only begotten son was murdered by crucifying him. And that refusal is a violation of a law that does carry the penalty of eternal death. Don't be so condescendingly smug. For your very life depends upon your faith to resolve the sin of the Lord's murder by your obedience of that law which demands your compliance to his stated oath from each man, too.
Jesus wasn't murdered. He committed suicide. He said, "no man takes my life, I lay it down." Also, this was supposedly "God's plan" so it cannot be murder when God planned it. This would be the equivalent to either suicide or God hiring a hit-man to do his dirty work.

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Re: A Good God would not send a decent Atheist to hell.

Post #242

Post by Theodore A. Jones »

[Replying to Nickman]

Your assumption is not congruent with Acts 7:52 and the direct testimony of the other apostles. Suggest that you stick to what the record says.

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Re: A Good God would not send a decent Atheist to hell.

Post #243

Post by pokeegeorge »

[Replying to post 239 by Nickman]

Okay Nickman here we go:

defn suicide:

1.
the action of killing oneself intentionally.

So Jesus hung his own self up on the tree and hammered a nail into his last hand or wrist with his OTHER hand or wrist which was already nailed to the tree...

No wonder I go HEE HAW to some of your statements...

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Re: A Good God would not send a decent Atheist to hell.

Post #244

Post by DanieltheDragon »

pokeegeorge wrote: [Replying to post 239 by Nickman]

Okay Nickman here we go:

defn suicide:

1.
the action of killing oneself intentionally.

So Jesus hung his own self up on the tree and hammered a nail into his last hand or wrist with his OTHER hand or wrist which was already nailed to the tree...

No wonder I go HEE HAW to some of your statements...

If I hire a hitman to kill me is it murder or suicide ?

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Re: A Good God would not send a decent Atheist to hell.

Post #245

Post by olavisjo »

.
DanieltheDragon wrote: If I hire a hitman to kill me is it murder or suicide ?
For you it is self murder aka suicide.
For the hit man it is murder.
"I believe in no religion. There is absolutely no proof for any of them, and from a philosophical standpoint Christianity is not even the best. All religions, that is, all mythologies to give them their proper name, are merely man’s own invention..."

C.S. Lewis

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Re: A Good God would not send a decent Atheist to hell.

Post #246

Post by pokeegeorge »

[Replying to post 242 by DanieltheDragon]



I don't believe Christ is God, so there you go...

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Re: A Good God would not send a decent Atheist to hell.

Post #247

Post by Clownboat »

DanieltheDragon wrote:
pokeegeorge wrote: [Replying to post 239 by Nickman]

Okay Nickman here we go:

defn suicide:

1.
the action of killing oneself intentionally.

So Jesus hung his own self up on the tree and hammered a nail into his last hand or wrist with his OTHER hand or wrist which was already nailed to the tree...

No wonder I go HEE HAW to some of your statements...

If I hire a hitman to kill me is it murder or suicide ?
Good point.
There is also this point of view:
- My wives uncle died a couple years ago because he was standing on train tracks while there was a train coming. He had the power to move, but didn't. Family and friends called it a suicide.

- Jesus was on the tracks (on the way to the cross) so to speak, had the power to "get off the tracks", but chose not to. Is that not suicide in the same sense as it is for my wives uncle?

Sure, Jesus didn't slit his wrist or anything, he died due to his inaction. Just like my wives uncle.

When put this way, it seems reasonable to call what Jesus did suicide.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Re: A Good God would not send a decent Atheist to hell.

Post #248

Post by Nickman »

pokeegeorge wrote: [Replying to post 239 by Nickman]

Okay Nickman here we go:

defn suicide:

1.
the action of killing oneself intentionally.

So Jesus hung his own self up on the tree and hammered a nail into his last hand or wrist with his OTHER hand or wrist which was already nailed to the tree...

No wonder I go HEE HAW to some of your statements...
According to Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, there was a plan.
“My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.� “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.� Look, the hour has come, and the Son of Man is delivered into the hands of sinners. 46 Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!�

Sounds like a planned death doesn't it?

John 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I have received from my Father."

Sounds like suicide to me.

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Post #249

Post by fatherlearningtolove »

I know I'm a late comer to this thread, but the topic is near and dear to my heart as I didn't truly fall in love with God until I really started to explore another possibility to the answer to this question.

The answer to this question that I will now defend is: hell is not eternal conscious torment, and it is not the end for anyone. I defend this view in detail on my blog in the series "Checkmate for Hell".

The defense of this position is quite simple, really - so simple, that it's somewhat baffling so many intelligent Christian theologians have missed it for so long. There are three propositions which have been defended by a majority of theologians throughout history:

1. God's will is inescapable. In other words, God get's what God wants in the end. In other words, God is omnipotent/sovereign.
2. God wants all men to be saved. The negative form is that God doesn't want anyone to perish.
3. "Non believers" will end up in a place of eternal conscious torment, or possibly be annihilated. Thus, not all men will be saved.

