Was Jesus a great teacher?

[McCulloch]

Christianity's biggest strength is the teachings of Jesus. They're the very foundation of Christianity. Jesus was a great teacher and being a Christian myself, I see no one who has ever topped Him, nor have I found any of His teachings too difficult to defend.

Questions for debate:
Was Jesus a great teacher? Are all of his teachings easy to defend? Is there anything that he could have made clearer? Did he make mistakes? Did he leave out anything important? How could he have improved as a teacher?

[pokeegeorge]

[Replying to post 168 by 10CC]

Regarding the OT rape law...



In a close-knit community whereby the bride especially has no choice in marriage, this one is not so heinous. I see the problem this law would have in modern-view, but in that day it forced the victimizer to take responsibility.

And too, we don't know all that is going on, the couple can actually appeal TO this law if they are in love and are in love so much they would risk the stigma of shame in order to be together.

Ever think of that?

[pokeegeorge]

[Replying to A Troubled Man]

N/t (repeat).

[A Troubled Man]

[Replying to A Troubled Man]

Ambiguity is not the purpose of God.

Then, your argument is with Zetesis Apistia because that is exactly what he said. So, here we have two Christians telling me the exact opposite reason about the most important thing in their religion, "Gods Word".

You guys can't even get that straight, how do you expect anyone else to believe anything you say?

But our lack of understanding understandably makes most important things ambiguous.

Baloney, there are plenty of things we understand clearly and concisely, and we're just puny humans. You would think a God could at the very least make His Word to mankind also clear and concise.

All parables point to this truth or that, but only the discerner or the one told outright what the parable means will find it.

All spiritual mysteries are called such, and the Mystery of Christian Salvation offered is said to be one. To be 'reborn' is a mystery, to eat Jesus' flesh and blood is a mystery. Many fell away at hearing the latter, and many like thee will pervert the meaning to suit their taste.

Mysteries? If they're such mysteries, how is that you can tell me anything about it that is valid or credible? How can you understand or know anything about it if it is mystery? Why would anyone want to bank their entire lives on a mystery? That makes no sense.

If you don't like the taste, just say so. Any more expounding is just subjective opinion. A true investigator will investigate. Most will just go with what they already think they know.

Can you not see that is exactly what I'm doing and why I'm responding to you? That I am indeed investigating your religion and your beliefs? But, all you folks can do is provide contradictions and disagreements on many of the most important aspects of your religion. A true investigator doesn't even have to try very hard to see his bs alarms ringing loudly when believers try to explain what they think they know.

[pokeegeorge]

Replying to A Troubled Man[/url]]

Ambiguity is not the purpose of God.

Then, your argument is with Zetesis Apistia because that is exactly what he said. So, here we have two Christians telling me the exact opposite reason about the most important thing in their religion, "Gods Word".

You guys can't even get that straight, how do you expect anyone else to believe anything you say?

[/quote]

We do not agree on a lesser truth. So what? I am not asking you to accept ANYTHING I say just to consider...

But our lack of understanding understandably makes most important things ambiguous.

Baloney, there are plenty of things we understand clearly and concisely, and we're just puny humans. You would think a God could at the very least make His Word to mankind also clear and concise.

Certain things are very clear and very concise. Other things not. But this has more to do with US and less to do with a God that is unclear...

If the purpose of life is clarity, then will all start out CLEAR? To borrow a term from Scientology here...

All parables point to this truth or that, but only the discerner or the one told outright what the parable means will find it.

All spiritual mysteries are called such, and the Mystery of Christian Salvation offered is said to be one. To be 'reborn' is a mystery, to eat Jesus' flesh and blood is a mystery. Many fell away at hearing the latter, and many like thee will pervert the meaning to suit their taste.

Mysteries? If they're such mysteries, how is that you can tell me anything about it that is valid or credible? How can you understand or know anything about it if it is mystery? Why would anyone want to bank their entire lives on a mystery? That makes no sense.

If that Mystery points to eternal life and I WANT this, then the Mystery of Eternal Life must be solved.

'Cmon now, this is pretty universal conceptualization for many religions...

If you don't like the taste, just say so. Any more expounding is just subjective opinion. A true investigator will investigate. Most will just go with what they already think they know.

Can you not see that is exactly what I'm doing and why I'm responding to you? That I am indeed investigating your religion and your beliefs? But, all you folks can do is provide contradictions and disagreements on many of the most important aspects of your religion. A true investigator doesn't even have to try very hard to see his bs alarms ringing loudly when believers try to explain what they think they know.

[/quote]

I never said the Mysteries are easy or immediately comprehensible. You want me to smooth your path? Here is how: ask God yourself. And again if He don't answer.

[Divine Insight]

Replying to A Troubled Man[/url]]

Ambiguity is not the purpose of God.

Then, your argument is with Zetesis Apistia because that is exactly what he said. So, here we have two Christians telling me the exact opposite reason about the most important thing in their religion, "Gods Word".

You guys can't even get that straight, how do you expect anyone else to believe anything you say?

We do not agree on a lesser truth. So what? I am not asking you to accept ANYTHING I say just to consider...

The fundamental problem is that neither one of you can be right concerning this truth. And neither is this truth a lesser truth. On the contrary it's a major truth, and either way it disproves the Biblical God.

If the God is intentionally ambiguous as Zetesis Apistia suggests. Then it would be a deceitful and untrustworthy God. Especially if this God is going to condemn people for merely not believing in highly ambiguous stuff.

