Moral objective values...

[whisperit]

[font=Verdana]In one of his papers, Dr. William Lane Craig (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lane_Craig) argues moral objective values is to say something is right or wrong independently of whether anybody believes it to be so. If God does not exist, what is the foundation for moral objective values?[/font][/url]

[whisperit]

If God was not the guiding force behind evolution, what are objective moral values based on?

[Divine Insight]

If God was not the guiding force behind evolution, what are objective moral values based on?

Where is there any evidence that any objective morality exists?

Where was there any morality in the universe before humans?

Before humans animals just ate each other freely as food. They still do this to this very day even sometimes attacking and possibly eating humans.

Before humans disease just infected any animals it could with absolutely no sense of morality. Diseases still behave this way today even infecting humans.

Before humans natural disasters killed innocent animals without any evidence of morality at all. Natural disasters still behave this way today, even killing humans.

So where is there any objective morality in the universe?

Morality didn't even come into being until humans invented it. It's an entirely subjective notions.

You ask what human morality is based upon.

Well, it probably started being based upon what humans typically don't like. They consider things that they don't like to be "immoral".

Would you like to be killed for no good reason? Or have someone you love killed for no good reason?

Probably not. So it makes common sense to consider it to be immoral to kill someone without good reason. Humans have historically continued to kill people when they feel they have sufficient reason, and still do to this very day.

All of human morality is a subjective invention.

It's based upon whatever humans tend to agree collectively to be "moral" or "immoral" and historically it's crystal clear that many different human cultures came up with different subjective codes of morality.

So why are you asking about objective morality when we have never seen any evidence that any such thing exists?

You'd have to show that such a thing exists before it even makes sense to talk about it.

As far as I can see there is no evidence for any objective morality. Humans to this very day continue to subjectively argue over what they personally feel should be moral or immoral conduct.

And this is even true of religious people. We even see religions that are based on the very same foundational myths coming up with totally different subjective ideas of what their scriptures have to say about morality.

So we have absolutely NO EVIDENCE that any objective morality has ever existed, and we have TONS OF EVIDENCE that all human concepts of morality are entirely subjective inventions of humans themselves.

Seems like an open and shut case to me.

[Jax Agnesson]

We haven't established yet exactly what you mean by 'objective moral values'.
You have agreed that it is possible, at least in principle, for a statement about universally-held moral vaues to be objectively true. Can you address the distinction, from your POV, between an objectively true statement about a universally held moral value, and an objectively existing moral value?

[Goat]

What is the foundation for objective moral values?

There isn't any.

Why should their be?

Morality is a human invention.

Based on what?

Based on empathy, and enlightened self interest

[Bust Nak]

In one of his papers, Dr. William Lane Craig argues moral objective values is to say something is right or wrong independently of whether anybody believes it to be so. If God does not exist, what is the foundation for moral objective values?

There isn't any foundation, moral values are subjective. I would go futher and argue that if God does exist, and right or wrong is dependently on God then envolking a divine law giver does not actually support the argument for the existence of moral objective values.

[olavisjo]

.

So we have absolutely NO EVIDENCE that any objective morality has ever existed, and we have TONS OF EVIDENCE that all human concepts of morality are entirely subjective inventions of humans themselves.

Seems like an open and shut case to me.

We have absolutely NO EVIDENCE?

Please do not insult our intelligence and the memory of so many.

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[whisperit]

[Replying to post 13 by Jax Agnesson]
I do believe subjective statements about universally-held moral values can be objectively made. William Lane Craig defines moral objective values as something being right or wrong “independently� of whether anybody believes it to be so. It is the existence in the mind of something that is independent of the mind.

If objective moral values exist independently of the mind, what is the foundation? God or evolution?

I have difficulty articulating my thoughts in writing, so I’m very slow. Sorry. I am also in the process of moving.

[whisperit]

In one of his papers, Dr. William Lane Craig argues moral objective values is to say something is right or wrong independently of whether anybody believes it to be so. If God does not exist, what is the foundation for moral objective values?

There isn't any foundation, moral values are subjective. I would go futher and argue that if God does exist, and right or wrong is dependently on God then envolking a divine law giver does not actually support the argument for the existence of moral objective values.

Of course, we have objective moral values. It is wrong to kill or to steal or to commit adultery, etc. We have God's law through the Ten Commandments. Were manmade laws formulated from the Ten Commandments? Or do objective moral values reside in some sort of collective moral consciousness residing outside of our mind as an evolutionary process?

[FarWanderer]

Assuming there was such a thing as "perfect goodness", there's no particular reason to believe that it requires any kind of personal deity. Why would it need a "foundation" deeper than itself?

[10CC]

In one of his papers, Dr. William Lane Craig argues moral objective values is to say something is right or wrong independently of whether anybody believes it to be so. If God does not exist, what is the foundation for moral objective values?

There isn't any foundation, moral values are subjective. I would go futher and argue that if God does exist, and right or wrong is dependently on God then envolking a divine law giver does not actually support the argument for the existence of moral objective values.

Of course, we have objective moral values. It is wrong to kill or to steal or to commit adultery, etc. We have God's law through the Ten Commandments. Were manmade laws formulated from the Ten Commandments? Or do objective moral values reside in some sort of collective moral consciousness residing outside of our mind as an evolutionary process?

You've just proven that those morals are not objective. They are subjective. From whence did they come? I hope you don't claim the mind of god?