As you can plainly see, these three propositions are logically incompatible. And yet, historically a majority of Christians have concluded with #3, but have done so by throwing out propositions 1 or 2. The first camp of theologians we will call the Calvinists, though they should really call themselves Augustinians, and they affirm propositions 1 and 3, but deny proposition 2, while not calling those who affirm it "heretics" (they're just mistaken, according to the Calvinists-who-should-really-be-called-Augustinians). The second camp we will call Arminians, and they affirm proposition 2, but believe that man's free will can ultimately escape God's will, and thus they reject proposition #1 (without calling the Calvinists-who-should-really-be-called-Augustinians heretics either - strange that both camps like to call those who throw out #3 heretics) and keep proposition #3. There is ample Biblical evidence to support both #1 and #2, which I demonstrate in the first part of my blog series (though only in part - I do not list every single reference one could provide). Furthermore, I show evidence in support of the logical conclusion that in the end, all will be saved in the first part of my blog series as well. Because of this evidence, I then call into question the passages that have been used to support the illogical conclusion of proposition #3, and find that they are based on faulty translations and misunderstandings of ancient concepts due to a lack of historical knowledge - this is defended in part 2 of my series.

This view helps one to form a much more coherent view of Christianity that avoids the frankly offensive and nonsensical proposals that say that it is impossible for an atheist to do anything good at all and undermine morality and empathy for all living beings. It also helps one to form a more compassionate understanding of the rich metaphor of salvation that avoids what I like to call the "magical incantation view of Christianity", whereby one is "saved" by saying the magical incantation called the "sinner's prayer" and dropping the right name at the end (make sure you get that name right - if you say "Buddha" or some other name, you're toast!). By the way, there is no "sinner's prayer" appearance in the Bible, and I go into detail in one my later posts in the series to explain how there are many different ways the Bible describes a person being "saved", a fact that does not mesh well with those who have this "magical incantation" view.

Furthermore, the universalist view helps one to gain a much healthier view of the purposes of evangelism. In the "magical incantation" view, the only purpose is to get people to say the incantation. That's your only goal, and once someone has said the incantation, there's really no reason to care about that person any more, as they are now "saved" and that's all that matters. But when we look at the apostle Peter's calling, we see a model of salvation that does not mesh with these views very well. Peter had three separate confessional moments. The first was when Jesus came to him and said "follow me." We don't see Jesus discussing doctrine with Peter, or demanding that Peter accept certain dogma into his head. Jesus merely said "follow me", and then took him around showing him how to show love to people - caring for the poor and outcasts and the marginalized of society, and providing for their physical needs. Then, after doing this for a while, the second confessional moment comes when Jesus asks Peter "who do you say that I am?" And Peter responds, after having worked alongside of Jesus for all this time and having experienced the reality: "you are the Christ, the Son of God!" Now, most Christian "evangelists" who believe in eternal conscious torment want to jump straight to this second confessional moment, without having ever gone through the process Jesus took Peter through of working alongside Jesus and seeing the evidence of his lordship all this time. Rather, they insist people confess the words of Peter right off the bat without any rational reason to do so, and if the person refuses, they pound fear of eternal conscious torment into them (which is a strange thing for a Christian to do in light of I John 4:18, which says that perfect love casts out fear). The third confessional moment of Peter is after he has denied Jesus, and is now sitting by the fire with him after the resurrection, and Jesus says "Peter, do you love (he uses the word agape - perfect, unconditional, infinite love) me?" Peter, after having failed with his three denials, says "Lord, you know all things - you know that I love (phileo - conveys fondness) you." Peter is admitting to his limitations. Jesus responds by saying "feed my lambs." I believe that Jesus is providing the map for one to reach a point where they can agape - rather than merely phileo - Him. I say this because what follows is that Jesus and Peter repeat the exchange a second time, with the exact same words, and then on the third time Jesus says "Peter, do you phileo me?" When Peter responds to the affirmative, Jesus once again says to feed his lambs. In this third repetition with a change, I believe Jesus is showing his acceptance of Peter's limitations, but once again repeating the command to feed the sheep - and this feeding is the path one must walk to learn agape.

In the eternal conscious torment or annihilationist views, one merely needs to know what the minimum of what they must do is in order to avoid such a horrid fate. But in the universalist view, the path of love IS salvation itself. Love is an infinite loop whereby one accepts God's love and pours it out upon those around, and one does not truly accept grace if grace is not freely given in return.

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Post #250

Post by pokeegeorge »

[Replying to post 247 by fatherlearningtolove]

Universalists put words in addition to the Word. That is to say, "No need to fear God,
he will save us all, after we get our spankings...."

This is because Universalists think the Fear of God is bad, when actually it is the beginning of wisdom and part and parcel of repentance.

I say there is reason to Fear God, and that is why I am wiser.

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