On the other than, if pokeegeorge is correct and ambiguity is not the purpose of God, then this God would have failed miserably since the Bible is indeed extremely ambiguous which cannot be denied. Just look at all the disagreeing sects of this religion from Judaism, to Islam, to Catholicism, to the myriad of disagreeing forms of Christianity.

If we can know with absolute certainly of anything we can indeed know that this religion is ambiguous as a religion can possibly be.

So if Zetesis Apistia is right this God is extremely untrustworthy and deceitful. and if pokeegeorge is right that this God did not intend to be ambiguous, then this God is extreme inept and unable to prevent things from becoming ambiguous when it was not his will for them to be ambiguous.

So neither case is any better than the other. They both lead to the obvious truth that these fables have to be false. Because it makes no sense that an all-righteous God would be deceitful and underhanded, and it make no sense that an omnipotent omniscient God would be inept.

So both arguments lose anyway.

There is no way to support these myths as being anything other than man-made superstitious nonsense.

And once they are recognized to be superstitious nonsense then they have been 100% completely explained with nothing left unexplained. What better solution could a person ask for?

Recognizing that they are totally made-up superstitious myths explains everything.

And there are no mysteries left. What could be simpler? Think about Occam's Razor. Recognize the Hebrew fables to be myths and you've explained them away entirely.

[A Troubled Man]

Certain things are very clear and very concise. Other things not. But this has more to do with US and less to do with a God that is unclear...

That is baloney. There is no reason to not make everything clear and concise. It simply makes no sense to warrant mystery with something so important as Gods Word.

If that Mystery points to eternal life and I WANT this, then the Mystery of Eternal Life must be solved.

What does that have to do with anything? Word salad.

I never said the Mysteries are easy or immediately comprehensible. You want me to smooth your path? Here is how: ask God yourself. And again if He don't answer.

Okay, produce your God so I can ask Him. I'm sure to recognize Him when He shows up, yes?

[Zetesis Apistia]

The thing is, he made it ambiguous on purpose. The enemies of the gospel would spin things like, "and Jesus drank water because he was thirsty". So making everything simple wouldn't matter.

That has to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, God deliberately makes His word ambiguous on purpose, not to get a clear and concise message to the people, but instead because He doesn't want His enemies to spin the message.

Where the hell is the logic in that?

God reveals himself through his word to people that earnestly want to know. There are many people don't want God to exist consequently they would not be convinced if it were as simple as see spot run. Therefore God designed it in such a way as to reveal himself to his friends while confusing the enemy. Quite brilliant if you ask me.


Matt 13: 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

[Nickman]

The thing is, he made it ambiguous on purpose. The enemies of the gospel would spin things like, "and Jesus drank water because he was thirsty". So making everything simple wouldn't matter.

That has to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, God deliberately makes His word ambiguous on purpose, not to get a clear and concise message to the people, but instead because He doesn't want His enemies to spin the message.

Where the hell is the logic in that?

God reveals himself through his word to people that earnestly want to know. There are many people don't want God to exist consequently they would not be convinced if it were as simple as see spot run. Therefore God designed it in such a way as to reveal himself to his friends while confusing the enemy. Quite brilliant if you ask me.


Matt 13: 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

But some other Christian will interpret it another way than you and claim that the HS gave them knowledge. You will say the HS gave you the understanding and someone else will say differently. Jesus said he would send another comforter (not a blanket) to guide his followers. However, this HS has done a lousy job. You would think that it would mediate to every true believer the exact message contained within. Instead this has caused more ambiguity and confusion. 30,000 denominations of ambiguity and confusion.

[Zetesis Apistia]

The thing is, he made it ambiguous on purpose. The enemies of the gospel would spin things like, "and Jesus drank water because he was thirsty". So making everything simple wouldn't matter.

That has to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, God deliberately makes His word ambiguous on purpose, not to get a clear and concise message to the people, but instead because He doesn't want His enemies to spin the message.

Where the hell is the logic in that?

God reveals himself through his word to people that earnestly want to know. There are many people don't want God to exist consequently they would not be convinced if it were as simple as see spot run. Therefore God designed it in such a way as to reveal himself to his friends while confusing the enemy. Quite brilliant if you ask me.


Matt 13: 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

But some other Christian will interpret it another way than you and claim that the HS gave them knowledge. You will say the HS gave you the understanding and someone else will say differently. Jesus said he would send another comforter (not a blanket) to guide his followers. However, this HS has done a lousy job. You would think that it would mediate to every true believer the exact message contained within. Instead this has caused more ambiguity and confusion. 30,000 denominations of ambiguity and confusion.

The bible says that there is an enemy that makes every effort to confuse us...

2nd Cor 4: 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So it isn't just that God made it ambiguous to confuse us, but that Satan uses the ambiguity to his advantage. With a devil that makes every attempt to confuse it I don't see how simplicity would have eliminated to possibility of confusion. Like I said before, our constitution is pretty plain but for some reason alot of people have a hard time with it.

[Nickman]

The bible says that there is an enemy that makes every effort to confuse us...

2nd Cor 4: 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So it isn't just that God made it ambiguous to confuse us, but that Satan uses the ambiguity to his advantage. With a devil that makes every attempt to confuse it I don't see how simplicity would have eliminated to possibility of confusion. Like I said before, our constitution is pretty plain but for some reason alot of people have a hard time with it.

Simplicity always eliminates confusion. That is why we create checklists, manuals, work instructions, and the like. Every person can buy a desk at Walmart and follow the directions and have a desk by the end of the day. It is only when the directions are unclear and pieces are missing that we run into trouble. This is how the bible works. It is like a repackaged desk at Walmart that someone returned with several missing pieces and a page ripped out of the directions.